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From CNN:
Supreme Court gives two big victories for gay rights *The Supreme Court issues two key rulings affecting same-sex marriage in the U.S. *Part of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was struck down *The justices also cleared the way for same-sex marriages to resume in California after rejecting an appeal on the state's Proposition 8
Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down.
Official court argumentation.
1.Regarding the California Marriage issue http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf
Short summary
+ Show Spoiler +Hollingsworth v. Perry, 570 U.S. ___ (2013), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held that initiative sponsors do not have Article III standing to appeal an adverse decision to the appellate level.[2] As a result, the Supreme Court's ruling vacated decisions by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit and the Supreme Court of California and left in place the original decision by a district court judge from the United States District Court for the Northern District of California. That decision held that a California initiative, Proposition 8, was unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause and that the state of California's decision to deny marriage rights to same-sex couples was based solely on animus. Lawsuits challenging Proposition 8 were filed in state and federal courts nearly immediately after the initiative's passage in 2008. In Strauss v. Horton (2009), the California Supreme Court ruled that Proposition 8 was a valid enactment under California law. However, in August 2010, Judge Vaughn Walker of the United States District Court for the Northern District of California ruled that Proposition 8 violated the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. The judgment was stayed pending appeal.[3] On February 7, 2012, a divided three judge panel of the Ninth Circuit upheld the decision of the district court, though it did so on much narrower grounds than the District Court did.[4] On June 5, 2012, the Ninth Circuit denied a request for a rehearing en banc.[5] The proponents of Proposition 8 appealed the case to the U.S. Supreme Court on July 31, 2012.[6] The Supreme Court agreed to hear the case by granting a writ of certiorari on December 7, 2012. Oral arguments were heard on March 26, 2013.[7] On June 26, 2013, the Court held that the parties who had intervened to defend Proposition 8 (after the state of California declined to defend it) did not have standing. The Supreme Court remanded the case to the Ninth Circuit with instructions that the appeal be dismissed.[8] Once the Court of Appeals formally dismisses the appeal, same-sex marriage will again be legal in California. The case was previously titled Perry v. Schwarzenegger, then Perry v. Brown.[9] The case has long been regarded as a landmark case by supporters of both the plaintiffs and the defense.[10][11][12] The plaintiffs' attorneys, Theodore Olson and David Boies, were listed on the 2010 Time 100 for "their nonpartisan and strong legal approach to challenging Proposition 8"
2.Regarding the possibility of leaving inheritence for gay couples http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdf
Short summary + Show Spoiler +United States v. Windsor, 570 U.S. ___ (2013), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held that Section 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) is unconstitutional. The defendant-respondent, Edith Windsor, was the female spouse of Thea Spyer, another female whom she married in Canada in 2007 in a same-sex marriage, which the State of New York recognized as valid. Spyer died, and left Windsor everything she owned. Under federal law, a person may leave their spouse an unlimited amount without estate tax, but for any other person the limit is $3.2 million dollars. The Internal Revenue service, determining that under DOMA Windsor and Spyer were not considered married for Federal estate tax purposes, therefore the spousal exemption did not apply, and Spyer's estate owed the government US$363,053 in estate taxes. Windsor paid the tax, then sued for a refund. The trial court found the DOMA to be unconstitutional as a violation of the Fifth Amendment's equal protection clause, and ordered the government to refund the tax paid, plus interest. The government appealed. The United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit affirmed the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York's decision in Windsor v. United States, which found Section 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) unconstitutional, as it defines the term marriage as "a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife" and spouse as "a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife". In the Interim, the Attorney General of the United States informed Congress that the Obama Administration believed the statute was unconstitutional, and wouldn't defend it, but wouldn't refund the tax, thus allowing Congress to have standing to defend the suit, which it chose to do. The U.S. Supreme Court granted certiorari in December 2012 and heard oral arguments on March 27, 2013. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of Windsor on June 26, 2013, striking down Section 3 of DOMA and declaring the provision unconstitutional under the Fifth Amendment.[1]
An analysts oppinion of the inheritence issue
+ Show Spoiler +
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
Responses from supporters of the measures:
+ Show Spoiler +Bill Clinton ✔ @billclinton Today's decisions are a great step forward for #MarriageEquality. Grateful to all who fought tirelessly for this day. http://wjcf.co/19CkWRySenator Harry Reid ✔ @SenatorReid
This is progress in the truest sense of the word. A great, historic day for equality! pic.twitter.com/CCGuHowy4e Senator Patty Murray ✔ @PattyMurray
Murray: Fight continues until who a person loves or where they live no longer determines federal protections & responsibilities. #DOMA #LGBT Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga
Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching
Ricky Martin ✔ @ricky_martin
#PROP8 IS GONE! #DOMA IS GONE! #SCOTUS #LoveIsLove
Jesse Tyler Ferguson ✔ @jessetyler
Remember the old days when #DOMA was around and gay people couldn't get married in California? Crazy right!? Alicia Keys ✔ @aliciakeys
I am standing on the right side of history. I stand with @HRC for marriage equality. #SCOTUS #time4marriage Ben Affleck ✔ @BenAffleck
Big news from the Supreme Court. Goodbye #DOMA #Prop8. Hello #equality. Leonardo DiCaprio "Historic day. Well done #SCOTUS. RT @GLAAD: Supreme Court affirms that #DOMA is unconstitutional!" Michael Moore "SupremeCourt just ruled federal government canNOT make same-sex marriage illegal. Clinton's Defense of Marriage Act voided. Huge victory." Demi Lovato "Gay, straight, lesbian, bi.. No one is better than any one else. What an incredible day for California AND for equality." The Human Rights Campaign, which has pushed for LGBT equality, is declaring two "monumental victories." Here's the top of their statement: In recent years, California’s Proposition 8 and the discriminatory Defense of Marriage Act became symbols of anti-LGBT discrimination around the country and around the world. Today, both crumbled. In a watershed moment in the fight for equality, the United States Supreme Court today ruled to return marriage equality to California and to strike down DOMA. The court ruled in the Prop 8 case on procedural grounds, not reaching a decision on the merits of Prop 8 or the broader question of whether the Constitution guarantees the fundamental right to marry the person you love. Marriages in California are expected to begin again soon. While a joyous milestone, these victories nonetheless throw into sharp relief the uneven progress for LGBT people around the country—a landscape where states like California are rapidly advancing toward equality, but progress in many other places remains stagnant. Kris Perry, one of the key figures in the Proposition 8 case, said it was a victory not just for couples wanting to wed but also children. "No matter where you live, no matter who your parents are, no matter what kind of family you're in, you are equal, you are as good as your friends' parents and your friends."
She added: "We can go back to California and say to our own children - all four of our boys - your family is just as good as everybody else's family."
Responses from opponents of the measure:
+ Show Spoiler +Gov. Mike Huckabee ✔ @GovMikeHuckabee
5 people in robes said they are bigger than the voters of CA and Congress combined.And bigger than God.May He forgive us all. Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote the majority opinion. "DOMA divests married same-sex couples of the duties and responsibilities that are an essential part of married life and that they in most cases would be honored to accept were DOMA not in force," he wrote. Kennedy wrote that the law "places same-sex couples in an unstable position of being in a second-tier marriage." The ruling prompted tension among the divided court. Multiple dissenting opinions were filed. Justice Antonin Scalia, reading from his dissent, said the components of the majority's ruling are "wrong." "The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Family Research Council president Tony Perkins released a statement saying his group was "disappointed" in the DOMA ruling and "disturbed" by the detail of the Proposition 8 decision but that it also took some heart from the Supreme Court's actions.
“Their refusal to redefine marriage for all states is a major setback for those seeking to redefine natural marriage," he said. "Time is not on the side of those seeking to create same-sex ‘marriage.’ As the American people are given time to experience the actual consequences of redefining marriage, the public debate and opposition to the redefinition of natural marriage will undoubtedly intensify
What is inevitable is that the male and female relationship will continue to be uniquely important to the future of society. The reality is that society needs children, and children need a mom and a dad. We will continue to work to restore and promote a healthy marriage culture, which will maximize the chances of a child being raised by a married mother and father.” Pat Robertson
Allowing gay couples to access the same rights and benefits as straight couples is an attack on “the foundation of our society” led by “a few people [who] want to have their way of doing of sex affirmed by everybody else,” Robertson warned on the “700 Club” on Wednesday.
“They say it’s homophobia to believe that a marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. God is not a homophobe, God is almighty. He’s in charge of the world and this is the way he made it. Why? Because there isn’t any other way to have children. Two men do not have children, two women do not have children. That is the way God made it.” Pastor Matthew Hagee
Breaking from the traditional line of panic, Hagee promised on “Hagee Hotline” that gay marriage would be the death of capitalism:
The only relationship in natural law that can produce consumers is the relationship between a man and a woman. When you create a society that does not recognize this relationship as the foundation of its existence and you cease to produce what is required to sustain your economy, you will not survive.
Bonus:Funny reactions
+ Show Spoiler +Westboro Baptist @WBCSays
Thank God for Fag SCOTUS knocking down hypocritical #DOMA & #Prop8! God Almighty’s ruling cannot be overruled by man! pic.twitter.com/37T6igJWDU John Nolte @NolteNC
Those worried gay marriage would be next 15 years ago were HOWLED at by media, just like media now HOWLING at those worried about polygamy. IrelandStandUp @IrelandStandUp
@fdelond @SCOTUSblog so polygamy is fine too and marrying your dog and incest? Resist Tyranny @ResistTyranny
SCOTUS clears the way for "equal protection" of polygamy, pedophilia, bestiality and other deviant behaviors rejected by a moral society. Bryan Fischer @BryanJFischer
The DOMA ruling has now made the normalization of polygamy, pedophilia, incest and bestiality inevitable. Matter of time.
I am personally glad that homosexuals now have the same rights as heterosexuals in states where gay marriage is allowed and can also get the same benefits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equality for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and human rights and puts it along with Netherlands,France and Great Britain at the forefront of the battle for equality.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs.
I shall keep this thread updated with reactions form relevant individuals
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On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Show nested quote +Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling: Show nested quote +
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law.
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On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law.
But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married.
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A big step closer! Woohoo!
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Obama has not always advocated same sex marriage until ~2012 right before the election. He was conflicted before then (which is understandable) despite his campaign promises in 2008.
In regards to DOMA, since section 2 was not struck down ^ is correct about a lack of full effect. To clarify, states do not have to recognize under full faith and credit gay marriages still. It is up to them to interpret. It is not clear if this were to go before the USC that it would actually be struck down.
At the same time, this is a huge victory for gay rights.
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On June 27 2013 00:23 ghosthunter wrote: Obama has not always advocated same sex marriage until ~2012 right before the election. He was conflicted before then (which is understandable) despite his campaign promises in 2008.
Campaign promise about what?
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I loled at the other relevant individuals and you post LadyGaga's twitter response lol. Look, her opinion is just as valid as your's or the next guy/girl.
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On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married.
No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California.
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On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:What does an analyst think about the entire rulling: Show nested quote +
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
uh, that's a different ruling
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On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California.
Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court.
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On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. It will end up in the full federal circuit court of appeals no matter what happens. The only way this gets settled is at the federal level.
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Fuck yeah
Was hoping it would be 9-0 though
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Interesting how fast this gets shut down on the basis of equal protection, but Affirmative Action and other racial preferences still take place.
I guess it's all about who you discriminate against. Some people are more protected than others.
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On June 27 2013 00:38 PassiveAce wrote: Fuck yeah
Was hoping it would be 9-0 though Nah, for 9-0's you need something super dumb, like copyrighting human DNA.
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can't believe the ruled against doma and prop 8, what a great day to be an american.
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btw, your analysts opinion is actually not about the DOMA case, but another related case. They ruled the people trying to overturn proposition 8 in the supreme court lacked standing.
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On June 27 2013 00:39 bugser wrote: Interesting how fast this gets shut down on the basis of equal protection, but Affirmative Action and other racial preferences still take place.
I guess it's all about who you discriminate against. Some people are more protected than others.
Equal protection under the law doesn't mean that private organizations can't choose who to hire. Affirmative Action has basically nothing to do with it. That has more to do with equal opportunity employment and stuff.
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On June 27 2013 00:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:38 PassiveAce wrote: Fuck yeah
Was hoping it would be 9-0 though Nah, for 9-0's you need something super dumb, like copyrighting human DNA. Or a law that denies people human rights :p ...you would think
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On June 27 2013 00:43 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:39 bugser wrote: Interesting how fast this gets shut down on the basis of equal protection, but Affirmative Action and other racial preferences still take place.
I guess it's all about who you discriminate against. Some people are more protected than others. Equal protection under the law doesn't mean that private organizations can't choose who to hire. Affirmative Action has basically nothing to do with it. That has more to do with equal opportunity employment and stuff. Government enforces racial preferences using Disparate Impact claims, preferential contracts for minority businesses, etc.
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On June 27 2013 00:31 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
uh, that's a different ruling
this is kinda just going to become the "Supreme Court rules in favor of gay things" thread anyway. Although an update to the OP including both would be nice.
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Cool stuff. I have really no idea about US politics but progress is always progress.
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On June 27 2013 00:47 Bagi wrote: Cool stuff. I have really no idea about US politics but progress is always progress.
It actually turns out that A = A ! 
On a serious note, the US Supreme Court has always been seen as a way to sort of perform an end run around an otherwise complicated political system. Because Congress and the President have constituents they have to be wary of making decisions that piss off a lot of people. This is FAR less the case for Supreme Court justices because they aren't elected, and they have the job for life. The Supreme Court is often a place where first steps are made on controversial issues since they are the only ones who can. This decision may also provide "cover" to Congress or the President to make some changes in law on this since they can use the excuse that SCOTUS forced their hand.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't. It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day.
This is a good victory but unfortunately there's still a very, very long way to go in this country. The worst states are still pulling the country down.
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Steps in the right direction, at least in some areas for us. Now what time is Rush, or a similar commentator on? I want to hear some ranting.
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On June 27 2013 00:53 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day.
I think that it probably wasn't within the bounds of the case that was given to them. The Supreme Court doesn't have the ability to rule on just anything. They need to have a case brought, and the scope of their ruling has something to do with the writ of certiorari, but as I am not a lwayer I couldn't tell you exactly what has to happen.
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On June 27 2013 00:53 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't. It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day. This is a good victory but unfortunately there's still a very, very long way to go in this country. The worst states are still pulling the country down.
DOMA was struck down on equal protection grounds, not federalism grounds. The Supreme Court says that it does violate citizen's rights. Married couples must be treated equally at the federal level.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 00:59 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:53 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't. It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day. This is a good victory but unfortunately there's still a very, very long way to go in this country. The worst states are still pulling the country down. DOMA was struck down on equal protection grounds, not federalism grounds. The Supreme Court says that it does violate citizen's rights. "by that portion of DoMA"
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A step in the right direction. Hopefully more of this positive news will come along in the fight for human equality.
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On June 27 2013 00:59 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:53 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't. It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day. This is a good victory but unfortunately there's still a very, very long way to go in this country. The worst states are still pulling the country down. DOMA was struck down on equal protection grounds, not federalism grounds. The Supreme Court says that it does violate citizen's rights.
yeah the only struck down the federal benefits portion on equal protection. The other part wasn't brought as part of the case and likely can't be ruled on.
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On June 27 2013 00:59 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:53 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't. It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day. This is a good victory but unfortunately there's still a very, very long way to go in this country. The worst states are still pulling the country down. DOMA was struck down on equal protection grounds, not federalism grounds. The Supreme Court says that it does violate citizen's rights. Married couples must be treated equally at the federal level. We are not lawyers(well maybe, I'm not) and it will take years to flesh this one out, but it is clear that the court does not approve of laws that attempt provide protections to one set of people while removing them from another.
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Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting.
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On June 27 2013 01:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:59 DoubleReed wrote:On June 27 2013 00:53 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't. It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day. This is a good victory but unfortunately there's still a very, very long way to go in this country. The worst states are still pulling the country down. DOMA was struck down on equal protection grounds, not federalism grounds. The Supreme Court says that it does violate citizen's rights. Married couples must be treated equally at the federal level. We are not lawyers(well maybe, I'm not) and it will take years to flesh this one out, but it is clear that the court does not approve of laws that attempt provide protections to one set of people while removing them from another.
I think it is pretty clear that any law prohibiting gay marriage is unconstitutional now. Yes, this opinion directly addresses a federal law (DOMA), but there really isn't anything to stop its application to state laws.
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On June 27 2013 00:59 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:53 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. No, it won't. It's not a citizen's rights being violated by that portion of DoMA, it's the state's right (where the marriage took place) that's being violated. It would be a case between a state and the federal government. That portion of DoMA has been known to be unconstitutional since its inception, yet it hasn't made it to SCOTUS yet. That's part of why it's so stupid they remained silent on it. It should have been a part of the decision. It's plain as day. This is a good victory but unfortunately there's still a very, very long way to go in this country. The worst states are still pulling the country down. DOMA was struck down on equal protection grounds, not federalism grounds. The Supreme Court says that it does violate citizen's rights. Married couples must be treated equally at the federal level.
Just another thing I have to add to this. Federalism doesn't necessarily do you a lot of good here unless federal law expressly permits same sex marriage. States have to kowtow to the fgov, but just because one state allows it doesn't mean that they have to. Federalism only guarantees that if you were married in a state that allows same sex marriage that you would get the same federal benefits no matter what.
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On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. When did that happen? Or are you just imposing that argument on people who agree with the ruling because it makes it easier to dismiss them?
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On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. it really is a human rights issue imo. Its not that people who disagree are monsters, its that they are ignorant
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On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting.
I never said that.All I said it involves human rights.That is just my personal oppinion.Besides I constantly update the OP with opposing views.
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On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting.
How else should it be framed? "equality" vs "bigots want to impose their beliefs on other people despite the activities of said people not affecting them in any way but it's cool cause we don't want to hurt their feelings despite their systematic oppression and abuse of minority groups. After all, it's really THEIR feelings that are important here."
Does that framing sound more honest to you?
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On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. Not really. When there's no valid argument against it, and disagreement amounts to "I don't like it", the fact that you call this a debate is offensive.
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On June 27 2013 01:15 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. How else should it be framed? "equality" vs "bigots want to impose their beliefs on other people despite the activities of said people not affecting them in any way but it's cool cause we don't want to hurt their feelings despite their systematic oppression and abuse of minority groups. After all, it's really THEIR feelings that are important here." Does that framing sound more honest to you?
On June 27 2013 01:16 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. Not really. When there's no valid argument against it, and disagreement amounts to "I don't like it", the fact that you call this a debate is offensive.
Sounds like an A+ example of what I just described.
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I'm always glad to see federal authority undermined.
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On June 27 2013 01:17 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:15 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. How else should it be framed? "equality" vs "bigots want to impose their beliefs on other people despite the activities of said people not affecting them in any way but it's cool cause we don't want to hurt their feelings despite their systematic oppression and abuse of minority groups. After all, it's really THEIR feelings that are important here." Does that framing sound more honest to you? Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:16 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. Not really. When there's no valid argument against it, and disagreement amounts to "I don't like it", the fact that you call this a debate is offensive. Sounds like an A+ example of what I just described. Bring us your valid, well thought out argument? How does gay marriage negatively affect you or your relationship?
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On June 27 2013 01:17 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:15 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. How else should it be framed? "equality" vs "bigots want to impose their beliefs on other people despite the activities of said people not affecting them in any way but it's cool cause we don't want to hurt their feelings despite their systematic oppression and abuse of minority groups. After all, it's really THEIR feelings that are important here." Does that framing sound more honest to you? Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:16 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. Not really. When there's no valid argument against it, and disagreement amounts to "I don't like it", the fact that you call this a debate is offensive. Sounds like an A+ example of what I just described.
Clearly you'r unhappy with the discussion, so lets hear from you. I honestly want to know what your alternative framing of the debate is.
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On June 27 2013 01:17 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:15 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. How else should it be framed? "equality" vs "bigots want to impose their beliefs on other people despite the activities of said people not affecting them in any way but it's cool cause we don't want to hurt their feelings despite their systematic oppression and abuse of minority groups. After all, it's really THEIR feelings that are important here." Does that framing sound more honest to you? Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:16 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. Not really. When there's no valid argument against it, and disagreement amounts to "I don't like it", the fact that you call this a debate is offensive. Sounds like an A+ example of what I just described.
I like how you're just crying about being insulted but you haven't actually offered any "valid points" that apparently exist on the other side. And that's why we don't take you seriously babycakes.
User was warned for this post
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On June 27 2013 01:18 Gunther wrote: I'm always glad to see federal authority undermined. This doesn't really undermine federal authority in any way. It wasn't a matter of the states placing a check on the federal government, but instead the fgov putting a check on itself through the 14th amendment.
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So happy and proud to be a Californian. The rest of the states will join, in time. Just like with interracial marriage, desegregation, etc., etc., -- dragging their feet and whining to the end. But you can't stop progress.
Love is love. Good day today. <3
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On June 27 2013 01:18 Gunther wrote: I'm always glad to see federal authority undermined. but the federal authority is being undermined by another federal authority!!!
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On June 27 2013 01:17 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:15 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. How else should it be framed? "equality" vs "bigots want to impose their beliefs on other people despite the activities of said people not affecting them in any way but it's cool cause we don't want to hurt their feelings despite their systematic oppression and abuse of minority groups. After all, it's really THEIR feelings that are important here." Does that framing sound more honest to you? Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:16 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 01:12 Bigtony wrote: Framing the debate in terms of 'equality' and:
"This is a basic human right and anyone who disagrees is a monster."
is dishonest and disgusting. Not really. When there's no valid argument against it, and disagreement amounts to "I don't like it", the fact that you call this a debate is offensive. Sounds like an A+ example of what I just described. Does the law help people? Yes. Does the law hurt people? No. Will the law be difficult to implement? No. Will the law be costly? No. Will people be offended? Yes. Is it the role of government to make sure people don't get offended? No.
Pretty simple. Unless there's a secret Bohemian Nightclub where the gays are planning their next strike... and scarlett has already alluded to this:
On June 26 2013 23:48 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Oh no ~_~ He found us out ! The rest of you are just forgetting to extrapolate ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0DLy2RX.png)
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Congratulations California. Congratulations married homosexual couples. Congratulations SCOTUS.
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On June 27 2013 01:23 Broodwurst wrote: Well done new TL logo WE DID IT GUYS!
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I am all for equal treatment but i would actually love not to give LGBT couples same privilages as for hetersoexual couples but to take those privilages away from heterosexuals. Most of bonuses and privilages given to couples are rooted in nationalistic ideologies of XIX century. We are wiser than that.
I am talking about things like tax reductions for married people and such, You have those in US?
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On June 27 2013 01:42 Silvanel wrote: I am all for equal treatment but i would actually love not to give LGBT couples same privilages as for hetersoexual couples but to take those privilages away from heterosexuals. Most of bonuses and privilages given to couples are rooted in nationalistic ideologies of XIX century. We are wiser than that.
I am talking about things like tax reductions for married people and such, You have those in US? Yes and we still have deductions for children as well. We have a shit ton of laws based on marriage, which is basically a highly specialized contract and has special legal protections associated with it.
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On June 27 2013 01:42 Silvanel wrote: I am all for equal treatment but i would actually love not to give LGBT couples same privilages as for hetersoexual couples but to take those privilages away from heterosexuals. Most of bonuses and privilages given to couples are rooted in nationalistic ideologies of XIX century. We are wiser than that.
I am talking about things like tax reductions for married people and such, You have those in US? Yep. I think there would be a lot of backlash for trying to remove those things though. Married couples are a pretty stable unit in society and their existence is useful for a lot of reasons that the government would want to keep around. To name just a couple:
- The idea of a cohesive family makes inheritance much easier - Knowing that there is some stability to whether or not incomes are combined max it easier to asses things like whether or not a couple ought to get a mortgage
I don't think the idea of government sanctioned and encoraged marriages is going anywhere anytime soon.
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On June 27 2013 01:42 Silvanel wrote: I am all for equal treatment but i would actually love not to give LGBT couples same privilages as for hetersoexual couples but to take those privilages away from heterosexuals. Most of bonuses and privilages given to couples are rooted in nationalistic ideologies of XIX century. We are wiser than that.
