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United States42191 Posts
On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse.
I was using your definition of any sexual activity is abuse in that question. I was just trying to find out if the dogs exhibiting symptoms of PTSD that he mentioned were dogs which had been sexually abused but not otherwise harmed or neglected because I would find that quite surprising. If it's just dogs that have been hurt and so forth then I'm not sure it contradicts anything I wrote about dogs being unable to grasp the more complicated aspects of sexual abuse.
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On June 17 2013 06:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:07 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms. I wasn't aware that animals could feel shame. I've had dogs express what could be described as remorse from the anticipation of punishment after doing something naughty but actual shame requires a sense of self against which actions can be judged and found unworthy. It requires sentience.
and animals have that.
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On June 17 2013 06:19 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse. Do we have any data on this? How many cases are there where a dog is sexually engaged with a human without being abused in other ways as well? It's certainly possible that they might see sexual activity as abuse, but how do we actually know whether or not they do?
I dont know if there is any data on this specifically, usually you just get the dogs who went thro some kind of abuse in shelters and etc.. and compare the symptoms to people who were raped or suffered trauma or abuse, and there are quite similar developments.
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United States42191 Posts
On June 17 2013 06:22 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:09 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:07 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms. I wasn't aware that animals could feel shame. I've had dogs express what could be described as remorse from the anticipation of punishment after doing something naughty but actual shame requires a sense of self against which actions can be judged and found unworthy. It requires sentience. and animals have that.
Do you have any evidence for that? Shame is actually quite complicated, it requires a conceptual understanding of an ideal self so that reality can be weighed against it. Given dogs can't pass a mirror test (they don't get that the thing in the mirror is them) I'd be amazed. But if you have citations then go for it.
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United States42191 Posts
On June 17 2013 06:24 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:19 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse. Do we have any data on this? How many cases are there where a dog is sexually engaged with a human without being abused in other ways as well? It's certainly possible that they might see sexual activity as abuse, but how do we actually know whether or not they do? I dont know if there is any data on this specifically, usually you just get the dogs who went thro some kind of abuse in shelters and etc.. and compare the symptoms to people who were raped or suffered trauma or abuse, and there are quite similar developments.
This is evidence that people suffer from sexual abuse. We're talking about animals.
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On June 17 2013 06:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse. I was using your definition of any sexual activity is abuse in that question. I was just trying to find out if the dogs exhibiting symptoms of PTSD that he mentioned were dogs which had been sexually abused but not otherwise harmed or neglected because I would find that quite surprising. If it's just dogs that have been hurt and so forth then I'm not sure it contradicts anything I wrote about dogs being unable to grasp the more complicated aspects of sexual abuse.
Well im sure he wont be able to write essays about sexual abuse, but that doesnt mean he cant feel powerless, depressive, agressive, confused, and unmotivated to life due to something that happened to him that he had no control over, and worse yet, he wont even grasp enough of whats going on to do more than cry about it.
And I am absolutely sure that there will be people out there with animals that dont exhibit those behaviors who have sexual intercourse with zoophiles, because they havent been traumatized, but one thing you have to take into consideration is that trauma is something that can happen in a moment or over the course of years.
Just because all its well and fine, doesnt mean that inside the person and animal psyche there isnt something unhealthy going on being hidden by efusive pleasure behaviors.
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On June 17 2013 06:24 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:19 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse. Do we have any data on this? How many cases are there where a dog is sexually engaged with a human without being abused in other ways as well? It's certainly possible that they might see sexual activity as abuse, but how do we actually know whether or not they do? I dont know if there is any data on this specifically, usually you just get the dogs who went thro some kind of abuse in shelters and etc.. and compare the symptoms to people who were raped or suffered trauma or abuse, and there are quite similar developments.
What I am curious about is this: You have two dogs. Dog A and dog B. Both dogs are kept as pets in loving families who properly care for them and treat them with love and admiration. The only difference between the dogs is that the owner of dog B engages in non-violent sexual behavior with dog B. What is the impact that the sexual behavior alone has on dog B?
