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On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:55 KwarK wrote:On May 03 2013 05:49 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
A woman doing what she chooses to do is not objectification. A woman being used as an object is objectification--because she's being used as an object.
You wanting to call women who act sexual immoral is sexist. For much the same reason that if a woman is told she has to strip in front of a camera to increase ratings is sexist.
Women's rights is not about putting clothes on women who are naked. Women's rights is about giving women the power to act the way they want to act. You can treat yourself as an object. That's all I have to say about this nonsense. People who sell their sexuality aren't "acting sexual"; they're treating themselves as objects. And my statement applies to male prostitutes as well as women. It has nothing to do with sexism at all. You're grasping at straws. Face it: you've got nothing to stand on here. I think you're misunderstanding his point. It's that other people don't get to decide how it's okay for an individual to express themselves (assuming they're not harming anyone). It's not just about you adding things to your list of acceptable ways to be a woman, it's about you not defining the acceptable ways to be a woman. Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects. I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol
Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves.
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On May 03 2013 06:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:55 KwarK wrote:On May 03 2013 05:49 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
You can treat yourself as an object. That's all I have to say about this nonsense. People who sell their sexuality aren't "acting sexual"; they're treating themselves as objects.
And my statement applies to male prostitutes as well as women. It has nothing to do with sexism at all.
You're grasping at straws. Face it: you've got nothing to stand on here. I think you're misunderstanding his point. It's that other people don't get to decide how it's okay for an individual to express themselves (assuming they're not harming anyone). It's not just about you adding things to your list of acceptable ways to be a woman, it's about you not defining the acceptable ways to be a woman. Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects. I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? Nowhere have I stated that dressing a certain way is immoral, luckily. On May 03 2013 05:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
There is nothing wrong with stripping on camera. There is in my opinion something wrong with doing so in order that other people will pay you for it because what you are doing is essentially asking people to objectify you in exchange for cash; ergo you are fine with perception of yourself as an object ergo you agree with it. I would never dream of stopping a person from doing this. But I will certainly judge the action because I feel that it isn't particularly dignified.
Its perfectly fine for you to disagree--as I have said many times already. If you aren't going to say anything and do anything about her stripping--then we are in agreement. As I said, it's okay to disagree. But to go around calling her morally wrong for her actions is absurd. Women are allowed to be sexual, to be beautiful. Women are allowed to do what they want even if you disagree with it. Because she's not doing it for you, she's doing it because she wants to do it. If someone was making her do it--then that's a problem, as much a problem as someone telling her to stop doing it. We don't decide a woman's actions they decide their own actions. ?????? How is calling something morally wrong absurd? Of course you're allowed to be sexual. Of course you're allowed to do things I disagree with. But that has literally nothing to do with the morality of an action. I don't tell women to stop doing it. I don't say anything at all unless I'm asked. And if I'm asked, I'll say that what I think they're doing is immoral, but that they're free to do so if they wish. Similarly, I don't tell people who believe, say, that welfare is bad, that they're not allowed to think so, but merely that their position is immoral. I'm not about to go start a talk show devoted to convincing women that their behaviour is incorrect, but I'll certainly state my opinion on the subject in the proper arena (e.g. this thread). " There is in my opinion something wrong with doing so in order that other people will pay you for it because what you are doing is essentially asking people to objectify you in exchange for cash; ergo you are fine with perception of yourself as an object ergo you agree with it. I would never dream of stopping a person from doing this. But I will certainly judge the action because I feel that it isn't particularly dignified." At least read what you quote. Bolded so that you notice this time.
A woman showing skin =/= prostitution. That is a very puritanical belief and is what leads to women being forced to wear burqas.
And if a woman does enjoy having sex, and has it as a passion, and makes money having sex--why should we stop her? Who she wants to have sex with is her call--not ours.