I am talking about things like tax reductions for married people and such, You have those in US? Joint filing can be a mixed bag. Even if that is taken out, marriage still gives important legal powers for the will, visitation rights, inheritance tax and whatnot.
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I don't mind marriages having bonuses, just don't have them religiously associated... Also, not -that- big of a victory considering CA was a rare (or whatever you want to call it) example of "preventing gay marriage". This does not apply to all of the other states who do not have gay marriage at all, right? Anyway, it's nice that the supreme court isn't 100% mongoloids I suppose.
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On June 27 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote: I don't mind marriages having bonuses, just don't have them religiously associated... Also, not -that- big of a victory considering CA was a rare (or whatever you want to call it) example of "preventing gay marriage". This does not apply to all of the other states who do not have gay marriage at all, right? Anyway, it's nice that the supreme court isn't 100% mongoloids I suppose.
The doma decision is more of a big deal. If you can get to a gay friendly state and get married the you get federal benefits too
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Love loves to love love, really happy for quite a few of my friends who can now have their marriages legally recognized now that prop 8 has been kicked back into the gutter where it belongs.
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Yeah i am not talking about inheritance, visit rights and such. I dont wish to tottaly reconstruct society. I just would like to tax reduction for couples taken away, make sure children adopted and naturalborn children give exactly same financial benefits (or non at all). Things like that.
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On June 27 2013 01:56 Silvanel wrote: Yeah i am not talking about inheritance, visit rights and such. I dont wish to tottaly reconstruct society. I just would like to tax reduction for couples taken away, make sure children adopted and naturalborn children give exactly same financial benefits (or non at all). Things like that. The thing is, all of that legal stuff is a benefit to society since its simple, so the state incentivises people to put themselves in that position
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On June 27 2013 01:56 Silvanel wrote: Yeah i am not talking about inheritance, visit rights and such. I dont wish to tottaly reconstruct society. I just would like to tax reduction for couples taken away, make sure children adopted and naturalborn children give exactly same financial benefits (or non at all). Things like that.
Well, I loathe taxes in general so if we're gonna make single people and married people more equal then we should reduce taxes for everyone so that they match the level at which married people are taxed.
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On June 27 2013 01:56 Silvanel wrote: Yeah i am not talking about inheritance, visit rights and such. I dont wish to tottaly reconstruct society. I just would like to tax reduction for couples taken away, make sure children adopted and naturalborn children give exactly same financial benefits (or non at all). Things like that. It's not as simple as that. Getting married is not a guaranteed tax cut. http://www.urban.org/books/TTP/whittington.cfm Second section also goes over the origin of these laws.
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Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for.
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On June 27 2013 01:59 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:56 Silvanel wrote: Yeah i am not talking about inheritance, visit rights and such. I dont wish to tottaly reconstruct society. I just would like to tax reduction for couples taken away, make sure children adopted and naturalborn children give exactly same financial benefits (or non at all). Things like that. The thing is, all of that legal stuff is a benefit to society since its simple, so the state incentivises people to put themselves in that position
Actualy those thing are no longer beneficial to society. Those are remnants of the times when countries wished to have more and more citizens so they can send them to fight wars for them. Those times are gone. World is already overpopulated. We need to stop promoting natural growth of people.
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On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for.
If you don't care, then why did you click on a thread about it and why did you take the time to post? Oh wait, you're just trying to get your post count up.
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On June 27 2013 02:05 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. If you don't care, then why did you click on a thread about it and why did you take the time to post? Oh wait, you're just trying to get your post count up. Because my last line is a pretty significant thought, and in my opinion worthy of sharing or discussing.
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He has been on TL for some time; I'm quite positive he isn't just adding 1 to his post count. He had an opinion and stated it. Isn't what this is here for?
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On June 27 2013 01:55 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:53 Blargh wrote: I don't mind marriages having bonuses, just don't have them religiously associated... Also, not -that- big of a victory considering CA was a rare (or whatever you want to call it) example of "preventing gay marriage". This does not apply to all of the other states who do not have gay marriage at all, right? Anyway, it's nice that the supreme court isn't 100% mongoloids I suppose. The doma decision is more of a big deal. If you can get to a gay friendly state and get married the you get federal benefits too Ah, yeah, that is considerably better, haha. Must not have been thinking clearly, I had got DOMA confused with something else. I just woke up ^_~.
I am pretty surprised the supreme court ruled against it at all (though 5-4 is pretty close =/)
@above posts While gay couples certainly do not make up that large of a % of the population, it is a pretty big deal when you look at EU and other modern countries and see that they all have marriage equivalents already and USA is lagging behind. The reason why there isn't "bigger stuff" is because we're past that stage already. There isn't nearly as much "racism" as there used to be, but obviously it still exists. It's just infinitely harder to fight against than something like gay marriage, where you can easily just allow same-sex couples to marry and everyone is merry.
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On June 27 2013 02:03 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:59 packrat386 wrote:On June 27 2013 01:56 Silvanel wrote: Yeah i am not talking about inheritance, visit rights and such. I dont wish to tottaly reconstruct society. I just would like to tax reduction for couples taken away, make sure children adopted and naturalborn children give exactly same financial benefits (or non at all). Things like that. The thing is, all of that legal stuff is a benefit to society since its simple, so the state incentivises people to put themselves in that position Actualy those thing are no longer beneficial to society. Those are remnants of the times when countries wished to have more and more citizens so they can send them to fight wars for them. Those times are gone. World is already overpopulated. We need to stop promoting natural growth of people. Sorry i was a bit terse there. I meant that the simplification of things like inheritance and stuff is a benefit to society since otherwise there would be a lot of strain on the courts. Also for things like adoption, a marriage is a sign that the 2 adoptive parents are probably going to be together for a longer time, which helps prevent single parent households.Things like that are why governments promote marriage, not just to promote having a lot of kids. If your argument was true then we wouldn't marriage benefits in places like china that officially want to fight overpopulation.
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On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. A lot of people care.
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On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. lol wtf? How is this any different then coming into this thread and saying "why are we worrying about this when there are starving african children"
I love you cecil but I think you are just way off-base here :p
this matters yo, these decisions will have a profound societal impact for many years to come
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On June 27 2013 02:06 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:05 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. If you don't care, then why did you click on a thread about it and why did you take the time to post? Oh wait, you're just trying to get your post count up. Because my last line is a pretty significant thought, and in my opinion worthy of sharing or discussing.
Not really. You posited an opinion which can neither be proven or disproven. There's nothing to discuss. You think what you think and that's all.
And yeah, you opened your post with "Eh, who cares[?]" Implying that not only do you not care but you cannot find people who do. Which is both a dumb question as this thread exists and one that doesn't contribute in any way to the discussion you claim to want to foster.
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On June 27 2013 02:08 farvacola wrote:A lot of people care. I care, and I know a LOT of other people who do.
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On June 27 2013 02:08 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. lol wtf? How is this any different then coming into this thread and saying "why are we worrying about this when there are starving african children" I love you cecil but I think you are just way off-base here :p I just don't feel like this whole thing is much of a victory. It's not surprising that it happened. Prohibition happened at a time of wealth and peace for the US. Well, similar is happening now. There is no World War and no great cause to fight for. Things that feel more petty like legalizing marijuana and marriage rights are what the focus is on. It's just a healthy reflection on the overall outlook of the events. Not everyone needs to be excited about this event to have a valid or thought provoking opinion.
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On June 27 2013 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:08 PassiveAce wrote:On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. lol wtf? How is this any different then coming into this thread and saying "why are we worrying about this when there are starving african children" I love you cecil but I think you are just way off-base here :p I just don't feel like this whole thing is much of a victory. It's not surprising that it happened. Prohibition happened at a time of wealth and peace for the US. Well, similar is happening now. There is no World War and no great cause to fight for. Things that feel more petty like legalizing marijuana and marriage rights are what the focus is on. It's just a healthy reflection on the overall outlook of the events. Not everyone needs to be excited about this event to have a valid or thought provoking opinion.
The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread.
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On June 27 2013 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:08 PassiveAce wrote:On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. lol wtf? How is this any different then coming into this thread and saying "why are we worrying about this when there are starving african children" I love you cecil but I think you are just way off-base here :p I just don't feel like this whole thing is much of a victory. It's not surprising that it happened. Prohibition happened at a time of wealth and peace for the US. Well, similar is happening now. There is no World War and no great cause to fight for. Things that feel more petty like legalizing marijuana and marriage rights are what the focus is on. It's just a healthy reflection on the overall outlook of the events. Not everyone needs to be excited about this event to have a valid or thought provoking opinion.
How in the hell is equal rights for gay people not a great cause to fight for? Maybe its not the holocaust, but the persecution of gays in modern society is a serious harm that ought to be stopped. Also this is like the number one wrong thread in which to argue that gay marriage isn't a big deal.
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On June 27 2013 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:08 PassiveAce wrote:On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. lol wtf? How is this any different then coming into this thread and saying "why are we worrying about this when there are starving african children" I love you cecil but I think you are just way off-base here :p I just don't feel like this whole thing is much of a victory. It's not surprising that it happened. Prohibition happened at a time of wealth and peace for the US. Well, similar is happening now. There is no World War and no great cause to fight for. Things that feel more petty like legalizing marijuana and marriage rights are what the focus is on. It's just a healthy reflection on the overall outlook of the events. Not everyone needs to be excited about this event to have a valid or thought provoking opinion. Ok, so you going full politic hipster on this one. We get that you were excited by equal rights a long time ago and now your over it. You are now pumped around rights that we haven't heard about yet, because we follow mainstream rights.
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On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that [offending people on accident]. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way.
Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened.
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On June 27 2013 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:08 PassiveAce wrote:On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. lol wtf? How is this any different then coming into this thread and saying "why are we worrying about this when there are starving african children" I love you cecil but I think you are just way off-base here :p I just don't feel like this whole thing is much of a victory. It's not surprising that it happened. Prohibition happened at a time of wealth and peace for the US. Well, similar is happening now. There is no World War and no great cause to fight for. Things that feel more petty like legalizing marijuana and marriage rights are what the focus is on. It's just a healthy reflection on the overall outlook of the events. Not everyone needs to be excited about this event to have a valid or thought provoking opinion. There are many people who consider equality in marriage rights a great cause.
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Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4?
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On June 27 2013 02:15 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way. Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened. The idea that gay rights are coming about only because there is nothing better to do is pretty offensive. You're only digging yourself deeper in here.
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On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote: That was not what black lawmakers took away from the decision.
“I foresee some great and terrible changes in the voting rights arena,” said longtime Democratic state Sen. Hank Sanders of Selma, the site of 1965’s “Bloody Sunday,” which proved a catalyst for the Voting Rights Act.
Sanders, who represents all or part of several predominantly black counties, said he feared Republican lawmakers would find ways to limit voting.
“It will not be long in my opinion before the right to vote will be snatched with a thousand little cuts and some big cuts,” he said. “This is the most destructive decision of my lifetime.”
Senate Minority Leader Vivian Davis Figures, D-Mobile, said in a statement that the decision was a “huge setback” to voters.
“This is a total injustice and another tactic to suppress the minority vote,” she said in the statement.
Rep. Darrio Melton, D-Selma, said in a statement that “the people of Alabama, and of Selma” knew the costs of defending the law. “The decision by the Supreme Court is a slap in the face to all those who marched and bled to ensure our fundamental right to vote.”
Uhhh isn't this a reaction to another issue? I'm pretty sure this is about the decision where the supreme court claimed that section 4 of the Voting Rights act was unconstitutional. This has nothing to do with the DOMA stuff. (A quick googling got me to this article: http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20130626/NEWS02/306250025/Alabamians-reaction-Supreme-Court-ruling-splits-racial-party-lines if anyone is interested)
This really confused me lol
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On June 27 2013 02:15 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way. Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened.
You are grossly overestimating your contribution to the thread. Please stop. No one cares about how you think your apathy is interesting.
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On June 27 2013 02:15 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way. Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened. I continue my assertion that you are going full hipster on us. We aren't talking about film or poetry here. There isn't a recipe for clam chowder in the ruling, so there isn't much of a deeper meaning.
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On June 27 2013 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:08 PassiveAce wrote:On June 27 2013 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Eh who cares. Pretty insignificant achievement in my opinion, especially considering both women's suffrage and black discrimination were not that long ago. Just think about how the US Japanese citizens were treated during WWII. I think these are significant issues. Same sex marriage is more of an issue that gets solved when there's a lack of a bigger cause to fight for. lol wtf? How is this any different then coming into this thread and saying "why are we worrying about this when there are starving african children" I love you cecil but I think you are just way off-base here :p I just don't feel like this whole thing is much of a victory. It's not surprising that it happened. Prohibition happened at a time of wealth and peace for the US. Well, similar is happening now. There is no World War and no great cause to fight for. Things that feel more petty like legalizing marijuana and marriage rights are what the focus is on. It's just a healthy reflection on the overall outlook of the events. Not everyone needs to be excited about this event to have a valid or thought provoking opinion. I think that you are vastly underestimating the ways in which the decisions made by the supreme court in the last few days are going to affect American society for the next few decades. I think your perspective is weird, its true that when the apocalypse is happening or a war is going on that things can seem smaller in perspective, but whats your point? Should we not celebrate the victories during peacetime? If your point is only that there could be bigger things happening then I guess you have made it but I don't see how it's really that thought provoking :p
This is a huge deal to the hundreds of thousands of people who want to have their marriages legitimate in the eyes of the state. Just join in the celebration you big party pooper
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On June 27 2013 02:17 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:15 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way. Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened. The idea that gay rights are coming about only because there is nothing better to do is pretty offensive. You're only digging yourself deeper in here. Offensive or not, people wouldn't be focusing on this issue if we were in a world war -this is a big deal to me. Just like the actual topic of the thread is a big deal to you. If you're all so much against unfair treatment try to not all jump at me because I wanted to take the discussion in a slightly different direction. So you think my opinion is weird, that's fine. I might think gay marriage is weird, but you don't see me attacking your posts.
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On June 27 2013 02:18 GattAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote: That was not what black lawmakers took away from the decision.
“I foresee some great and terrible changes in the voting rights arena,” said longtime Democratic state Sen. Hank Sanders of Selma, the site of 1965’s “Bloody Sunday,” which proved a catalyst for the Voting Rights Act.
Sanders, who represents all or part of several predominantly black counties, said he feared Republican lawmakers would find ways to limit voting.
“It will not be long in my opinion before the right to vote will be snatched with a thousand little cuts and some big cuts,” he said. “This is the most destructive decision of my lifetime.”
Senate Minority Leader Vivian Davis Figures, D-Mobile, said in a statement that the decision was a “huge setback” to voters.
“This is a total injustice and another tactic to suppress the minority vote,” she said in the statement.
Rep. Darrio Melton, D-Selma, said in a statement that “the people of Alabama, and of Selma” knew the costs of defending the law. “The decision by the Supreme Court is a slap in the face to all those who marched and bled to ensure our fundamental right to vote.” Uhhh isn't this a reaction to another issue? I'm pretty sure this is about the decision where the supreme court claimed that section 4 of the Voting Rights act was unconstitutional. This has nothing to do with the DOMA stuff. (A quick googling got me to this article: http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20130626/NEWS02/306250025/Alabamians-reaction-Supreme-Court-ruling-splits-racial-party-lines if anyone is interested) This really confused me lol
solved.sorry my bad.
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On June 27 2013 02:20 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:17 packrat386 wrote:On June 27 2013 02:15 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way. Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened. The idea that gay rights are coming about only because there is nothing better to do is pretty offensive. You're only digging yourself deeper in here. Offensive or not, people wouldn't be focusing on this issue if we were in a world war.
How on earth is this hypothetical in any way meaningful?
And you don't get to decide the direction of the thread. If you want a different discussion make your own thread.
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On June 27 2013 02:20 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:17 packrat386 wrote:On June 27 2013 02:15 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way. Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened. The idea that gay rights are coming about only because there is nothing better to do is pretty offensive. You're only digging yourself deeper in here. Offensive or not, people wouldn't be focusing on this issue if we were in a world war. Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being?
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On June 27 2013 02:20 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:17 packrat386 wrote:On June 27 2013 02:15 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 27 2013 02:13 Klondikebar wrote: The only thought your "opinion" provokes is...you're kinda being a dick in this thread. Sorry if it came off that way, I have a habit of doing that. It wasn't my intention to imply nobody cares. I used "Eh who cares" as an expression to try to contrast the reaction I see in other people in order to set up an alternative opinion. But yeah it didn't come off that way. Edit: And no it isn't about what's mainstream or not. I just thought it was an interesting way to think about it. Sort of like pointing out a deeper issue or hidden meaning behind current events. Just reflecting on why things have happened. The idea that gay rights are coming about only because there is nothing better to do is pretty offensive. You're only digging yourself deeper in here. Offensive or not, people wouldn't be focusing on this issue if we were in a world war -this is a big deal to me. Just like the actual topic of the thread is a big deal to you. If you're all so much against unfair treatment try to not all jump at me because I wanted to take the discussion in a slightly different direction. I hope you grace every significant general thread with a friendly reminder that we are still not in a world war. It is oh so helpful to be reminded of this.
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I'm glad the U.S. is finally stepping up as one of the nations that is legally recognizing same sex marriage. We still have a way to go before we're on the level of some other countries, but at least we're starting to put ourselves on the progressive side of this issue.
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FUCK yeah. so glad for this, for the US, and as a resident of California.
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On June 27 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote: Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being? Point being that I think it's interesting such an event like this warrants the attitude I've received in this thread and shuns the one I assumed.
But if it's too off-topic, like someone else pointed out then I'm sorry for bringing it up at all.
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On June 27 2013 02:34 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote: Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being? Point being that I think it's interesting such an event like this warrants the attitude I've received in this thread and shuns the one I assumed. But if it's too off-topic, like someone else pointed out then I'm sorry for bringing it up at all.
You keep using that word...It does not mean what you think it means.
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On June 27 2013 02:34 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote: Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being? Point being that I think it's interesting such an event like this warrants the attitude I've received in this thread and shuns the one I assumed. But if it's too off-topic, like someone else pointed out then I'm sorry for bringing it up at all. You find it interesting that others prioritize civic events differently than you and are unwilling to entertain your non-sequitor "big picture" consideration?
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On June 27 2013 02:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 27 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote: Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being? Point being that I think it's interesting such an event like this warrants the attitude I've received in this thread and shuns the one I assumed. But if it's too off-topic, like someone else pointed out then I'm sorry for bringing it up at all. You find it interesting that others prioritize civic events differently than you and are unwilling to entertain your non-sequitor "big picture" consideration? No, my actual opinion is different than the one I assumed here. I was surprised at how negative the responses were.
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On June 27 2013 02:34 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote: Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being? Point being that I think it's interesting such an event like this warrants the attitude I've received in this thread and shuns the one I assumed. But if it's too off-topic, like someone else pointed out then I'm sorry for bringing it up at all. Walking into a thread and saying that an entire group of people don't matter is often a good way to attract vehement criticism. For instance, if you walked into a holocaust memorial thread and said you didn't really see a point in it, you'd get an almost universal backlash. The only reason that it isn't as universal about LGBT issues is because religious and political organizations have decided to make it a publicity issue.
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On June 27 2013 02:34 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote: Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being? Point being that I think it's interesting such an event like this warrants the attitude I've received in this thread and shuns the one I assumed. But if it's too off-topic, like someone else pointed out then I'm sorry for bringing it up at all. Well I am glad you felt the need to tell us all that you think its interesting that we would likely care less about this issue if we were at war and being bombed. We need big picture thinkers like yourself to keep us narrow minded people aware of what we are really looking at.
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On June 27 2013 02:38 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:35 farvacola wrote:On June 27 2013 02:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 27 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote: Well no shit. I also wouldn't be very interested in the issue if I was on fire, or having sex(but not on fire, that would be weird). Your point being? Point being that I think it's interesting such an event like this warrants the attitude I've received in this thread and shuns the one I assumed. But if it's too off-topic, like someone else pointed out then I'm sorry for bringing it up at all. You find it interesting that others prioritize civic events differently than you and are unwilling to entertain your non-sequitor "big picture" consideration? No, my actual opinion is different than the one I assumed here. I was surprised at how negative the responses were. Its because you passive aggressively insulted the people in the thread by saying "Meh, its not really a big deal, other larger things are more important." That's like if your grandmother just recovered from cancer and I went "Meh, shes going to die of something else"
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On June 27 2013 02:42 Plansix wrote: Its because you passive aggressively insulted the people in the thread by saying "Meh, its not really a big deal, other larger things are more important." That's like if your grandmother just recovered from cancer and I went "Meh, shes going to die of something else" Yeah I know, I apologized for it. My original post didn't really carry the meaning I wanted it to. That's my fault.
On June 27 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote: Well I am glad you felt the need to tell us all that you think its interesting that we would likely care less about this issue if we were at war and being bombed. We need big picture thinkers like yourself to keep us narrow minded people aware of what we are really looking at. Well if you've already figured it out no need to be sardonic about it. Perhaps I'm slow to realize the obvious. That should be fine with you and not warrant borderline flaming. To me it's weird that someone could believe in fair marriage and not in being fair in a forum.
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yeah dont jump to flaming if he isnt flaming anyone
Cecil totally rocks
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Fitting that this thread appears right above the Rainbow TL logo thread, when looking at the sidebar of General discussions.
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I would argue it is not a big deal... wait no what I mean is it should not be a big deal. Some people wanna marry? Go ahead! From purely practical perspective I wouldn't even care about constitutions, rights and stuff, they want to marry let them marry it doesn't concern me. Why people put so much of their money and time trying to prevent gays from marrying, why they are making such a big deal out of it, is beyond me.
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Nice victory. About damn time.
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On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court.
Its a federal statute, and if a Circuit Court throws it out, it is extremely likely that SCOTUS will grant cert. on it. I hope you don't think yourself that Texas (or any other rabiat-South State) would let a Circuit Court decide that they should give state rights to them gays, and nót step to the Supreme Court. This will take at least 2-3 years. The Prop 8 suit took 5 years... (but that was also because of the complicated standing issue, that took about a year to resolve) However, now that DOMA is off the books, there are probably a flurry of lawsuits incoming against the State-DOMAs that several states have on the books, so within 2-3 years (when only the most deep-red states will not have adopted SSM) we'll probably have Kennedy write another opinion declaring same-sex marriage the law of the land.
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"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive.
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On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. That would only be impressive if it hadn't been in a dissenting opinion...
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On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive.
It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite.
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On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite.
10 points for you.
On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4?
Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins).
The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is:
"This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America."
Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately.
Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun)
DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdf
Prop 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf
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On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is.
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On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it.
On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change.
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I get sick to my stomach reading government officials using "God's Will" as grounds for anything, it's absolutely disgusting that in 2013 religion is allowed to even be mentioned when considering laws that affect the lives of millions who may not even believe in your god. America, the country who criticizes Muslims and sharia law while at the same time shoving Christianity down the throats of everyone.
Glad we were able to stick it to these morons today.
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On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change.
That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line.
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On June 27 2013 03:17 arie3000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. Its a federal statute, and if a Circuit Court throws it out, it is extremely likely that SCOTUS will grant cert. on it. I hope you don't think yourself that Texas (or any other rabiat-South State) would let a Circuit Court decide that they should give state rights to them gays, and nót step to the Supreme Court. This will take at least 2-3 years. The Prop 8 suit took 5 years... (but that was also because of the complicated standing issue, that took about a year to resolve) However, now that DOMA is off the books, there are probably a flurry of lawsuits incoming against the State-DOMAs that several states have on the books, so within 2-3 years (when only the most deep-red states will not have adopted SSM) we'll probably have Kennedy write another opinion declaring same-sex marriage the law of the land.
Yeah I feel like "a quick lawsuit" isn't a thing when it gets to the supreme court . Thats the issue with using the court as an avenue of change, it takes a while.
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On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that.
Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be.
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Believe it or not even with my past post history, I really am happy with SCOTUS. They have given a giant move toward power to the states with the striking down of DOMA and Article 4 states can have freedom to decided their voting process and if they wish to ratify gay marriage.
