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On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does.
I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else.
I was thinking about it and that's something I wasn't sure about. Even if the animal does not physically show that it does not want to have sex by fighting back or by displaying some kind of physical and observable behavior, is this necessary and sufficient proof that the animal consents to sex?
What if the animal would prefer not to have sex, but would not dare or does not understand how to display behavior indicating this to be the case? I don't think it's radical to imagine that could be the case in some instances.
I think it makes more sense to conclude that because there is no communication possible, that we have to err on the side of not allowing any sex with animals, on the off chance that it may be violating the animal in many or even just some cases. I think it makes less sense to err on the side of allowing sex with animals just because it may be okay with some or even many animals.
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United States42653 Posts
On June 17 2013 04:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does.
I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else. I was thinking about it and that's something I wasn't sure about. Even if the animal does not physically show that it does not want to have sex by fighting back or by displaying some kind of physical and observable behavior, is this necessary and sufficient proof that the animal consents to sex? What if the animal would prefer not to have sex, but would not dare or does not understand how to display behavior indicating this to be the case? I don't think it's radical to imagine that could be the case in some instances. I think it makes more sense to conclude that because there is no communication possible, that we have to err on the side of not allowing any sex with animals, on the off chance that it may be violating the animal in many or even just some cases. I think it makes less sense to err on the side of allowing sex with animals just because it may be okay with some or even many animals.
Sorry, I think I've missed an important step in your argument here. If I'm following correctly it goes like this
1) Animals are incapable of communicating their wishes to us
2) We shouldn't do things to them if we don't know whether or not they consent
3) Sex is a thing you can do to them but because of 2 you should not do it
4) 2 only applies to sex with them, not eating them or domesticating them or using them as farm tools or keeping them as pets or doing medical research on them, rather just in the one situation described in 3 which makes up 0.00000000001% of nonconsensual animal-human interactions and an even smaller proportion of animal suffering.
I don't understand how 4 logically follows from 2.
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On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does. I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else.
yeah, i am pretty sure that animals cant consent.
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Would it be legal to kill the animal first and then have intercourse with it? No animal cruelty involved anymore. Questions over questions...
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On June 17 2013 04:23 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 04:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does.
I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else. I was thinking about it and that's something I wasn't sure about. Even if the animal does not physically show that it does not want to have sex by fighting back or by displaying some kind of physical and observable behavior, is this necessary and sufficient proof that the animal consents to sex? What if the animal would prefer not to have sex, but would not dare or does not understand how to display behavior indicating this to be the case? I don't think it's radical to imagine that could be the case in some instances. I think it makes more sense to conclude that because there is no communication possible, that we have to err on the side of not allowing any sex with animals, on the off chance that it may be violating the animal in many or even just some cases. I think it makes less sense to err on the side of allowing sex with animals just because it may be okay with some or even many animals. Sorry, I think I've missed an important step in your argument here. If I'm following correctly it goes like this 1) Animals are incapable of communicating their wishes to us 2) We shouldn't do things to them if we don't know whether or not they consent 3) 2 only applies to sex with them, not eating them or domesticating them or using them as farm tools or keeping them as pets or doing medical research on them I don't understand how 3 logically follows from 2.
Logically, yeah, we'd not capture them/eat them by that argument made out in a vacuum of space. However realistically it becomes a moral issue. It turns out that domesticating them and eating them in some cases greatly benefits humans (re: food/medicine). With raping animals, however, there is no real gain to humans on the whole. So it doesn't seem as worthwhile to violate their autonomy. It's tricky, and it's probably why it remains a 'hot topic' in bioethics
Here I'll break down my moral view on the subject for you KwarK:
1) If it benefits the human species greatly on the whole, such as by providing food/medical knowledge, then we can carefully proceed with breaking that respect for animal moral autonomy
2) If it seems selfish and needless, such as it does with animal rape, then I'd rather respect the animal moral autonomy over that.
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Guess bronies will have to find another country to live in
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United States42653 Posts
On June 17 2013 04:29 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 04:23 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 04:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does.
