@Person #1: Do you? My mother is a teacher, and holy fuck is that a cushy job compared to being a game developer for Activision. Out of all the options you could choose, you had to choose teacher...
I have yet to see a teacher who's spent their entire life from the age of 9-13 being the absolute best teacher possible, spending hours every day after school honing their teaching skills, and working 14 hours a day, many hours without pay and earning close to the minimum wage and worrying about job security. People need to get off their high horse about how hard it is to be a teacher, i agree its honourable, but its not close to any of the more difficult jobs out there.
And if you still don't agree, I've posted my previous discussion down below so you can get a grip.
Teachers in Germany have double the rate of early retirement due to health reasons compared to other public servants. When it was time for writing the final papers for the students (which is two or three times a year), my father would lock himself into his office and would be basically invisible to his family for a week or two, my mother just recently did it again, with over a week of 12+ hour days, 7 days a week.
As it happens, I do not only have two dutiful teachers as parents, I know a couple of really good programmers, one of them even being my bff when I was a teenager. Your age 9-13 thing sounds suspiciously like a tryhard programmer, not like a good one.
edit: and young teachers also have immense pressure to get good marks, as the supply is bigger than demand and only the better ones will become public servants. And for their first two years or so, they are sent anywhere within a 200 mile radius.
@Person #1: Do you? My mother is a teacher, and holy fuck is that a cushy job compared to being a game developer for Activision. Out of all the options you could choose, you had to choose teacher...
I have yet to see a teacher who's spent their entire life from the age of 9-13 being the absolute best teacher possible, spending hours every day after school honing their teaching skills, and working 14 hours a day, many hours without pay and earning close to the minimum wage and worrying about job security. People need to get off their high horse about how hard it is to be a teacher, i agree its honourable, but its not close to any of the more difficult jobs out there.
And if you still don't agree, I've posted my previous discussion down below so you can get a grip.
Teachers in Germany have double the rate of early retirement due to health reasons compared to other public servants. When it was time for writing the final papers for the students (which is two or three times a year), my father would lock himself into his office and would be basically invisible to his family for a week or two, my mother just recently did it again, with over a week of 12+ hour days, 7 days a week.
As it happens, I do not only have two dutiful teachers as parents, I know a couple of really good programmers, one of them even being my bff when I was a teenager. Your age 9-13 thing sounds suspiciously like a tryhard programmer, not like a good one.
edit: and young teachers also have immense pressure to get good marks, as the supply is bigger than demand and only the better ones will become public servants. And for their first two years or so, they are sent anywhere within a 200 mile radius.
So what slugg is saying is, job #1 he has never worked in isnt anywhere near as hard as job #2 he has never worked in.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
are u not allowed to bring ur own food? lol
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
No excuse?
Everybody thinks they are special and somehow different to the rest of the population. All you need is some perspective and you'd have the same excuse as everybody else.
You'd be the only person carrying 5 days worth of "healthy" food to your office. Oh and you probably will also be working weekends. I dunno about you but I'd rather spend my sliver of free time on something that's fun rather than preparing food.
If you can do that I commend your efforts, but I'd think you'd get tired of it after a while.
Depends on what your 5 days of healthy food is but id rather fucking look after myself then make every excuse in the world as to why I cannot be healthy , you're not the only one with programming friends and lots of the ones i know do look after themselves and love their job because they have a passion for what they are doing you are right now just talking about the one company that treats their workers like shit . You are being really specific , I am sure there are alot more people out there who really enjoy their job . You knock teachers a lot but there is one thing that happens to be at least similar between the two . You need to have a passion for what you are doing. If there job is so shitty and they are aware of this before going in , then they must be retarded, oh wait the programmers are not retarded . They know what they sign up for a lot of work , but you are most likely defending a profession that doesn't need defending at the moment . Oh and as a student who studies and stays up all night writing papers , reading my text books who also volunteers to help youth and others less fortunate then me i will take 30 min out of my day to take care of myself so i can operate at my best .
Edit : No I do not think myself special in anyway from the general population , but the excuses i hear are absolutely silly My mother is a financial advisor all she does is work she gets up at 6 and stops working when she falls asleep . Guess what , she still finds time to cook herself something instead of eating chips and drinking soda . Don't make excuses for people who's life you're not living .