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On June 27 2013 03:44 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:17 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:31 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:29 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. No. States do NOT have to recognize out-of-state SS marriages, that is paragraph 2 of DOMA, and was not an issue before the Court, thus the Court didn't rule on it. Texas will definitely not recognize same-sex marriages until a court orders it to do. Of course, the couples can file their Federal Tax Returns as married, but in some states they will not be treated as such. Lawsuit filed in 3,2,1... it'll be a few years, and then this question will be before the justices. Good ruling today, as expected. The 'no standing' is a 50-50 thing, but at least it'll most likely bring SSM back to California. Ah ok. But yeah, a quick lawsuit will clear that up really fast. And it might not even have to go all the way to the supreme court. Its a federal statute, and if a Circuit Court throws it out, it is extremely likely that SCOTUS will grant cert. on it. I hope you don't think yourself that Texas (or any other rabiat-South State) would let a Circuit Court decide that they should give state rights to them gays, and nót step to the Supreme Court. This will take at least 2-3 years. The Prop 8 suit took 5 years... (but that was also because of the complicated standing issue, that took about a year to resolve) However, now that DOMA is off the books, there are probably a flurry of lawsuits incoming against the State-DOMAs that several states have on the books, so within 2-3 years (when only the most deep-red states will not have adopted SSM) we'll probably have Kennedy write another opinion declaring same-sex marriage the law of the land. Yeah I feel like "a quick lawsuit" isn't a thing when it gets to the supreme court  . Thats the issue with using the court as an avenue of change, it takes a while. There is no such thing as a quick lawsuit in the Circuit Court. It takes around 2-4 years for a case to move through that court system.
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On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be.
Oh please. Do you remember Scalia during the oral arguments of this case? He was committing basic logical fallacies and outright bullying the plaintiff while barely touching the defense.
And yeah, social change is kinda a big part of his job. If we just let the majority decide stuff we'd still be able to own people. Part of the supreme court's job is to force social change when the majority becomes oppressive.
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On June 27 2013 03:51 DeathProfessor wrote: Believe it or not even with my past post history, I really am happy with SCOTUS. They have given a giant move toward power to the states with the striking down of DOMA and Article 4 states can have freedom to decided their voting process and if they wish to ratify gay marriage.
Hate to burst your bubble but I don't really see this as a shift of power in favor of the states. The limit imposed on DOMA was based on the 14th ammendment and it seems that it will likely lead to a federal institution of same sex marriage.
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On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. Shame he didn't feel like sticking to his guns yesterday then, eh?
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So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome.
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It's a sad day when people jump for joy when one of the most basic of human rights isn't so narrowly stripped away. This is ridiculous that all of a sudden everyone becomes politically engaged over something that should ultimately be a non-issue. Instead of debating whether or not gay marriage should be legal, why aren't people asking why the state should have any say in peoples marital preferences to begin with?
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On June 27 2013 03:55 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. Oh please. Do you remember Scalia during the oral arguments of this case? He was committing basic logical fallacies and outright bullying the plaintiff while barely touching the defense. And yeah, social change is kinda a big part of his job. If we just let the majority decide stuff we'd still be able to own people. Part of the supreme court's job is to force social change when the majority becomes oppressive. Hey, I never said I agreed with him, but I don't think he is evil for having a specific view. Social change isn't part of his job, because he was appointed because he did not believe it was the governments role to enforce social change. That is how Judges work at that level, because they sit on a panel of judges who will think differently than them and they are not the only person making the decision.
And at that level, Judges don't bully attorneys. You don't go before the Supreme Court and expect to answer easy questions. You prepare to answer the tough ones and deal with the Judges.
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On June 27 2013 03:57 Tibbroar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. Shame he didn't feel like sticking to his guns yesterday then, eh? WTF are you talking about? He is one of the 4 who ruled for the law and wrote a dissenting opinion.
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On June 27 2013 03:58 alwaysfeeling wrote: It's a sad day when people jump for joy when one of the most basic of human rights isn't so narrowly stripped away. This is ridiculous that everyone all of a sudden becomes politically engaged over something that should ultimately be a non-issue. Instead of debating whether or not gay marriage should be legal, why aren't people asking why the state should have any say in the marital preferences of anyone to begin with?
because religion still important in murica
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On June 27 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:57 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. Shame he didn't feel like sticking to his guns yesterday then, eh? WTF are you talking about? He is one of the 4 who ruled for the law and wrote a dissenting opinion. Uh, no. He was one of the majority on the voting rights act idiocy.
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On June 27 2013 04:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. Oh please. Do you remember Scalia during the oral arguments of this case? He was committing basic logical fallacies and outright bullying the plaintiff while barely touching the defense. And yeah, social change is kinda a big part of his job. If we just let the majority decide stuff we'd still be able to own people. Part of the supreme court's job is to force social change when the majority becomes oppressive. Hey, I never said I agreed with him, but I don't think he is evil for having a specific view. Social change isn't part of his job, because he was appointed because he did not believe it was the governments role to enforce social change. That is how Judges work at that level, because they sit on a panel of judges who will think differently than them and they are not the only person making the decision. And at that level, Judges don't bully attorneys. You don't go before the Supreme Court and expect to answer easy questions. You prepare to answer the tough ones and deal with the Judges.
Funny how the defense got almost none of those "tough questions" from him.
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On June 27 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:01 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. Oh please. Do you remember Scalia during the oral arguments of this case? He was committing basic logical fallacies and outright bullying the plaintiff while barely touching the defense. And yeah, social change is kinda a big part of his job. If we just let the majority decide stuff we'd still be able to own people. Part of the supreme court's job is to force social change when the majority becomes oppressive. Hey, I never said I agreed with him, but I don't think he is evil for having a specific view. Social change isn't part of his job, because he was appointed because he did not believe it was the governments role to enforce social change. That is how Judges work at that level, because they sit on a panel of judges who will think differently than them and they are not the only person making the decision. And at that level, Judges don't bully attorneys. You don't go before the Supreme Court and expect to answer easy questions. You prepare to answer the tough ones and deal with the Judges. Funny how the defense got almost none of those "tough questions" from him. Not really, they likely expected it, since the entire thing is a social issue and he is opposed to the federal court being involved in those.
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On June 27 2013 04:07 Tibbroar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:02 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:57 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. Shame he didn't feel like sticking to his guns yesterday then, eh? WTF are you talking about? He is one of the 4 who ruled for the law and wrote a dissenting opinion. Uh, no. He was one of the majority on the voting rights act idiocy. That is a separate case and the ruling in that wasn't that the voting right law wasn't allow. The ruling was that congress needs to update the voting rights law, rather than keep renewing the 50 year old version.
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On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome.
The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc.
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Hell its about time. This is a big step in the right direction, but there is still work to be done.
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On June 27 2013 00:21 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:20 Jormundr wrote:On June 27 2013 00:18 theking1 wrote:From CNN: Washington (CNN) -- In a dramatic slap at federal authority, a divided Supreme Court has struck down a key part of congressional law that denies to legally married same-sex couples the same benefits provided to heterosexual spouses. The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage as only between a man and a woman. The vote Wednesday was 5-4. "Although Congress has great authority to design laws to fit its own conception of sound national policy, it cannot deny the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment," said Justice Anthony Kennedy. Read the ruling The case examined whether the federal government can deny tax, health and pension benefits to same-sex couples in states where they can legally marry. At issue was whether DOMA violates equal protection guarantees in the Fifth Amendment's due process clause as applied to same-sex couples legally married under the laws of their states. The key plaintiff is Edith "Edie" Windsor, 84, who married fellow New York resident Thea Spyer in Canada in 2007, about 40 years into their relationship. By the time Spyer died in 2009, New York courts recognized same-sex marriages performed in other countries. But the federal government didn't recognize Windsor's same-sex marriage, and she was forced to assume an estate tax bill much larger than those that other married couples would have to pay. So, Windsor sued the federal government. A federal appeals court last year ruled in Windsor's favor, saying DOMA violated the Constitution's equal protection clause. "Today's DOMA ruling is a historic step forward for #MarriageEquality. #LoveIsLove," President Barack Obama's official Twitter account posted soon after the decision was handed down. Responses form other relevant individuals: Lady Gaga ✔ @ladygaga Let's go DOMA. Supreme Court lets make history & stand for MARRIAGE EQUALITY! #GetItDoneThisWeek #TheWhole WorldIsWatching What does an analyst think about the entire rulling:
The Supreme Court has dismissed a closely-watched appeal over same-sex marriage on jurisdictional grounds, ruling Wednesday private parties do not have "standing" to defend California's voter-approved ballot measure barring gay and lesbians couples from state-sanctioned wedlock. The ruling permits same-sex couples in California to legally marry. The 5-4 decision avoids for now a sweeping conclusion on whether same-sex marriage is a constitutionally-protected "equal protection" right that would apply to all states. The case is Hollingsworth v. Perry (12-144).
I am personally glad that homosexuals basicly now have the same rights as heterosexuals and can also get the same benifits as heterosexuals.I am long believer in equlity for all and this measures reestablishes the United states a country based on democracy and himan rights and puts it along with Netherlands and France at the forefornt of the battle for equlity.It is also a great victory for President Obama since he has always advocated same sex marriage in his speeches and political programs. Not quite, they only have the ability to get married in states which have already signed same sex marriage into law. But like states have to recognize each others' driver's licenses, they have to recognize each others' marriages too. Sure gay people will have to get married out of state so it's not perfect, but they can still get married. Exactly. If states were required to recognize out-of-state marriage licences, it would mean that if even one state in the US had gay marriage legalized (and I believe there are currently 12 such states) then gay marriage would essentially be legal everywhere.
Of course, some parts of the US would get really really really butthurt about that (stupid bigoted bible belt), which is probably why that hasn't happened yet.
Here's to hoping for states being forced to recognize out-of-state marriage licences in the future!
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On June 27 2013 04:30 biology]major wrote: wrong thread LOL! What thread were you intending to post in?
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On June 27 2013 00:45 Brainsurgeon wrote: Good on ya, US of A!
It takes us a while to realize that straight white christian males aren't the only ones who deserve rights rights, but we always figure it out eventually!
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On June 27 2013 04:33 DavoS wrote:It takes us a while to realize that straight white christian males aren't the only ones who deserve rights rights, but we always figure it out eventually! And some of us never realize that, and will always be loathsome bigots *cough cough bible belt*.
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I can't tell you how happy this makes me.
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On June 27 2013 04:33 DavoS wrote:It takes us a while to realize that straight white christian males aren't the only ones who deserve rights rights, but we always figure it out eventually!
I disagree on the white christian part.Many of the people that vigurously oppose gay rights are in fact african american and latino.this aint a white vs black thing.This is religious homophobia vs lgbt.And I think I have seen about the same number of african american pastors preaching lots of anti-gay hate as white pastors.not to mention the latinos who are mostly catholic and we all know the catholic churches' stance on gay marriage
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This is a great step but still a long way only 12 states that's 38 to go I hope soon it will be the norm for any state to have same-sex-marriage as it is to have human rights.
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On June 27 2013 04:45 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:33 DavoS wrote:On June 27 2013 00:45 Brainsurgeon wrote: Good on ya, US of A! It takes us a while to realize that straight white christian males aren't the only ones who deserve rights rights, but we always figure it out eventually! I disagree on the white christian part.Many of the people that vigurously oppose gay rights are in fact african american and latino.this aint a white vs black thing.This is religious homophobia vs lgbt.And I think I have seen about the same number of african american pastors preaching lots of anti-gay hate as white pastors.not to mention the latinos who are mostly catholic and we all know the catholic churches' stance on gay marriage I am going to have to agree with him that homophobia is generally an issue for all races equally. Everyone could stand to work on it.
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On June 27 2013 04:45 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:33 DavoS wrote:On June 27 2013 00:45 Brainsurgeon wrote: Good on ya, US of A! It takes us a while to realize that straight white christian males aren't the only ones who deserve rights rights, but we always figure it out eventually! I disagree on the white christian part.Many of the people that vigurously oppose gay rights are in fact african american and latino.this aint a white vs black thing.This is religious homophobia vs lgbt.And I think I have seen about the same number of african american pastors preaching lots of anti-gay hate as white pastors.not to mention the latinos who are mostly catholic and we all know the catholic churches' stance on gay marriage
Agreed. Prop 8 was passed in California partly because of huge minority turnout. There's a reason the Catholic Church officially sides with the GOP more often than not but goes against them when it comes to the immigration issue. Hispanic immigrants are far more conservative Catholics.
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On June 27 2013 04:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:45 theking1 wrote:On June 27 2013 04:33 DavoS wrote:On June 27 2013 00:45 Brainsurgeon wrote: Good on ya, US of A! It takes us a while to realize that straight white christian males aren't the only ones who deserve rights rights, but we always figure it out eventually! I disagree on the white christian part.Many of the people that vigurously oppose gay rights are in fact african american and latino.this aint a white vs black thing.This is religious homophobia vs lgbt.And I think I have seen about the same number of african american pastors preaching lots of anti-gay hate as white pastors.not to mention the latinos who are mostly catholic and we all know the catholic churches' stance on gay marriage I am going to have to agree with him that homophobia is generally an issue for all races equally. Everyone could stand to work on it. Indeed, one reason why Proposition 8 in California passed was because in 2008 there was a record turnout of African Americans who are generally as socially conservative as the whites of the GOP. If the GOP hadnt built its foundation on racial hatred they probably would have a majority of voters behind their socially retrograde policies.
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On June 27 2013 04:45 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:33 DavoS wrote:On June 27 2013 00:45 Brainsurgeon wrote: Good on ya, US of A! It takes us a while to realize that straight white christian males aren't the only ones who deserve rights rights, but we always figure it out eventually! I disagree on the white christian part.Many of the people that vigurously oppose gay rights are in fact african american and latino.this aint a white vs black thing.This is religious homophobia vs lgbt.And I think I have seen about the same number of african american pastors preaching lots of anti-gay hate as white pastors.not to mention the latinos who are mostly catholic and we all know the catholic churches' stance on gay marriage
Yeah pretty much this. It's a lot more than just white and/or christian.
Still, this is awesome. Really happy to hear this result. Don't think any more needs to be said about it other than that.
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This is great but I'm still disturbed that 4 voted against something so fundamental. I need to find their dissent and read it and see what crackpot basis they voted upon.
National opinion is moving more and more in favor of gay marriage. It's only a matter of time before the SCOTUS makes it fully legal and all the old bigots die off.
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On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be.
The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives.
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On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue.
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On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue.
I believe there ruling on that was simply that the people challenging the law did not have standing which from a purely legal standpoint I could agree with.
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On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue.
Their reasoning there was really cool actually. They ruled that private parties couldn't defend the enforcement of a law in court if they had no legal stake in the law. I imagine that the dissenters just straight up wanted to throw out prop 8 (I haven't read their opinions though) and didn't want to do something as subtle as the majority.
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On June 27 2013 03:58 alwaysfeeling wrote: It's a sad day when people jump for joy when one of the most basic of human rights isn't so narrowly stripped away. This is ridiculous that all of a sudden everyone becomes politically engaged over something that should ultimately be a non-issue. Instead of debating whether or not gay marriage should be legal, why aren't people asking why the state should have any say in peoples marital preferences to begin with? Maybe you should look into the history of marriage. One could ask what is really at issue -- preferential treatment -- and why it is that the institution even exists in the form that it does. HINT: it sculpts society in such a way as to consolidate power, at the cost of atypical individual lifestyle choices.
There is nothing wrong with celebrating victories that aren't ultimate, right? You do grin when you kill a scouting worker yes?
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On June 27 2013 03:58 alwaysfeeling wrote: why aren't people asking why the state should have any say in peoples marital preferences to begin with?
Because all the benefits of marriages are given by... the state. Anyone can live together and do some stupid ceremony and be "married" in spirit, they just don't get tax breaks or hospital visitation rights, etc.
There are always going to be opinions as to what is acceptable for marriages. Personally, I don't imagine gay couples when I think of marriage and as such I've never supported making it legal.
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On June 27 2013 05:12 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue. I believe there ruling on that was simply that the people challenging the law did not have standing which from a purely legal standpoint I could agree with. Yeah, people have a hard time wrapping their brain around the concept that you can't make laws or bring lawsuits for shit that does not directly effect you. Like people marrying people that are not you or someone you are married to.
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On June 27 2013 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue. Their reasoning there was really cool actually. They ruled that private parties couldn't defend the enforcement of a law in court if they had no legal stake in the law. I imagine that the dissenters just straight up wanted to throw out prop 8 (I haven't read their opinions though) and didn't want to do something as subtle as the majority. This is why I want to read Scalia's dissent in DOMA, because he normally objects to why the ruling is being happening, rather than the overall effect of the ruling. If it empowers the federal government to do things he doesn't think should happen, he normally dissents.
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On June 27 2013 05:15 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:58 alwaysfeeling wrote: why aren't people asking why the state should have any say in peoples marital preferences to begin with? Because all the benefits of marriages are given by... the state. Anyone can live together and do some stupid ceremony and be "married" in spirit, they just don't get tax breaks or hospital visitation rights, etc. There are always going to be opinions as to what is acceptable for marriages. Personally, I don't imagine gay couples when I think of marriage and as such I've never supported making it legal. So what you are saying is that just because you don't typically think of a gay couple when you think of marriage, therefore a lesbian should not have visitation rights to visit her partner who's sick and in the hospital? Because when you say you don't support making gay marriage legal, that is what you are saying: that gay couples do not deserve the same legal rights, benefits and responsibilities that you get to enjoy. Despicable.
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Funny how they named the thing "Defense of Marriage Act". As if traditional marriage is in any way affected by gay people having equal rights. Well, this is a great day. I am proud of you 'muricans
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On June 27 2013 05:28 Ventris wrote:Funny how they named the thing "Defense of Marriage Act". As if traditional marriage is in any way affected by gay people having equal rights. Well, this is a great day. I am proud of you 'muricans We're pretty proud of ourselves. This is something that I've kind of been tracking for a while and its great to see the US shift away from the old mode of thinking
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On June 27 2013 05:28 Ventris wrote:Funny how they named the thing "Defense of Marriage Act". As if traditional marriage is in any way affected by gay people having equal rights. Well, this is a great day. I am proud of you 'muricans Dawwww, ty Ventris ^_^ We're glad to finally be catching up to the rest of the world on this issue.
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On June 27 2013 05:01 On_Slaught wrote: This is great but I'm still disturbed that 4 voted against something so fundamental. I need to find their dissent and read it and see what crackpot basis they voted upon.
National opinion is moving more and more in favor of gay marriage. It's only a matter of time before the SCOTUS makes it fully legal and all the old bigots die off. Look no farther than supremecourt.gov. In our internet age, finding dissent isn't difficult at all. Let me paste you my favorite parts, as one agreeing in total with Scalia's dissent and with some parts of the chief justice's dissent.
The Court is eager—hungry—to tell everyone its view of the legal question at the heart of this case. Standing in the way is an obstacle, a technicality of little interest to anyone but the people of We the People, who created it as a barrier against judges’ intrusion into their lives. They gave judges, in Article III, only the “judicial Power,” a power to decide not abstract questions but real, concrete “Cases” and “Controversies.” Yet the plaintiff and the Government agree entirely on what should happen in this lawsuit. They agree that the court below got it right; and they agreed in the court below that the court below that one got it right as well. What, then, are we doing here? I recommend to all those Scalia haters to read through his dissent and ask themselves what role the Supreme Court has in our constitutional society. I, like Scalia, wonder what happened to ruling on cases where an aggrieved party had their constitutional rights violated by an act of congress? Or, did the majority justices, "have in mind one of the foreign constitutions that pronounces such primacy for its constitutional court and allows that primacy to be exercised in contexts other than a lawsuit." Why then bring before the court a person who won their case? I grant that the bulk of the disagreement is hard to see for the quick perusal, so I recommend the first 3-4 pages of the large-margin pdf.
I'll leave by quoting another part of the dissent, which helps illustrate why I think the ruling as so insane:
Now we are told that DOMA is invalid because it “demeans the couple, whose moral and sexual choices the Constitution protects,” ante, at 23—with an accompanying citation of Lawrence. It takes real cheek for today’s majority to assure us, as it is going out the door, that a constitutional requirement to give formal recognition to same-sex marriage is not at issue here—when what has preceded that assurance is a lecture on how superior the majority’s moral judgment in favor of same-sex marriage is to the Congress’s hateful moral judgment against it. I promise you this: The only thing that will “confine” the Court’s holding is its sense of what it can get away with.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 05:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:http On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote: [quote] Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote: [quote] Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue. Their reasoning there was really cool actually. They ruled that private parties couldn't defend the enforcement of a law in court if they had no legal stake in the law. I imagine that the dissenters just straight up wanted to throw out prop 8 (I haven't read their opinions though) and didn't want to do something as subtle as the majority. This is why I want to read Scalia's dissent in DOMA, because he normally objects to why the ruling is being happening, rather than the overall effect of the ruling. If it empowers the federal government to do things he doesn't think should happen, he normally dissents. This isn't true. Scalia is an activist judge, he's just in denial. Look at the ruling yesterday.
He pulls out the judicial activism card when it disagrees with his ideology. There's plenty of arguments of DOMA being an example of the federal government overstepping its grounds, yet he doesn't mention them at all. He's a huge hypocrite.
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On June 27 2013 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote:"The error in both springs from the same diseased root: an exalted notion of the role of this Court in American democratic society," he said.
Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue. Their reasoning there was really cool actually. They ruled that private parties couldn't defend the enforcement of a law in court if they had no legal stake in the law. I imagine that the dissenters just straight up wanted to throw out prop 8 (I haven't read their opinions though) and didn't want to do something as subtle as the majority.
The dissent on the Prop 8 ruling was written by Kennedy, the guy who wrote the majority opinion on the DOMA ruling. His reasoning was that political power comes from the people so propositions should be honored and protected. Of course, he also ruled on the DOMA case that it violated the equal protection clause.
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On June 27 2013 05:41 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote: [quote] Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 27 2013 03:17 PCloadletter wrote: [quote] Wait, a supreme court justice said this? Someone in government who wants to limit his own power instead of perpetually increase it? That's really impressive. It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue. Their reasoning there was really cool actually. They ruled that private parties couldn't defend the enforcement of a law in court if they had no legal stake in the law. I imagine that the dissenters just straight up wanted to throw out prop 8 (I haven't read their opinions though) and didn't want to do something as subtle as the majority. The dissent on the Prop 8 ruling was written by Kennedy, the guy who wrote the majority opinion on the DOMA ruling. His reasoning was that political power comes from the people so propositions should be honored and protected. Of course, he also ruled on the DOMA case that it violated the equal protection clause. Basically saying, "I should be able to hear that case, so I can deny it for different reasons."
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It was incredibly fucking stupid of you to post the opinions of a bunch of idiotic celebrities and other irrelevant fucks.
User was temp banned for this post.
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The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore.
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Pretty sad it was such a close vote. Still lots of opposition being portrayed in the media, so that's also a negative.
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On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore.
I feel like the lack of standing was just a method to try and dodge the political issue of it.
No one wanted to defend it so what the hell did they expect was going to happen? Clearly many people think it's an unconstitutional law and they should have just addressed it as such, as the majority did.
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On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore.
And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does.