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On May 03 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:32 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:55 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I think you're misunderstanding his point. It's that other people don't get to decide how it's okay for an individual to express themselves (assuming they're not harming anyone). It's not just about you adding things to your list of acceptable ways to be a woman, it's about you not defining the acceptable ways to be a woman. Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects. I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? Nowhere have I stated that dressing a certain way is immoral, luckily. On May 03 2013 05:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
There is nothing wrong with stripping on camera. There is in my opinion something wrong with doing so in order that other people will pay you for it because what you are doing is essentially asking people to objectify you in exchange for cash; ergo you are fine with perception of yourself as an object ergo you agree with it. I would never dream of stopping a person from doing this. But I will certainly judge the action because I feel that it isn't particularly dignified.
Its perfectly fine for you to disagree--as I have said many times already. If you aren't going to say anything and do anything about her stripping--then we are in agreement. As I said, it's okay to disagree. But to go around calling her morally wrong for her actions is absurd. Women are allowed to be sexual, to be beautiful. Women are allowed to do what they want even if you disagree with it. Because she's not doing it for you, she's doing it because she wants to do it. If someone was making her do it--then that's a problem, as much a problem as someone telling her to stop doing it. We don't decide a woman's actions they decide their own actions. ?????? How is calling something morally wrong absurd? Of course you're allowed to be sexual. Of course you're allowed to do things I disagree with. But that has literally nothing to do with the morality of an action. I don't tell women to stop doing it. I don't say anything at all unless I'm asked. And if I'm asked, I'll say that what I think they're doing is immoral, but that they're free to do so if they wish. Similarly, I don't tell people who believe, say, that welfare is bad, that they're not allowed to think so, but merely that their position is immoral. I'm not about to go start a talk show devoted to convincing women that their behaviour is incorrect, but I'll certainly state my opinion on the subject in the proper arena (e.g. this thread). " There is in my opinion something wrong with doing so in order that other people will pay you for it because what you are doing is essentially asking people to objectify you in exchange for cash; ergo you are fine with perception of yourself as an object ergo you agree with it. I would never dream of stopping a person from doing this. But I will certainly judge the action because I feel that it isn't particularly dignified." At least read what you quote. Bolded so that you notice this time. A woman showing skin =/= prostitution. That is a very puritanical belief and is what leads to women being forced to wear burqas.
" in order that other people will pay you for it"
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
in order that other people will pay you for it
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On May 03 2013 06:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:31 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:49 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:37 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
It's actually like talking to a wall that takes what you say and throws it into google translate until it says something completely different, then replies to that.
Newsflash genius:
this : "It doesn't make sense to you that some women like being pretty and others don't?
It doesn't make sense to you its wrong for us to decide for them?"
is not the same as " I'll say that what I think they're doing is immoral"
because despite your attempts to pretend that stripping on camera for money is an exercise for women who "like being pretty" it is objectification.
A woman doing what she chooses to do is not objectification. A woman being used as an object is objectification--because she's being used as an object. You wanting to call women who act sexual immoral is sexist. For much the same reason that if a woman is told she has to strip in front of a camera to increase ratings is sexist. Women's rights is not about putting clothes on women who are naked. Women's rights is about giving women the power to act the way they want to act. You can treat yourself as an object. That's all I have to say about this nonsense. People who sell their sexuality aren't "acting sexual"; they're treating themselves as objects. And my statement applies to male prostitutes as well as women. It has nothing to do with sexism at all. You're grasping at straws. Face it: you've got nothing to stand on here. What I'm standing on has been the same since I started talking in this thread. Women are allowed to do what they want--you acting like a puritan when you see someone naked has nothing to do with them wanting to do it. If they are forced into it, if they have no other choice but to do it, if they are not doing it out of their own free will--then yes its problematic; but not because they're naked, but because their being forced to do things they don't want to do. But if a woman decides she wants to look nice she doesn't need to hear crap from people like you calling her immoral. Why is a woman's desire to take her clothe off ok, while his desire to put her clothe back on is crap? Not taking any sides, just curious.  Because he does not decide when her clothes come on or off. This is a typical answer in such a debate. You don't even try to understand what other people mean. In your mind, everyone who doesnt agree with you, is an evil man who only desires to control women, strip them off their rights and keep them as sandwich slaves in their kitchen. You, just as any other person who starts with this gender equality crap, doesnt care the slightest about actual equality and freedom. Of course it is a woman's right (everyones right infact) to run around in a skimpy dress or strip infront of a camera, but so is it everyone's right to not like this behavior and deem it immoral. You dont want men and women to be equal, you just want men to shut the fuck up, if they dont agree with women. Not liking something is different from attacking. You can always disagree--but policing people who act differently than you is wrong. Men are attacked by misogyny as much as women are--and no, I don't mean "sexism" I mean misogynous ideals. Its not about "shutting up" if you don't agree with a woman--it's not having the right to decide things for a woman. Who is talking about deciding things for women? Being that you equate not telling women what to do with "you just want men to shut the fuck up" apparently that's you.