@Person #1: Do you? My mother is a teacher, and holy fuck is that a cushy job compared to being a game developer for Activision. Out of all the options you could choose, you had to choose teacher...
I have yet to see a teacher who's spent their entire life from the age of 9-13 being the absolute best teacher possible, spending hours every day after school honing their teaching skills, and working 14 hours a day, many hours without pay and earning close to the minimum wage and worrying about job security. People need to get off their high horse about how hard it is to be a teacher, i agree its honourable, but its not close to any of the more difficult jobs out there.
And if you still don't agree, I've posted my previous discussion down below so you can get a grip.
Teachers in Germany have double the rate of early retirement due to health reasons compared to other public servants. When it was time for writing the final papers for the students (which is two or three times a year), my father would lock himself into his office and would be basically invisible to his family for a week or two, my mother just recently did it again, with over a week of 12+ hour days, 7 days a week.
As it happens, I do not only have two dutiful teachers as parents, I know a couple of really good programmers, one of them even being my bff when I was a teenager. Your age 9-13 thing sounds suspiciously like a tryhard programmer, not like a good one.
edit: and young teachers also have immense pressure to get good marks, as the supply is bigger than demand and only the better ones will become public servants. And for their first two years or so, they are sent anywhere within a 200 mile radius.
So what slugg is saying is, job #1 he has never worked in isnt anywhere near as hard as job #2 he has never worked in.
Being a teacher myself, i can tell you one thing.
Lol.
You need passion for both jobs any dumbass can see that , I wouldn't say any one job is harder than the other. My family has alot of teachers in it and they are some of the hardest working most dedicated people i know , I have no idea what he is talking about .
"Activision has a lot of money. Bobby Kotick has fat stacks, too. The publisher's CEO saw his total cash-and-prizes compensation jump from $8.1 million in 2011 to $64.9 million in 2012, reports Bloomberg, a figure that would make him the second-highest paid CEO among publicly traded U.S. companies.
Kotick is due for another $16 million if the company hits performance targets, too. The bulk of his compensation came in the form of stock awards valued at $55.9 million. (Though they vest over the next five years, Activision is required to report them all at once, now.) The cash salary he got was roughly the same as always, $8.33 million."
How about reinvesting some of that money back into the company instead of feeding that fat double-chin of his? Sorry, but this kind of thing makes me so angry. Rarely does anyone actually deserve to be making this kind of money, not to mention the fact that no one could spend this much money in one lifetime. Has Kotick actually made any innovations, or did he just figure out how to turn it into a money machine?
It makes me sad that Blizzard got into bed with these guys.
Go and find out how much money Neuer makes (the goalkeeper of bayern munich). then come and tell me if jumping left and right and catching balls is worth 20,000,000m euro's. even that girl that played in Twilight made that kind of money from that lousy trilogy.
Well I find this funny but I've done what little I can do. I will never give blizzard one more dollar again after D3. I know it doesn't really matter if it's just one individual but it's a matter of principle.
"Activision Publishing consistently works to align its costs with its revenues – this is an ongoing process. With the completion of development on Deadpool, we are taking a reduction in staff at High Moon Studios to better align our development talent against our slate. Approximately, 40 full-time employees will be impacted globally. We are offering those employees who are impacted outplacement counseling services."
"Like any successful business, Activision Publishing consistently works to align its costs with its revenues—this is an ongoing process. In 2013, we expect to release fewer games based on license properties and as a result are realigning our structure to better reflect the market opportunities and our slate. Approximately, 30 full-time employees have been impacted globally, which represents approximately one half of one percent of Activision Blizzard's employee population. We are offering those employees who are impacted outplacement counseling services."
Activision Blizzard, the video publisher, said on Wednesday that it was cutting 600 jobs globally in the unit that makes Internet games, including the company’s most profitable property, World of Warcraft, which has lost users in recent quarters.
Kotick earned it! More than 650 employees laid off in the past year, only reasonable their salaries and paychecks should go to somebody else in the company.
@Person #1: Do you? My mother is a teacher, and holy fuck is that a cushy job compared to being a game developer for Activision. Out of all the options you could choose, you had to choose teacher...