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On June 27 2013 05:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:41 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:03 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:02 andrewlt wrote:On June 27 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:43 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:39 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 03:32 arie3000 wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote: [quote]
It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. 10 points for you. On June 27 2013 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Good job Supreme Court! Which 5 voted against which 4? Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan wrote/joined the majority opinion, Roberts, Scalia, Alito and Thomas wrote dissents (3 dissents with various joins). The full quote from the Scalia dissent (it is actually his abstract at the beginning) is: "This case is about power in several respects. It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case. And even if we did, we have no power under the Constitution to invalidate this democratically adopted leg- islation. The Court’s errors on both points spring forth from the same diseased root: an exalted conception of the role of this institution in America." Scalia has a long history of not touching social issues, and leaving stuff to the states or government. Apparently the voting rights of minorities in the South do not warrant a similar gradation of judicial restraint, unfortunately. Links to the opinions themselves (the DOMA case is fairly readable, and the Scalia dissent is fun) DOMA: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdfProp 8: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-144_8ok0.pdf Scalia believes that social issues should be avoided by the federal goverment. Although his writings are generally harsh, he is very pragmatic about change in the country. When asked if the people wanted a social change that he didn't agree with, he said they should elect a president that would appoint a judge would would vote for that change. He is not against change or government involvement with social issues, but he won't be the one to initiate it. On June 27 2013 03:32 Tibbroar wrote:On June 27 2013 03:22 TheTenthDoc wrote: [quote]
It would be if Scalia didn't have a nasty tendency to do the exact opposite. Hey now, be fair, he wants to limit power when he doesn't benefit from it. He's seriously the lowest form of scum, and thinks he's ten times smarter than he actually is. That isn't true. He wrote that knowing the outcome and wanted to point out the dangers of the government delving into social issues. There is no way to know how he personally feels about the law or change. That's awful convenient for him. Instead of like...doing his job he gets to tow the party line. Supreme Judges are generally not political by nature, look at the recent health care rulings. Scalia is very strict when it comes to his views on the constitution and what the federal government is allowed to do. He isn't averse to social change, but he doesn't see it as his job to be that change. Other Judges can do that. Remember that once the vote goes 5, the other four judges may decide to oppose it simply to be devils advocate and point out the pitfalls in further rulings. 5-4 votes are not as conflicted as people make them out to be. The Prop 8 ruling has a more interesting divide. It's Roberts joined by Scalia and 3 liberals. The dissent was Sotomayer and the other 3 conservatives. I am going to have to read that. That is super interesting that Scalia opposed the ruling on DOMA, but ruled that Prop 8 was a non-issue. Their reasoning there was really cool actually. They ruled that private parties couldn't defend the enforcement of a law in court if they had no legal stake in the law. I imagine that the dissenters just straight up wanted to throw out prop 8 (I haven't read their opinions though) and didn't want to do something as subtle as the majority. The dissent on the Prop 8 ruling was written by Kennedy, the guy who wrote the majority opinion on the DOMA ruling. His reasoning was that political power comes from the people so propositions should be honored and protected. Of course, he also ruled on the DOMA case that it violated the equal protection clause. Basically saying, "I should be able to hear that case, so I can deny it for different reasons."
It took me a little bit to get what you're saying. Yeah, that sounds about right since the majority opinion was basically to punt the issue back to the lower courts. I guess he wanted to do an actual ruling on the case. It was pretty interesting who he got on his side and who Roberts got on the other side, though.
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On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it.
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On June 27 2013 05:44 Mansef wrote: It was incredibly fucking stupid of you to post the opinions of a bunch of idiotic celebrities and other irrelevant fucks. why so harsh? He was just trying to include some background info and stuff.
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On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore.
Its funny because his description of the courts is exactly what I thought they were supposed to be . The lack of political incentive (job is for life) combined with their jurisdiction being tied to the desires of the people (writ of certiorari) means that the court is a really good institution to be a check on the legislative and executive branches.
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Mike Huckabee is such a tool.
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On June 27 2013 05:55 Vindicare605 wrote: Mike Huckabee is such a tool. yeah reading his tweet is kind of wtf. Of course the court thought they were above the votes, thats what they are there for...
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This is a great step for progress in America!
On a related note, i really wish the strive for equality would have us question the idea of patriachy itself instead of these all inclusive deals. As a person who disagrees strongly on the idea of religious marrige, and that of state-marrige, i never understood why the LGBT community even wants to be a part of the club to begin with (talking mostly religious marrige). I mean in Denmark SSM has been legal for a while, but only if you get married at the mayors office and not in church, now we are fighting for the right for LGBT's to marry in church, and im like, why would you want that? To basically be in a club with people who on a organizational level think you are something immoral? I just dont get it, we should instead fight for the abolishment of marrige in the traditional sense, and instead make all spousal relations include the exact same rights as everyone else, regardless of sexual/social/racial/religous/legal standing, but i guess that wont be before i die hehe.
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On June 27 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does. That is the endless debate that people have about the Supreme Court: Is it an agent for change? People debate it until the end of time and use phrased like "activist judges" and so on. There are good sides and bad sides to the argument. In general, from working the the legal field, activist judges are bad and generally cause more harm than good.
But Scalia is correct that they do not have supremacy over what is constitutional and what isn't. It is a terrible tool for change, since they are limited by their rulings and can only address issues that are brought before them. He would argue that it is the Representatives in Congress and the Executive branch's job to address these issues across the board, rather than bring each one up before the court for them to decide on its own merits.
You are going to see a lot more like these, where the Court tell says to Congress "Yo, you guys should be handling this shit, not us."
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On June 27 2013 05:58 TWIX_Heaven wrote: This is a great step for progress in America!
On a related note, i really wish the strive for equality would have us question the idea of patriachy itself instead of these all inclusive deals. As a person who disagrees strongly on the idea of religious marrige, and that of state-marrige, i never understood why the LGBT community even wants to be a part of the club to begin with (talking mostly religious marrige). I mean in Denmark SSM has been legal for a while, but only if you get married at the mayors office and not in church, now we are fighting for the right for LGBT's to marry in church, and im like, why would you want that? To basically be in a club with people who on a organizational level think you are something immoral? I just dont get it, we should instead fight for the abolishment of marrige in the traditional sense, and instead make all spousal relations include the exact same rights as everyone else, regardless of sexual/social/racial/religous/legal standing, but i guess that wont be before i die hehe.
religion =/= patriarchy. I know that in general the church has not been incredibly progressive on the issue of womens rights, but that doesn't mean that all religious people are misogynists. A lot of couples bothgay and straight want to have their marriage recognized by god and the avenue that they deem best to do that is through the church. Also I'm not sure why getting rid of patriarchy necessitates the destruction of marriage as a whole, its just a 2 person commit to love and live with each other.
Also this decision has nothing to do with churches recognizing SSM (many of them still won't in the US). It only has to do with how the state defines marriage.
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On June 27 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does. That is the endless debate that people have about the Supreme Court: Is it an agent for change? People debate it until the end of time and use phrased like "activist judges" and so on. There are good sides and bad sides to the argument. In general, from working the the legal field, activist judges are bad and generally cause more harm than good. But Scalia is correct that they do not have supremacy over what is constitutional and what isn't. It is a terrible tool for change, since they are limited by their rulings and can only address issues that are brought before them. He would argue that it is the Representatives in Congress and the Executive branch's job to address these issues across the board, rather than bring each one up before the court for them to decide on its own merits. You are going to see a lot more like these, where the Court tell says to Congress "Yo, you guys should be handling this shit, not us."
Well that would be ok if our congress was handling ANYTHING at the moment....
12% approval rate, 90% incumbency, how the fuck does that even happen? /sigh
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide.
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On June 27 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does. That is the endless debate that people have about the Supreme Court: Is it an agent for change? People debate it until the end of time and use phrased like "activist judges" and so on. There are good sides and bad sides to the argument. In general, from working the the legal field, activist judges are bad and generally cause more harm than good. But Scalia is correct that they do not have supremacy over what is constitutional and what isn't. It is a terrible tool for change, since they are limited by their rulings and can only address issues that are brought before them. He would argue that it is the Representatives in Congress and the Executive branch's job to address these issues across the board, rather than bring each one up before the court for them to decide on its own merits. You are going to see a lot more like these, where the Court tell says to Congress "Yo, you guys should be handling this shit, not us."
The thing is, in the modern era of politics the court is an excellent agent of change because of the way that is it insulated from regular politics. Without constituents or interests to keep happy they are fee to rule whatever way they fell best without having to worry about their job come november. Also most of this is like middle school civics, but I've always seen that the role of the court was to take on and decide constitutional questions. I definitely wouldn't want that sort of authority going to congress.
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On June 27 2013 06:02 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does. That is the endless debate that people have about the Supreme Court: Is it an agent for change? People debate it until the end of time and use phrased like "activist judges" and so on. There are good sides and bad sides to the argument. In general, from working the the legal field, activist judges are bad and generally cause more harm than good. But Scalia is correct that they do not have supremacy over what is constitutional and what isn't. It is a terrible tool for change, since they are limited by their rulings and can only address issues that are brought before them. He would argue that it is the Representatives in Congress and the Executive branch's job to address these issues across the board, rather than bring each one up before the court for them to decide on its own merits. You are going to see a lot more like these, where the Court tell says to Congress "Yo, you guys should be handling this shit, not us." 12% approval rate, 90% incumbency, how the fuck does that even happen? /sigh
Because everyone hates congress in general and thinks that they are a bunch of skanks who spend too much and argue over silly things, but when OUR congressperson holds up an important bill over a bunch of new spending for OUR district, we love it and reelect him or her.
But thats more for the USPMT
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12% approval rate, 90% incumbency, how the fuck does that even happen? /sigh
Holy shit :o And they will really sit through the entire term like this?
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The people opposing this had some pretty weird reasons. Complaining on the fact that the supreme court can overthrow laws and saying capitalism will die is quite funny. And really, really sad.
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On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide.
The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job."
As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism.
They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with.
I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory.
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Watching stuff like this unfold is kinda interesting considering in a couple of decades (hopefully sooner) all the idiots who try so hard to hold onto their bigoted beliefs will be viewed the same way as racists are now. It's so identical to racism it's not even funny.
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On June 27 2013 06:12 Stol wrote: The people opposing this had some pretty weird reasons. Complaining on the fact that the supreme court can overthrow laws and saying capitalism will die is quite funny. And really, really sad.
Yeah, the "capitalism will die because only heterosexual marriage produces consumers" both describes and extremely bleak purpose for having kids and is obviously grasping at straws.
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Pat Robertson
Allowing gay couples to access the same rights and benefits as straight couples is an attack on “the foundation of our society” led by “a few people [who] want to have their way of doing of sex affirmed by everybody else,” Robertson warned on the “700 Club” on Wednesday.
“They say it’s homophobia to believe that a marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. God is not a homophobe, God is almighty. He’s in charge of the world and this is the way he made it. Why? Because there isn’t any other way to have children. Two men do not have children, two women do not have children. That is the way God made it.”
With arguments as solid as Pat's I have no idea why people are even considering gay marriage in the first place.
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On June 27 2013 06:01 packrat386 wrote: religion =/= patriarchy. I know that in general the church has not been incredibly progressive on the issue of womens rights, but that doesn't mean that all religious people are misogynists. A lot of couples bothgay and straight want to have their marriage recognized by god and the avenue that they deem best to do that is through the church. Also I'm not sure why getting rid of patriarchy necessitates the destruction of marriage as a whole, its just a 2 person commit to love and live with each other.
Also this decision has nothing to do with churches recognizing SSM (many of them still won't in the US). It only has to do with how the state defines marriage.
Fighting patriarchy is not exclusively about women's right (though that is a important step in the right direction in getting there) but about the removal of social as well as governmental systems in which patriarchal thinking and governing is prevalent (such as traditional marriage). I think its important to realize that, two persons committing to live with, and love each other, is not marriage on its own, and should not be viewed as such. Marriage is a binding, in which both parties have obligations, both legal and morally(at least from a religious and or social point of view), which are different based on who in that binding you are (male/female). I am all for people finding love, but regardless of what box you feel you fit in, you should have the same rights as everyone else.
I know the decision has got nothing to do with the religious part of it, but that is where its going it seems (looking at Europe and Scandinavia) And while it's surely a step in the right direction, i mean that part is obvious, i just always wondered why is was such a issue to begin with, and why the discussion isn't about removing status and rights from existing marriage systems, instead of granting said rights to more people.
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On June 27 2013 06:20 Reason wrote: Pat Robertson
Allowing gay couples to access the same rights and benefits as straight couples is an attack on “the foundation of our society” led by “a few people [who] want to have their way of doing of sex affirmed by everybody else,” Robertson warned on the “700 Club” on Wednesday.
“They say it’s homophobia to believe that a marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. God is not a homophobe, God is almighty. He’s in charge of the world and this is the way he made it. Why? Because there isn’t any other way to have children. Two men do not have children, two women do not have children. That is the way God made it.”
With arguments as solid as Pat's I have no idea why people are even considering gay marriage in the first place. So Mr. Pat Robertson, since you believe in god so much, answer me this: where did Mrs. Kane come from? Did Kane commit incest with his own mother? Did Adam and Eve have an unmentioned daughter that gave birth to Kane's children? For all the weight you're giving to the word of the Bible, it sure has some logical flaws in it.
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On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s.
And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information."
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Pat Robertson is irrelevant in America. He should be treated as irrelevant, and ignored. Quoting him just makes him less irrelevant.
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On June 27 2013 06:20 Reason wrote: Pat Robertson
Allowing gay couples to access the same rights and benefits as straight couples is an attack on “the foundation of our society” led by “a few people [who] want to have their way of doing of sex affirmed by everybody else,” Robertson warned on the “700 Club” on Wednesday.
“They say it’s homophobia to believe that a marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. God is not a homophobe, God is almighty. He’s in charge of the world and this is the way he made it. Why? Because there isn’t any other way to have children. Two men do not have children, two women do not have children. That is the way God made it.”
With arguments as solid as Pat's I have no idea why people are even considering gay marriage in the first place.
And the first part of his argument could just as easily be leveled at heterosexuals. Straight couples want to ban gay marriage just to "have their way of doing sex affirmed by everybody else."
P.S. Anyone who uses the phrase "doing sex" has clearly not had sex in recent memory and I very much doubt it's in their near future.
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On June 27 2013 06:20 TWIX_Heaven wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:01 packrat386 wrote: religion =/= patriarchy. I know that in general the church has not been incredibly progressive on the issue of womens rights, but that doesn't mean that all religious people are misogynists. A lot of couples bothgay and straight want to have their marriage recognized by god and the avenue that they deem best to do that is through the church. Also I'm not sure why getting rid of patriarchy necessitates the destruction of marriage as a whole, its just a 2 person commit to love and live with each other.
Also this decision has nothing to do with churches recognizing SSM (many of them still won't in the US). It only has to do with how the state defines marriage. Fighting patriarchy is not exclusively about women's right (though that is a important step in the right direction in getting there) but about the removal of social as well as governmental systems in which patriarchal thinking and governing is prevalent (such as traditional marriage). I think its important to realize that, two persons committing to live with, and love each other, is not marriage on its own, and should not be viewed as such. Marriage is a binding, in which both parties have obligations, both legal and morally(at least from a religious and or social point of view), which are different based on who in that binding you are (male/female). I am all for people finding love, but regardless of what box you feel you fit in, you should have the same rights as everyone else. I know the decision has got nothing to do with the religious part of it, but that is where its going it seems (looking at Europe and Scandinavia) And while it's surely a step in the right direction, i mean that part is obvious, i just always wondered why is was such a issue to begin with, and why the discussion isn't about removing status and rights from existing marriage systems, instead of granting said rights to more people.
You're making marriage out to be something that is not by saying that the contract is different based on your gender because the concept of gay marriage changes all of that. I agree that as a whole the idea of "traditional marriage" in that the husband is the head of everything and the wife stays at home and cleans is patriarchal, but that's not a necessary part of marriage.
People want to be able to make a lasting commitment to each other as a romantic couple and marriage is a way to do that. A lot of people also believe that there is a religious aspect to such a union and they would like the blessing of the church for it. Not to mention that there are a whole host of reasons why it benefits the state to be able to treat the union of 2 people differently than just 2 separate people (inheritance, child custody, joint tax filing, etc). Lastly there is a fair amount of evidence to show that married people are happier and safer than their unmarried counterparts.
For the same reason that people want to reform the church's sexism, people want to reform marriage's patriarchy. Its not a perfect institution now, but we can fix the problems with it, and the cost of abandoning it as a whole is pretty high.
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On June 27 2013 06:20 Reason wrote: Pat Robertson
Allowing gay couples to access the same rights and benefits as straight couples is an attack on “the foundation of our society” led by “a few people [who] want to have their way of doing of sex affirmed by everybody else,” Robertson warned on the “700 Club” on Wednesday.
“They say it’s homophobia to believe that a marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. God is not a homophobe, God is almighty. He’s in charge of the world and this is the way he made it. Why? Because there isn’t any other way to have children. Two men do not have children, two women do not have children. That is the way God made it.”
With arguments as solid as Pat's I have no idea why people are even considering gay marriage in the first place. Who is this man and why do I give a shit what he says, or repeats because I have heard this shit before? What about couples that don't have babies? What do we do with them, unmarry them for not cranking one out in time. How about elderly couples who get married?
And God said don't judge too, but Christians are fond of forgetting that part.
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On June 27 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does. That is the endless debate that people have about the Supreme Court: Is it an agent for change? People debate it until the end of time and use phrased like "activist judges" and so on. There are good sides and bad sides to the argument. In general, from working the the legal field, activist judges are bad and generally cause more harm than good. But Scalia is correct that they do not have supremacy over what is constitutional and what isn't. It is a terrible tool for change, since they are limited by their rulings and can only address issues that are brought before them. He would argue that it is the Representatives in Congress and the Executive branch's job to address these issues across the board, rather than bring each one up before the court for them to decide on its own merits. You are going to see a lot more like these, where the Court tell says to Congress "Yo, you guys should be handling this shit, not us." Um, what other means are there of deciding constitutional questions? Congress is basically an arm of the populace, which means that they're prone to lobbying and don't have any necessary knowledge of the constitution to begin with. The Supreme Court is there so that when a majority of Representatives happen to be ignorant/stupid/bought enough to pass some heinous abomination of a law, someone can challenge it and have it thrown out by a group that doesn't answer to a quadrennial popularity contest.
Scalia thinks anyone who doesn't interpret the Constitution as the founders intended it is guilty of judicial activism. It should be pretty fucking obvious that a bunch of guys from the 1700's may not have been infallible and may need to have things added to or redacted from their document as better arguments/evidence come to the fore.
tl;dr if Congress pass a law legalizing murder, I fucking hope the SCOTUS would strike it down, "judicial supremacy" be damned.
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After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast.
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On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast.
Is this from the opinion itself or just from news articles? My intuition was just that the federal government had decided that DOMA couldn't legally restrict benefits based on the sexual orientation of those married. It has nothing to do with whether or not the federal government can legislate it or not.
Also its entirely possible for them just to say that any ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional, and all the states would have to follow suit.
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On June 27 2013 06:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:20 Reason wrote: Pat Robertson
Allowing gay couples to access the same rights and benefits as straight couples is an attack on “the foundation of our society” led by “a few people [who] want to have their way of doing of sex affirmed by everybody else,” Robertson warned on the “700 Club” on Wednesday.
“They say it’s homophobia to believe that a marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. God is not a homophobe, God is almighty. He’s in charge of the world and this is the way he made it. Why? Because there isn’t any other way to have children. Two men do not have children, two women do not have children. That is the way God made it.”
With arguments as solid as Pat's I have no idea why people are even considering gay marriage in the first place. Who is this man and why do I give a shit what he says, or repeats because I have heard this shit before? What about couples that don't have babies? What do we do with them, unmarry them for not cranking one out in time. How about elderly couples who get married? And God said don't judge too, but Christians are fond of forgetting that part. I interpreted the list of celebrities that disagree with the ruling to be sort of a "Shit List", so that we can know to disregard anything we may see any of these asswipes say.
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I could and would say the same about the first group of celebrities.
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On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible.
But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking.
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On June 27 2013 06:24 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:20 Reason wrote: Pat Robertson
Allowing gay couples to access the same rights and benefits as straight couples is an attack on “the foundation of our society” led by “a few people [who] want to have their way of doing of sex affirmed by everybody else,” Robertson warned on the “700 Club” on Wednesday.
“They say it’s homophobia to believe that a marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. God is not a homophobe, God is almighty. He’s in charge of the world and this is the way he made it. Why? Because there isn’t any other way to have children. Two men do not have children, two women do not have children. That is the way God made it.”
With arguments as solid as Pat's I have no idea why people are even considering gay marriage in the first place. So Mr. Pat Robertson, since you believe in god so much, answer me this: where did Mrs. Kane come from? Did Kane commit incest with his own mother? Did Adam and Eve have an unmentioned daughter that gave birth to Kane's children? For all the weight you're giving to the word of the Bible, it sure has some logical flaws in it.
Uhhhhh... I'm going to go ahead and face desk at your logic. Not only is this a red herring on your part(referring to incest in a question of gay marriage it also ignores the fact that in some way incest is basically always committed. Would you prefer Adam and Eve and their children not reproduced with each other at all and the human race does out? Probably not.
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On June 27 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does. That is the endless debate that people have about the Supreme Court: Is it an agent for change? People debate it until the end of time and use phrased like "activist judges" and so on. There are good sides and bad sides to the argument. In general, from working the the legal field, activist judges are bad and generally cause more harm than good. But Scalia is correct that they do not have supremacy over what is constitutional and what isn't. It is a terrible tool for change, since they are limited by their rulings and can only address issues that are brought before them. He would argue that it is the Representatives in Congress and the Executive branch's job to address these issues across the board, rather than bring each one up before the court for them to decide on its own merits. You are going to see a lot more like these, where the Court tell says to Congress "Yo, you guys should be handling this shit, not us."
Actually, the Court's decision addressed this and the majority agreed that it is not the Court's place to routinely consider every law. However, they did find that the Court had the responsibility to rule on the merits in *this* case because of the unusual scope and intent of DOMA to undermine the States' right to legislate matters of marriage and domestic relations and that a lack of a ruling would cause immense cost and harm for years to come.
As it it is inscribed on the SC building itself "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison 1803
But you can read for yourself: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdf
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On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking.
Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was.
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On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was.
Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government.
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On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway.
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On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway.
No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down.
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On June 27 2013 06:57 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway. No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down. Isn't that on ambiguous matters? I'd be curious to see where it says that.... I mean, States aren't shit if the feds can actually do whatever they want, so I highly doubt that the constitution says Federal Law trumps all.
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On June 27 2013 06:59 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway. No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down. Isn't that on ambiguous matters? I'd be curious to see where it says that.... I mean, States aren't shit if the feds can actually do whatever they want, so I highly doubt that the constitution says Federal Law trumps all.
Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, known as the Supremacy Clause, establishes the U.S. Constitution, federal statutes, and U.S. Treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The text provides that these are the highest form of law in the U.S. legal system, and mandates that all state judges must follow federal law when a conflict arises between federal law and either the state constitution or state law of any state.
The "supremacy clause" is the most important guarantor of national union. It assures that the Constitution and federal laws and treaties take precedence over state law and binds all judges to adhere to that principle in their courts. - United States Senate[1]
The Supremacy Clause only applies if Congress is acting in pursuit of its constitutionally authorized powers. Federal laws are valid and are supreme, so long as those laws were adopted in pursuance of—that is, consistent with—the Constitution. Nullification is the legal theory that states have the right to nullify, or invalidate, federal laws which they view as being unconstitutional; or federal laws that they view as having exceeded Congresses’ constitutionally authorized powers. The Supreme Court has rejected nullification, finding that under Article III of the Constitution, the power to declare federal laws unconstitutional has been delegated to the federal courts and that states do not have the authority to nullify federal law.[2]
Supremacy Clause
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Well that's not what that means actually, anyway I think... in any instance in which a federal law that is applicable under the federal powers granted to it by the constitution comes into conflict with a state law, then the federal law has supremacy.
It's how it works here and I'm pretty sure it's how it works in the US. It's only when there's a conflict that this applies.
To my knowledge, there are plenty of things for which the federal government has no authority whatsoever, and they would need to legally change the constitution to change that... And changing the constitution requires the approval of some State legislatures, not sure how many, maybe it varies depending on what's being done...
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On June 27 2013 05:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:49 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. And isn't it exactly the job of the Supreme Court to decide constitutional questions when they arise? Like that's literally the only thing it does. That is the endless debate that people have about the Supreme Court: Is it an agent for change? People debate it until the end of time and use phrased like "activist judges" and so on. There are good sides and bad sides to the argument. In general, from working the the legal field, activist judges are bad and generally cause more harm than good. But Scalia is correct that they do not have supremacy over what is constitutional and what isn't. It is a terrible tool for change, since they are limited by their rulings and can only address issues that are brought before them. He would argue that it is the Representatives in Congress and the Executive branch's job to address these issues across the board, rather than bring each one up before the court for them to decide on its own merits. You are going to see a lot more like these, where the Court tell says to Congress "Yo, you guys should be handling this shit, not us."
