On April 29 2013 04:18 Gentso wrote: I didn't read the thread, but it's probably full of people who think it's ridiculous. What's funny to me is that these same people most likely buy these games and more importantly DLC. Every time people complain about gaming going downhill I always say that gamers are to blame, because they propelled this mediocrity.
You are forgetting a key demographic, one that is easily manipulated and mostly unaware of what makes games "good". This group would be the parents of gamer kids, and once you realize how many 8-16 year old's and their parents are a huge part of the reason Activision and EA are as big as they are today, this "don't blame the company, blame the gamer" mentality becomes a lot less meaningful.
As the gaming industry grew, my generation and the one before it had a fairer hand in dictating what "quality" meant in terms of gaming. With far fewer commercials, GameSpot bundles, and, most importantly, a wide and disparate business environment, small time developers had the luxury of trying things out and seeing if the public would enjoy them without the looming threat of corporate take-over or the necessity of bombing the public with massive advertising campaigns. Though things like Kickstarter and the growing indie game scene speaks to this trend in a contemporary sense, they are orders of magnitude smaller and less influential than Activision/EA, and it should be clear that these huge companies success is due to more than simply the fandom of the masses.
It still doesn't matter. There is a demand for this type of game, no matter how terrible a different segment of the gamer population thinks it is. As long as such demand exists, there will be those supplying the goods, and since that demand is large, they'll do well, that is all. There is no blame in milking demanding customers, it's the way business is done that is all.
If you want to target a different audience with your business, making more unique experiences etc, that's great, but that doesn't mean you can fault Activision for seeking a more economically rewarding approach.
lol, it's clear that you feel some need to defend this multimillion dollar company from dissenting opinions on the internet, but, to use your tired business 101 logic, as a consumer, it is my right to say, "I don't like the way Activision does business." It is that simple. You can tell me that they're filling in market space all you want, but that does little in the way of discounting the notion that mega companies like Activision and EA play a huge agential role in shaping that market space in the first place.
Bobby Kotick just got an 800% raise; I don't think he needs mordk's advocacy on the TL forums. I'm sure he appreciates it though.
@Jonny, yeah, I'm hoping that the developer space changes soon so that the risk in putting time and effort into "the next big game" without the backing of a mega-company becomes more feasible.
But farv, all you said was that mord is right. You just represent a certain segment of the gamer population. You just said it fancy to make it sound like your position is more sophisticated culturally so it's right.
Also put down the red flag comrade
You as a consumer have the right to say and since people like what they put out enough to buy it in droves they have the right to ignore your butt. They'd have that right even if you were Joe Vidjagem Player but then it would be a bad business decision.
You don't have the right to get your way just because you imply it'd be better if someone with your perspective was dictator of Activision.
I never said anything about getting my way or about growing out my beard as I organize developers in a revolution, merely that a dislike for the way Activision does business is a tenable and reasonable position, one that can reasonably figure in the exorbitant CEO pay.
You think that taste is taste, and that it cannot be influenced in an inappropriate manner. I disagree.
On April 29 2013 06:01 Euronyme wrote: It's kind of weird American CEOs get payed so well. Swedish CEOs operating companies with twice the revenue have salaries in the 500.000-700.000 USD range.
Why is the difference so small? I would imagine a CEO (if he's the top dog, with a lot of authority) has a lot more impact on revenue than whether or not you have e.g. 10 dime-a-dozen programmers. Is it a cultural thing where the socialist expectations/negative views of such high pay impact that paying a CEO more would not be worth the backlash?
I would say it's a cultural thing that CEO's get paid taht much in the US
Here's a chart for CEO pay in NL it's in Dutch but you can probably read the table.
On April 29 2013 04:18 Gentso wrote: I didn't read the thread, but it's probably full of people who think it's ridiculous. What's funny to me is that these same people most likely buy these games and more importantly DLC. Every time people complain about gaming going downhill I always say that gamers are to blame, because they propelled this mediocrity.
You are forgetting a key demographic, one that is easily manipulated and mostly unaware of what makes games "good". This group would be the parents of gamer kids, and once you realize how many 8-16 year old's and their parents are a huge part of the reason Activision and EA are as big as they are today, this "don't blame the company, blame the gamer" mentality becomes a lot less meaningful.
As the gaming industry grew, my generation and the one before it had a fairer hand in dictating what "quality" meant in terms of gaming. With far fewer commercials, GameSpot bundles, and, most importantly, a wide and disparate business environment, small time developers had the luxury of trying things out and seeing if the public would enjoy them without the looming threat of corporate take-over or the necessity of bombing the public with massive advertising campaigns. Though things like Kickstarter and the growing indie game scene speaks to this trend in a contemporary sense, they are orders of magnitude smaller and less influential than Activision/EA, and it should be clear that these huge companies success is due to more than simply the fandom of the masses.