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not a fan of bestiality but let me say this
+ Show Spoiler +on the privat torrent side i browse there is a section for this and if u just look for high seed / download torrents...they are _always_ on top.
thats kinda scary :3
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On June 17 2013 06:34 {ToT}ColmA wrote:not a fan of bestiality but let me say this + Show Spoiler +on the privat torrent side i browse there is a section for this and if u just look for high seed / download torrents...they are _always_ on top. thats kinda scary :3
I heard about a village in Colombia or some other place in South America where having sex with a female donkey is a right of passage for teenage boys. It's no big deal down there, they see it as 'practice' for when they get married. The donkeys don't care either since a dude's dong is nothing compared to a donkey's lol.
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United States42191 Posts
On June 17 2013 06:41 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:34 {ToT}ColmA wrote:not a fan of bestiality but let me say this + Show Spoiler +on the privat torrent side i browse there is a section for this and if u just look for high seed / download torrents...they are _always_ on top. thats kinda scary :3 I heard about a village in Colombia or some other place in South America where having sex with a female donkey is a right of passage for teenage boys. It's no big deal down there, they see it as 'practice' for when they get married. The donkeys don't care either since a dude's dong is nothing compared to a donkey's lol.
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On June 17 2013 06:31 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:24 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:19 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse. Do we have any data on this? How many cases are there where a dog is sexually engaged with a human without being abused in other ways as well? It's certainly possible that they might see sexual activity as abuse, but how do we actually know whether or not they do? I dont know if there is any data on this specifically, usually you just get the dogs who went thro some kind of abuse in shelters and etc.. and compare the symptoms to people who were raped or suffered trauma or abuse, and there are quite similar developments. What I am curious about is this: You have two dogs. Dog A and dog B. Both dogs are kept as pets in loving families who properly care for them and treat them with love and admiration. The only difference between the dogs is that the owner of dog B engages in non-violent sexual behavior with dog B. What is the impact that the sexual behavior alone has on dog B?
Give me 100 of each dog. 10000 dollars and a couple months and ill run the study for you
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On June 17 2013 06:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:22 Paljas wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:07 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms. I wasn't aware that animals could feel shame. I've had dogs express what could be described as remorse from the anticipation of punishment after doing something naughty but actual shame requires a sense of self against which actions can be judged and found unworthy. It requires sentience. and animals have that. Do you have any evidence for that? Shame is actually quite complicated, it requires a conceptual understanding of an ideal self so that reality can be weighed against it. Given dogs can't pass a mirror test (they don't get that the thing in the mirror is them) I'd be amazed. But if you have citations then go for it.
well, my post wasnt limited to dogs, for which there is doesnt seem to be clear evidence
whether or not they can feel shame (some interesting articles:
pro: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201303/can-dogs-experience-guilt-pride-and-shame-why-not
contra: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience).
however, there is plenty fo evidence that a lot of mammals can in fact do feel shame.
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On June 17 2013 06:44 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:31 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 17 2013 06:24 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:19 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse. Do we have any data on this? How many cases are there where a dog is sexually engaged with a human without being abused in other ways as well? It's certainly possible that they might see sexual activity as abuse, but how do we actually know whether or not they do? I dont know if there is any data on this specifically, usually you just get the dogs who went thro some kind of abuse in shelters and etc.. and compare the symptoms to people who were raped or suffered trauma or abuse, and there are quite similar developments. What I am curious about is this: You have two dogs. Dog A and dog B. Both dogs are kept as pets in loving families who properly care for them and treat them with love and admiration. The only difference between the dogs is that the owner of dog B engages in non-violent sexual behavior with dog B. What is the impact that the sexual behavior alone has on dog B? Give me 100 of each dog. 10000 dollars and a couple months and ill run the study for you
But it'll be illegal, bro!