Well, that makes some sense, yet he seems to be saying that 'equal protection' as described under the 5th amendment doesn't really mean anything. Congress (and states) can pass laws that are not in line with the constitution, and therefore you have the Courts to do that job. And that is what happened in Romer vs. Evans, and Lawrence vs. Texas - a state, or even the majority of the population, can not impose laws that discriminate and deprive people from basic protection just because of their sexual orientation, since those laws are at odds with the Constitution. Scalia's dissent makes some sense in the beginning, but I got lost at the end, I just can't follow his logic. This post lines-out his dissent pretty well, and there are some contradictions in there, as well as plenty of over-the-top vitriol. There's even a part that the Chief didn't want to join, probably because it was particularly hateful of gays. http://www.scotusblog.com/?p=166093
To a previous poster, here you can find the opinions (and all the amicus briefs, transcripts of oral argument etc etc, just in case you're bored... The dissent is in the same pdf, below the majority opinion,
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/windsor-v-united-states-2/ http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/hollingsworth-v-perry/
http://www.scotusblog.com also has a flurry of posts (written by law profs and other legal scholars) explaining the different consequences of the rulings today. Scotusblog is pretty awesome, they have good analyses of difficult-to-grasp opinions...
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On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government.
If states rights was stomped on by the Civil Rights Act, then why did the court explictly state in their DOMA ruling that the federal law interfered with the states right to determine marriage? Is the application of states rights only applicable when you feel like it?
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On June 27 2013 07:00 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:59 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway. No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down. Isn't that on ambiguous matters? I'd be curious to see where it says that.... I mean, States aren't shit if the feds can actually do whatever they want, so I highly doubt that the constitution says Federal Law trumps all. Show nested quote +Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, known as the Supremacy Clause, establishes the U.S. Constitution, federal statutes, and U.S. Treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The text provides that these are the highest form of law in the U.S. legal system, and mandates that all state judges must follow federal law when a conflict arises between federal law and either the state constitution or state law of any state.
The "supremacy clause" is the most important guarantor of national union. It assures that the Constitution and federal laws and treaties take precedence over state law and binds all judges to adhere to that principle in their courts. - United States Senate[1]
The Supremacy Clause only applies if Congress is acting in pursuit of its constitutionally authorized powers. Federal laws are valid and are supreme, so long as those laws were adopted in pursuance of—that is, consistent with—the Constitution. Nullification is the legal theory that states have the right to nullify, or invalidate, federal laws which they view as being unconstitutional; or federal laws that they view as having exceeded Congresses’ constitutionally authorized powers. The Supreme Court has rejected nullification, finding that under Article III of the Constitution, the power to declare federal laws unconstitutional has been delegated to the federal courts and that states do not have the authority to nullify federal law.[2] Supremacy Clause
The last paragraph is extremely important. Marriage has been affirmed as a right of the states, and not one of the Federal government's constiutionally authorized powers. Federal laws that attempt to grant SS marriage to the entire country are not consistent with the Constitution UNLESS an amendment is passed that deems otherwise.
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On June 27 2013 06:59 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway. No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down. Isn't that on ambiguous matters? I'd be curious to see where it says that.... I mean, States aren't shit if the feds can actually do whatever they want, so I highly doubt that the constitution says Federal Law trumps all.
Care to quote that Klondike? The US Constitution trumps all. Federal law only trumps state law where the federal government has jurisdiction. There are two centuries of precedent giving states jurisdiction over domestic relation laws. A state law can only be struck down if it violates the Constitution such as Loving v. Virginia held. But keep in mind that ruling only came after a majority of states had already overturned laws banning interracial marriage. Legal experts predict that it could be another decade before the Supreme Court will take up a case to decide if same-sex marriage bans violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.
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On June 27 2013 07:16 Daethan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:59 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway. No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down. Isn't that on ambiguous matters? I'd be curious to see where it says that.... I mean, States aren't shit if the feds can actually do whatever they want, so I highly doubt that the constitution says Federal Law trumps all. Care to quote that Klondike? The US Constitution trumps all. Federal law only trumps state law where the federal government has jurisdiction. There are two centuries of precedent giving states jurisdiction over domestic relation laws. A state law can only be struck down if it violates the Constitution such as Loving v. Virginia held. But keep in mind that ruling only came after a majority of states had already overturned laws banning interracial marriage. Legal experts predict that it could be another decade before the Supreme Court will take up a case to decide if same-sex marriage bans violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. Thought so!
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On June 27 2013 07:15 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 07:00 farvacola wrote:On June 27 2013 06:59 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway. No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down. Isn't that on ambiguous matters? I'd be curious to see where it says that.... I mean, States aren't shit if the feds can actually do whatever they want, so I highly doubt that the constitution says Federal Law trumps all. Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, known as the Supremacy Clause, establishes the U.S. Constitution, federal statutes, and U.S. Treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The text provides that these are the highest form of law in the U.S. legal system, and mandates that all state judges must follow federal law when a conflict arises between federal law and either the state constitution or state law of any state.
The "supremacy clause" is the most important guarantor of national union. It assures that the Constitution and federal laws and treaties take precedence over state law and binds all judges to adhere to that principle in their courts. - United States Senate[1]
The Supremacy Clause only applies if Congress is acting in pursuit of its constitutionally authorized powers. Federal laws are valid and are supreme, so long as those laws were adopted in pursuance of—that is, consistent with—the Constitution. Nullification is the legal theory that states have the right to nullify, or invalidate, federal laws which they view as being unconstitutional; or federal laws that they view as having exceeded Congresses’ constitutionally authorized powers. The Supreme Court has rejected nullification, finding that under Article III of the Constitution, the power to declare federal laws unconstitutional has been delegated to the federal courts and that states do not have the authority to nullify federal law.[2] Supremacy Clause The last paragraph is extremely important. Marriage has been affirmed as a right of the states, and not one of the Federal government's constiutionally authorized powers. Federal laws that attempt to grant SS marriage to the entire country are not consistent with the Constitution UNLESS an amendment is passed that deems otherwise.
You're right, and it is very unlikely that Congress would vote to write SSM into law (they can't get anything done these days anyway). However, the way to marriage equality in all 50 states would be that SCOTUS simply rules that state laws that explicitly ban SSM are in violation of the 5th and 14th amendment. This would de facto mean that SSM is the law of the land in all states, and imply (not explicitly make) that marriage is a right for people of the same sex. It'll be 2-3 years before those cases reach The Court.
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On June 27 2013 04:27 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome. The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc. Thanks.
But I thought no one is immune to the constitution, IE: A state couldn't make slavery legal just because they wanted it. So if the supreme court, the highest court in the land says that the constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same sex marriage then wouldn't that have to trickle down and effect every state equally the same way Roe V. Wade made abortion legal throughout the country based off the right to privacy?
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On June 27 2013 07:15 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 07:00 farvacola wrote:On June 27 2013 06:59 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:57 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:56 Djzapz wrote:On June 27 2013 06:55 Klondikebar wrote:On June 27 2013 06:54 Wingblade wrote:On June 27 2013 06:45 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 06:39 docvoc wrote: After re-reading this. This also means that the federal government cannot make same-sex marriage legal. If the government cannot make something illegal, then it must leave it up to the states to ensure its legality. That is going to make same-sex marriage a really tough, long fight. If states rights are upheld for this, then states rights must be upheld later as well. This is going to get complicated, fast. I've always kinda felt that the point of states' rights was to allow states to tailor laws to the unique circumstances that befit a particular region and/or demographic within that state that may not be efficient for the entire country as a whole. If that's the point, then why should Texas be able to forbid SSM while New York permits it? Is not marriage a simple matter of freedom for consenting adults willing to enter into a mutually beneficial contractual agreement? It baffles me that this sort of universal question is delegated to individual states. Either all SS people should be allowed to marry or they shouldn't. I don't understand why crossing state lines changes the veracity of the legal argument, nor why SCOTUS can't rule that banning SSM is indefensible. But I'm not an American, so my understanding of American politics is probably lacking. Basically the Constitution states that things not expressly given to the federal government or implied to be under federal government control are given to the states. Marriage is included in this section of powers given to the states. If the Feds make a law next week that says SS marriage is legal everywhere, that would be a direct opposition to states rights and should be struck down just as the DOMA act was. Not true. Federal law trumps states. The Civil Rights Act stomped all over states rights. But if history has taught us anything, it's that our states are even worse at making laws than our federal government. I don't think so man... I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that the distribution of powers between the federal level and the States is pretty rigid in the US. Sometimes there is trespassing but the federal doesn't trump states, not easily anyway. No it's actually explicitly stated that Federal Law trumps state law. That's the reason the Civil Rights act wasn't immediately struck down. Isn't that on ambiguous matters? I'd be curious to see where it says that.... I mean, States aren't shit if the feds can actually do whatever they want, so I highly doubt that the constitution says Federal Law trumps all. Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, known as the Supremacy Clause, establishes the U.S. Constitution, federal statutes, and U.S. Treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The text provides that these are the highest form of law in the U.S. legal system, and mandates that all state judges must follow federal law when a conflict arises between federal law and either the state constitution or state law of any state.
The "supremacy clause" is the most important guarantor of national union. It assures that the Constitution and federal laws and treaties take precedence over state law and binds all judges to adhere to that principle in their courts. - United States Senate[1]
The Supremacy Clause only applies if Congress is acting in pursuit of its constitutionally authorized powers. Federal laws are valid and are supreme, so long as those laws were adopted in pursuance of—that is, consistent with—the Constitution. Nullification is the legal theory that states have the right to nullify, or invalidate, federal laws which they view as being unconstitutional; or federal laws that they view as having exceeded Congresses’ constitutionally authorized powers. The Supreme Court has rejected nullification, finding that under Article III of the Constitution, the power to declare federal laws unconstitutional has been delegated to the federal courts and that states do not have the authority to nullify federal law.[2] Supremacy Clause The last paragraph is extremely important. Marriage has been affirmed as a right of the states, and not one of the Federal government's constiutionally authorized powers. Federal laws that attempt to grant SS marriage to the entire country are not consistent with the Constitution UNLESS an amendment is passed that deems otherwise. Even if marriage is a right of the states a federal court can rule that certain practices would violate the 14th amendment. If a federal judge rules that it violates the 14th amendment to have marriage and not allow gays then they have functionally granted SSM unless the relevant states want to get rid of marriage entirely within the state.
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On June 27 2013 07:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:27 NovaTheFeared wrote:On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome. The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc. Thanks. But I thought no one is immune to the constitution, IE: A state couldn't make slavery legal just because they wanted it. So if the supreme court, the highest court in the land says that the constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same sex marriage then wouldn't that have to trickle down and effect every state equally the same way Roe V. Wade made abortion legal throughout the country based off the right to privacy?
The court didn't rule on whether offering marriage only to heterosexual couples was a violation of the 14th. They only ruled that it was a violation to withhold federal benefits to people with state sanctioned SSM's
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On June 27 2013 07:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:27 NovaTheFeared wrote:On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome. The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc. Thanks. But I thought no one is immune to the constitution, IE: A state couldn't make slavery legal just because they wanted it. So if the supreme court, the highest court in the land says that the constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same sex marriage then wouldn't that have to trickle down and effect every state equally the same way Roe V. Wade made abortion legal throughout the country based off the right to privacy?
This will come later, in another challenge. Because of procedural rules, it didn't come to the question in the prop-8 case. In 2-3 years, a proper case will be before The Court.
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Not sure why the government cares whether we're married or not in the first place.... Differences in taxation based on marital status is as dumb as based on any other factor of one's life. I've no problem letting the states make up their own minds (which I believe DOMA did permit), but personally, I don't see why the fed ought care about who I may or may not be bound to for life.
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I'm still wondering if some has found another case like this United States vs. Windsor.
Namely, the United States asks the district court in a Motion to Dismiss that the court should agree with the lower court ruling and not dismiss the complaint.
Then, after having gotten precisely that (Motion to Dismiss not to dismiss), the United States appeals the decision not to dismiss. Good laughs, I'm almost done reading all 70 pages.
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On June 27 2013 07:53 cLAN.Anax wrote: Not sure why the government cares whether we're married or not in the first place.... Differences in taxation based on marital status is as dumb as based on any other factor of one's life. I've no problem letting the states make up their own minds (which I believe DOMA did permit), but personally, I don't see why the fed ought care about who I may or may not be bound to for life. Its based on the "traditional family" where the man has an income and the wife stays at home. the tax system rewards you for having "family values" and if your wife makes significantly less than you (or nothing) you get a tax break because your money has to go to both of you and not just yourself. meanwhile if you and your wife make similiar amounts, you get punished.
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On June 27 2013 07:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 04:27 NovaTheFeared wrote:On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome. The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc. Thanks. But I thought no one is immune to the constitution, IE: A state couldn't make slavery legal just because they wanted it. So if the supreme court, the highest court in the land says that the constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same sex marriage then wouldn't that have to trickle down and effect every state equally the same way Roe V. Wade made abortion legal throughout the country based off the right to privacy?
Unfortunately the Supreme Court did *NOT* say that the Constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same-sex marriage though I can understand why the issue is confusing especially considering how the media is covering the decision. So here are a couple points:
1. You are correct that a state cannot legalize slavery. This is because it would infringe upon a person's rights as defined in the Constitution.
2. This ruling says that the federal government does not have the right treat one class of people (gay couples) differently than (straight people) because the state law (in this case New York) treats them equally. Section 3 of DOMA defined marriage for federal purposes as only one man and one woman (i.e. in conflict with NY).
3. Section 2 of DOMA still holds since it was not part of this case because the plaintiff was legally married in NY. Section 2 protects other states from recognizing marriages that are legal in another. For example, if a gay couple from Utah gets married in California, Utah does not have to treat them as married.
I think it is only a matter of time before the constitutionality of Section 2 is decided, but until then it is still up to the states to define marriage. Right now that is about three dozen states. Today's decision was a good step forward but we still have a long way to go.
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On June 27 2013 05:22 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 05:15 Romantic wrote:On June 27 2013 03:58 alwaysfeeling wrote: why aren't people asking why the state should have any say in peoples marital preferences to begin with? Because all the benefits of marriages are given by... the state. Anyone can live together and do some stupid ceremony and be "married" in spirit, they just don't get tax breaks or hospital visitation rights, etc. There are always going to be opinions as to what is acceptable for marriages. Personally, I don't imagine gay couples when I think of marriage and as such I've never supported making it legal. So what you are saying is that just because you don't typically think of a gay couple when you think of marriage, therefore a lesbian should not have visitation rights to visit her partner who's sick and in the hospital? Because when you say you don't support making gay marriage legal, that is what you are saying: that gay couples do not deserve the same legal rights, benefits and responsibilities that you get to enjoy. Despicable.
Sorta, yeah, basically. I also don't think people under a certain age (im not tied to any in particular), people who believe in and try to set up arranged marriages, or polygamous types should have the same legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities. Big deal. I'm unsure on whether mentally handicapped people should be denied them too, I'm not wedded to either position. If I don't want 14 year olds getting married do I want severely mentally deficient adults to? I dunno, don't think about it much.
Marriage is just an opinion
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On June 27 2013 07:35 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 07:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 27 2013 04:27 NovaTheFeared wrote:On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome. The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc. Thanks. But I thought no one is immune to the constitution, IE: A state couldn't make slavery legal just because they wanted it. So if the supreme court, the highest court in the land says that the constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same sex marriage then wouldn't that have to trickle down and effect every state equally the same way Roe V. Wade made abortion legal throughout the country based off the right to privacy? The court didn't rule on whether offering marriage only to heterosexual couples was a violation of the 14th. They only ruled that it was a violation to withhold federal benefits to people with state sanctioned SSM's Seems like semantics, but I guess that's what law is. Thanks for the clarification.
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On June 27 2013 07:56 Daethan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 07:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 27 2013 04:27 NovaTheFeared wrote:On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome. The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc. Thanks. But I thought no one is immune to the constitution, IE: A state couldn't make slavery legal just because they wanted it. So if the supreme court, the highest court in the land says that the constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same sex marriage then wouldn't that have to trickle down and effect every state equally the same way Roe V. Wade made abortion legal throughout the country based off the right to privacy? Unfortunately the Supreme Court did *NOT* say that the Constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same-sex marriage though I can understand why the issue is confusing especially considering how the media is covering the decision. So here are a couple points: 1. You are correct that a state cannot legalize slavery. This is because it would infringe upon a person's rights as defined in the Constitution. 2. This ruling says that the federal government does not have the right treat one class of people (gay couples) differently than (straight people) because the state law (in this case New York) treats them equally. Section 3 of DOMA defined marriage for federal purposes as only one man and one woman (i.e. in conflict with NY). 3. Section 2 of DOMA still holds since it was not part of this case because the plaintiff was legally married in NY. Section 2 protects other states from recognizing marriages that are legal in another. For example, if a gay couple from Utah gets married in California, Utah does not have to treat them as married. I think it is only a matter of time before the constitutionality of Section 2 is decided, but until then it is still up to the states to define marriage. Right now that is about three dozen states. Today's decision was a good step forward but we still have a long way to go. I was reading section two just now. If they overturned section 2 wouldn't that just require states that have SSM as illegal to recognize SSM performed in states that allow it?
Section 2. Powers reserved to the states No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship.
IE: If it said "states are allowed to decide whether same sex marriage is legal in their state and can choose to respect/not respect other states laws pertaining to that." and that was ruled unconstitutional then all states would have to respect SSM being either legal or illegal and not have a choice in the matter. However the wording of section two only seems to indicate whether state that don't have SSM need to recognize the marriage of individuals who get married in states that allow it.
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On June 27 2013 00:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 00:38 PassiveAce wrote: Fuck yeah
Was hoping it would be 9-0 though Nah, for 9-0's you need something super dumb, like copyrighting human DNA.
And even then you have Scalia writing a semi-dissent LOL.
Glad to see some good news out of SCOTUS. Stay classy Scalia. :D
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Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant.
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The rainbow horse doesn't seem so pointless now, does it?
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On June 27 2013 07:55 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 07:53 cLAN.Anax wrote: Not sure why the government cares whether we're married or not in the first place.... Differences in taxation based on marital status is as dumb as based on any other factor of one's life. I've no problem letting the states make up their own minds (which I believe DOMA did permit), but personally, I don't see why the fed ought care about who I may or may not be bound to for life. Its based on the "traditional family" where the man has an income and the wife stays at home. the tax system rewards you for having "family values" and if your wife makes significantly less than you (or nothing) you get a tax break because your money has to go to both of you and not just yourself. meanwhile if you and your wife make similiar amounts, you get punished.
See, I don't think it should be doing that, as the converse of it negatively affects single people. It's essentially hurting people of one group while aiding another. I cannot see why the government should benefit certain citizens of those not included do no injustice against the law. It should remain a negative force (against infringements on liberty and property), not a positive one.
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On June 27 2013 08:15 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 07:56 Daethan wrote:On June 27 2013 07:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 27 2013 04:27 NovaTheFeared wrote:On June 27 2013 03:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So if it's declared unconstitutional at a federal level, does that mean it trickles down and all the states have to respect the federal ruling of SSM being legal and it being against the constitution to discriminate against that?
Alternatively, if the states aren't required to immediately adapt to this ruling wouldn't it take one lawsuit in each state which would then make that court look at the principle established in this case and then automatically make SSM legal?
If anyone could clarify, that would be awesome. The ruling has nothing to do with that, no. States can choose to not allow SSM within their state and also not respect the SSM performed in other states. What this ruling does is that in the states that allow SSM, the federal government must consider them married for purposes of federal law such as estate tax, social security etc. Thanks. But I thought no one is immune to the constitution, IE: A state couldn't make slavery legal just because they wanted it. So if the supreme court, the highest court in the land says that the constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same sex marriage then wouldn't that have to trickle down and effect every state equally the same way Roe V. Wade made abortion legal throughout the country based off the right to privacy? Unfortunately the Supreme Court did *NOT* say that the Constitution doesn't allow discrimination against same-sex marriage though I can understand why the issue is confusing especially considering how the media is covering the decision. So here are a couple points: 1. You are correct that a state cannot legalize slavery. This is because it would infringe upon a person's rights as defined in the Constitution. 2. This ruling says that the federal government does not have the right treat one class of people (gay couples) differently than (straight people) because the state law (in this case New York) treats them equally. Section 3 of DOMA defined marriage for federal purposes as only one man and one woman (i.e. in conflict with NY). 3. Section 2 of DOMA still holds since it was not part of this case because the plaintiff was legally married in NY. Section 2 protects other states from recognizing marriages that are legal in another. For example, if a gay couple from Utah gets married in California, Utah does not have to treat them as married. I think it is only a matter of time before the constitutionality of Section 2 is decided, but until then it is still up to the states to define marriage. Right now that is about three dozen states. Today's decision was a good step forward but we still have a long way to go. I was reading section two just now. If they overturned section 2 wouldn't that just require states that have SSM as illegal to recognize SSM performed in states that allow it? Show nested quote + Section 2. Powers reserved to the states No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship.
IE: If it said "states are allowed to decide whether same sex marriage is legal in their state and can choose to respect/not respect other states laws pertaining to that." and that was ruled unconstitutional then all states would have to respect SSM being either legal or illegal and not have a choice in the matter. However the wording of section two only seems to indicate whether state that don't have SSM need to recognize the marriage of individuals who get married in states that allow it.
Yes and no. Section 2 only says that states that consider same-sex marriage illegal do not have to recognize marriages from other states. However, if it were to be overturned it would likely be on the basis of the Equal Protection Clause and not the Full Faith and Credit Clause. I'll try to explain both scenarios:
1. The Full Faith and Credit Clause basically says that states have to respect judgments, public acts, etc. of other states. DOMA was passed to make gay marriages an exception. If the Court overturned Section 2 on this basis then it would mean that Utah would have to recognize a California marriage, but wouldn't necessarily allow gay marriages to be performed in Utah.
2. The Equal Protection Clause says that states cannot deny anyone equal protection of the law. This and the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment was cited in the case that overturned interracial marriage bans in 1967 (Loving v. Virginia). If Section 2 was overturned on this basis it would be broader than scenario 1. It would say, Utah you cannot deny some couples the right to marry simply because one is gay and the other is straight.
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On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. Exuberant outbursts over topical rulings isn't a good way to show it, but I think it's good to express or at least harbor gratitude that there is a body of experts willing to strive to execute the role of their office in the spirit in which it was created, to protect and enforce what might be the most humane ruleset of governance yet devised.
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On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution. That is how they are supposed to think, doesn't mean they actually do. They almost all put their own beliefs into a ruling even if they hide it under legal justifications. That is why the court is so often divided along ideological lines. Especially Ginsburg, she frequently puts constitutionality questions aside and focuses on the pragmatic consequences of the decision. Some think that is good, of course.
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A great step in the right direction.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision.
We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality.
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On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. States rights gets a bad rep because it's often used to justify dodging things that the federal government mandates. States rights should only exist if they serve some sort of pragmatic purpose. Things that are issues of human rights shouldn't be down to the states to decide because they apply universally regardless of one's location. I swear, America's ethical dilemmas would be solved so much more quickly if they just nixed this concept that one state can think the death penalty is heinous and another think that it's justified. The answer to such a debate doesn't change based on where you live. Why then should it vary within a nation?
++ It would be splendid if the SCOTUS was more liberal in its interpretation of the constitution. It would be awfully convenient for the progression of precedent for them to take a more serious interest in pressing ethical debates rather than just shying away from them or ruling based on technicalities. Bite the bullet, I say.
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On June 27 2013 10:13 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. States rights gets a bad rep because it's often used to justify dodging things that the federal government mandates. States rights should only exist if they serve some sort of pragmatic purpose. Things that are issues of human rights shouldn't be down to the states to decide because they apply universally regardless of one's location. I swear, America's ethical dilemmas would be solved so much more quickly if they just nixed this concept that one state can think the death penalty is heinous and another think that it's justified. The answer to such a debate doesn't change based on where you live. Why then should it vary within a nation? ++ It would be splendid if the SCOTUS was more liberal in its interpretation of the constitution. It would be awfully convenient for the progression of precedent for them to take a more serious interest in pressing ethical debates rather than just shying away from them or ruling based on technicalities. Bite the bullet, I say.
I was talking about the constitution being old but I was unclear.
You picked a bad example because you can argue that the death penalty is against the constitution.
Now you are arguing for a vast power increase for the scotus.