It still doesn't matter. There is a demand for this type of game, no matter how terrible a different segment of the gamer population thinks it is. As long as such demand exists, there will be those supplying the goods, and since that demand is large, they'll do well, that is all. There is no blame in milking demanding customers, it's the way business is done that is all.
If you want to target a different audience with your business, making more unique experiences etc, that's great, but that doesn't mean you can fault Activision for seeking a more economically rewarding approach.
lol, it's clear that you feel some need to defend this multimillion dollar company from dissenting opinions on the internet, but, to use your tired business 101 logic, as a consumer, it is my right to say, "I don't like the way Activision does business." It is that simple. You can tell me that they're filling in market space all you want, but that does little in the way of discounting the notion that mega companies like Activision and EA play a huge agential role in shaping that market space in the first place.
Bobby Kotick just got an 800% raise; I don't think he needs mordk's advocacy on the TL forums. I'm sure he appreciates it though.
@Jonny, yeah, I'm hoping that the developer space changes soon so that the risk in putting time and effort into "the next big game" without the backing of a mega-company becomes more feasible.
ROFL, you can disagree with his raise as much as you want, that doesn't change facts. I'm sure he doesn't need or care about my advocacy, what I'm saying is pretty simple, there's no moral high ground here, he gets his cash by supplying what people demand, that's what his business does. If you don't like it, well, that's cool, I don't like massive multi millionnaires, but he isn't doing anything inherently wrong while getting this money, he's just selling harmless stuff, who cares.
company has to lay off people but CEO gets massive amounts of $$. Guess the question is, what is inherently wrong?
That is why developers must be very careful not to sell themselves to people who don't share their goals in gaming.
yeah, developers out there: head his advice! Ask for a personal interview with the CEO and if he doesn't share your vision about gaming, don't take the job.
Of course, just go read some CDPR interviews and understand why they don't have a publisher. A publisher who cares more about money than actually good games WILL fire you if you don't get sales, or WILL alter your product to satisfy customer's demands, it's only logical.
the customer demands a good product so good game = what publisher wants by your logic. Also, not seeing how your answer counters my initial post.
Because given the good stock times, the most likely scenario is Activision lay off the workers because of something associated with their work, for example, maybe they failed to meet sales target, maybe their projects weren't appealing to Activision and they didn't want to publish them, something like that. Your post seems to imply that Activision fired the employees because they needed the money, which would not make sense considering the news in this OP, which is why I believe it is not the case, they just didn't want them anymore, for whatever reasons, even if the statement says otherwise.
And this publisher in particular doesn't really want "good games", they want "high-sales" games, and we all know well people don't necessarily buy the best games around.
On April 29 2013 06:01 Euronyme wrote: It's kind of weird American CEOs get payed so well. Swedish CEOs operating companies with twice the revenue have salaries in the 500.000-700.000 USD range.
Why is the difference so small? I would imagine a CEO (if he's the top dog, with a lot of authority) has a lot more impact on revenue than whether or not you have e.g. 10 dime-a-dozen programmers. Is it a cultural thing where the socialist expectations/negative views of such high pay impact that paying a CEO more would not be worth the backlash?
I'm working for a bank that was on the brink of bankruptcy in 2003 when the central bank had to step in to guarantee them loans. Then this guy stepped in, and now it's looked at as one of the most stable and strongest banks in the world with a profit of 760.000.000 USD in the fourth quarter of 2012. The stock would plummet if he left basically, ie he has immense impact on the revenue.
Yes I think it's a bit of a nordic thing. The most popular prime ministers for instance are those who would greet the press in their backyard wearing a bathrobe with a cup of coffee, asking the journalists if they want some breakfast etc. People find that sort of down to earth behaviour very appealing. Prime ministers themselves earn about 220.000USD a year before taxes. Being 'a man of the people' is extremely important for any person with any kind of power who's going to be exposed to the media. I think the general idea is that a person doesn't really need more pay anyway, does he? It's still good, and he can do pretty much whatever he likes. It's not like he's hindered by a lack of money really. People in high offices often get paid a certain amount a long time after they leave as well. Their careers aren't really depending on them being fit and in a young age either, so it's not like athletes who have to quit working after 35 basically.