I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else. I was thinking about it and that's something I wasn't sure about. Even if the animal does not physically show that it does not want to have sex by fighting back or by displaying some kind of physical and observable behavior, is this necessary and sufficient proof that the animal consents to sex? What if the animal would prefer not to have sex, but would not dare or does not understand how to display behavior indicating this to be the case? I don't think it's radical to imagine that could be the case in some instances. I think it makes more sense to conclude that because there is no communication possible, that we have to err on the side of not allowing any sex with animals, on the off chance that it may be violating the animal in many or even just some cases. I think it makes less sense to err on the side of allowing sex with animals just because it may be okay with some or even many animals. Sorry, I think I've missed an important step in your argument here. If I'm following correctly it goes like this 1) Animals are incapable of communicating their wishes to us 2) We shouldn't do things to them if we don't know whether or not they consent 3) 2 only applies to sex with them, not eating them or domesticating them or using them as farm tools or keeping them as pets or doing medical research on them I don't understand how 3 logically follows from 2. Logically, yeah, we'd not capture them/eat them by that logic. However realistically it becomes a moral issue. It turns out that domesticating them and eating them in some cases greatly benefits humans. With raping animals, however, there is no real gain to humans on the whole. So it doesn't seem as worthwhile to violate their autonomy. It's tricky, and it's probably why it remains a 'hot topic' in bioethics
To me your post reads "I like meat so consent doesn't matter if I want a steak but I don't like fucking them so consent is really important for that". It's a colossal hypocrisy, you don't get to argue one is fine and the other isn't, especially when your argument is rooted in animal welfare and the thing you claim is fine is killing them and the thing you claim is not fine is non harmful sex.
Your desire for a steak is not a necessary thing for the good of the species.
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United States24676 Posts
FallDownMarigold why do you value the benefit you get from being able to eat animals over the benefit someone else receives from being able to have sex with them? I think you can even make the argument that eating red meat (for example) is more unhealthy than having sex with the animal the meat came from!
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Ok a woman loves her dog she lives alone with it, she never had him neutered. On night a bitch is in heat outside causeing the dog to get aroused. It is hot and the woman decides to sleep naked and her dog mounts her while she is sleeping. At first the woman is shocked and appaled but she realizes she doesnt mind she loves her dog, from that point on she never stops him when he wants to mount her.
Same women same story except this time when he mounts her she freaks out and kicks him off her as hard as she can yelling at the top of her lungs.
Which of these is worse, and how in any way is the first story illegal?
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On June 17 2013 04:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 04:29 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:23 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 04:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does.
I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else. I was thinking about it and that's something I wasn't sure about. Even if the animal does not physically show that it does not want to have sex by fighting back or by displaying some kind of physical and observable behavior, is this necessary and sufficient proof that the animal consents to sex? What if the animal would prefer not to have sex, but would not dare or does not understand how to display behavior indicating this to be the case? I don't think it's radical to imagine that could be the case in some instances. I think it makes more sense to conclude that because there is no communication possible, that we have to err on the side of not allowing any sex with animals, on the off chance that it may be violating the animal in many or even just some cases. I think it makes less sense to err on the side of allowing sex with animals just because it may be okay with some or even many animals. Sorry, I think I've missed an important step in your argument here. If I'm following correctly it goes like this 1) Animals are incapable of communicating their wishes to us 2) We shouldn't do things to them if we don't know whether or not they consent 3) 2 only applies to sex with them, not eating them or domesticating them or using them as farm tools or keeping them as pets or doing medical research on them I don't understand how 3 logically follows from 2. Logically, yeah, we'd not capture them/eat them by that logic. However realistically it becomes a moral issue. It turns out that domesticating them and eating them in some cases greatly benefits humans. With raping animals, however, there is no real gain to humans on the whole. So it doesn't seem as worthwhile to violate their autonomy. It's tricky, and it's probably why it remains a 'hot topic' in bioethics To me your post reads "I like meat so consent doesn't matter if I want a steak but I don't like fucking them so consent is really important for that". It's a colossal hypocrisy, you don't get to argue one is fine and the other isn't, especially when your argument is rooted in animal welfare and the thing you claim is fine is killing them and the thing you claim is not fine is non harmful sex. Your desire for a steak is not a necessary thing for the good of the species.
KwarK, may I ask why this topic is so important to you?
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United States42653 Posts
On June 17 2013 04:35 Onegu wrote:
Ok a woman loves her dog she lives alone with it, she never had him neutered. On night a bitch is in heat outside causeing the dog to get aroused. It is hot and the woman decides to sleep naked and her dog mounts her while she is sleeping. At first the woman is shocked and appaled but she realizes she doesnt mind she loves her dog, from that point on she never stops him when he wants to mount her.