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On June 27 2013 10:17 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:13 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. States rights gets a bad rep because it's often used to justify dodging things that the federal government mandates. States rights should only exist if they serve some sort of pragmatic purpose. Things that are issues of human rights shouldn't be down to the states to decide because they apply universally regardless of one's location. I swear, America's ethical dilemmas would be solved so much more quickly if they just nixed this concept that one state can think the death penalty is heinous and another think that it's justified. The answer to such a debate doesn't change based on where you live. Why then should it vary within a nation? ++ It would be splendid if the SCOTUS was more liberal in its interpretation of the constitution. It would be awfully convenient for the progression of precedent for them to take a more serious interest in pressing ethical debates rather than just shying away from them or ruling based on technicalities. Bite the bullet, I say. I was talking about the constitution being old but I was unclear. You picked a bad example because you can argue that the death penalty is against the constitution You can argue that, but you can also argue that it's an issue for the states.
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On June 27 2013 10:19 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:17 Lockitupv2 wrote:On June 27 2013 10:13 Shiori wrote:On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. States rights gets a bad rep because it's often used to justify dodging things that the federal government mandates. States rights should only exist if they serve some sort of pragmatic purpose. Things that are issues of human rights shouldn't be down to the states to decide because they apply universally regardless of one's location. I swear, America's ethical dilemmas would be solved so much more quickly if they just nixed this concept that one state can think the death penalty is heinous and another think that it's justified. The answer to such a debate doesn't change based on where you live. Why then should it vary within a nation? ++ It would be splendid if the SCOTUS was more liberal in its interpretation of the constitution. It would be awfully convenient for the progression of precedent for them to take a more serious interest in pressing ethical debates rather than just shying away from them or ruling based on technicalities. Bite the bullet, I say. I was talking about the constitution being old but I was unclear. You picked a bad example because you can argue that the death penalty is against the constitution You can argue that, but you can also argue that it's an issue for the states.
No.... the bill of rights is applied at the state (and federal) level, try again.
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I'm going to expound on what I said a bit earlier because I don't think it was understood as intended. The supremacy clause does exist, but there has been an ongoing fight between big government supporters and little government supporters since the U.S. constitution's inception. The fight between less state power and larger state power is part of this deal. If DOMA was struck down because the federal government cannot make laws on marriage because that infringes on the State's right to, then this was not struck down because of some inherent equality that much of the young generations seems to see, but older lawmakers and conservatives do not; the law would be struck down because it is an infringement on state's rights even with the supremacy clause, and thus a federal law stating that all states had to accept any equal-marriage act would be treated in the same way as DOMA and prop 8 were.
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On June 27 2013 09:38 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision. We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality. No, they didn't decide that the policy aspects were irrelevant. They simply decided the data being used was outdated. They kept the policies, but asked for current data. That's it.
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On June 27 2013 10:20 docvoc wrote: I'm going to expound on what I said a bit earlier because I don't think it was understood as intended. The supremacy clause does exist, but there has been an ongoing fight between big government supporters and little government supporters since the U.S. constitution's inception. The fight between less state power and larger state power is part of this deal. If DOMA was struck down because the federal government cannot make laws on marriage because that infringes on the State's right to, then this was not struck down because of some inherent equality that much of the young generations seems to see, but older lawmakers and conservatives do not; the law would be struck down because it is an infringement on state's rights even with the supremacy clause, and thus a federal law stating that all states had to accept any equal-marriage act would be treated in the same way as DOMA and prop 8 were. The state power issue has a second facet. Where is my state's power when activists can go to a neighboring state, agitate for gay marriage, then force my state to recognize them? Anyone alive during the Clinton years when DOMA was passed into law can remember that this was the activist's strategy. Once the state recognizes the union for state purposes and benefits, the next step is federal for their benefits. The people's representatives voted it in, 5 appointed justices clothed in black voted it out. For the purposes of thinking about judicial power, how would the joyous throng think if the majority had decided differently.
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On June 27 2013 10:28 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:20 docvoc wrote: I'm going to expound on what I said a bit earlier because I don't think it was understood as intended. The supremacy clause does exist, but there has been an ongoing fight between big government supporters and little government supporters since the U.S. constitution's inception. The fight between less state power and larger state power is part of this deal. If DOMA was struck down because the federal government cannot make laws on marriage because that infringes on the State's right to, then this was not struck down because of some inherent equality that much of the young generations seems to see, but older lawmakers and conservatives do not; the law would be struck down because it is an infringement on state's rights even with the supremacy clause, and thus a federal law stating that all states had to accept any equal-marriage act would be treated in the same way as DOMA and prop 8 were. The state power issue has a second facet. Where is my state's power when activists can go to a neighboring state, agitate for gay marriage, then force my state to recognize them? Anyone alive during the Clinton years when DOMA was passed into law can remember that this was the activist's strategy. Once the state recognizes the union for state purposes and benefits, the next step is federal for their benefits. The people's representatives voted it in, 5 appointed justices clothed in black voted it out. For the purposes of thinking about judicial power, how would the joyous throng think if the majority had decided differently.
This illustrates why the system works well (imo at least). States are often used as experiments before going to the federal level. In this way legislation can be tested and if anything unforeseen arises can then be modified or axed before subjecting the rest of the nation to a flawed bill. And considering some of the recent legislation in places like Arizona, it's a damn good thing that it doesn't trump federal law lol.
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On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. Supreme court has been playing its hand with social issues for years now. If enough justices think that something's a good idea, they'll search and search and write themselves in circles until they feel they've done enough writing, and make their ruling. This has been going on since at least the Warren Court (1950's) onwards.
On the topic of state rights, have you heard of "bald, unreasoned disclaimer?" Yeah, that's when the court decision pretends to hem the scope of the ruling without any rationale. The same arguments the court uses, namely that DOMA-type marriage definitions "[demean] the couple, whose moral and sexual choices the Constitution protects" will be used to extend the ruling to legalize gay marriage in states. I urge those of you confident in the assurances of the court that it won't touch state rights to listen closely in the next cases. Listen with open ears when the opinions cite language from this supreme court decision, and remember that some pundits believed that other language in the opinion would keep state laws intact. The rationale in this decision is equally applicable to state laws on marriage definition, and maybe Scalia was right when he said, "The only thing that will “confine” the Court’s holding is its sense of what it can get away with."
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On June 27 2013 10:28 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:20 docvoc wrote: I'm going to expound on what I said a bit earlier because I don't think it was understood as intended. The supremacy clause does exist, but there has been an ongoing fight between big government supporters and little government supporters since the U.S. constitution's inception. The fight between less state power and larger state power is part of this deal. If DOMA was struck down because the federal government cannot make laws on marriage because that infringes on the State's right to, then this was not struck down because of some inherent equality that much of the young generations seems to see, but older lawmakers and conservatives do not; the law would be struck down because it is an infringement on state's rights even with the supremacy clause, and thus a federal law stating that all states had to accept any equal-marriage act would be treated in the same way as DOMA and prop 8 were. The state power issue has a second facet. Where is my state's power when activists can go to a neighboring state, agitate for gay marriage, then force my state to recognize them? Anyone alive during the Clinton years when DOMA was passed into law can remember that this was the activist's strategy. Once the state recognizes the union for state purposes and benefits, the next step is federal for their benefits. The people's representatives voted it in, 5 appointed justices clothed in black voted it out. For the purposes of thinking about judicial power, how would the joyous throng think if the majority had decided differently.
You obviously didn't read the Court's ruling because it said just the opposite. No one's state is being forced to recognize same-sex marriage performed in another state because of Section 2 of DOMA... yet. In fact, how many millions of dollars were flooded into California to pass Prop 8 to write discrimination into that state's constitution, so spare us your outrage until your poor little state is really brought into the fold of liberty.
Federalism nor democracy grants the power to deny people of their rights. Not a president, not a legislature and certainly not a referendum. Thank god that some people in those black robes remember that, otherwise we'd still be drinking from separate water fountains.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 10:22 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 09:38 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision. We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality. No, they didn't decide that the policy aspects were irrelevant. They simply decided the data being used was outdated. They kept the policies, but asked for current data. That's it. That is the public policy aspect. They can do it if they want, but they can't turn around and decry activism the very next day. It is not an originalist position to invalidate a law based on out-of-date data, that's for Congress to decide.
They took a legislative stance. And then said taking a legislative stance is bad.
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Not a shocking revelation. Why is this even up for discussion?
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On June 27 2013 10:58 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. Supreme court has been playing its hand with social issues for years now. If enough justices think that something's a good idea, they'll search and search and write themselves in circles until they feel they've done enough writing, and make their ruling. This has been going on since at least the Warren Court (1950's) onwards. On the topic of state rights, have you heard of "bald, unreasoned disclaimer?" Yeah, that's when the court decision pretends to hem the scope of the ruling without any rationale. The same arguments the court uses, namely that DOMA-type marriage definitions "[demean] the couple, whose moral and sexual choices the Constitution protects" will be used to extend the ruling to legalize gay marriage in states. I urge those of you confident in the assurances of the court that it won't touch state rights to listen closely in the next cases. Listen with open ears when the opinions cite language from this supreme court decision, and remember that some pundits believed that other language in the opinion would keep state laws intact. The rationale in this decision is equally applicable to state laws on marriage definition, and maybe Scalia was right when he said, "The only thing that will “confine” the Court’s holding is its sense of what it can get away with."
The whole point of a court system is to override the will of the majority. If all they ever did was agree with the majority there would be no point to the institution.
What makes me want to vomit is that some people are making it out like the states are being victimized by this. I'm pretty sure the victim here is the minority that's been relegated to second class citizens and have had their rights stripped away to appease bigots masquerading as 'moral people.'
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On June 27 2013 11:05 Daethan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:28 Danglars wrote:On June 27 2013 10:20 docvoc wrote: I'm going to expound on what I said a bit earlier because I don't think it was understood as intended. The supremacy clause does exist, but there has been an ongoing fight between big government supporters and little government supporters since the U.S. constitution's inception. The fight between less state power and larger state power is part of this deal. If DOMA was struck down because the federal government cannot make laws on marriage because that infringes on the State's right to, then this was not struck down because of some inherent equality that much of the young generations seems to see, but older lawmakers and conservatives do not; the law would be struck down because it is an infringement on state's rights even with the supremacy clause, and thus a federal law stating that all states had to accept any equal-marriage act would be treated in the same way as DOMA and prop 8 were. The state power issue has a second facet. Where is my state's power when activists can go to a neighboring state, agitate for gay marriage, then force my state to recognize them? Anyone alive during the Clinton years when DOMA was passed into law can remember that this was the activist's strategy. Once the state recognizes the union for state purposes and benefits, the next step is federal for their benefits. The people's representatives voted it in, 5 appointed justices clothed in black voted it out. For the purposes of thinking about judicial power, how would the joyous throng think if the majority had decided differently. You obviously didn't read the Court's ruling because it said just the opposite. No one's state is being forced to recognize same-sex marriage performed in another state because of Section 2 of DOMA... yet. In fact, how many millions of dollars were flooded into California to pass Prop 8 to write discrimination into that state's constitution, so spare us your outrage until your poor little state is really brought into the fold of liberty. Federalism nor democracy grants the power to deny people of their rights. Not a president, not a legislature and certainly not a referendum. Thank god that some people in those black robes remember that, otherwise we'd still be drinking from separate water fountains. I can only stand by what I wrote about how easily arguments made here apply to cases challenging state law, and how this was important enough to the justices themselves that this was mentioned by the majority opinion and two dissenting opinions. I refer you to the second paragraph of mine that you quoted about why I believe this, as well as arguments presented by Scalia (With Thomas and Roberts) as to the why. If it was so obvious that state laws are just as secure today as they were yesterday, I wonder as to why justices devoted whole 3 paragraphs of the opinion on conflicting sides of that. We were told that striking down homosexual sodomy laws would not affect any formal recognition to any relationships homosexuals sought to enter.
On June 27 2013 11:25 MiX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:58 Danglars wrote:On June 27 2013 08:16 Lockitupv2 wrote: Probably one of the most frustrating days of my life. Ignoring the fact of massive misunderstanding of why the scotus ruled each way and the actual outcomes, people who wanted doma to be overturned are cheering for the scotus.
Lets be serious for a moment. No one, gay or straight, has any reason to thank anyone in office for these outcomes. There is only one thing you can thank and that is the Constitution. Well, I guess you could thank the people who wrote it.
The supreme court doesnt care about your campaign for gay marriage. It doesnt care about your equality. It doesnt even care if you are gay. The supreme court cares only about one thing which is making sure the laws/rules/etc are all valid under the constitution.
Also, it was a good day for state rights. If only there was a politician who believed greatly in state rights.
It gets a bad rep for being old (by some) but that hardly means it is irrelevant. Supreme court has been playing its hand with social issues for years now. If enough justices think that something's a good idea, they'll search and search and write themselves in circles until they feel they've done enough writing, and make their ruling. This has been going on since at least the Warren Court (1950's) onwards. On the topic of state rights, have you heard of "bald, unreasoned disclaimer?" Yeah, that's when the court decision pretends to hem the scope of the ruling without any rationale. The same arguments the court uses, namely that DOMA-type marriage definitions "[demean] the couple, whose moral and sexual choices the Constitution protects" will be used to extend the ruling to legalize gay marriage in states. I urge those of you confident in the assurances of the court that it won't touch state rights to listen closely in the next cases. Listen with open ears when the opinions cite language from this supreme court decision, and remember that some pundits believed that other language in the opinion would keep state laws intact. The rationale in this decision is equally applicable to state laws on marriage definition, and maybe Scalia was right when he said, "The only thing that will “confine” the Court’s holding is its sense of what it can get away with." The whole point of a court system is to override the will of the majority. If all they ever did was agree with the majority there would be no point to the institution. What makes me want to vomit is that some people are making it out like the states are being victimized by this. I'm pretty sure the victim here is the minority that's been relegated to second class citizens and have had their rights stripped away to appease bigots masquerading as 'moral people.' No, Mix, the Court is there to adjudicate disputes within the structure of the law. When those disputes involve laws thought to interfere with the aggrieved party's constitutional rights, should the claim be valid, they are able to rule in favor of the party and strike down portions of the law. The duty of the court is to uphold the constitution. Nine men are not appointed to override the will of the majority, they are intended to impartially rule regardless of where the majority stands. It has a specific need apart from what the majority thinks.
State's rights suffered a blow here, as I mentioned in the second paragraph of what you quoted. There is historical reason to fear that coming cases in states will draw from the rationale in the supreme court, paying no attention to the inadequately argued restrictions put upon the scope of the decision.
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I don't know if anyone cares but I and some colleagues submitted an amicus brief in this case on behalf of the opponents of DOMA/Prop 8 and I am stoked! This is a great day for civil rights. History in the making.
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On June 27 2013 12:35 sick_transit wrote: I don't know if anyone cares but I and some colleagues submitted an amicus brief in this case on behalf of the opponents of DOMA/Prop 8 and I am stoked! This is a great day for civil rights. History in the making.
That's awesome! Thank you for your civic efforts.
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"It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
A largely irrelevant ruling. It's merely a symptom of the larger forces at work, though it is a ruling I find strikingly repugnant and unsatisfactory.
Nonetheless, congratulations to the Progressives. I loathe you no less for it, but your techniques are unquestionably effective and your apparatus, without a doubt, far more advanced.
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On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it.
+ Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes.
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In the words of The Onion "What’s next? Using sound judgment and compassion to foster a more humane culture and system of government? This is pure lunacy.”
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On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes.
I love you. Thank you for this.
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Too many people are trying to extrapolate more meaning out of this decision than what was intended. Marriage is a State decision, and DOMA violated the State's rights to determine whether they extend tax benefits or not to gay couples. That is it, there is no stance being shown on gay marriage here, there is no rights being given or taken away, only the ability for the State to determine for themselves how to solve the issue without having a federal restriction telling them what to do
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On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes.
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet"
-Abraham Lincoln
On June 27 2013 13:37 RParks42 wrote: Too many people are trying to extrapolate more meaning out of this decision than what was intended. Marriage is a State decision, and DOMA violated the State's rights to determine whether they extend tax benefits or not to gay couples. That is it, there is no stance being shown on gay marriage here, there is no rights being given or taken away, only the ability for the State to determine for themselves how to solve the issue without having a federal restriction telling them what to do
So what was wrong about what happened?
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On June 27 2013 11:14 Nymzee wrote: Not a shocking revelation. Why is this even up for discussion? some guy already tried this line and it didnt go well, lol.
As someone who voted against Prop 8, Im happy that this happened.
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On June 27 2013 13:40 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 13:37 RParks42 wrote: Too many people are trying to extrapolate more meaning out of this decision than what was intended. Marriage is a State decision, and DOMA violated the State's rights to determine whether they extend tax benefits or not to gay couples. That is it, there is no stance being shown on gay marriage here, there is no rights being given or taken away, only the ability for the State to determine for themselves how to solve the issue without having a federal restriction telling them what to do So what was wrong about what happened? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion the correct decision was made, and nothing more. It just annoys me when people take this ruling either too seriously/personally or as if it's an historic, landmark decision
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On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
A largely irrelevant ruling. It's merely a symptom of the larger forces at work, though it is a ruling I find strikingly repugnant and unsatisfactory.
Nonetheless, congratulations to the Progressives. I loathe you no less for it, but your techniques are unquestionably effective and your apparatus, without a doubt, far more advanced.
I swear, gotta respect the apparatus that brought all this about. Disagree at the core with your opponent, oppose him at every step, but respect that boundless energy and effective tactics that culminate in victory after victory on social, fiscal, judicial, and constitutional issues.
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On June 27 2013 13:30 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. I love you. Thank you for this. I feel like I'm missing a joke here. Quotes can't be translated...?
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On June 27 2013 14:10 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 13:30 JinDesu wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. I love you. Thank you for this. I feel like I'm missing a joke here. Quotes can't be translated...?
The point was Aristotle wasn't speaking very posthumously.
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On June 27 2013 14:16 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 14:10 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 27 2013 13:30 JinDesu wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. I love you. Thank you for this. I feel like I'm missing a joke here. Quotes can't be translated...? The point was Aristotle wasn't speaking very posthumously. Yeah, obviously. I just assumed that the quote was speaking generally about having two classes of citizens which means it would have applicability here even though it wasn't initially said in relation to this
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On June 27 2013 10:28 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:20 docvoc wrote: I'm going to expound on what I said a bit earlier because I don't think it was understood as intended. The supremacy clause does exist, but there has been an ongoing fight between big government supporters and little government supporters since the U.S. constitution's inception. The fight between less state power and larger state power is part of this deal. If DOMA was struck down because the federal government cannot make laws on marriage because that infringes on the State's right to, then this was not struck down because of some inherent equality that much of the young generations seems to see, but older lawmakers and conservatives do not; the law would be struck down because it is an infringement on state's rights even with the supremacy clause, and thus a federal law stating that all states had to accept any equal-marriage act would be treated in the same way as DOMA and prop 8 were. The people's representatives voted it in, 5 appointed justices clothed in black voted it out. For the purposes of thinking about judicial power, how would the joyous throng think if the majority had decided differently.
If the people's representatives would have voted in that blacks can't vote, 9 appointed justices clothed in black would have voted it out quite quickly. And rightly so. It is their JOB to test laws against the constitution, which is the very core of the united states, and makes it a 'constitutional republic', to 'protect the people from the tyranny the majority', or words to that effect. If you don't like that, then get rid of the constitution and the constitutional court...
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On June 27 2013 13:47 RParks42 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 13:40 Roe wrote:On June 27 2013 13:37 RParks42 wrote: Too many people are trying to extrapolate more meaning out of this decision than what was intended. Marriage is a State decision, and DOMA violated the State's rights to determine whether they extend tax benefits or not to gay couples. That is it, there is no stance being shown on gay marriage here, there is no rights being given or taken away, only the ability for the State to determine for themselves how to solve the issue without having a federal restriction telling them what to do So what was wrong about what happened? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion the correct decision was made, and nothing more. It just annoys me when people take this ruling either too seriously/personally or as if it's an historic, landmark decision
Well, for the lady who brought the case and had her marriage federally mandated as 2nd tier, and was forced to pay a large amount of estate tax because of said law, it is pretty 'historic' and 'landmark'. And this goes for any gay married couple in the US who were/are fucked up the butt by a federal law explicitly discriminating against them.
No-one's really contending that it goes 'all the way' or is totally comprehensive, but it's a pretty important step. For people not affected and looking on, it's a small progression and not a watershed, but the ruling *does* directly affect gay people throughout the US, often notably.
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On June 27 2013 13:47 RParks42 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 13:40 Roe wrote:On June 27 2013 13:37 RParks42 wrote: Too many people are trying to extrapolate more meaning out of this decision than what was intended. Marriage is a State decision, and DOMA violated the State's rights to determine whether they extend tax benefits or not to gay couples. That is it, there is no stance being shown on gay marriage here, there is no rights being given or taken away, only the ability for the State to determine for themselves how to solve the issue without having a federal restriction telling them what to do So what was wrong about what happened? Absolutely nothing, in my opinion the correct decision was made, and nothing more. It just annoys me when people take this ruling either too seriously/personally or as if it's an historic, landmark decision
This is a landmark decision, because it recognizes that federally-dictated animus vs. homosexual people is not allowed under the 5th amendment.
On June 27 2013 13:37 RParks42 wrote: Too many people are trying to extrapolate more meaning out of this decision than what was intended. Marriage is a State decision, and DOMA violated the State's rights to determine whether they extend tax benefits or not to gay couples. That is it, there is no stance being shown on gay marriage here, there is no rights being given or taken away, only the ability for the State to determine for themselves how to solve the issue without having a federal restriction telling them what to do
You're heavily misreading misreading the opinion, since it was based on equal protection. The opinion only strays off a little bit into states right. DOMA however, was found to be unconstitutional under the 5th amendment, that was the main thrust of the majority opinion, and indeed in de closing remarks:
By seeking to displace this protection and treating those persons as living in marriages less respected than others, the federal statute is in violation of the Fifth Amendment.
Brushing this off as a 'its left to the states' doesn't do justice to the careful construction of argument in the opinion. There are quite a few passages related to how same-sex couple are discriminated against, and how this discrimination goes against the 5th amendment.
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On June 27 2013 11:12 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:22 PCloadletter wrote:On June 27 2013 09:38 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision. We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality. No, they didn't decide that the policy aspects were irrelevant. They simply decided the data being used was outdated. They kept the policies, but asked for current data. That's it. That is the public policy aspect. They can do it if they want, but they can't turn around and decry activism the very next day. It is not an originalist position to invalidate a law based on out-of-date data, that's for Congress to decide. They took a legislative stance. And then said taking a legislative stance is bad. Yes, they ruled that the law was based on bad, outdated data. They did not rule that the law was wrong or could not be in place. They found that the lawyers for the Government could not prove that the law was based on any current information of discrimination within a specific state. Because of this, they found that the Federal Government could not impose restrictions on a state without good cause.
They didn't impose a law or throw it out, only that it was poorly written and applied. Activism would be to throw out the entire law or impose a ruling that changed the law as a whole. If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism.
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On June 27 2013 14:23 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 14:16 Roe wrote:On June 27 2013 14:10 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 27 2013 13:30 JinDesu wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. I love you. Thank you for this. I feel like I'm missing a joke here. Quotes can't be translated...? The point was Aristotle wasn't speaking very posthumously. Yeah, obviously. I just assumed that the quote was speaking generally about having two classes of citizens which means it would have applicability here even though it wasn't initially said in relation to this 
Aristotle didn't say it at all.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aristotle#Misattributed
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United States22883 Posts
On June 27 2013 22:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 11:12 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 10:22 PCloadletter wrote:On June 27 2013 09:38 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 05:45 On_Slaught wrote: The dissents on the DOMA case were all based upon the SCOTUS not having jurisdiction to rule. This line especially, from Scalia sums it up well:
"That is jaw-dropping. It is an assertion of judicial supremacy over the people’s Representatives in Congress and the Executive. It envisions a Supreme Court standing (or rather enthroned) at the apex of government, empowered to decide all constitutional questions, always and every- where “primary” in its role."