I have yet to see a teacher who's spent their entire life from the age of 9-13 being the absolute best teacher possible, spending hours every day after school honing their teaching skills, and working 14 hours a day, many hours without pay and earning close to the minimum wage and worrying about job security. People need to get off their high horse about how hard it is to be a teacher, i agree its honourable, but its not close to any of the more difficult jobs out there.
And if you still don't agree, I've posted my previous discussion down below so you can get a grip.
Teachers in Germany have double the rate of early retirement due to health reasons compared to other public servants. When it was time for writing the final papers for the students (which is two or three times a year), my father would lock himself into his office and would be basically invisible to his family for a week or two, my mother just recently did it again, with over a week of 12+ hour days, 7 days a week.
As it happens, I do not only have two dutiful teachers as parents, I know a couple of really good programmers, one of them even being my bff when I was a teenager. Your age 9-13 thing sounds suspiciously like a tryhard programmer, not like a good one.
edit: and young teachers also have immense pressure to get good marks, as the supply is bigger than demand and only the better ones will become public servants. And for their first two years or so, they are sent anywhere within a 200 mile radius.
@Person #1: Do you? My mother is a teacher, and holy fuck is that a cushy job compared to being a game developer for Activision. Out of all the options you could choose, you had to choose teacher...
I have yet to see a teacher who's spent their entire life from the age of 9-13 being the absolute best teacher possible, spending hours every day after school honing their teaching skills, and working 14 hours a day, many hours without pay and earning close to the minimum wage and worrying about job security. People need to get off their high horse about how hard it is to be a teacher, i agree its honourable, but its not close to any of the more difficult jobs out there.
And if you still don't agree, I've posted my previous discussion down below so you can get a grip.
Teachers in Germany have double the rate of early retirement due to health reasons compared to other public servants. When it was time for writing the final papers for the students (which is two or three times a year), my father would lock himself into his office and would be basically invisible to his family for a week or two, my mother just recently did it again, with over a week of 12+ hour days, 7 days a week.
As it happens, I do not only have two dutiful teachers as parents, I know a couple of really good programmers, one of them even being my bff when I was a teenager. Your age 9-13 thing sounds suspiciously like a tryhard programmer, not like a good one.
edit: and young teachers also have immense pressure to get good marks, as the supply is bigger than demand and only the better ones will become public servants. And for their first two years or so, they are sent anywhere within a 200 mile radius.
So what slugg is saying is, job #1 he has never worked in isnt anywhere near as hard as job #2 he has never worked in.
@Person #1: Do you? My mother is a teacher, and holy fuck is that a cushy job compared to being a game developer for Activision. Out of all the options you could choose, you had to choose teacher...
I have yet to see a teacher who's spent their entire life from the age of 9-13 being the absolute best teacher possible, spending hours every day after school honing their teaching skills, and working 14 hours a day, many hours without pay and earning close to the minimum wage and worrying about job security. People need to get off their high horse about how hard it is to be a teacher, i agree its honourable, but its not close to any of the more difficult jobs out there.
And if you still don't agree, I've posted my previous discussion down below so you can get a grip.
Teachers in Germany have double the rate of early retirement due to health reasons compared to other public servants. When it was time for writing the final papers for the students (which is two or three times a year), my father would lock himself into his office and would be basically invisible to his family for a week or two, my mother just recently did it again, with over a week of 12+ hour days, 7 days a week.
As it happens, I do not only have two dutiful teachers as parents, I know a couple of really good programmers, one of them even being my bff when I was a teenager. Your age 9-13 thing sounds suspiciously like a tryhard programmer, not like a good one.
edit: and young teachers also have immense pressure to get good marks, as the supply is bigger than demand and only the better ones will become public servants. And for their first two years or so, they are sent anywhere within a 200 mile radius.
So what slugg is saying is, job #1 he has never worked in isnt anywhere near as hard as job #2 he has never worked in.
Being a teacher myself, i can tell you one thing.
Lol.
You need passion for both jobs any dumbass can see that , I wouldn't say any one job is harder than the other. My family has alot of teachers in it and they are some of the hardest working most dedicated people i know , I have no idea what he is talking about .
For the three of you, just rofl could you be more butthurt?
Not only are half your statements just plain stupid or ignorant, almost none of your statements have anything to do with the discussion or anything I wrote. I never said teachers don't work hard, I am saying game developer pay is disproportionate to the amount they work (and their skillset) and gave teaching as an example.