Still a better love story than Twilight.
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On June 17 2013 04:34 micronesia wrote:
FallDownMarigold why do you value the benefit you get from being able to eat animals over the benefit someone else receives from being able to have sex with them? I think you can even make the argument that eating red meat (for example) is more unhealthy than having sex with the animal the meat came from!
Maybe, so I'll concede eating red meat isn't necessary. You win. I will work on not doing that when I am focusing on being a good person.
Now moving on to my choice of example: Medicine. Many billions of lives are made better by medical advances that are contingent on animal studies throughout the research and development process. I think the value we get from shunning animal moral autonomy in this case is worthwhile in light of what we gain toward human health and well being. I do not value eating red meat or raping animals as highly so next to animal moral autonomy in these cases perhaps I would support the latter.
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On June 17 2013 04:35 butchji wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 04:34 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 04:29 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:23 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 04:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does.
I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else. I was thinking about it and that's something I wasn't sure about. Even if the animal does not physically show that it does not want to have sex by fighting back or by displaying some kind of physical and observable behavior, is this necessary and sufficient proof that the animal consents to sex? What if the animal would prefer not to have sex, but would not dare or does not understand how to display behavior indicating this to be the case? I don't think it's radical to imagine that could be the case in some instances. I think it makes more sense to conclude that because there is no communication possible, that we have to err on the side of not allowing any sex with animals, on the off chance that it may be violating the animal in many or even just some cases. I think it makes less sense to err on the side of allowing sex with animals just because it may be okay with some or even many animals. Sorry, I think I've missed an important step in your argument here. If I'm following correctly it goes like this 1) Animals are incapable of communicating their wishes to us 2) We shouldn't do things to them if we don't know whether or not they consent 3) 2 only applies to sex with them, not eating them or domesticating them or using them as farm tools or keeping them as pets or doing medical research on them I don't understand how 3 logically follows from 2. Logically, yeah, we'd not capture them/eat them by that logic. However realistically it becomes a moral issue. It turns out that domesticating them and eating them in some cases greatly benefits humans. With raping animals, however, there is no real gain to humans on the whole. So it doesn't seem as worthwhile to violate their autonomy. It's tricky, and it's probably why it remains a 'hot topic' in bioethics To me your post reads "I like meat so consent doesn't matter if I want a steak but I don't like fucking them so consent is really important for that". It's a colossal hypocrisy, you don't get to argue one is fine and the other isn't, especially when your argument is rooted in animal welfare and the thing you claim is fine is killing them and the thing you claim is not fine is non harmful sex. Your desire for a steak is not a necessary thing for the good of the species. KwarK, may I ask why this topic is so important to you?
somebody is wrong on the internet, thats very important.
on topic:
Kwark, if we asume that eating animals is wrong, would you agree with the points of falldownmarigold?
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What are your opinions on keeping pets, Marigold? A pet serves no purpose other than satisfying the selfish desires of a human. An animal is unable to consent to being purchased and kept in a human's house and is basically a piece of property.
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Look I dont want to rain on anybodies parade, but theres tons of way to read what the zoophiles are doing as something wrong.
From a mental health standpoint, if your fetishes get to the point where you simply are unable to live on without acting on them, and they are very socially represible things that would be in your best interest to put a hold on, that means you have some psychological problems going on over there.
Right or wrong, the fact that the majority of people dictate whats right or wrong means that from the normallity pov, having sex with an animal is wrong, having sex with an animal on a usual basis is extremelly wrong, they wont find solace in any legislature I know off.
The question really isnt about whats best for the animal, but whats best for the person, it simply isnt healthy for a persons psyche to regularly have sex with animals, and im too tired to explain why, but i can come back and do it if its demanded.
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United States42653 Posts
On June 17 2013 04:41 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 04:35 butchji wrote:On June 17 2013 04:34 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 04:29 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:23 KwarK wrote:On June 17 2013 04:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:On June 17 2013 04:11 Millitron wrote:On June 17 2013 03:59 D10 wrote:
Problem is animals cant consent, they are almost biological machines, with the right conditioning anyone can get themselves a beast that will act as if its the shit.
Personally I wouldnt make it something criminal unless theres some serious abuse involved, but I wouldnt make it legal either, maybe give zoophile some psychological evaluation, if the guy is pathologically a zoophile, well id rather have him fuck a sheep than killhimself.
