On April 29 2013 21:43 Nekovivie wrote: Shame that its one fatcat getting all the reward rather than the content designers, marketers and everyone else involved with the actual physical work.
Most companies have employee incentive plan rewards. I remember doing an engagement on a mining company and the employees got a massive payout due to shares skyrocketing and they had options. Companies just doesn't have to disclose it.
Tech companies give options way more frequently than other companies in my experience. Not sure if gaming is the anomaly.
I've worked at several companies and never seen bonuses handed out at the grass roots level :/
Even Deloitte CE did. You had to write your own performance review, and if you could back your stuff up, and if your Teamlead/Manager agreed, you were looking at up to 20% more salary if things were going well.
Btw, I did work weekend overtime while I was there, but at 200% hourly rate
On April 29 2013 21:43 Nekovivie wrote: Shame that its one fatcat getting all the reward rather than the content designers, marketers and everyone else involved with the actual physical work.
Most companies have employee incentive plan rewards. I remember doing an engagement on a mining company and the employees got a massive payout due to shares skyrocketing and they had options. Companies just doesn't have to disclose it.
Tech companies give options way more frequently than other companies in my experience. Not sure if gaming is the anomaly.
I've worked at several companies and never seen bonuses handed out at the grass roots level :/
Even Deloitte CE did. You had to write your own performance review, and if you could back your stuff up, and if your Teamlead/Manager agreed, you were looking at up to 20% more salary if things were going well.
Btw, I did work weekend overtime while I was there, but at 200% hourly rate
Financial firm? I'm going to say that those companies are known for compensating all levels of employees well.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
I've crunched, not sure who you are to try and talk about my experience.
And, when it's crunch time there's always a choice. If you've chosen to work at a company that doesn't value it's employees, and you've stayed there, then sure it may get rough. However, competent management understands that driving people into the ground isn't the best way to achieve results.
For all of the 'horror' stories you hear in our industry I hear just as many good ones, they just don't make good headlines. "Company gives employees the day off for achieving milestone" isn't as catchy.
I'm confused as to what you are referring to by your first line. Do you work for InfinityWard?
If you are given a choice, then its not really relevant to what I'm talking about. This thread is about Activision, and I am mostly referring to the developers of that place.
I've worked for a games company too, it was the Australian branch for distribution of Nexon games and it was a great environment, however regular in-fighting on my project made me decide the place wasn't for me. Not really relevant to the discussion though.
You're missing the point that everyone who works at Activision chooses to work there knowing that crunch is a very real possibility. Everyone has their own reasons for accepting jobs, loving games, family needs money etc., but there are still plenty of other companies hiring if things are really that bad.
If you think these people have no choice then there's no point in discussing. You can make any number of excuses for people being in a job they hate but in the end they're just that, excuses.
You're missing the point that people who work at Activision did not choose to work there.
On April 29 2013 20:11 ShamW0W wrote: As someone who has been in the industry for a while I can definitely say that you're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle easily if you choose to do so. I currently bring my lunch every day and have my own pool of snacks in my desk to avoid all of the typical snacks that are available in a game studio.
It all comes down to choice and self-control.
I'm curious, if its crunch time and your employers don't want you to leave for a whole week or even several weeks what do you do?
If this has never happened to you, then your experience is outside the realm of the discussion.
I've crunched, not sure who you are to try and talk about my experience.
And, when it's crunch time there's always a choice. If you've chosen to work at a company that doesn't value it's employees, and you've stayed there, then sure it may get rough. However, competent management understands that driving people into the ground isn't the best way to achieve results.
For all of the 'horror' stories you hear in our industry I hear just as many good ones, they just don't make good headlines. "Company gives employees the day off for achieving milestone" isn't as catchy.
I'm confused as to what you are referring to by your first line. Do you work for InfinityWard?
If you are given a choice, then its not really relevant to what I'm talking about. This thread is about Activision, and I am mostly referring to the developers of that place.
I've worked for a games company too, it was the Australian branch for distribution of Nexon games and it was a great environment, however regular in-fighting on my project made me decide the place wasn't for me. Not really relevant to the discussion though.
You're missing the point that everyone who works at Activision chooses to work there knowing that crunch is a very real possibility. Everyone has their own reasons for accepting jobs, loving games, family needs money etc., but there are still plenty of other companies hiring if things are really that bad.
If you think these people have no choice then there's no point in discussing. You can make any number of excuses for people being in a job they hate but in the end they're just that, excuses.
You're missing the point that people who work at Activision did not choose to work there.
Strong within you the reasoning is.
You get employed by awesome gaming company.
You've worked there, gain a solid reputation, friends, become a senior developer / manager.
Activision buys your company and fucks you over big time.
Your family expect you to receive the same wage.