Please stop being so self-obsessed and realise that everything you said STILL pales in-comparison to being a developer at Activision. I've already posted what life is like there, your personal accounts of mummy and daddy and your "really good programmer friends" (who apparently don't have to practice to get good) still aren't close and have 0 relevance.
On a sidenote, if your friends aren't dedicating their life to programming, I would not want to work with them and many others would not either. Practice makes perfect, basically what you are saying is you don't have to practice to get good, well that explains why your post makes no sense. You remind me of a starcraft player who is stuck in bronze league his whole life and blames the game for his poor success.
Your parents work hard? well good for you so does everyone else.
Here's the original post because people are cutting out my comments and putting them out of context.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote: [quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors.
I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false.
Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole.
The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5.
On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:
On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote: [quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors.
I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false.
Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole.
The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5.
Last time I heard the .NET team were working up to 18 hour days in the final month of a project, but that's besides the point, as you mentioned auditors and I wasn't referring to IT.
Its not like we just work in this little bubble where we don't know what's going on in the other sectors. Its a single building and these organisations are heavy on communication we hear a about what goes on in each others sectors every month, and we also talk to people in other sectors during breaks.
I know they rack up more hours than normal employees but they still get to go home and have normal diets and earn a substantial amount more per hour worked. Also just look at how many employees get fired from Activision by Kotick every year, Job security is just so much better at a consulting firm than a games company.
I personally know employees from both worlds. I can tell you that crunch time and the environment for a games developer at companies like Activision is much worse.
The other thing though, I really want to emphasise the point that software developers spend their entire lives honing their skills. This is a lot less common at a consulting firm, you learn your stuff at uni and when you get home you don't continue to spend more time learning how to become a better accountant/consultant/etc.
Did your girlfriend start learning how to do a tax audit when she was 13 years old, and then continue spending hours learning how to do audits every day after school in her spare time?
For the set of skills and effort that a games developer has, they still don't earn anything close to a senior accountant/consultant at the big four.
Not sure if it is possible to get paid lower than big 4 since they already pay slave wages. Not too sure about job security since EY alone just fired 10 members from their EC team and apparently more purges are underway. I will concede that my big4 comparison was not researched but it was just a throw out for the IB comparison. BTW I work in consulting (not big4 accounting type consulting) and trust me the job security is not good at all. Purges purges everywhere, at least it isn't as bad as the IBs.
I guess the quality of life in your area may not be as good as mine, I mean it did seem really tough from what I saw (just not as much as employees for AAA title companies) so I thought I had the gist of it. It seems strange that slave wages are being paid out to any employee in your firms especially in the big four but I will concede my point as I have no proof to say its not. It was certainly far from the case from my experience.
However even though you think it might be bad, its still a mere shadow compared to working on an AAA title for some companies. I guess its really hard for people to gauge the difference until I give you an example.
How about being put into an interrogation room and being brought to tears, while being told you will never be paid until the game is finished, or getting fired after your work so they don't have to pay you.
Well Activision did just that on Modern Warfare 2.
Activision's investigation allegedly included a six-hour interrogation of West and Zampella in a windowless conference room. The plaintiffs state numerous Infinity Ward employees were also questioned and some even brought to tears during the interrogation. When West and Zampella refused to turn over their personal computers and cell phones, Activision's attorneys allegedly stated the pair was being insubordinate.
Just weeks before Messrs. West and Zampella were to receive the royalties for their hard work on Modern Warfare 2, Activision fired them in the hope that by doing so, it could avoid paying them what they had rightfully earned, and to seize control of the Infinity Ward Studio, to which Activision had previously granted creative control over all Modern Warfare branded games and had, apparently, decided it no longer wanted to live with.
The biggest difference is forced unpaid hours which is very common. What these companies like to do is say, you can "voluntarily" spend the nights sleeping in the office and work over hours for zero pay, however in the "fine print" they say if you don't do that you will get fired, so in the end its not voluntary at all.
You also have to consider that we are in the wake of the GFC, so lay offs aren't that uncommon in any industry. Even in a booming industry, Kotick is absorbing then firing entire companies in the most dehumanising way possible. He hardly deserves this raise when a gaming industry should not be all about the money.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote: [quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
No excuse?
