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The Chess Thread - Page 123

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RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
April 20 2023 08:58 GMT
#2441
I watch sports like football and games like chess because the top players play at a level that's way beyond my level. Why would I want to watch people playing at my level?

Humans can't beat engines. But I'm hoping top players like Magnus push themselves as humanely possible to match engine play. Is that something better to root for? For humanity to improve?

Different types of games attract different types of viewers. I'm sure chess-boxing attracts many viewers. Doesn't mean the world championship should introduce rules to generate more non-chess tension and hype just to draw many viewers.
gg no re thx
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9585 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-20 09:05:12
April 20 2023 09:01 GMT
#2442
On April 20 2023 17:58 RKC wrote:
I watch sports like football and games like chess because the top players play at a level that's way beyond my level. Why would I want to watch people playing at my level?

Humans can't beat engines. But I'm hoping top players like Magnus push themselves as humanely possible to match engine play. Is that something better to root for? For humanity to improve?

Different types of games attract different types of viewers. I'm sure chess-boxing attracts many viewers. Doesn't mean the world championship should introduce rules to generate more non-chess tension and hype just to draw many viewers.

Ahh ok so by enjoying this game I'm getting in the way of the evolution of our species.
Well shit.

These guys are the best two players who could have qualified for this. People treating them as if they are two random chess streamers like the Botez sisters is insanely disrespectful.
RIP Meatloaf <3
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
April 20 2023 09:10 GMT
#2443
Please enjoy the games. I'm sure most viewers, whether casual or chess experts, are.

I'm just stating my own minority view why I don't enjoy the games so far (especially game 7). I'm just strongly defending my view, not trying to convince any of you to think like me and stop watching.

Geez, relax, watch the stream.
gg no re thx
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3843 Posts
April 20 2023 09:15 GMT
#2444
On April 20 2023 17:58 RKC wrote:
I watch sports like football and games like chess because the top players play at a level that's way beyond my level. Why would I want to watch people playing at my level?

Humans can't beat engines. But I'm hoping top players like Magnus push themselves as humanely possible to match engine play. Is that something better to root for? For humanity to improve?

Different types of games attract different types of viewers. I'm sure chess-boxing attracts many viewers. Doesn't mean the world championship should introduce rules to generate more non-chess tension and hype just to draw many viewers.


I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you think this match is comparable to your level? Just because it contains blunders? Every player blunders, sometimes it happens more often, sometimes less often. We're seeing more blunders, that doesn't take away anything from the quality of the match. You can just as well interpret it as both players having found the perfect positions to test their (apparently equally skilled) opponent to the max.

To think this is anything but exciting is to completely misunderstand the evolution of chess, which is always away from book moves for the purpose of winning more games.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9585 Posts
April 20 2023 09:15 GMT
#2445
On April 20 2023 18:10 RKC wrote:
Please enjoy the games. I'm sure most viewers, whether casual or chess experts, are.

I'm just stating my own minority view why I don't enjoy the games so far (especially game 7). I'm just strongly defending my view, not trying to convince any of you to think like me and stop watching.

Geez, relax, watch the stream.

I'm relaxed, I just find the improvement of humanity argument a bit silly personally.

Do you watch alot of 1 vs 1 sports?
I only ask because no matter what you're watching, whether its tennis, snooker, or anything that pits people 1 vs 1 in a game where psychology is important and you'll see people making mistakes in massive games. Its an integral part of these types of games.

Look up Carlsen 51: Qe6
Kasparov, Karpov, Fischer etc. These players have all made MASSIVE blunders in World Championship finals.

This game is huge for these guys because realistically its the best chance anyone's had for a very long time to win this. Its no wonder there's been a few blunders.
RIP Meatloaf <3
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-20 09:28:54
April 20 2023 09:28 GMT
#2446
Yes, top players still make mistakes. But last championship, Nepo only cracked in Game 6 in the longest game ever and both players having 'equal but imbalanced' positions due to the pieces (queen v rook + knight + pawns). Nepo hanging pieces and blundering badly only happened later.

It's true that in 1v1 sports, the player with the psychological edge usually wins. But when both players show glaring psychological weaknesses that can be easily exploited, the match doesn't seem played at a top level.

Ding freezing in Game 7 was like Magnus mouse-slipping in Armageddon and losing to Hikaru in the recent Chessable Masters. Sure, both unfortunate incidents happen because of psychological time pressure and generates a lot of buzz. But that doesn't mean we should enjoy and wish for more of such moments to decide games. I want to see less blunders in top level games whether classical or rapid. But maybe that's just me...
gg no re thx
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3843 Posts
April 20 2023 09:33 GMT
#2447
Liren froze up because Nepo tested him. Liren failed Nepo's test, and that's why he blundered and lost the game. That is what chess is about. You either pass the test or you fail it. In this match, both players have failed each other's tests more often than usual. That's literally the only difference to other high level matches.
Even Fischer has failed much simpler tests (sometimes only his own fantastical imagination) than the ones Liren has faced during this match, and Fischer was a much superior player to both Liren and Nepo.
Chess is about being tested. The only thing I see is that we've found the perfect match between two players that are both capable of testing each other's limits.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-20 09:44:25
April 20 2023 09:43 GMT
#2448
Of course all 1v1 games is a test of might - mental and psychological for chess. The fact that Ding and Nepo fail each other's tests so easily shows that they're both not very good at passing tests (but of course, one can argue that they're both super good at setting up tests of a highest level never seen before in the history of chess).