Also, a hefty fine and be done with it, that way at least the government is earning some money to turn a blind eye to something no one wants to see anyways. Are you sure animals can't consent? Does the animal try to prevent it, i.e. fight back/avoid the person? If yes, it doesn't consent. If no, it does.
I personally think zoophilia is pretty gross, but I'm not going to try to impose that view on everyone else. I was thinking about it and that's something I wasn't sure about. Even if the animal does not physically show that it does not want to have sex by fighting back or by displaying some kind of physical and observable behavior, is this necessary and sufficient proof that the animal consents to sex? What if the animal would prefer not to have sex, but would not dare or does not understand how to display behavior indicating this to be the case? I don't think it's radical to imagine that could be the case in some instances. I think it makes more sense to conclude that because there is no communication possible, that we have to err on the side of not allowing any sex with animals, on the off chance that it may be violating the animal in many or even just some cases. I think it makes less sense to err on the side of allowing sex with animals just because it may be okay with some or even many animals. Sorry, I think I've missed an important step in your argument here. If I'm following correctly it goes like this 1) Animals are incapable of communicating their wishes to us 2) We shouldn't do things to them if we don't know whether or not they consent 3) 2 only applies to sex with them, not eating them or domesticating them or using them as farm tools or keeping them as pets or doing medical research on them I don't understand how 3 logically follows from 2. Logically, yeah, we'd not capture them/eat them by that logic. However realistically it becomes a moral issue. It turns out that domesticating them and eating them in some cases greatly benefits humans. With raping animals, however, there is no real gain to humans on the whole. So it doesn't seem as worthwhile to violate their autonomy. It's tricky, and it's probably why it remains a 'hot topic' in bioethics To me your post reads "I like meat so consent doesn't matter if I want a steak but I don't like fucking them so consent is really important for that". It's a colossal hypocrisy, you don't get to argue one is fine and the other isn't, especially when your argument is rooted in animal welfare and the thing you claim is fine is killing them and the thing you claim is not fine is non harmful sex. Your desire for a steak is not a necessary thing for the good of the species. KwarK, may I ask why this topic is so important to you? somebody is wrong on the internet, thats very important. on topic: Kwark, if we asume that eating animals is wrong, would you agree with the points of falldownmarigold?
No, I would still disagree with his premises but his argument would at least be internally consistent. I think animal consent has no value, I'm fine with eating them. If someone were to genuinely believe that animal consent had value, that beastiality was literally equivalent to rape and that slaughtering an animal to eat was literally equivalent to murder then their argument would be internally consistent but based upon premises which I did not agree with. However instead we've been getting that animal non-consent only matters when they're not being harmed and when the thing happening is something that I personally don't want to do which is just bullshit.
I'd be happy to debate the value of animal consent but the only person in this topic to argue that animals are literally people is Evangelist who QQed out earlier. Everyone else has gone with "animals are people only when it suits me".
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I was just thinking about pets, haha. I'm really not sure. Emotionally I want to say pets are fine. I've enjoyed pets in the past, and I think many many many people have fantastic relationships with their own pets. Some people keep pets who are miserable, of course. But if we don't allow pets just because some people are cruel to pets then we will make all the people who are good to pets very sad and unhappy. Is that better just because it results in more 'moral respect' for animals on the whole? Probably not, but it doesn't seem super straight forward.
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On June 17 2013 04:45 SnipedSoul wrote:
What are your opinions on keeping pets, Marigold? A pet serves no purpose other than satisfying the selfish desires of a human. An animal is unable to consent to being purchased and kept in a human's house and is basically a piece of property.
Adopting a pet or buying one from a store serves more than just a selfish purpose, I assure you. Especially given the conditions many of them live in. Taking care of a pet in general requires a lot of time, money, and empathy.
For the third time, consent isn't what actually matters here.
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United States42653 Posts
On June 17 2013 04:47 D10 wrote:
From a mental health standpoint, if your fetishes get to the point where you simply are unable to live on without acting on them, and they are very socially represible things that would be in your best interest to put a hold on, that means you have some psychological problems going on over there.
Right or wrong, the fact that the majority of people dictate whats right or wrong means that from the normallity pov,
Heard this one fifty years ago when homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder.
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EPT