Yeah a very high variable component in pay is actually very good for the company. People make it sound like that the money that he is getting is as good as in his pocket. He would have to ensure the company runs really well for the next 5 years to see all of it. The stock options themselves generally aren't guaranteed to him (needs to pass a relative and absolute performance on his metrics) and then you have the stock price to account for as well, that is two layers of uncertainty.
On April 29 2013 04:18 Gentso wrote: I didn't read the thread, but it's probably full of people who think it's ridiculous. What's funny to me is that these same people most likely buy these games and more importantly DLC. Every time people complain about gaming going downhill I always say that gamers are to blame, because they propelled this mediocrity.
You are forgetting a key demographic, one that is easily manipulated and mostly unaware of what makes games "good". This group would be the parents of gamer kids, and once you realize how many 8-16 year old's and their parents are a huge part of the reason Activision and EA are as big as they are today, this "don't blame the company, blame the gamer" mentality becomes a lot less meaningful.
As the gaming industry grew, my generation and the one before it had a fairer hand in dictating what "quality" meant in terms of gaming. With far fewer commercials, GameSpot bundles, and, most importantly, a wide and disparate business environment, small time developers had the luxury of trying things out and seeing if the public would enjoy them without the looming threat of corporate take-over or the necessity of bombing the public with massive advertising campaigns. Though things like Kickstarter and the growing indie game scene speaks to this trend in a contemporary sense, they are orders of magnitude smaller and less influential than Activision/EA, and it should be clear that these huge companies success is due to more than simply the fandom of the masses.
It still doesn't matter. There is a demand for this type of game, no matter how terrible a different segment of the gamer population thinks it is. As long as such demand exists, there will be those supplying the goods, and since that demand is large, they'll do well, that is all. There is no blame in milking demanding customers, it's the way business is done that is all.
If you want to target a different audience with your business, making more unique experiences etc, that's great, but that doesn't mean you can fault Activision for seeking a more economically rewarding approach.
lol, it's clear that you feel some need to defend this multimillion dollar company from dissenting opinions on the internet, but, to use your tired business 101 logic, as a consumer, it is my right to say, "I don't like the way Activision does business." It is that simple. You can tell me that they're filling in market space all you want, but that does little in the way of discounting the notion that mega companies like Activision and EA play a huge agential role in shaping that market space in the first place.
Bobby Kotick just got an 800% raise; I don't think he needs mordk's advocacy on the TL forums. I'm sure he appreciates it though.
@Jonny, yeah, I'm hoping that the developer space changes soon so that the risk in putting time and effort into "the next big game" without the backing of a mega-company becomes more feasible.
But farv, all you said was that mord is right. You just represent a certain segment of the gamer population. You just said it fancy to make it sound like your position is more sophisticated culturally so it's right.
Also put down the red flag comrade
You as a consumer have the right to say and since people like what they put out enough to buy it in droves they have the right to ignore your butt. They'd have that right even if you were Joe Vidjagem Player but then it would be a bad business decision.
You don't have the right to get your way just because you imply it'd be better if someone with your perspective was dictator of Activision.
I never said anything about getting my way or about growing out my beard as I organize developers in a revolution, merely that a dislike for the way Activision does business is a tenable and reasonable position, one that can reasonably figure in the exorbitant CEO pay.
You think that taste is taste, and that it cannot be influenced in an inappropriate manner. I disagree.
Come on now farv the way you made your whole consumers' rights stand was very pushy
You say the way they do business but it really comes down to taste doesn't it. If these developers weren't making product - if they were bums, say - your opinion of what Bobby Kotick owes them would be different now wouldn't it. And I don't mean the developers who have a job, I mean the fired ones.
And guess what farv everybody and his cousin was getting computer science degrees in the mid-2000s theres kind of a glut in the market there. bobby kotick is to blame for that? welcome to the market
Oh I think that taste can be influenced in an inappropriate manner I just disagree with it. Sometimes a no is just a no and not a never.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
You really don't know anything about what being a teacher is like do you?
On April 29 2013 06:01 Euronyme wrote: It's kind of weird American CEOs get payed so well. Swedish CEOs operating companies with twice the revenue have salaries in the 500.000-700.000 USD range.
how many swedish companies have twice the revenue of actiblizz?
According to that guys link, 30-40 have more. The ridiculous CEO pay is a very American thing. China has copied us, but most of Europe isn't like this. CEO may get 10-50x more than an average worker, not 1000x.
The ratio of ceo to worker pay has been declining since 2000 in fits and starts.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
You really don't know anything about what being a teacher is like do you?
I agree, you had better re-educate yourself about what people go through on a daily basis for work. I'm sure you have a friend or two who have gone down the path of being a teacher for example.