Everybody thinks they are special and somehow different to the rest of the population. All you need is some perspective and you'd have the same excuse as everybody else.
You'd be the only person carrying 5 days worth of "healthy" food to your office. Oh and you probably will also be working weekends. I dunno about you but I'd rather spend my sliver of free time on something that's fun rather than preparing food.
If you can do that I commend your efforts, but I'd think you'd get tired of it after a while.
Depends on what your 5 days of healthy food is but id rather fucking look after myself then make every excuse in the world as to why I cannot be healthy , you're not the only one with programming friends and lots of the ones i know do look after themselves and love their job because they have a passion for what they are doing you are right now just talking about the one company that treats their workers like shit . You are being really specific , I am sure there are alot more people out there who really enjoy their job . You knock teachers a lot but there is one thing that happens to be at least similar between the two . You need to have a passion for what you are doing. If there job is so shitty and they are aware of this before going in , then they must be retarded, oh wait the programmers are not retarded . They know what they sign up for a lot of work , but you are most likely defending a profession that doesn't need defending at the moment . Oh and as a student who studies and stays up all night writing papers , reading my text books who also volunteers to help youth and others less fortunate then me i will take 30 min out of my day to take care of myself so i can operate at my best .
Edit : No I do not think myself special in anyway from the general population , but the excuses i hear are absolutely silly My mother is a financial advisor all she does is work she gets up at 6 and stops working when she falls asleep . Guess what , she still finds time to cook herself something instead of eating chips and drinking soda . Don't make excuses for people who's life you're not living .
Because the skills required to be a game developer are very specific. Its very hard to move out of it, especially if you have a family. C++ is not very widely used, however it is the main required skill in games development and can take decades to master.
Also what happens a lot, such as in the MW2 case. InfinityWard was bought by Activision and then forced under Activisions rules. Its fair to say that these developers did not and could not see what was coming.
Most game developers did not know what they were getting themselves into, I eventually found out and completely overhauled my skillset. I am still an indie developer however and keep in touch with many games developers, one includes a lead programmer for Hitman 1,2,3.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
If you're sleeping under your desk you don't really have the option to pack your own lunch. During crunch some studios keep their employees inside for weeks at a time, if not the entire crunch period. The industry seems to be getting a little better (some studios are putting in gyms and cafeterias) but not all.
As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
Sounds to me like more nerds need to step up for themselves.
Getting forced to stick to a whole week of being in the office is ridiculous. Also, being a game developer is a very specific skillset, i'll grant you that, but the overall practice of programming is very valuable.
As long as you have a decent education and background in computer science, getting a job that doesn't suck the life out of you should be reasonably easy to get. That and government regulations should take care of that, but no one likes to be a whistleblower!
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
Sounds to me like more nerds need to step up for themselves.
Getting forced to stick to a whole week of being in the office is ridiculous. Also, being a game developer is a very specific skillset, i'll grant you that, but the overall practice of programming is very valuable.
As long as you have a decent education and background in computer science, getting a job that doesn't suck the life out of you should be reasonably easy to get. That and government regulations should take care of that, but no one likes to be a whistleblower!
I agree. There really needs to be a proper union for software developers (especially games), unfortunately I've found that many programmers are actually be quite conservatively minded or apathetic, I don't know why.
Currently good working environments are driven by demand, if you are a ThoughtWorks tier scripter, your working environment is luxury compared to a C++ developer. You not only get extremely good pay, but a great environment to work in as well, and they give it to them not because they demand it, but because employers have to claw on their hands and knees just to find a developer like that.
Being a top C++ developer will place you somewhere near the bottom of the rung for scripting languages.
You are going from programming in a shallow structured paradigm where obsessive compulsiveness over hardware resources is a requirement, to deep thinking functional programming where you are required to neglect hardware resources and prioritise code elegance and maintenance.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
I've crunched, not sure who you are to try and talk about my experience.
And, when it's crunch time there's always a choice. If you've chosen to work at a company that doesn't value it's employees, and you've stayed there, then sure it may get rough. However, competent management understands that driving people into the ground isn't the best way to achieve results.
For all of the 'horror' stories you hear in our industry I hear just as many good ones, they just don't make good headlines. "Company gives employees the day off for achieving milestone" isn't as catchy.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
I've crunched, not sure who you are to try and talk about my experience.