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On June 17 2013 06:51 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:44 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:31 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 17 2013 06:24 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:19 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 17 2013 06:17 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:11 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. As a student in a doctoral program for clinical psychology and a former emergency room vet tech I disagree with your assertions. Abused dogs absolutely have observable behavioral changes in line with the human conception of PTSD or "psychological trauma." It's a waste of time to argue so I won't be replying but yeah, animals can feel emotions. Sexually abused dogs? As I said before, abuse is a question of perception, a dog that is being engaged in sexual activity can perceive that as abuse. Do we have any data on this? How many cases are there where a dog is sexually engaged with a human without being abused in other ways as well? It's certainly possible that they might see sexual activity as abuse, but how do we actually know whether or not they do? I dont know if there is any data on this specifically, usually you just get the dogs who went thro some kind of abuse in shelters and etc.. and compare the symptoms to people who were raped or suffered trauma or abuse, and there are quite similar developments. What I am curious about is this: You have two dogs. Dog A and dog B. Both dogs are kept as pets in loving families who properly care for them and treat them with love and admiration. The only difference between the dogs is that the owner of dog B engages in non-violent sexual behavior with dog B. What is the impact that the sexual behavior alone has on dog B? Give me 100 of each dog. 10000 dollars and a couple months and ill run the study for you But it'll be illegal, bro!
Ill do it on international waters xD
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United States42191 Posts
On June 17 2013 06:51 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:25 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:22 Paljas wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:07 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms. I wasn't aware that animals could feel shame. I've had dogs express what could be described as remorse from the anticipation of punishment after doing something naughty but actual shame requires a sense of self against which actions can be judged and found unworthy. It requires sentience. and animals have that. Do you have any evidence for that? Shame is actually quite complicated, it requires a conceptual understanding of an ideal self so that reality can be weighed against it. Given dogs can't pass a mirror test (they don't get that the thing in the mirror is them) I'd be amazed. But if you have citations then go for it. well, my post wasnt limited to dogs, for which there is doesnt seem to be clear evidence whether or not they can feel shame (some interesting articles: pro: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201303/can-dogs-experience-guilt-pride-and-shame-why-notcontra: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience). however, there is plenty fo evidence that a lot of mammals can in fact do feel shame.
Care to link any evidence of that?
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On June 17 2013 06:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:51 Paljas wrote:On June 17 2013 06:25 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:22 Paljas wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:07 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms. I wasn't aware that animals could feel shame. I've had dogs express what could be described as remorse from the anticipation of punishment after doing something naughty but actual shame requires a sense of self against which actions can be judged and found unworthy. It requires sentience. and animals have that. Do you have any evidence for that? Shame is actually quite complicated, it requires a conceptual understanding of an ideal self so that reality can be weighed against it. Given dogs can't pass a mirror test (they don't get that the thing in the mirror is them) I'd be amazed. But if you have citations then go for it. well, my post wasnt limited to dogs, for which there is doesnt seem to be clear evidence whether or not they can feel shame (some interesting articles: pro: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201303/can-dogs-experience-guilt-pride-and-shame-why-notcontra: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience). however, there is plenty fo evidence that a lot of mammals can in fact do feel shame. Care to link any evidence of that?
Kwark in this case, I'm usually one to see how your arguments pan out, you are just wrong. As Zerg_Russian stated, and as many people have stated before, animals of higher intelligences (usually mammalian animals) can suffer from shame and abuse. Your argument is becoming ludicrous dude, you are bordering on saying that animals do not experience any negative effects from sexual abuse, which is untrue. You are asking for human responses from an animal, which is not going to happen. The Pit of Despair experiment by Harlow shows that animals do feel depression and sadness from abuse, though that one was solitary confinement for long periods of time, animals who are abused sexually or physically also demonstrate fear. That, in some animals such as Dolphins and Monkeys, extend itself all the way to suicide, as seen by Harlow. What you are arguing, if I'm following the thread of responses correctly, is ignorant dude, it shows that you have little background in the psychology of animals or in the psychology of abuse victims.