A day in the life of being a hard-working game dev. is apparently tougher than being a single mom+firefighting+EMS+teaching for a living+peace keeping+nursing+youth worker combined. While you probably did not mean this literally, i would like you to provide some sort of proof for making a statement like that. It's pretty ludicrous.
the pay isn't all that special. the head of large companies are the most important jobs because tehy are in charge of larger scale operations.
for gamers anyway the complaint is about appeasing the lowest common denominator and focusing on flashy, sales pitch stuff instead of game depth and maintaining blizzard culture etc.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
On April 29 2013 05:36 Fyodor wrote: Back in the 70s/80s there was (practically) no internet to inform yourself on a video game's quality. Shelf space in big chains guaranteed success more than anything else. EA dominated shelf space. They pumped out "shovelware" which were extremely low budget games designed to gouge up all the shelf space and make sure everyone was walking out with an EA game. This lead to a market crash because consumers became disappointed by the value proposition of video games.
shelf space did not guarantee success. Great games like Asteroids, Missile Command, Donkey Kong. Arcade Pacman, MULE, Intellivision Baseball, and Lode Runner ruled the day based upon GAME PLAY.
Games like Intellivision Utopia and EA MULE had almost ZERO marketing behind them and became cult classics with an avid following of loyal players... that spread the game's popularity by word of mouth. Intellivision tried to jam "Star Strike" down people's throats... everyone said "fuck you mattel" and was playing Utopia. For 1982... it is 1 fucking great strategy game.
Renting games started in 1980 and people tested out games this way before buying.
the "1983 crash" was caused by every one pirating Commodore 64 games at the total cost of $0. The Commodore 64 has 13 times the memory and 255 times the processing power of an Atari 2600. Everyone was playing games on their C64.
EA made some really innovative titles when the company was first formed and they had very little "marketing muscle". Video companies in general had very little "marketing muscle" in the 1970s because the revenues were so low.
There was more profit in the ARCADE industry than in making home games. And again with ARCADE games .. players dropped a few quarters and if the game sucked balls.. they never played it again.
And then in 1983 the Commodore 64 was born and it annihilated teh Colecovision, Intellivision and Atari once people starting pirating games on their 1541 disk drives.
EA went from nothing in the 1980s to a giant in the 1990s based upon merit not "shovelware".
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
You really don't know anything about what being a teacher is like do you?
I agree, you had better re-educate yourself about what people go through on a daily basis for work. I'm sure you have a friend or two who have gone down the path of being a teacher for example.
A day in the life of being a hard-working game dev. is apparently tougher than being a single mom+firefighting+EMS+teaching for a living+peace keeping+nursing+youth worker combined. While you probably did not mean this literally, i would like you to provide some sort of proof for making a statement like that. It's pretty ludicrous.
@Person #1: Do you? My mother is a teacher, and holy fuck is that a cushy job compared to being a game developer for Activision. Out of all the options you could choose, you had to choose teacher...
I have yet to see a teacher who's spent their entire life from the age of 9-13 being the absolute best teacher possible, spending hours every day after school honing their teaching skills, and working 14 hours a day, many hours without pay and earning close to the minimum wage and worrying about job security. People need to get off their high horse about how hard it is to be a teacher, i agree its honourable, but its not close to any of the more difficult jobs out there.
And if you still don't agree, I've posted my previous discussion down below so you can get a grip.
@Person #2: All you had to do was look at the discussion in next two pages, but I guess that's too hard.
And yeah I'd better reeducate myself, because I've worked in a large consulting firm, spent my entire life since 9 years old wanting to become a game developer, have game developer friends, I have friends who work in charity, I have friends who's mothers/fathers are nurses, my mother is a teacher, my uncle is a firefighter, my grandfather was a policeman and my fathers cousin was assistant commissioner of the police force (2nd highest rank), and my cousin is a professional football player. That pretty much covers every single example he gave.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote: [quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors.
I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false.
Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole.
The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5.
On April 28 2013 15:08 yandere991 wrote:
On April 28 2013 15:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:59 yandere991 wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:55 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote: [quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
So investment bankers deserve to be paid the most then going by your logic considering they absolutely shit on game developers in terms of hours worked per week. Hell I doubt game developers work harder than big4 auditors.
I've worked for Deloitte and that is just plain false.
Please keep talking if you would like to dig yourself a bigger hole.
The word is "doubt". GF worked at EY audit and she was racking up huge hours during tax season. IT guys at big4 work normal 9-5.
Last time I heard the .NET team were working up to 18 hour days in the final month of a project, but that's besides the point, as you mentioned auditors and I wasn't referring to IT.