Haha, this is so funny.
First of all: "not telling" = "shutting up" but that was just for fun.
Second: No one ever said something about telling other people, what they should do or should not do. It's about telling them if they like it or not.
If I say to a woman in a dress: "Your dress is ugly." I dont tell her to take it off, I tell her that I find it ugly. That's voicing an opinion, and the freedom to do is hugely important.
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United States43505 Posts
On May 03 2013 06:32 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 20:41 zatic wrote:On May 02 2013 20:35 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:31 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:28 superstartran wrote:On May 02 2013 20:12 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:10 Prevolved wrote:On May 02 2013 20:07 Ahelvin wrote:On May 02 2013 20:05 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2013 20:03 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
[quote]
But do you disagree that women on the internet naturally get a lot more attention for a disproportionately lesser amount of effort put into whatever? Not relevant. Can you not see that he just rationalised sexist abuse because this girl asked for it by doing something other than going "please send me sexist abuse"? If so, how can you not see that? People like him are literally the problem. Stop responding to him, he is just acting like this because he is a stupid male. Male are always like that : they want to be right even if it means denying the fundamentals of what constitute reality. + Show Spoiler +How does it feel being disqualified on your gender? Yeah man, because two wrongs make a right. ... Did you even read what I wrote previously? There, let me help you. Wrong. Entirely wrong. Feminism is all about making people conscious of the prejudice associated with each gender (and men are also subjected to it, the proof being the existence of words such as "man up" or "get some balls" : men are always expected to act strong, tough...) in order for individuals to be more free of doing what they really want to do and being what they really want to be, independently of what the society would like them to be given their gender.What people do not also realize is that feminism is not about THREATENING MEN. It's about asking for gender not being a valid basis for prejudice, may it be for men and women. Feminism is also realizing men do not have to "man up" all the time, and have the right to display interest in things that are not "manly". Do you feel comfortable being around jocks constantly reminding you that you are not a real man because you do not watch sports, or workout, or that videogames are for sissies? Then congratulation, you are in some way a feminist. Stop pretending these things do not exist. That's actually historically untrue. Women were going to be given suffrage in the United States for example well before the 1900s, but they absolutely refused to even contemplate the possibility of having to participate in things such as the military draft and other historically 'male' obligations. Not only that, the feminists of the early 1900s didn't give a flying fuck that men below the age of 21 were dying in World War I in the hundreds of thousands, they just wanted their own right to vote and didn't care. Any notion that feminism ever was about equality is just an illusion that most feminists like to utilize in their arguments, when in reality it isn't at all. Where do you see a past tense in my post? I said "Feminist IS", not "Feminist WAS, HAS BEEN, or HAS ALWAYS BEEN". When you debate a democrat or a republican, do you debate what people of his or her party said 100 years ago? You do understand that even today that generally most feminists (I don't have an exact number, but I'm willing to bet 90%+) believe that a man should pay for child support, that he should do this, that, etc. and that the woman actually has all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. etc. Not to mention, that feminists even today will fight tooth and nail to prevent women from ever being a part of the draft, despite the fact that they like men have the right to vote. Feminism in general today is a load of bullshit, and it gets exposed big time when you start looking at their positions on child custody, child support, divorce, etc. etc. Alright this is simply completely wrong. Feminism is by definition about gender equality. Feminists oppose all of the things you just listed. You seem to mix up the terms "women" and "feminists" a lot I believe. No, they don't. Don't even fucking lie. Extreme feminists feel that women should have all the power in divorce, child alimony, etc. so don't say that I am wrong. You're the one that is wrong, because I can easily list like 800 articles of feminists opposing more equality on that front. For example, various FEMINIST groups protest and do all sorts of illegal crap to prevent MRA presentations at Universities, but no one ever says anything about. Then again, don't we all just love double standards. Oh, and about women being able to join the Navy? What? http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/peace/DG051-099/dg068.wcoc/dg068.wcochistory.htmRemember, this is the EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT that major feminists groups opposed. Women also historically opposed the military draft during the 1940s because they didn't want to fight in WW2. So all this whole 'feminist wanting equality' is a load of bullshit. Feminists in general have always done what they feel has benefited them, and only benefited them. They could care less about equality among all people.