Magnus and Fabi fended off each other's tests for 12 games all ending in draws.

Same for Magnus and Nepo until the fateful Game 6 - an incredible test of resilience posed by Magnus, which Nepo failed and tilted permanently.

Yes, both Nepo and Ding are equally matched in failing each other's test. But that doesn't automatically mean that they're both playing at the highest level or even their highest potential.
gg no re thx
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3843 Posts
April 20 2023 09:51 GMT
#2449
I don't agree with the assessment that they've failed "easily". I think they both have worked very hard to accomplish this streak of wins and losses on both sides. Just because they've failed at a higher rate than usual doesn't take anything away from the quality of the games. It could instead mean that they're both being tested harder than usual. Or it could mean that this is a statistical anomaly that's nonetheless expected to happen every so often.

I think you're not giving them a fair assessment. If the test gets harder, people will also fail it more often.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-20 10:28:40
April 20 2023 10:27 GMT
#2450
Don't get me wrong, I have the deepest respects for Nepo and Ding. They are both deservingly world no 2 and 3. With Magnus abdicating the throne, there are no better candidates than them for the crown. That's what I was thinking before the tournament.

Let's put aside arguments on the quality of the games so far. Here's an interesting question - which matchup would you prefer to watch for the championship?

For me, I would go for Nepo v Fabi or Nepo v Alireza (yeah, Alireza is probably as mentally unprepared as Ding but his brilliance would provide more wild 'test' for Nepo).
gg no re thx
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
April 20 2023 10:33 GMT
#2451
Another interesting question - what do you feel about Ding's choice of Rapport as second?
gg no re thx
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3843 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-20 10:57:55
April 20 2023 10:57 GMT
#2452
Yeah I think it's an interesting discussion but I agree it's probably better to lay it to rest.

To your question, Rapport would be a personal favorite of mine, but there's a high chance that he's reached his peak. Instead I'd go with your pick of Firouzja, probably against Nepo because I think they're both still improving. Firouzja has almost endless potential and he plays the Caro which is slightly unusual at the top level.
No offense to Caruana, one of the greatest players of all time. Until a few years ago I would've put him up against anyone including Carlsen. But lately I think his game is suffering. I'm reminded of his rook blunder against Anish Giri. I really hope it's not a sign of bad health or personal problems.

Rapport being chosen as a second for Liren seems like a mix of friendship plus professional insight. There's no doubt he gives great psychological support. There are a bunch of clips of them on YT showing their close friendship during this match.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3843 Posts
April 20 2023 11:09 GMT
#2453
Regarding today's game, this position is a top candidate for the wildest ever pawn structure in a championship match.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
April 20 2023 12:26 GMT
#2454
I'm a fan of Rapport for his creativity as well. And his creativity is definitely benefitting Ding's prep. And their friendship is so endearing!

Fabi is an enigma. He seems be on a downswing. But I enjoy his podcast and insights.
gg no re thx
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4544 Posts
April 20 2023 19:21 GMT
#2455
On April 20 2023 21:26 RKC wrote:
I'm a fan of Rapport for his creativity as well. And his creativity is definitely benefitting Ding's prep. And their friendship is so endearing!

Fabi is an enigma. He seems be on a downswing. But I enjoy his podcast and insights.


So Ding and Rapport managed to get discovered with their preparation games. I hope Nepo will make a statement that he won't look at those games.
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21594 Posts
April 20 2023 19:29 GMT
#2456
On April 21 2023 04:21 0x64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2023 21:26 RKC wrote:
I'm a fan of Rapport for his creativity as well. And his creativity is definitely benefitting Ding's prep. And their friendship is so endearing!

Fabi is an enigma. He seems be on a downswing. But I enjoy his podcast and insights.


So Ding and Rapport managed to get discovered with their preparation games. I hope Nepo will make a statement that he won't look at those games.
Doesn't matter if he does or not, Ding can't take the risk.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
sertas
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden882 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-04-20 19:34:52
April 20 2023 19:34 GMT
#2457
"But hey, it's all a question of taste. I get the same quality and adrenaline from watching Magnus v Hikaru rapid games. Why waste many more hours watching Nepo v Ding playing OTB despite higher stakes?"

What are you even talking about RKC, this is way higher quality chess then magnus vs naka rapid lol.

RKC probably forgot that or didn't notice that those mass draw games matches carlsen had, could've been a lot more decisive if both sides didn't blunder away their winning positions. (It wasn't low quality either by the way, same way that this match is not low quality by any means)
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4171 Posts
April 22 2023 05:56 GMT
#2458
This prep leak drama is one of the silliest things i've ever heard.. seriously, wtf were they thinking?!

Unreal..
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18380 Posts
April 24 2023 10:42 GMT
#2459
Yeah last games will be boring
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4544 Posts
April 24 2023 10:55 GMT
#2460
On April 22 2023 14:56 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
This prep leak drama is one of the silliest things i've ever heard.. seriously, wtf were they thinking?!

Unreal..


mhmm in hindsight, sure

Information security is not their speciality, thinking it's all anonymous.

It's the kind of mistake that happens only once and you look like a fool.

Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
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