So you decide to stay in the company and get your ass kicked because its too risky to leave and try and get an equally ranked job at another place with the same pay.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote: [quote]
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
are u not allowed to bring ur own food? lol
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
No excuse?
Everybody thinks they are special and somehow different to the rest of the population. All you need is some perspective and you'd have the same excuse as everybody else.
You'd be the only person carrying 5 days worth of "healthy" food to your office. Oh and you probably will also be working weekends. I dunno about you but I'd rather spend my sliver of free time on something that's fun rather than preparing food.
If you can do that I commend your efforts, but I'd think you'd get tired of it after a while.
Depends on what your 5 days of healthy food is but id rather fucking look after myself then make every excuse in the world as to why I cannot be healthy , you're not the only one with programming friends and lots of the ones i know do look after themselves and love their job because they have a passion for what they are doing you are right now just talking about the one company that treats their workers like shit . You are being really specific , I am sure there are alot more people out there who really enjoy their job . You knock teachers a lot but there is one thing that happens to be at least similar between the two . You need to have a passion for what you are doing. If there job is so shitty and they are aware of this before going in , then they must be retarded, oh wait the programmers are not retarded . They know what they sign up for a lot of work , but you are most likely defending a profession that doesn't need defending at the moment . Oh and as a student who studies and stays up all night writing papers , reading my text books who also volunteers to help youth and others less fortunate then me i will take 30 min out of my day to take care of myself so i can operate at my best .
Edit : No I do not think myself special in anyway from the general population , but the excuses i hear are absolutely silly My mother is a financial advisor all she does is work she gets up at 6 and stops working when she falls asleep . Guess what , she still finds time to cook herself something instead of eating chips and drinking soda . Don't make excuses for people who's life you're not living .
Because the skills required to be a game developer are very specific. Its very hard to move out of it, especially if you have a family. C++ is not very widely used, however it is the main required skill in games development and can take decades to master.
Also what happens a lot, such as in the MW2 case. InfinityWard was bought by Activision and then forced under Activisions rules. Its fair to say that these developers did not and could not see what was coming.
Most game developers did not know what they were getting themselves into, I eventually found out and completely overhauled my skillset. I am still an indie developer however and keep in touch with many games developers, one includes a lead programmer for Hitman 1,2,3.
On April 28 2013 14:40 yandere991 wrote: It vests over 5 years and its stock based awards. That is roughly 10 mill variable pay per year without NPV taking effect. Hardly the sensationalist 800% raise.
Yeah you're right, its hardly anything. If I had 55 mill I would want to spend that in a year.
On April 28 2013 14:48 Klipsys wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:45 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On April 28 2013 14:37 wUndertUnge wrote: [quote]
See that's what I'm trying to figure out. What are their salaries? Does this man really deserve all fo that compensation? Shouldn't it go to the people actually doing the work?
Being a game developer for the giants (except probably Blizzard/Valve) leads to a pretty terrible lifestyle. You basically get paid almost a minimum wage even though you are much more qualified and more deserving than the rest of the population.
Most developers such as myself, started out wanting to become game developers and then came to the shocking realisation that its not what its cracked up to be and shifted to much more lucrative careers in the software development industry like web-development, where you can work normal hours and get paid 4 times as much.
More deserving....? MORE DESERVING? You think that developers are more deserving that say, oh; teachers, nurses, police/EMS/Firefighters, social workers, single moms, peacecorps, habitat for humanity, big brothers/bigsisters etc...
How in the...? They make computer games
Stop being ignorant. Making computer games might sound fun, but the reality is the complete opposite for a lot of people. Being humanitarian has nothing to do with making money, money should go to people who put in the most effort, the hardest working developers are games developers, and its a tougher industry than all those jobs you mentioned combined.
Becoming a Teacher is a 3 year course, becoming a programmer is a whole lifestyle.
Did teachers painstakingly spend hours and hours every day after highschool sacrificing their social life so they could learn how to program in C++? No they probably went out to parties and had a social life like everyone else.
Do they work 16-20 hour days during crunch time and never get to see their family for weeks, while your diet consists of cans of soda and cheetos? No teachers work less hours than even normal employees.
Yet they probably get paid about the same amount.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it?
Even though i mostly agree with your post, i find it hard to believe that programmers are forced into an unhealthy diet. Drinking soda and eathing cheetos is their own choice.
For some people, you have a vendor near your cubicle that spits out soda and chips for you and that's what you have for breakfast lunch and dinner because you have to work unpaid overtime and sleep in the office.
thats what i was thinking too haha, regardless iF it is bitch work or not i always eat healthy , i worked as a bee farmer were i had 12-14 hours days wearing this white suit for like three months in the summer and i always packed my own lunch . This job required me to get stung every day lift 120 pound ( 60kg) honey boxes . There is no excuse to not look after yourself just because it is easier.