Its not like we just work in this little bubble where we don't know what's going on in the other sectors. Its a single building and these organisations are heavy on communication we hear a about what goes on in each others sectors every month, and we also talk to people in other sectors during breaks.
I know they rack up more hours than normal employees but they still get to go home and have normal diets and earn a substantial amount more per hour worked. Also just look at how many employees get fired from Activision by Kotick every year, Job security is just so much better at a consulting firm than a games company.
I personally know employees from both worlds. I can tell you that crunch time and the environment for a games developer at companies like Activision is much worse.
The other thing though, I really want to emphasise the point that software developers spend their entire lives honing their skills. This is a lot less common at a consulting firm, you learn your stuff at uni and when you get home you don't continue to spend more time learning how to become a better accountant/consultant/etc.
Did your girlfriend start learning how to do a tax audit when she was 13 years old, and then continue spending hours learning how to do audits every day after school in her spare time?
For the set of skills and effort that a games developer has, they still don't earn anything close to a senior accountant/consultant at the big four.
Not sure if it is possible to get paid lower than big 4 since they already pay slave wages. Not too sure about job security since EY alone just fired 10 members from their EC team and apparently more purges are underway. I will concede that my big4 comparison was not researched but it was just a throw out for the IB comparison. BTW I work in consulting (not big4 accounting type consulting) and trust me the job security is not good at all. Purges purges everywhere, at least it isn't as bad as the IBs.
I guess the quality of life in your area may not be as good as mine, I mean it did seem really tough from what I saw (just not as much as employees for AAA title companies) so I thought I had the gist of it. It seems strange that slave wages are being paid out to any employee in your firms especially in the big four but I will concede my point as I have no proof to say its not. It was certainly far from the case from my experience.
However even though you think it might be bad, its still a mere shadow compared to working on an AAA title for some companies. I guess its really hard for people to gauge the difference until I give you an example.
How about being put into an interrogation room and being brought to tears, while being told you will never be paid until the game is finished, or getting fired after your work so they don't have to pay you.
Well Activision did just that on Modern Warfare 2.
Activision's investigation allegedly included a six-hour interrogation of West and Zampella in a windowless conference room. The plaintiffs state numerous Infinity Ward employees were also questioned and some even brought to tears during the interrogation. When West and Zampella refused to turn over their personal computers and cell phones, Activision's attorneys allegedly stated the pair was being insubordinate.
Just weeks before Messrs. West and Zampella were to receive the royalties for their hard work on Modern Warfare 2, Activision fired them in the hope that by doing so, it could avoid paying them what they had rightfully earned, and to seize control of the Infinity Ward Studio, to which Activision had previously granted creative control over all Modern Warfare branded games and had, apparently, decided it no longer wanted to live with.
The biggest difference is forced unpaid hours which is very common. What these companies like to do is say, you can "voluntarily" spend the nights sleeping in the office and work over hours for zero pay, however in the "fine print" they say if you don't do that you will get fired, so in the end its not voluntary at all.
You also have to consider that we are in the wake of the GFC, so lay offs aren't that uncommon in any industry. Even in a booming industry, Kotick is absorbing then firing entire companies in the most dehumanising way possible. He hardly deserves this raise when a gaming industry should not be all about the money.
It really baffles me as to why people are shocked.... or even concerned.
Despite what perceived slights you may have from activision, he runs a highly profitable company, and when a CEO creates huge revenue for shareholders they are highly compensated.
Believe it or not, its the way the world works in every industry.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
No excuse?
Everybody thinks they are special and somehow different to the rest of the population. All you need is some perspective and you'd have the same excuse as everybody else.
You'd be the only person carrying 5 days worth of "healthy" food to your office. Oh and you probably will also be working weekends. I dunno about you but I'd rather spend my sliver of free time on something that's fun rather than preparing food.
If you can do that I commend your efforts, but I'd think you'd get tired of it after a while.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:36 sluggaslamoo wrote: Meanwhile Activision developers are struggling to make a living...
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
If you're sleeping under your desk you don't really have the option to pack your own lunch. During crunch some studios keep their employees inside for weeks at a time, if not the entire crunch period. The industry seems to be getting a little better (some studios are putting in gyms and cafeterias) but not all.
On April 29 2013 14:26 Volgor wrote: Where the article about how Activision has increased the pay of all of it's employees due to this profit increase?
Many companies provide stock options to their employees like Kotick. However, unlike him, they are not required to disclose their compensation and what they do with it to the public unless they own significant percentage of the shares. It's as much private as one's salary and income.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wmpZXaN.png)