To me this screams of hypocrisy and cherry picking times to apply such an attitude. He essentially took the opposite view in Bush v Gore. Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision. We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality. No, they didn't decide that the policy aspects were irrelevant. They simply decided the data being used was outdated. They kept the policies, but asked for current data. That's it. That is the public policy aspect. They can do it if they want, but they can't turn around and decry activism the very next day. It is not an originalist position to invalidate a law based on out-of-date data, that's for Congress to decide. They took a legislative stance. And then said taking a legislative stance is bad. Yes, they ruled that the law was based on bad, outdated data. They did not rule that the law was wrong or could not be in place. They found that the lawyers for the Government could not prove that the law was based on any current information of discrimination within a specific state. Because of this, they found that the Federal Government could not impose restrictions on a state without good cause. They didn't impose a law or throw it out, only that it was poorly written and applied. Activism would be to throw out the entire law or impose a ruling that changed the law as a whole. If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong and your understanding of judicial activism is completely wrong.
If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. This says it all. Roberts did not make an argument based on constitutionality, he made an argument based on the nuts and bolts of the law. If he had said the law was unconstitutional to begin with, which he certainly could've argued, then that would be within the bounds of judicial restraint. He didn't question the validity of the law. In fact, he said the law was good and necessary during its time. Then he said it's not proven necessary today, and that is a judgment of the VRA's criteria, not of its constitutionality.
The decision went exactly against what Scalia wrote about, and was a far more reaching example of judicial activism than the ruling on DoMA was. I understand you want to defend yourself, but you're absolutely incorrect on this. The VRA was extended in 2006 which means that the 109th Congress felt its criteria and evidence were still valid, and reauthorized it for another 25 years. This wasn't a 50 year old oversight, this was reviewed and extended 7 years ago.
He could have made a constitutionality decision. That would've been fine. But instead Roberts, with Scalia agreeing and speaking about it in very similar (if not bigoted) terms elsewhere, made a legislative argument, over the nuts and bolts of a law which was reviewed and renewed within the past decade. The point of all this is that they're all judicial activists. All 9 justices.
The majority's objections to the formula by which inclusion in the pre-clearance system is determined are theoretical — if the formula is old, it must be no good. Congress, on the other hand, documented scores of examples of blatant attempts to suppress or dilute minority votes during the 25 years before the 2006 reauthorization. The House and Senate held nearly two dozen hearings and amassed a 15,000-page record in making their determination that the states subject to pre-clearance should remain so because "intentional racial discrimination" in those jurisdictions remains "serious and widespread." The court's decision substitutes its judgment for Congress' in a matter that cuts to the core of our principles of political equality, and that is judicial activism at its worst. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-06-25/news/bs-ed-voting-rights-act-20130625_1_voting-rights-act-pre-clearance-chief-justice-roberts
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On June 28 2013 03:02 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 22:46 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 11:12 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 10:22 PCloadletter wrote:On June 27 2013 09:38 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 05:52 Plansix wrote: [quote] Bush v Gore was always going to end the way it did. The SCOTUS is never gong to decide or overturn an election. Ever. Even if it is flawed and broken, you are stuck with the election that you ran. The SCOTUS will never people sue because they don't like the outcome of the presidential election. That is a true slippery slope and they will never go near it. What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision. We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality. No, they didn't decide that the policy aspects were irrelevant. They simply decided the data being used was outdated. They kept the policies, but asked for current data. That's it. That is the public policy aspect. They can do it if they want, but they can't turn around and decry activism the very next day. It is not an originalist position to invalidate a law based on out-of-date data, that's for Congress to decide. They took a legislative stance. And then said taking a legislative stance is bad. Yes, they ruled that the law was based on bad, outdated data. They did not rule that the law was wrong or could not be in place. They found that the lawyers for the Government could not prove that the law was based on any current information of discrimination within a specific state. Because of this, they found that the Federal Government could not impose restrictions on a state without good cause. They didn't impose a law or throw it out, only that it was poorly written and applied. Activism would be to throw out the entire law or impose a ruling that changed the law as a whole. If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong and your understanding of judicial activism is completely wrong. Show nested quote + If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. This says it all. Roberts did not make an argument based on constitutionality, he made an argument based on the nuts and bolts of the law. If he had said the law was unconstitutional to begin with, which he certainly could've argued, then that would be within the bounds of judicial restraint. He didn't question the validity of the law. In fact, he said the law was good and necessary during its time. Then he said it's not proven necessary today, and that is a judgment of the VRA's criteria, not of its constitutionality. The decision went exactly against what Scalia wrote about, and was a far more reaching example of judicial activism than the ruling on DoMA was. I understand you want to defend yourself, but you're absolutely incorrect on this. The VRA was extended in 2006 which means that the 109th Congress felt its criteria and evidence were still valid, and reauthorized it for another 25 years. This wasn't a 50 year old oversight, this was reviewed and extended 7 years ago. He could have made a constitutionality decision. That would've been fine. But instead Roberts, with Scalia agreeing and speaking about it in very similar (if not bigoted) terms elsewhere, made a legislative argument, over the nuts and bolts of a law which was reviewed and renewed within the past decade. The point of all this is that they're all judicial activists. All 9 justices. Show nested quote +The majority's objections to the formula by which inclusion in the pre-clearance system is determined are theoretical — if the formula is old, it must be no good. Congress, on the other hand, documented scores of examples of blatant attempts to suppress or dilute minority votes during the 25 years before the 2006 reauthorization. The House and Senate held nearly two dozen hearings and amassed a 15,000-page record in making their determination that the states subject to pre-clearance should remain so because "intentional racial discrimination" in those jurisdictions remains "serious and widespread." The court's decision substitutes its judgment for Congress' in a matter that cuts to the core of our principles of political equality, and that is judicial activism at its worst. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-06-25/news/bs-ed-voting-rights-act-20130625_1_voting-rights-act-pre-clearance-chief-justice-roberts One might say that the concept of judicial activism is a subjective phrase. It is used by both parties when they don't like the ruling, regardless of the ruling itself. I have always viewed it as when a Judge rules either in opposition known, established law, knowing that they will be appealed and lose, or if they create law themselves. Neither happened in this case and the law was ruled to be invalid based on poor information.
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On June 28 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 03:02 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 22:46 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 11:12 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 10:22 PCloadletter wrote:On June 27 2013 09:38 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:03 Jibba wrote: [quote] What about the VRA yesterday? They literally said the reason is because social conditions have changed. If you claim to be against activism, you can't strike down a law for that reason. It's for Congress to decide. The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job." As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision. We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality. No, they didn't decide that the policy aspects were irrelevant. They simply decided the data being used was outdated. They kept the policies, but asked for current data. That's it. That is the public policy aspect. They can do it if they want, but they can't turn around and decry activism the very next day. It is not an originalist position to invalidate a law based on out-of-date data, that's for Congress to decide. They took a legislative stance. And then said taking a legislative stance is bad. Yes, they ruled that the law was based on bad, outdated data. They did not rule that the law was wrong or could not be in place. They found that the lawyers for the Government could not prove that the law was based on any current information of discrimination within a specific state. Because of this, they found that the Federal Government could not impose restrictions on a state without good cause. They didn't impose a law or throw it out, only that it was poorly written and applied. Activism would be to throw out the entire law or impose a ruling that changed the law as a whole. If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong and your understanding of judicial activism is completely wrong. If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. This says it all. Roberts did not make an argument based on constitutionality, he made an argument based on the nuts and bolts of the law. If he had said the law was unconstitutional to begin with, which he certainly could've argued, then that would be within the bounds of judicial restraint. He didn't question the validity of the law. In fact, he said the law was good and necessary during its time. Then he said it's not proven necessary today, and that is a judgment of the VRA's criteria, not of its constitutionality. The decision went exactly against what Scalia wrote about, and was a far more reaching example of judicial activism than the ruling on DoMA was. I understand you want to defend yourself, but you're absolutely incorrect on this. The VRA was extended in 2006 which means that the 109th Congress felt its criteria and evidence were still valid, and reauthorized it for another 25 years. This wasn't a 50 year old oversight, this was reviewed and extended 7 years ago. He could have made a constitutionality decision. That would've been fine. But instead Roberts, with Scalia agreeing and speaking about it in very similar (if not bigoted) terms elsewhere, made a legislative argument, over the nuts and bolts of a law which was reviewed and renewed within the past decade. The point of all this is that they're all judicial activists. All 9 justices. The majority's objections to the formula by which inclusion in the pre-clearance system is determined are theoretical — if the formula is old, it must be no good. Congress, on the other hand, documented scores of examples of blatant attempts to suppress or dilute minority votes during the 25 years before the 2006 reauthorization. The House and Senate held nearly two dozen hearings and amassed a 15,000-page record in making their determination that the states subject to pre-clearance should remain so because "intentional racial discrimination" in those jurisdictions remains "serious and widespread." The court's decision substitutes its judgment for Congress' in a matter that cuts to the core of our principles of political equality, and that is judicial activism at its worst. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-06-25/news/bs-ed-voting-rights-act-20130625_1_voting-rights-act-pre-clearance-chief-justice-roberts One might say that the concept of judicial activism is a subjective phrase. It is used by both parties when they don't like the ruling, regardless of the ruling itself. I have always viewed it as when a Judge rules either in opposition known, established law, knowing that they will be appealed and lose, or if they create law themselves. Neither happened in this case and the law was ruled to be invalid based on poor information.
Does it count if they basically force the legislature to create a new law? Cause the way it's being explained in this thread, Congress did it's job and the Supreme Court said "nope, we don't like this, redo it."
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On June 28 2013 03:37 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 03:02 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 22:46 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2013 11:12 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 10:22 PCloadletter wrote:On June 27 2013 09:38 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:25 Plans ix wrote:On June 27 2013 06:15 Jibba wrote:On June 27 2013 06:14 Plansix wrote: [quote]
The ruling on that basically said: "Congress, update you 50 year old voter registration law, rather than renewing it. Shit has changed. Do you job."
As I said before, your going to see a lot of more these where SCOTUS basically calls out the legislator for not getting shit done. They do not like overuling laws or being forced to rule on laws based on practices from +50 years ago. That is fucking judicial activism. They're making a judgment on the public policy aspects of a current law. Who's to say it needs to be updated? Upon what criteria? The criteria legislators deal with. I can't think of a more obvious example of judicial activism in recent memory. The ruling said that Congress could pass a law with the exact same rules as to voter restrictions, but they needed to be based on current information, not information from 50 years ago. That was the problem with the law, not that it was bad, but that congress couldn't get anyone to agree what the new rules should be, so they just renewed the old one. The SCOTUS told them no, you can't restrict states ability to set voting rules based on information from the 1960s. And when I say it said, it literally said "Congress can pass a law to protect voters rights and limit discrimination at the polls, but it must be based on current information." Do you have any idea how many old laws are still in effect based on old information or norms? There are time limits they can add to laws for that explicit purpose. It is not at all the job of a judicially restrictive bench to make that decision. We don't throw out old laws like that. It is 100% absolutely a case of judicial activism. They decided the public policy aspects of the law were no longer relevant. That's then making a judgment on public policy, not legality. No, they didn't decide that the policy aspects were irrelevant. They simply decided the data being used was outdated. They kept the policies, but asked for current data. That's it. That is the public policy aspect. They can do it if they want, but they can't turn around and decry activism the very next day. It is not an originalist position to invalidate a law based on out-of-date data, that's for Congress to decide. They took a legislative stance. And then said taking a legislative stance is bad. Yes, they ruled that the law was based on bad, outdated data. They did not rule that the law was wrong or could not be in place. They found that the lawyers for the Government could not prove that the law was based on any current information of discrimination within a specific state. Because of this, they found that the Federal Government could not impose restrictions on a state without good cause. They didn't impose a law or throw it out, only that it was poorly written and applied. Activism would be to throw out the entire law or impose a ruling that changed the law as a whole. If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. I don't know what to tell you, but you're wrong and your understanding of judicial activism is completely wrong. If they had ruled that the Federal Government NEVER had the ability to impose voting restrictions on a state, that would have been activism. This says it all. Roberts did not make an argument based on constitutionality, he made an argument based on the nuts and bolts of the law. If he had said the law was unconstitutional to begin with, which he certainly could've argued, then that would be within the bounds of judicial restraint. He didn't question the validity of the law. In fact, he said the law was good and necessary during its time. Then he said it's not proven necessary today, and that is a judgment of the VRA's criteria, not of its constitutionality. The decision went exactly against what Scalia wrote about, and was a far more reaching example of judicial activism than the ruling on DoMA was. I understand you want to defend yourself, but you're absolutely incorrect on this. The VRA was extended in 2006 which means that the 109th Congress felt its criteria and evidence were still valid, and reauthorized it for another 25 years. This wasn't a 50 year old oversight, this was reviewed and extended 7 years ago. He could have made a constitutionality decision. That would've been fine. But instead Roberts, with Scalia agreeing and speaking about it in very similar (if not bigoted) terms elsewhere, made a legislative argument, over the nuts and bolts of a law which was reviewed and renewed within the past decade. The point of all this is that they're all judicial activists. All 9 justices. The majority's objections to the formula by which inclusion in the pre-clearance system is determined are theoretical — if the formula is old, it must be no good. Congress, on the other hand, documented scores of examples of blatant attempts to suppress or dilute minority votes during the 25 years before the 2006 reauthorization. The House and Senate held nearly two dozen hearings and amassed a 15,000-page record in making their determination that the states subject to pre-clearance should remain so because "intentional racial discrimination" in those jurisdictions remains "serious and widespread." The court's decision substitutes its judgment for Congress' in a matter that cuts to the core of our principles of political equality, and that is judicial activism at its worst. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-06-25/news/bs-ed-voting-rights-act-20130625_1_voting-rights-act-pre-clearance-chief-justice-roberts One might say that the concept of judicial activism is a subjective phrase. It is used by both parties when they don't like the ruling, regardless of the ruling itself. I have always viewed it as when a Judge rules either in opposition known, established law, knowing that they will be appealed and lose, or if they create law themselves. Neither happened in this case and the law was ruled to be invalid based on poor information. Does it count if they basically force the legislature to create a new law? Cause the way it's being explained in this thread, Congress did it's job and the Supreme Court said "nope, we don't like this, redo it." The Supreme court has always decided the viability of laws and court rulings based on the constitution. In this specific case, the court said the law was totally fine as long as it was based on current information. Also, it didn't help that congress renewed it for 25 years, so it could be 75 years out of date next time. And invalidating a law isn't necessarily activism. They invalidated a copyright on DNA recently too.
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On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post.
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On June 28 2013 05:48 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post. Ok, that statement is pretty bad and doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the thread. This ruling didn't harm anyone and only provided that states now must recognize people as married if they are married in another state, regardless of their sexual orientation. No inequality was created by this ruling.
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On June 28 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 05:48 Kimaker wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post. Ok, that statement is pretty bad and doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the thread. This ruling didn't harm anyone and only provided that states now must recognize people as married if they are married in another state, regardless of their sexual orientation. No inequality was created by this ruling. I was referring to the false equivocation of a male/female pairing, and a male/male or female/female pairing. THAT was the equality I was referring to. The two aren't remotely equal, regardless of what the law may say.
I would have preferred to simply create a means of legally equating domestic partnership and marriage in terms of tax law and estates proceedings. It's a nuanced point, but I don't want to stop anyone from being with whoever they want to be with, that's not my problem. I view the entire issue as a ridiculous way to approach a situation which is a matter of pragmatism first and foremost. If you are a gay man with a, functionally "married", significant other and you want to ensure that your possessions and labor are afforded the same treatment as those of a "married couple" fine.
But in terms of definition, marriage between the two groups (heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage) are by their very natures, unequal and to label them with the same word is a horrible degradation of the language considering how simple the concept is.
TL;DR: I take issue with how it was justified and defined, not with the pragmatic outcome. I believe the way it was framed was intentional with the desired result being a cultural change. It's nothing but sly social engineering.
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On June 28 2013 06:08 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 05:48 Kimaker wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post. Ok, that statement is pretty bad and doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the thread. This ruling didn't harm anyone and only provided that states now must recognize people as married if they are married in another state, regardless of their sexual orientation. No inequality was created by this ruling. I was referring to the false equivocation of a male/female pairing, and a male/male or female/female pairing. THAT was the equality I was referring to. The two aren't remotely equal, regardless of what the law may say. I would have preferred to simply create a means of legally equating domestic partnership and marriage in terms of tax law and estates proceedings. It's a nuanced point, but I don't want to stop anyone from being with whoever they want to be with, that's not my problem. I view the entire issue as a ridiculous way to approach a situation which is a matter of pragmatism first and foremost. If you are a gay man with a, functionally "married", significant other and you want to ensure that your possessions and labor are afforded the same treatment as those of a "married couple" fine. But in terms of definition, marriage between the two groups (heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage) are by their very natures, unequal and to label them with the same word is a horrible degradation of the language considering how simple the concept is. TL;DR: I take issue with how it was justified and defined, not with the pragmatic outcome. I believe the way it was framed was intentional with the desired result being a cultural change. It's nothing but sly social engineering. Right. So if it was civil unions and we all had the same rights, you wouldn't care. It seems like a minor issue in the grand scheme of things.
Once again, no one was harmed. Marriage is still marriage. Unless you are using the argument that "gay people getting married means my wife and I can't get it on". At that point I can't help you really.
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Has it ever been explained how gay marriage causes more harm to heterosexual marriage than divorce?
I don't see laws being introduced banning divorce for the sake of the "sanctity of marriage".
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On June 28 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:08 Kimaker wrote:On June 28 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 05:48 Kimaker wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post. Ok, that statement is pretty bad and doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the thread. This ruling didn't harm anyone and only provided that states now must recognize people as married if they are married in another state, regardless of their sexual orientation. No inequality was created by this ruling. I was referring to the false equivocation of a male/female pairing, and a male/male or female/female pairing. THAT was the equality I was referring to. The two aren't remotely equal, regardless of what the law may say. I would have preferred to simply create a means of legally equating domestic partnership and marriage in terms of tax law and estates proceedings. It's a nuanced point, but I don't want to stop anyone from being with whoever they want to be with, that's not my problem. I view the entire issue as a ridiculous way to approach a situation which is a matter of pragmatism first and foremost. If you are a gay man with a, functionally "married", significant other and you want to ensure that your possessions and labor are afforded the same treatment as those of a "married couple" fine. But in terms of definition, marriage between the two groups (heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage) are by their very natures, unequal and to label them with the same word is a horrible degradation of the language considering how simple the concept is. TL;DR: I take issue with how it was justified and defined, not with the pragmatic outcome. I believe the way it was framed was intentional with the desired result being a cultural change. It's nothing but sly social engineering. Right. So if it was civil unions and we all had the same rights, you wouldn't care. It seems like a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Once again, no one was harmed. Marriage is still marriage. Unless you are using the argument that "gay people getting married means my wife and I can't get it on". At that point I can't help you really. Well I DID say that the ruling was largely irrelevant in my first post...so, I'm not exactly sure what we've having a conversation about then.
O_o?
I'm simply noting that it was poorly done. The strength of the foundation dictates the height of a structure, and this has a very shaky foundation because it degrades the language and obfuscates it, it doesn't clarify anything.
So...we agree-ish?
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Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language!
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On June 28 2013 06:22 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 06:08 Kimaker wrote:On June 28 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 05:48 Kimaker wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post. Ok, that statement is pretty bad and doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the thread. This ruling didn't harm anyone and only provided that states now must recognize people as married if they are married in another state, regardless of their sexual orientation. No inequality was created by this ruling. I was referring to the false equivocation of a male/female pairing, and a male/male or female/female pairing. THAT was the equality I was referring to. The two aren't remotely equal, regardless of what the law may say. I would have preferred to simply create a means of legally equating domestic partnership and marriage in terms of tax law and estates proceedings. It's a nuanced point, but I don't want to stop anyone from being with whoever they want to be with, that's not my problem. I view the entire issue as a ridiculous way to approach a situation which is a matter of pragmatism first and foremost. If you are a gay man with a, functionally "married", significant other and you want to ensure that your possessions and labor are afforded the same treatment as those of a "married couple" fine. But in terms of definition, marriage between the two groups (heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage) are by their very natures, unequal and to label them with the same word is a horrible degradation of the language considering how simple the concept is. TL;DR: I take issue with how it was justified and defined, not with the pragmatic outcome. I believe the way it was framed was intentional with the desired result being a cultural change. It's nothing but sly social engineering. Right. So if it was civil unions and we all had the same rights, you wouldn't care. It seems like a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Once again, no one was harmed. Marriage is still marriage. Unless you are using the argument that "gay people getting married means my wife and I can't get it on". At that point I can't help you really. Well I DID say that the ruling was largely irrelevant in my first post...so, I'm not exactly sure what we've having a conversation about then. O_o? I'm simply noting that it was poorly done. The strength of the foundation dictates the height of a structure, and this has a very shaky foundation because it degrades the language and obfuscates it, it doesn't clarify anything. So...we agree-ish? No not really, you seem to be talking about vapor and either, rather than substance and reality. The foundation of marriage is fine and the ruling obfuscates nothing. It only confirmed what we already knew, that all relationships between two adults are equal.
On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language!
I completely agree sir. Gobstoppers are candy and always have been. Snickers are a melding of several candies, creating impurities in its basic parts. Also it has nuget in it, which is not even a candy, but some sort of filthy filler.
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all of the moral and personal arguments aside, this ruling seems common sense to me? the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently, banning certain types of people from marriage fails in this. whether you agree with gay marriage or not, the supreme court has to strike down the law based purely on their ability to read.
the bit that most infuriates me about this kind of thing in the US though is that at least 8 of those 9 people were purely playing politics with their votes, and were completely failing to even attempt to do their job. so maybe assuming they are able to actually read the sentences in the constitution is too much.
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On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! This made me laugh. Such a perfect analogy. Why can't I ever come up with these comebacks? Are you by any chance a programmer? Because that analogy has resemblance to OOP.
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On June 28 2013 07:21 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! This made me laugh. Such a perfect analogy. Why can't I ever come up with these comebacks? Are you by any chance a programmer? Because that analogy has resemblance to OOP. A lot of things have that resemblance since its sort of how things in the real world work 
Seriously though, I could not get the idea of OOP for the longest time, and then once it clicked I suddenly saw the connection everywhere.
Also, I don't know why this has the be the States Rights and/or Activist Judges thread. I was sort of hoping this could just be a celebration and a bit of reasonable discussion, but it seems like its gotten way off track.
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On June 28 2013 07:21 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! This made me laugh. Such a perfect analogy. Why can't I ever come up with these comebacks? Are you by any chance a programmer? Because that analogy has resemblance to OOP.
Done very little programming, though I do have a math background. Currently: philosophy.
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the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently.
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On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. Yeah, that is incorrect. It can treat people differently, but can't take away basic rights. What those rights are and how they work is a question for the courts. Treating everyone the same generally is not an effective way to deal with most issues.
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On June 28 2013 09:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. Yeah, that is incorrect. It can treat people differently, but can't take away basic rights. What those rights are and how they work is a question for the courts. Treating everyone the same generally is not an effective way to deal with most issues. I disagree with your last point. Equality under the law is one of the hallmarks of a just and efficient society, and is appropriate in 99% of cases.
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On June 28 2013 10:06 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 09:55 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. Yeah, that is incorrect. It can treat people differently, but can't take away basic rights. What those rights are and how they work is a question for the courts. Treating everyone the same generally is not an effective way to deal with most issues. I disagree with your last point. Equality under the law is one of the hallmarks of a just and efficient society, and is appropriate in 99% of cases. That works in principle. And then after creating the idealist sentiment, you must make those laws function in the real world. At the end of the day, the lights must turn on. How we get that done is up to debate, but its has to get done.
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I'm simply noting that it was poorly done. The strength of the foundation dictates the height of a structure, and this has a very shaky foundation because it degrades the language and obfuscates it, it doesn't clarify anything. Marriage is simply the legal bonding of two consenting human beings. There is no language being degraded or obfuscated here.
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On June 28 2013 10:06 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 09:55 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. Yeah, that is incorrect. It can treat people differently, but can't take away basic rights. What those rights are and how they work is a question for the courts. Treating everyone the same generally is not an effective way to deal with most issues. I disagree with your last point. Equality under the law is one of the hallmarks of a just and efficient society, and is appropriate in 99% of cases.
I tend to agree with you, but how is this a point against allowing same rights to gay marriage as this is clearly enforcing equality under law?