As a feminist I disagree.
It's not a homogenous movement.
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On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:55 KwarK wrote:On May 03 2013 05:49 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
You can treat yourself as an object. That's all I have to say about this nonsense. People who sell their sexuality aren't "acting sexual"; they're treating themselves as objects.
And my statement applies to male prostitutes as well as women. It has nothing to do with sexism at all.
You're grasping at straws. Face it: you've got nothing to stand on here. I think you're misunderstanding his point. It's that other people don't get to decide how it's okay for an individual to express themselves (assuming they're not harming anyone). It's not just about you adding things to your list of acceptable ways to be a woman, it's about you not defining the acceptable ways to be a woman. Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects. I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves.
"Its your call how you want to behave in front of girls"
"By the way, dont tell girls how to behave, thats not your call"...?
Fuck it, I'm getting something to eat.
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Women getting sexualised? No way.
Women getting trolled? No way.
Acting like women are shunned by the internet community is the dumbest thing I have ever read, there are as many white knights out there as there are people who actually believe a woman outside a kitchen is a woman lost.
Vocal feminists who believe any troll against them is a declaration of war against their entire gender is the reason trolls say sexist things to women.
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I think I'm done with this thread. Lol. ><. Will not be checking it any further. Good luck to you brave enough to remain.
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On May 03 2013 06:41 Morken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:31 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:49 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:42 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
A woman doing what she chooses to do is not objectification. A woman being used as an object is objectification--because she's being used as an object.
You wanting to call women who act sexual immoral is sexist. For much the same reason that if a woman is told she has to strip in front of a camera to increase ratings is sexist.
Women's rights is not about putting clothes on women who are naked. Women's rights is about giving women the power to act the way they want to act. You can treat yourself as an object. That's all I have to say about this nonsense. People who sell their sexuality aren't "acting sexual"; they're treating themselves as objects. And my statement applies to male prostitutes as well as women. It has nothing to do with sexism at all. You're grasping at straws. Face it: you've got nothing to stand on here. What I'm standing on has been the same since I started talking in this thread. Women are allowed to do what they want--you acting like a puritan when you see someone naked has nothing to do with them wanting to do it. If they are forced into it, if they have no other choice but to do it, if they are not doing it out of their own free will--then yes its problematic; but not because they're naked, but because their being forced to do things they don't want to do. But if a woman decides she wants to look nice she doesn't need to hear crap from people like you calling her immoral. Why is a woman's desire to take her clothe off ok, while his desire to put her clothe back on is crap? Not taking any sides, just curious. Because he does not decide when her clothes come on or off. This is a typical answer in such a debate. You don't even try to understand what other people mean. In your mind, everyone who doesnt agree with you, is an evil man who only desires to control women, strip them off their rights and keep them as sandwich slaves in their kitchen. You, just as any other person who starts with this gender equality crap, doesnt care the slightest about actual equality and freedom. Of course it is a woman's right (everyones right infact) to run around in a skimpy dress or strip infront of a camera, but so is it everyone's right to not like this behavior and deem it immoral. You dont want men and women to be equal, you just want men to shut the fuck up, if they dont agree with women. Not liking something is different from attacking. You can always disagree--but policing people who act differently than you is wrong. Men are attacked by misogyny as much as women are--and no, I don't mean "sexism" I mean misogynous ideals. Its not about "shutting up" if you don't agree with a woman--it's not having the right to decide things for a woman. Who is talking about deciding things for women? Being that you equate not telling women what to do with "you just want men to shut the fuck up" apparently that's you. Haha, this is so funny. First of all: "not telling" = "shutting up" but that was just for fun. Second: No one ever said something about telling other people, what they should do or should not do. It's about telling them if they like it or not. If I say to a woman in a dress: "Your dress is ugly." I dont tell her to take it off, I tell her that I find it ugly. That's voicing an opinion, and the freedom to do is hugely important.