And, when it's crunch time there's always a choice. If you've chosen to work at a company that doesn't value it's employees, and you've stayed there, then sure it may get rough. However, competent management understands that driving people into the ground isn't the best way to achieve results.
For all of the 'horror' stories you hear in our industry I hear just as many good ones, they just don't make good headlines. "Company gives employees the day off for achieving milestone" isn't as catchy.
I'm confused as to what you are referring to by your first line. Do you work for InfinityWard?
If you are given a choice, then its not really relevant to what I'm talking about. This thread is about Activision, and I am mostly referring to the developers of that place.
I've worked for a games company too, it was the Australian branch for distribution of Nexon games and it was a great environment, however regular in-fighting on my project made me decide the place wasn't for me. Not really relevant to the discussion though.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
I've crunched, not sure who you are to try and talk about my experience.
And, when it's crunch time there's always a choice. If you've chosen to work at a company that doesn't value it's employees, and you've stayed there, then sure it may get rough. However, competent management understands that driving people into the ground isn't the best way to achieve results.
For all of the 'horror' stories you hear in our industry I hear just as many good ones, they just don't make good headlines. "Company gives employees the day off for achieving milestone" isn't as catchy.
I'm confused as to what you are referring to by your first line. Do you work for InfinityWard?
If you are given a choice, then its not really relevant to what I'm talking about. This thread is about Activision, and I am mostly referring to the developers of that place.
I've worked for a games company too, it was the Australian branch for distribution of Nexon games and it was a great environment, however regular in-fighting on my project made me decide the place wasn't for me. Not really relevant to the discussion though.
You're missing the point that everyone who works at Activision chooses to work there knowing that crunch is a very real possibility. Everyone has their own reasons for accepting jobs, loving games, family needs money etc., but there are still plenty of other companies hiring if things are really that bad.
If you think these people have no choice then there's no point in discussing. You can make any number of excuses for people being in a job they hate but in the end they're just that, excuses.
Shame that its one fatcat getting all the reward rather than the content designers, marketers and everyone else involved with the actual physical work.
On April 29 2013 21:43 Nekovivie wrote: Shame that its one fatcat getting all the reward rather than the content designers, marketers and everyone else involved with the actual physical work.
Most companies have employee incentive plan rewards. I remember doing an engagement on a mining company and the employees got a massive payout due to shares skyrocketing and they had options. Companies just doesn't have to disclose it.
Tech companies give options way more frequently than other companies in my experience. Not sure if gaming is the anomaly.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
I've crunched, not sure who you are to try and talk about my experience.
And, when it's crunch time there's always a choice. If you've chosen to work at a company that doesn't value it's employees, and you've stayed there, then sure it may get rough. However, competent management understands that driving people into the ground isn't the best way to achieve results.
For all of the 'horror' stories you hear in our industry I hear just as many good ones, they just don't make good headlines. "Company gives employees the day off for achieving milestone" isn't as catchy.
I'm confused as to what you are referring to by your first line. Do you work for InfinityWard?
If you are given a choice, then its not really relevant to what I'm talking about. This thread is about Activision, and I am mostly referring to the developers of that place.
I've worked for a games company too, it was the Australian branch for distribution of Nexon games and it was a great environment, however regular in-fighting on my project made me decide the place wasn't for me. Not really relevant to the discussion though.
You're missing the point that everyone who works at Activision chooses to work there knowing that crunch is a very real possibility. Everyone has their own reasons for accepting jobs, loving games, family needs money etc., but there are still plenty of other companies hiring if things are really that bad.
If you think these people have no choice then there's no point in discussing. You can make any number of excuses for people being in a job they hate but in the end they're just that, excuses.
You're missing the point that people who work at Activision did not choose to work there.
On April 29 2013 21:43 Nekovivie wrote: Shame that its one fatcat getting all the reward rather than the content designers, marketers and everyone else involved with the actual physical work.
Most companies have employee incentive plan rewards. I remember doing an engagement on a mining company and the employees got a massive payout due to shares skyrocketing and they had options. Companies just doesn't have to disclose it.
Tech companies give options way more frequently than other companies in my experience. Not sure if gaming is the anomaly.
I've worked at several companies and never seen bonuses handed out at the grass roots level :/
EPT
