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On June 17 2013 05:35 micronesia wrote:
Actually, I think it's wrong to be able to own something capable of being emotionally damaged by statutory rape. The only close exception to this is being a parent/guardian of a child, of course. I don't believe non-sentient creatures are at risk of emotional damage from sex like humans are, and similarly believe animal ownership (but not physical abuse) is okay.
Well you are most likely wrong, I work in a lab and we do experiments with live rats.
We work with something called fear conditioning, basically we make the rats scared to increase their anxiety level, when we do that we are effectively traumatizing the rats with electrical pain stimulation in order to increase their anxiety response the next time they are into that context.
That means even an animal as simple as a rat can suffer psychological damage and be traumatized, now its extremelly difficult to know if an animal will be traumatized by having a sexual relationship with a zoophile, but its not impossible, because different animals can also experience things differently.
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Conditioning is not the same thing as psychological trauma.
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On June 17 2013 05:45 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:35 micronesia wrote:
Actually, I think it's wrong to be able to own something capable of being emotionally damaged by statutory rape. The only close exception to this is being a parent/guardian of a child, of course. I don't believe non-sentient creatures are at risk of emotional damage from sex like humans are, and similarly believe animal ownership (but not physical abuse) is okay. Well you are most likely wrong, I work in a lab and we do experiments with live rats. We work with something called fear conditioning, basically we make the rats scared to increase their anxiety level, when we do that we are effectively traumatizing the rats with electrical pain stimulation in order to increase their anxiety response the next time they are into that context. That means even an animal as simple as a rat can suffer psychological damage and be traumatized, now its extremelly difficult to know if an animal will be traumatized by having a sexual relationship with a zoophile, but its not impossible, because different animals can also experience things differently.
Oh I don't deny the results of your experiments at all. I stand by what I said: "I don't believe non-sentient creatures are at risk of emotional damage from sex like humans are." That's not to say I think it's impossible for sexual relations to have any affect on the permanent brain-state of an animal whatsoever, but it's minor and not justification for sweeping laws.
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Also, everyone knows that physical pain will have lasting negative effects on animals. What we're talking about is the impact that sexual interaction with humans has on animals.
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On June 17 2013 05:47 KwarK wrote:
Conditioning is not the same thing as psychological trauma.
According to whom ?
From what I have read about dogs, they can certainly get traumatized by this conditioning.
On June 17 2013 05:51 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:45 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 05:35 micronesia wrote:
Actually, I think it's wrong to be able to own something capable of being emotionally damaged by statutory rape. The only close exception to this is being a parent/guardian of a child, of course. I don't believe non-sentient creatures are at risk of emotional damage from sex like humans are, and similarly believe animal ownership (but not physical abuse) is okay. Well you are most likely wrong, I work in a lab and we do experiments with live rats. We work with something called fear conditioning, basically we make the rats scared to increase their anxiety level, when we do that we are effectively traumatizing the rats with electrical pain stimulation in order to increase their anxiety response the next time they are into that context. That means even an animal as simple as a rat can suffer psychological damage and be traumatized, now its extremelly difficult to know if an animal will be traumatized by having a sexual relationship with a zoophile, but its not impossible, because different animals can also experience things differently. Oh I don't deny the results of your experiments at all. I stand by what I said: "I don't believe non-sentient creatures are at risk of emotional damage from sex like humans are." That's not to say I think it's impossible for sexual relations to have any affect on the permanent brain-state of an animal whatsoever, but it's minor and not justification for sweeping laws.
I agree, sweeping laws are not necessary, if anything, just amend something in the animal abuse laws that already exist, but this huge circus over the subject is ridiculous.
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Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference?
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On June 17 2013 05:47 KwarK wrote:
Conditioning is not the same thing as psychological trauma.
Trauma is a type of conditioning though
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On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference?
The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry.
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On June 17 2013 06:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:47 KwarK wrote:
Conditioning is not the same thing as psychological trauma. Trauma is a type of conditioning though
Conditioning is not necessarily negative. I cannot come up with an example of positive trauma.
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On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry.
I take back my statement about you seeming to know a lot, you write fancy text but with very little substance and you seem to know nothing more than something you might have read on the internet.
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This thread really shows everything thats wrong with modern libertarian culture. Trully one of the most dispicable threads on TL starting from the topic to the discussion and the arguing, the ad hominem attacks and what not...
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On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry.
humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms.
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On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry.
As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma."
It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions.
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On June 17 2013 06:07 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms.
I wasn't aware that animals could feel shame. I've had dogs express what could be described as remorse from the anticipation of punishment after doing something naughty but actual shame requires a sense of self against which actions can be judged and found unworthy. It requires sentience.
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We don't yet fully understand the underpinnings of our own emotional and psychological aspects, let alone animals', so I think it's too early to have strong beliefs against some animals being suspect to psychological damage in the same way humans experience it. Some evidence suggests it's possible
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On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions.
Sexually abused dogs?
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On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs?
As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse.
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I thought I was a wildmouse, but this is wild, really wild... why would you want to legislate about something this weird?
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On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse.
Do we have any data on this? How many cases are there where a dog is sexually engaged with a human without being abused in other ways as well? It's certainly possible that they might see sexual activity as abuse, but how do we actually know whether or not they do?
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EPT