Being unable to tell women what to do doesn't mean you can't still talk to them. You can still talk to them, you can still have discussions, heated ones in fact. But if you tell her that she's wrong for wearing that dress that she made a moral mistake for choosing to dress the way she did--that's no different than christians saying you'll go to hell for kissing the wrong people.
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On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:55 KwarK wrote:On May 03 2013 05:49 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
You can treat yourself as an object. That's all I have to say about this nonsense. People who sell their sexuality aren't "acting sexual"; they're treating themselves as objects.
And my statement applies to male prostitutes as well as women. It has nothing to do with sexism at all.
You're grasping at straws. Face it: you've got nothing to stand on here. I think you're misunderstanding his point. It's that other people don't get to decide how it's okay for an individual to express themselves (assuming they're not harming anyone). It's not just about you adding things to your list of acceptable ways to be a woman, it's about you not defining the acceptable ways to be a woman. Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects. I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves.
You can do what you want -- but don't do....
lol, you made my day
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On May 03 2013 06:42 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:55 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I think you're misunderstanding his point. It's that other people don't get to decide how it's okay for an individual to express themselves (assuming they're not harming anyone). It's not just about you adding things to your list of acceptable ways to be a woman, it's about you not defining the acceptable ways to be a woman. Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects. I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves. "Its your call how you want to behave in front of girls" "By the way, dont tell girls how to behave, thats not your call"...? Fuck it, I'm getting something to eat.
Yes...
girls behave how they want
boys behave how they want
that's how it works.
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On May 03 2013 06:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:41 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:31 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:49 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
You can treat yourself as an object. That's all I have to say about this nonsense. People who sell their sexuality aren't "acting sexual"; they're treating themselves as objects.
And my statement applies to male prostitutes as well as women. It has nothing to do with sexism at all.
You're grasping at straws. Face it: you've got nothing to stand on here. What I'm standing on has been the same since I started talking in this thread. Women are allowed to do what they want--you acting like a puritan when you see someone naked has nothing to do with them wanting to do it. If they are forced into it, if they have no other choice but to do it, if they are not doing it out of their own free will--then yes its problematic; but not because they're naked, but because their being forced to do things they don't want to do. But if a woman decides she wants to look nice she doesn't need to hear crap from people like you calling her immoral. Why is a woman's desire to take her clothe off ok, while his desire to put her clothe back on is crap? Not taking any sides, just curious. Because he does not decide when her clothes come on or off. This is a typical answer in such a debate. You don't even try to understand what other people mean. In your mind, everyone who doesnt agree with you, is an evil man who only desires to control women, strip them off their rights and keep them as sandwich slaves in their kitchen. You, just as any other person who starts with this gender equality crap, doesnt care the slightest about actual equality and freedom. Of course it is a woman's right (everyones right infact) to run around in a skimpy dress or strip infront of a camera, but so is it everyone's right to not like this behavior and deem it immoral. You dont want men and women to be equal, you just want men to shut the fuck up, if they dont agree with women. Not liking something is different from attacking. You can always disagree--but policing people who act differently than you is wrong. Men are attacked by misogyny as much as women are--and no, I don't mean "sexism" I mean misogynous ideals. Its not about "shutting up" if you don't agree with a woman--it's not having the right to decide things for a woman. Who is talking about deciding things for women? Being that you equate not telling women what to do with "you just want men to shut the fuck up" apparently that's you. Haha, this is so funny. First of all: "not telling" = "shutting up" but that was just for fun. Second: No one ever said something about telling other people, what they should do or should not do. It's about telling them if they like it or not. If I say to a woman in a dress: "Your dress is ugly." I dont tell her to take it off, I tell her that I find it ugly. That's voicing an opinion, and the freedom to do is hugely important. Being unable to tell women what to do doesn't mean you can't still talk to them. You can still talk to them, you can still have discussions, heated ones in fact. But if you tell her that she's wrong for wearing that dress that she made a moral mistake for choosing to dress the way she did--that's no different than christians saying you'll go to hell for kissing the wrong people.