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United States42191 Posts
I am asking for evidence that the concept of rape has any relevance to animals and so far I've not gotten any. Zerg_Russian stated that animals can get PTSD from abuse but I'm pretty sure he meant physical abuse rather than sexual. I asked him to clarify but he did not. I have repeatedly requested that people who claim to be better informed provide evidence and so far have just gotten an article claiming that dogs don't experience shame and another challenging the reasoning of the first one. So again, docvoc, do you have any evidence for that? The Pit of Despair experiment did a total of zero research on sexual abuse on monkeys or dolphins.
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On June 17 2013 06:55 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 06:51 Paljas wrote:On June 17 2013 06:25 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:22 Paljas wrote:On June 17 2013 06:09 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 06:07 D10 wrote:On June 17 2013 06:05 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 05:52 Mefano wrote:
Wow Kwark, you must know a lot about these things! What is the difference? The psychological trauma from sexual abuse is from a number of psychological and societal factors which don't apply to animals because the context is completely different. For example an abused dog won't feel isolated and unable to communicate with its peers, nor humiliated by the loss of control, nor shamed by the victim blame placed upon them nor alienated by their new identity as a victim. A dog can be conditioned by pain because dogs get pain, they understand it, it's a physical thing. A dog can be conditioned by food because again they understand food. A dog cannot be conditioned by societies attitude towards sexual abuse because a dog does not understand this, you can call it a whore and tell it it deserved the abuse all day but it still won't cry. humiliated by the loss of control is completely possible, animals minds work with pleasure and power and fear mechanisms. I wasn't aware that animals could feel shame. I've had dogs express what could be described as remorse from the anticipation of punishment after doing something naughty but actual shame requires a sense of self against which actions can be judged and found unworthy. It requires sentience. and animals have that. Do you have any evidence for that? Shame is actually quite complicated, it requires a conceptual understanding of an ideal self so that reality can be weighed against it. Given dogs can't pass a mirror test (they don't get that the thing in the mirror is them) I'd be amazed. But if you have citations then go for it. well, my post wasnt limited to dogs, for which there is doesnt seem to be clear evidence whether or not they can feel shame (some interesting articles: pro: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201303/can-dogs-experience-guilt-pride-and-shame-why-notcontra: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience). however, there is plenty fo evidence that a lot of mammals can in fact do feel shame. Care to link any evidence of that?
unfortunately, i didnt find any primaryliterature which is accessible through the internet.
however, this is a nice article with a great pool of sources:
http://www.shamanandscientist.com/images/The Universe/TERRA/Terra2/Bekoff Animal Emotions.pdf
reading your post, i responded to your general statement that animals cant feel emotions like shame,
not to the specific sexual context.
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As disgusting as I find stuff like that, Sweden is making the classic mistake of micromanaging its people. Do they honestly think that they will start catching these people left and right? I would imagine that the people who engage in bestiality wouldn't really be public about it.
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On June 17 2013 07:09 KwarK wrote:
I am asking for evidence that the concept of rape has any relevance to animals and so far I've not gotten any. Zerg_Russian stated that animals can get PTSD from abuse but I'm pretty sure he meant physical abuse rather than sexual. I asked him to clarify but he did not. I have repeatedly requested that people who claim to be better informed provide evidence and so far have just gotten an article claiming that dogs don't experience shame and another challenging the reasoning of the first one. So again, docvoc, do you have any evidence for that? The Pit of Despair experiment did a total of zero research on sexual abuse on monkeys or dolphins.
I didn't phrase that part correctly. I meant that it was on mammals (monkeys) which showed that the monkeys can feel abuse. The dolphin part has had research done and when dolphins feel loss or abuse, they commit suicide. Also, sexual abuse is still abuse, which was the point of the pit of despair. While it is a different category, I think we can both agree that it is abuse, and therefore should not be carried out on animals. But yes, I followed the argument wrong and I'm sorry about that.
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EPT