EDIT: Brain fart, didn't read your first 6 words apologies.
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On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently.
Affirmative action is actually a pretty clear case of discrimination. Its more or less only allowed as a counterweight to all the other statistically proven discrimination already occurring.
On another note I have really never understood how progressive taxes has anything do to with discrimination. You are not paying more taxes because of your skin colour or sex, or anything else for that matter which can in any way be related to you as a person. Money as a concept is not a part of a person, more or less all currencies today has it's value directly derived from government regulation or law. Its pretty much the reason why destroying money is generally prohibited across the world, you only own the value which is ensured by the government, not the actual coins or bills in your hand.
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On June 28 2013 20:50 Stol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. Affirmative action is actually a pretty clear case of discrimination. Its more or less only allowed as a counterweight to all the other statistically proven discrimination already occurring. On another note I have really never understood how progressive taxes has anything do to with discrimination. You are not paying more taxes because of your skin colour or sex, or anything else for that matter which can in any way be related to you as a person. Money as a concept is not a part of a person, more or less all currencies today has it's value directly derived from government regulation or law. Its pretty much the reason why destroying money is generally prohibited across the world, you only own the value which is ensured by the government, not the actual coins or bills in your hand. Another major reason why destroying money is illegal is that in some cases the coins or bills could actually cost more to make than their face value. This would only really happen with coins, but take the penny for example. Pennies, for example, cost 2.41 cents to make in 2012 (source). The vast majority of this cost is the cost of the metals used to make them. This means that if it were legal to destroy money, you could melt down pennies and resell the copper and zinc for a profit.
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On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! Poor analogy. "Candy" is a meta-descriptive term for a broad category of an aggregated type which entails a number of specific variants.
Marriage, on the other hand, has a historical precedent of being a very specific thing in Western culture. Examples of institutional or socially accepted homosexuality which occurred were not referred to as marriage, though they could entail similar legal obligations and traditions. Still, never called marriage. To call the Civil Union of a gay couple marriage is false equivalency.
Edit: That being said, NOW it would an accurate equivocation (or potentially rather).
Not sure what you're trying to pull here. I'm not saying that both gay and straight "marriage" aren't functionally the same from a legal standpoint, I'm saying that there is a strange confabulation of language, and hence, the idea the language represents is effected as opposed to simply accepting a new idea; i.e. Civil Unions.
On June 28 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:22 Kimaker wrote:On June 28 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 06:08 Kimaker wrote:On June 28 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 05:48 Kimaker wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post. Ok, that statement is pretty bad and doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the thread. This ruling didn't harm anyone and only provided that states now must recognize people as married if they are married in another state, regardless of their sexual orientation. No inequality was created by this ruling. I was referring to the false equivocation of a male/female pairing, and a male/male or female/female pairing. THAT was the equality I was referring to. The two aren't remotely equal, regardless of what the law may say. I would have preferred to simply create a means of legally equating domestic partnership and marriage in terms of tax law and estates proceedings. It's a nuanced point, but I don't want to stop anyone from being with whoever they want to be with, that's not my problem. I view the entire issue as a ridiculous way to approach a situation which is a matter of pragmatism first and foremost. If you are a gay man with a, functionally "married", significant other and you want to ensure that your possessions and labor are afforded the same treatment as those of a "married couple" fine. But in terms of definition, marriage between the two groups (heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage) are by their very natures, unequal and to label them with the same word is a horrible degradation of the language considering how simple the concept is. TL;DR: I take issue with how it was justified and defined, not with the pragmatic outcome. I believe the way it was framed was intentional with the desired result being a cultural change. It's nothing but sly social engineering. Right. So if it was civil unions and we all had the same rights, you wouldn't care. It seems like a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Once again, no one was harmed. Marriage is still marriage. Unless you are using the argument that "gay people getting married means my wife and I can't get it on". At that point I can't help you really. Well I DID say that the ruling was largely irrelevant in my first post...so, I'm not exactly sure what we've having a conversation about then. O_o? I'm simply noting that it was poorly done. The strength of the foundation dictates the height of a structure, and this has a very shaky foundation because it degrades the language and obfuscates it, it doesn't clarify anything. So...we agree-ish? No not really, you seem to be talking about vapor and either, rather than substance and reality. The foundation of marriage is fine and the ruling obfuscates nothing. It only confirmed what we already knew, that all relationships between two adults are equal. Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! I completely agree sir. Gobstoppers are candy and always have been. Snickers are a melding of several candies, creating impurities in its basic parts. Also it has nuget in it, which is not even a candy, but some sort of filthy filler. What did you think law in this country has become? It's nothing but self justified dialectical systems anymore (for the most part).
On June 28 2013 19:29 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +I'm simply noting that it was poorly done. The strength of the foundation dictates the height of a structure, and this has a very shaky foundation because it degrades the language and obfuscates it, it doesn't clarify anything. Marriage is simply the legal bonding of two consenting human beings. There is no language being degraded or obfuscated here. No, NOW it is the legal bonding of two consenting (and I would add adult) human beings (or potentially). And that's my point.
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The government has no place deciding how and with whom a person can have a romantic/sexual relationship with as long both parties are consenting (which also implies is over the age of consent) and there is no abuse.
On June 28 2013 06:08 Kimaker wrote: But in terms of definition, marriage between the two groups (heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage) are by their very natures, unequal and to label them with the same word is a horrible degradation of the language considering how simple the concept is.
I don't understand why gay marriage and straight marriage are fundamentally different in your opinion. What is different about it that isn't none of the government's business?
On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:Show nested quote +the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. It's not about treating people equally, it's about equal opportunities. Sometimes treating people equally is unfair due to natural or uncontrollable differences such as income, where they live, gender, health, etc... There's a difference between inequality and discrimination. For example, the physical requirement to join the military is different for men and women. It would be unfair to treat them both equally. In the case for gay marriage, though, it would be unfair to treat homosexual relationships differently than hetereosexual relationships because there is no practical difference that would require them to be treated differently.
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On June 29 2013 00:17 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! Poor analogy. "Candy" is a meta-descriptive term for a broad category of an aggregated type which entails a number of specific variants. Marriage, on the other hand, has a historical precedent of being a very specific thing in Western culture. Examples of institutional or socially accepted homosexuality which occurred were not referred to as marriage, though they could entail similar legal obligations and traditions. Still, never called marriage. To call the Civil Union of a gay couple marriage is false equivalency. Edit: That being said, NOW it would an accurate equivocation (or potentially rather). Not sure what you're trying to pull here. I'm not saying that both gay and straight "marriage" aren't functionally the same from a legal standpoint, I'm saying that there is a strange confabulation of language, and hence, the idea the language represents is effected as opposed to simply accepting a new idea; i.e. Civil Unions. Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 06:22 Kimaker wrote:On June 28 2013 06:17 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 06:08 Kimaker wrote:On June 28 2013 05:55 Plansix wrote:On June 28 2013 05:48 Kimaker wrote:On June 27 2013 13:02 frogrubdown wrote:On June 27 2013 12:57 Kimaker wrote: "It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."- Aristotle
Little known fact: Aristotle was talking about 21st century gay marriage when he said this and it is entirely appropriate to quote him about it. + Show Spoiler +p.s. This isn't actually an Aristotle quote (and not just because he spoke a different language) and the man himself lived in a society where male-male sexual activity was institutionalized in the upper classes. Try targeting the sentiment, not the attribution. Also, I appreciate the focus you've placed on an ornamental aspect of my post. Ok, that statement is pretty bad and doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of the thread. This ruling didn't harm anyone and only provided that states now must recognize people as married if they are married in another state, regardless of their sexual orientation. No inequality was created by this ruling. I was referring to the false equivocation of a male/female pairing, and a male/male or female/female pairing. THAT was the equality I was referring to. The two aren't remotely equal, regardless of what the law may say. I would have preferred to simply create a means of legally equating domestic partnership and marriage in terms of tax law and estates proceedings. It's a nuanced point, but I don't want to stop anyone from being with whoever they want to be with, that's not my problem. I view the entire issue as a ridiculous way to approach a situation which is a matter of pragmatism first and foremost. If you are a gay man with a, functionally "married", significant other and you want to ensure that your possessions and labor are afforded the same treatment as those of a "married couple" fine. But in terms of definition, marriage between the two groups (heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage) are by their very natures, unequal and to label them with the same word is a horrible degradation of the language considering how simple the concept is. TL;DR: I take issue with how it was justified and defined, not with the pragmatic outcome. I believe the way it was framed was intentional with the desired result being a cultural change. It's nothing but sly social engineering. Right. So if it was civil unions and we all had the same rights, you wouldn't care. It seems like a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Once again, no one was harmed. Marriage is still marriage. Unless you are using the argument that "gay people getting married means my wife and I can't get it on". At that point I can't help you really. Well I DID say that the ruling was largely irrelevant in my first post...so, I'm not exactly sure what we've having a conversation about then. O_o? I'm simply noting that it was poorly done. The strength of the foundation dictates the height of a structure, and this has a very shaky foundation because it degrades the language and obfuscates it, it doesn't clarify anything. So...we agree-ish? No not really, you seem to be talking about vapor and either, rather than substance and reality. The foundation of marriage is fine and the ruling obfuscates nothing. It only confirmed what we already knew, that all relationships between two adults are equal. On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! I completely agree sir. Gobstoppers are candy and always have been. Snickers are a melding of several candies, creating impurities in its basic parts. Also it has nuget in it, which is not even a candy, but some sort of filthy filler. What did you think law in this country has become? It's nothing but self justified dialectical systems anymore (for the most part). Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 19:29 Thorakh wrote:I'm simply noting that it was poorly done. The strength of the foundation dictates the height of a structure, and this has a very shaky foundation because it degrades the language and obfuscates it, it doesn't clarify anything. Marriage is simply the legal bonding of two consenting human beings. There is no language being degraded or obfuscated here. No, NOW it is the legal bonding of two consenting (and I would add adult) human beings (or potentially). And that's my point.
K so you are quibbling about using the term "marriage" to refer to homosexual marriages. You want "marriage" as a term to ony include man-woman relationships, based loosely on some idea that it's historical and important, etc.
As someone looking on to your discussion, your argument seems really weak. There's no reason "marriage" as a term can't expand to include homosexual marriage? Says who?
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On June 29 2013 00:17 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! Poor analogy. "Candy" is a meta-descriptive term for a broad category of an aggregated type which entails a number of specific variants. Marriage, on the other hand, has a historical precedent of being a very specific thing in Western culture. Examples of institutional or socially accepted homosexuality which occurred were not referred to as marriage, though they could entail similar legal obligations and traditions. Still, never called marriage. To call the Civil Union of a gay couple marriage is false equivalency. Edit: That being said, NOW it would an accurate equivocation (or potentially rather). Not sure what you're trying to pull here. I'm not saying that both gay and straight "marriage" aren't functionally the same from a legal standpoint, I'm saying that there is a strange confabulation of language, and hence, the idea the language represents is effected as opposed to simply accepting a new idea; i.e. Civil Unions.
Terms you should consider looking up before using them again: "meta", "entails", "confabulation", "effected".
Words used awkwardly though not straightforwardly incorrectly as above: "equivocation", "variant".
Anyone else find it hilarious that the great defender of language, Kimaker, not only misquoted Aristotle but then goes on to misuse as many big words as he can find in an attempt to bully others he assumed wouldn't understand. Guess 'marriage' is the only word whose dignity we must protect.[1]
Lucky for me, I'm approaching my 1000th post and won't be wasting it with you. Sorry, rest of the thread.
[1]+ Show Spoiler +This is not a concession that heterosexuality was ever part of the meaning of 'marriage'. That claim is at worst absurd, and at best not nearly sufficiently supported by the reasons offered.
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On June 29 2013 02:51 frogrubdown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 00:17 Kimaker wrote:On June 28 2013 06:26 frogrubdown wrote: Snickers aren't the same thing as Gobstoppers and to call them both 'candy' is a horrible degradation of language! Poor analogy. "Candy" is a meta-descriptive term for a broad category of an aggregated type which entails a number of specific variants. Marriage, on the other hand, has a historical precedent of being a very specific thing in Western culture. Examples of institutional or socially accepted homosexuality which occurred were not referred to as marriage, though they could entail similar legal obligations and traditions. Still, never called marriage. To call the Civil Union of a gay couple marriage is false equivalency. Edit: That being said, NOW it would an accurate equivocation (or potentially rather). Not sure what you're trying to pull here. I'm not saying that both gay and straight "marriage" aren't functionally the same from a legal standpoint, I'm saying that there is a strange confabulation of language, and hence, the idea the language represents is effected as opposed to simply accepting a new idea; i.e. Civil Unions. Terms you should consider looking up before using them again: "meta", "entails", "confabulation", "effected". Words used awkwardly though not straightforwardly incorrectly as above: "equivocation", "variant". Anyone else find it hilarious that the great defender of language, Kimaker, not only misquoted Aristotle but then goes on to misuse as many big words as he can find in an attempt to bully others he assumed wouldn't understand. Guess 'marriage' is the only word whose dignity we must protect.[1] Lucky for me, I'm approaching my 1000th post and won't be wasting it with you. Sorry, rest of the thread. [1] + Show Spoiler +This is not a concession that heterosexuality was ever part of the meaning of 'marriage'. That claim is at worst absurd, and at best not nearly sufficiently supported by the reasons offered. Missing the humor, derp.
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Those decisions are pretty ridiculous, but were the obvious end-result.
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On June 28 2013 20:50 Stol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. On another note I have really never understood how progressive taxes has anything do to with discrimination. You are not paying more taxes because of your skin colour or sex, or anything else for that matter which can in any way be related to you as a person. Money as a concept is not a part of a person, more or less all currencies today has it's value directly derived from government regulation or law. Its pretty much the reason why destroying money is generally prohibited across the world, you only own the value which is ensured by the government, not the actual coins or bills in your hand.
Thats not true at all. You are saying you can tax certain individuals for any reason and have it not be discrimination.
Congress can not say "Lets only tax the team liquid store and no one else"
Progressive Taxing is arguably unconstitutional.
Your last paragraph explains why getting off the gold standard and having a federal reserve is dumb.
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On June 29 2013 02:02 Cenecia wrote:
It's not about treating people equally, it's about equal opportunities. Sometimes treating people equally is unfair due to natural or uncontrollable differences such as income, where they live, gender, health, etc... There's a difference between inequality and discrimination. For example, the physical requirement to join the military is different for men and women. It would be unfair to treat them both equally. In the case for gay marriage, though, it would be unfair to treat homosexual relationships differently than hetereosexual relationships because there is no practical difference that would require them to be treated differently.
Wow this is some serious double think.
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Frankly, I don't know why polygamy isn't recognized either. Bestiality and incest are —per se— unrelated to marriage though, and aside from that, have obvious reasons why they should be discouraged and be illegal. There's no significant obvious reason why polygamy or homosexual marriage shouldn't be allowed.
Polygamy can perhaps somewhat be a larger catalyst for spreading disease, but I wouldn't think it'd be much, especially when the polyamorous group stays committed to only that group, not intertwined with other individuals or groups —which as far as I know is the whole point polygamy prevents. So if anything, it's polyamory that is the problem, and polygamy helps fix that problem.
On June 29 2013 00:16 codonbyte wrote: Pennies, for example, cost 2.41 cents to make in 2012 ( source). The vast majority of this cost is the cost of the metals used to make them. This means that if it were legal to destroy money, you could melt down pennies and resell the copper and zinc for a profit. saving space:+ Show Spoiler + Not quite. Much of the cost is in the metal, but most of it is in the machinery and power and labor time used to shape and otherwise create the coin. The value of modern pennies are significantly less than $0.01, or else like you said people would be doing it —despite it being illegal. There was a case (or more) in the past where USA had currency worth more than it's face value though and were melted down to resell; the biggest of which I can think of was old nickels a while back.
That said, old pennies may be what the Snopes article is talking about, but as far as I know it's hard to find a significant amount of pennies that are old enough (pre-1982). Particularly to find enough for it to be worth it also without getting caught (since if the pennies were common it would be much easier to avoid getting caught) In Canada it may have been a bit easier though, since the metal value of pennies wasn't lowered to a really low value as quickly as it was in the USA. (pre-1999) However, Canada did lower the value of it's penny far more frequently, so that would have made it much harder at points in the past before copper increased as much in value.
...I don't know why I'm talking about this is a thread about marriage
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Next step is taking another case to the supreme court to get it to make a ruling that state governments must allow gay marriage. That's the next fight since it has already succeeded in California. Californians amended their constitution to say no gay marriage and the 9th circuit court said an amendment to a constitution was unconstitutional.
Any and all anti-gay marriage laws passed by referendum or legislature in any states are very vulnerable to a legal challenge now, since the Supreme Court showed majority support for gay marriage in the DOMA decision, and also support for lower courts striking down anti-gay marriage laws by declining to overturn the 9th Circuit in the Prop 8 case.
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On June 29 2013 13:20 DeepElemBlues wrote: Next step is taking another case to the supreme court to get it to make a ruling that state governments must allow gay marriage. That's the next fight since it has already succeeded in California. Californians amended their constitution to say no gay marriage and the 9th circuit court said an amendment to a constitution was unconstitutional.
Any and all anti-gay marriage laws passed by referendum or legislature in any states are very vulnerable to a legal challenge now, since the Supreme Court showed majority support for gay marriage in the DOMA decision, and also support for lower courts striking down anti-gay marriage laws by declining to overturn the 9th Circuit in the Prop 8 case.
The Ninth Circuit's decision was vacated. It's the decision of the District Court for the Northern District of California that stands.
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On June 29 2013 13:20 DeepElemBlues wrote: Next step is taking another case to the supreme court to get it to make a ruling that state governments must allow gay marriage. That's the next fight since it has already succeeded in California. Californians amended their constitution to say no gay marriage and the 9th circuit court said an amendment to a constitution was unconstitutional.
Any and all anti-gay marriage laws passed by referendum or legislature in any states are very vulnerable to a legal challenge now, since the Supreme Court showed majority support for gay marriage in the DOMA decision, and also support for lower courts striking down anti-gay marriage laws by declining to overturn the 9th Circuit in the Prop 8 case. Why does California have this stand?
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Frankly, I don't know why polygamy isn't recognized either. Bestiality and incest are —per se— unrelated to marriage though, and aside from that, have obvious reasons why they should be discouraged and be illegal. There's no significant obvious reason why polygamy or homosexual marriage shouldn't be allowed. A representative in California's legislature already proposed listing three possible parents on every birth certificate. Open marriages and polygamy may be next, but it'll take some more popularity shift. Lobby public opinion, create the activists needed to get the news stories, push the cases forward with judges known for activism, get one to land on the supreme court. Discriminating against loving families with three parents creates a second tier relationship. The state/federal law saying marriage can only involve two partners has the effect of identifying a subset of constitutionally protected sexual relationships and making them unequal. The arguments will be close to the same. I'm the second mom in this marriage and I need the benefits. I was married (hetero-married, forgive me) before I found out I was gay and now I love them both. The law of only 2 in a marriage demeans our polyamorous relationship and my sexual choices are protected in the constitution.
Maybe in another generation we'll be talking about that.
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On June 29 2013 00:16 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 20:50 Stol wrote:On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. Affirmative action is actually a pretty clear case of discrimination. Its more or less only allowed as a counterweight to all the other statistically proven discrimination already occurring. On another note I have really never understood how progressive taxes has anything do to with discrimination. You are not paying more taxes because of your skin colour or sex, or anything else for that matter which can in any way be related to you as a person. Money as a concept is not a part of a person, more or less all currencies today has it's value directly derived from government regulation or law. Its pretty much the reason why destroying money is generally prohibited across the world, you only own the value which is ensured by the government, not the actual coins or bills in your hand. Another major reason why destroying money is illegal is that in some cases the coins or bills could actually cost more to make than their face value. This would only really happen with coins, but take the penny for example. Pennies, for example, cost 2.41 cents to make in 2012 ( source). The vast majority of this cost is the cost of the metals used to make them. This means that if it were legal to destroy money, you could melt down pennies and resell the copper and zinc for a profit.
Yes, thats true in some rare cases and while even bills cost money to make they're usually also worth more than their cost. The destruction of bills is on a separate law, much because of the large quantities of pennies it would require to influence the economy by destroying them. Before the metal prices increased to the point where melting pennies down became profitable, it was probably argued that there was no real need to prohibit this. Its most likely also the reason for why only melting coins and exporting them were prohibited, while the law about the destruction of bills is a lot more limiting.
Even the situations with pennies only furthers my point however, you do not own the coins or bills, only their worth, a symbolic "I owe you" from the government. And in this case the government is only willing to pay you a penny, not two and a half cents.
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On June 29 2013 08:21 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 20:50 Stol wrote:On June 28 2013 09:24 PCloadletter wrote:the US constitution is clear that the government cant treat people differently LOL! You must be joking. Affirmative action, progressive taxation, and a host of other left wing policies which I'm guessing most of you support, all have as their direct aim the treating of people differently. On another note I have really never understood how progressive taxes has anything do to with discrimination. You are not paying more taxes because of your skin colour or sex, or anything else for that matter which can in any way be related to you as a person. Money as a concept is not a part of a person, more or less all currencies today has it's value directly derived from government regulation or law. Its pretty much the reason why destroying money is generally prohibited across the world, you only own the value which is ensured by the government, not the actual coins or bills in your hand. Thats not true at all. You are saying you can tax certain individuals for any reason and have it not be discrimination. Congress can not say "Lets only tax the team liquid store and no one else" Progressive Taxing is arguably unconstitutional. Your last paragraph explains why getting off the gold standard and having a federal reserve is dumb.
No, I'm saying you can tax certain individuals for general monetary reasons, not any reason.
When it comes to your wild statement about only taxing the team liquid store, the congress could probably say that. As far as I'm aware there are no laws about discriminating against certain types of businesses. I believe alcohol and cigarettes got a higher tax to them in most countries, while other businesses like farming for example often receive governmental support.
That is however beside the point I was making. Taxing someone because they make more money has nothing to do with discrimination as money is not a part of a person.
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How much money somebody earns, what kind of sexual behavior they want to engage in, what kind of insurance they want to buy, what kind of insurance they don't want to buy. You're on a slippery slope when you talk about discrimination. The constitution makes no exceptions for general monetary reasons. Congress has the power to enact excise taxes, capitation taxes, income taxes, and whatever you want to call the new one the Supremes invented last year (nonpurchase of certain services). If you look hard enough, you'll find some that would [url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/10/is_a_progressive_tax_constitutional.html]take the position that any progressive income tax is unconstitutional. You might even call it [url=http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-progressive-income-tax-in-us-history#axzz2XaqigIDy]appalling to the founders[/url]. It's a pipe dream if you think it'll ever by found by a supreme court to be unconstitutional in the next hundred years.
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On June 29 2013 13:20 DeepElemBlues wrote: Next step is taking another case to the supreme court to get it to make a ruling that state governments must allow gay marriage. That's the next fight since it has already succeeded in California. Californians amended their constitution to say no gay marriage and the 9th circuit court said an amendment to a constitution was unconstitutional.
Any and all anti-gay marriage laws passed by referendum or legislature in any states are very vulnerable to a legal challenge now, since the Supreme Court showed majority support for gay marriage in the DOMA decision, and also support for lower courts striking down anti-gay marriage laws by declining to overturn the 9th Circuit in the Prop 8 case. The prop 8 case was done on standing, not on merit. It was a really odd SCOTUS split that it didn't get decided. It'll be another year or two before a similar case comes about with proper standing. You can't use that kind of technicality to declare a win for either side.
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No, I'm saying you can tax certain individuals for general monetary reasons, not any reason.
Not true at all.
When it comes to your wild statement about only taxing the team liquid store, the congress could probably say that. As far as I'm aware there are no laws about discriminating against certain types of businesses. I believe alcohol and cigarettes got a higher tax to them in most countries, while other businesses like farming for example often receive governmental support.
Cigarettes isn't an individual business. Marlboro is. Congress can not say, "We are going to tax Marlboro and only Marlboro while leaving other cigarette brands untaxed." Nor can they tax TL for having an online store and then not tax some other online store.
That is however beside the point I was making. Taxing someone because they make more money has nothing to do with discrimination as money is not a part of a person.
Complete and utter bullshit and quite frankly, fucking retarded.
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