Exactly, but that's still freedom of speech and not wrong and should not be forbidden.
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On May 03 2013 06:45 Morken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 05:55 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
I think you're misunderstanding his point. It's that other people don't get to decide how it's okay for an individual to express themselves (assuming they're not harming anyone). It's not just about you adding things to your list of acceptable ways to be a woman, it's about you not defining the acceptable ways to be a woman. Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects. I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves. You can do what you want -- but don't do.... lol, you made my day
Is the only possible thing you imagine doing in front of women be telling them how to act?
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United States5162 Posts
On May 03 2013 06:47 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:45 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects.
I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves. You can do what you want -- but don't do.... lol, you made my day Is the only possible thing you imagine doing in front of women be telling them how to act?
Can you quit putting up such ridiculous straw men?
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On May 03 2013 02:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 02:50 Zaqwert wrote:
I'm pretty sure all the chronic complaining and constantly playing the victim is helping these gals overcome sexist stereotypes about women.... Care to add "she's overreacting" or would you rather not go full cliche? If someone is being victimised then bringing attention to it is not playing the victim, it is being the victim. This shouldn't need explaining but apparently it does so here we are. I really dislike sharing tl with the likes of you.
What?
So I guess Adria Richards wasn't playing the victim when she purposely overreacted in order to 'play the victim.' The 'offensive joke' wasn't even made towards her.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Tbh, I grow weary of this bleating. I'll check when I get hone but one columnist for the New Statesman who is female, 4 out of 5 of her recent articles are about sexism online or in gaming. By a writer who is listed under 'gaming'
It's relentless negativity, aimed towards a hobby that many, including myself have damn near dedicated their life to. Go fucking review some games (not aimed at Alanah).
Jesus H Christ, gaming is important to people, perhaps they are frustrated at being made out to be basement dwellers, or they are annoyed at the increasing importance of the 'casual'
Hey let's, instead of this interesting avenue to write about, make another article about sexism in gaming huh?
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On May 03 2013 06:47 Morken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:41 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:31 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
What I'm standing on has been the same since I started talking in this thread.
Women are allowed to do what they want--you acting like a puritan when you see someone naked has nothing to do with them wanting to do it.
If they are forced into it, if they have no other choice but to do it, if they are not doing it out of their own free will--then yes its problematic; but not because they're naked, but because their being forced to do things they don't want to do.
But if a woman decides she wants to look nice she doesn't need to hear crap from people like you calling her immoral.
Why is a woman's desire to take her clothe off ok, while his desire to put her clothe back on is crap? Not taking any sides, just curious. Because he does not decide when her clothes come on or off. This is a typical answer in such a debate. You don't even try to understand what other people mean. In your mind, everyone who doesnt agree with you, is an evil man who only desires to control women, strip them off their rights and keep them as sandwich slaves in their kitchen. You, just as any other person who starts with this gender equality crap, doesnt care the slightest about actual equality and freedom. Of course it is a woman's right (everyones right infact) to run around in a skimpy dress or strip infront of a camera, but so is it everyone's right to not like this behavior and deem it immoral. You dont want men and women to be equal, you just want men to shut the fuck up, if they dont agree with women. Not liking something is different from attacking. You can always disagree--but policing people who act differently than you is wrong. Men are attacked by misogyny as much as women are--and no, I don't mean "sexism" I mean misogynous ideals. Its not about "shutting up" if you don't agree with a woman--it's not having the right to decide things for a woman. Who is talking about deciding things for women? Being that you equate not telling women what to do with "you just want men to shut the fuck up" apparently that's you. Haha, this is so funny. First of all: "not telling" = "shutting up" but that was just for fun. Second: No one ever said something about telling other people, what they should do or should not do. It's about telling them if they like it or not. If I say to a woman in a dress: "Your dress is ugly." I dont tell her to take it off, I tell her that I find it ugly. That's voicing an opinion, and the freedom to do is hugely important. Being unable to tell women what to do doesn't mean you can't still talk to them. You can still talk to them, you can still have discussions, heated ones in fact. But if you tell her that she's wrong for wearing that dress that she made a moral mistake for choosing to dress the way she did--that's no different than christians saying you'll go to hell for kissing the wrong people. Exaclty, but that's still freedom of speech and not wrong and should not be forbidden.
First off--freedom of speech means the government can't touch you for saying what you want.
2nd off--attacking someones lifestyle and calling it morally wrong is an attack on that person and is not a part of free speech. Freedom of speech does not protect bullies it protects opinions. If you bully someone you are attacking them and are hence in the wrong.
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On May 03 2013 06:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:42 Jojo131 wrote:On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects.
I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves. "Its your call how you want to behave in front of girls" "By the way, dont tell girls how to behave, thats not your call"...? Fuck it, I'm getting something to eat. Yes... girls behave how they want boys behave how they want that's how it works.
then doesnt this make your argument kind of moot?
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On May 03 2013 06:47 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:45 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 05:59 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
Implicit presumption of utilitarian ethics. I abide by the Kantian dictum that one should never treat any human being as anything other than an end i.e. not as a means to an end. Selling oneself is treating oneself as a means ergo it is as morally flawed as viewing prostitutes as objects.
I feel that I should reiterate that this has nothing to do with women specifically. I am equally not a fan of male prostitutes. Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves. You can do what you want -- but don't do.... lol, you made my day Is the only possible thing you imagine doing in front of women be telling them how to act?
If I started talking about the pudding I am currently eating, would you also understand that as a sign, that I want to tell women what to do?
Really, how on earth does my post imply that I want to do that?
Don't you see the irony in what you wrote there, by saying everyone can do what he/she wants, immediately followed by something everyone should not do?
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On May 03 2013 06:50 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:42 Jojo131 wrote:On May 03 2013 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:36 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:26 Morken wrote:On May 03 2013 06:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 03 2013 06:11 Shiori wrote:On May 03 2013 06:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Woman taking her clothes off =/= being a prostitute
Selling it is, though, which is what I've said from the start. Stop strawmanning me or I'm just not going to reply to you. It's the SELLING that's the moral issue, not the taking off of clothes. Is she fucking people for money? If yes--that's illegal in the US. If no--then she's not a prostitute. if she wants to dress skimpy while on stream--then that's her call. if someone is making her dress skimpy on her stream--then that is sexist. you can dislike it, you can disapprove of it, but if you go around telling her how she should or shouldn't dress calling her immoral just because she lives life differently than you--then you're crossing the line. You mean like those millions of christians who go around telling people what they should believe in? ?? I don't know how this is relevant. Any group or person trying to police how another group or person should act is wrong. Period. Yet this whole debate is about telling people how to act infront of women. lol Absolutely not. This whole debate is not telling women how to act. How you act in front of them is your call--but don't police how they act themselves. "Its your call how you want to behave in front of girls" "By the way, dont tell girls how to behave, thats not your call"...? Fuck it, I'm getting something to eat. Yes... girls behave how they want boys behave how they want that's how it works. then doesnt this make your argument kind of moot?
My argument is that you don't tell women how to act.
You don't tell them to take off their shirt
You don't tell them to have babies with you
You don't tell them how to act or be
You don't tell them how they act is immoral just because its not something you agree with
Why? because they should be allowed to do the things they want to do without being attacked for it.
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EPT