If you're sleeping under your desk you don't really have the option to pack your own lunch. During crunch some studios keep their employees inside for weeks at a time, if not the entire crunch period. The industry seems to be getting a little better (some studios are putting in gyms and cafeterias) but not all.
On April 29 2013 21:43 Nekovivie wrote: Shame that its one fatcat getting all the reward rather than the content designers, marketers and everyone else involved with the actual physical work.
Most companies have employee incentive plan rewards. I remember doing an engagement on a mining company and the employees got a massive payout due to shares skyrocketing and they had options. Companies just doesn't have to disclose it.
Tech companies give options way more frequently than other companies in my experience. Not sure if gaming is the anomaly.
I've worked at several companies and never seen bonuses handed out at the grass roots level :/
Even Deloitte CE did. You had to write your own performance review, and if you could back your stuff up, and if your Teamlead/Manager agreed, you were looking at up to 20% more salary if things were going well.
Btw, I did work weekend overtime while I was there, but at 200% hourly rate
Yeah you're right actually, we did a similar thing over here, I was once called in for a performance review over someone else, very awkward. I think only seniors got it. I was only there for 6 months so I just forgot lol.
All the other IT focused companies did not hand out bonuses, however the flat rate was still much higher than <insert financial firm here> + 20%.
On April 28 2013 20:26 Lemonhead wrote: Private company X gives employee Y a pay raise, and so what? They can do whatever they want with their money, and they probably think it's a good idea. What private companies want to do with their money is not subject to democracy or anything. We don't get to decide what Bobby should be earning, any more than you get to decide what I'm earning in my job.
Activision is free to pay him as much as they want, we are all free to dislike that and stop buying their products, and anyone is free to apply for Bobby's job if you think you can do a better job for the same money.
You might think you don't like the guy, or you might be jealous of the money, or think it's a little too much. Get over it.
Keep in mind, he's not funded by the government or taking the money from foreign aid or anything. The guy is working in a private company, and got a pay raise.
Because there is something to be said for having a more balanced distribution of wealth in society. Especially in the USA:
i raise you a global inequality:
oh snap, I haven't seen this, nice. Good information in this thread.
On April 29 2013 19:58 sluggaslamoo wrote: On a sidenote, if your friends aren't dedicating their life to programming, I would not want to work with them and many others would not either. Practice makes perfect, basically what you are saying is you don't have to practice to get good, well that explains why your post makes no sense. You remind me of a starcraft player who is stuck in bronze league his whole life and blames the game for his poor success.
This is not an accurate portrayal of software development as a whole. I work with a lot of amazing devs who do not dedicate their lives to it as you're describing. They don't work on side projects at home, they don't spend their free time pouring over literature and honing their skills, they don't work >8 hours a day on average. They do their job on the job, focus on how to get better while they're there, and then go home at the end of the day because it's just a job. If you don't want t work with people who think like that, it's really your loss man.
Hell I have co-workers who have switched into software dev at age 30/35+, and they're doing just fine. There's nothing magical about this shit. Yes it's a skill, yes you have to work on it, but it's not somehow superior to other fields.
On April 29 2013 20:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:Because the skills required to be a game developer are very specific. Its very hard to move out of it, especially if you have a family. C++ is not very widely used, however it is the main required skill in games development and can take decades to master.
C++ is not widely used? That's complete bullshit. Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, ... tons of places use C++ a LOT.
On April 29 2013 23:31 sluggaslamoo wrote:
You're missing the point that people who work at Activision did not choose to work there.
I'm all for valuable and innovative CEO's making money hand over fist. But seriously...what does Kotick do?! Since when is simply "making decisions" considered a million dollar skill? I'd like my 6 kajabillionmillion dollar compensation for deciding on a salad for lunch today pleeeeeeeease.
On April 30 2013 02:04 Klondikebar wrote: I'm all for valuable and innovative CEO's making money hand over fist. But seriously...what does Kotick do?! Since when is simply "making decisions" considered a million dollar skill? I'd like my 6 kajabillionmillion dollar compensation for deciding on a salad for lunch today pleeeeeeeease.
If making decisions earns is a multi-million dollar skill then Mvp should be dining with Bill Gates in his solid gold limo. :-p
Wait, are people really thinking that Bobby Kotics receive this money at the expense of employees? Eh.. the only one getting fucked when excessive wages are paid are the actual capitalists.
If your salad decisions make millions for other... maybe someone will give u money and honey. But then again.. no one cares much about those salads.. so no one give u the holla dolla. :3
On April 30 2013 04:22 lazyitachi wrote: If your salad decisions make millions for other... maybe someone will give u money and honey. But then again.. no one cares much about those salads.. so no one give u the holla dolla. :3
I am quite certain that Mr. Kotick's decisions don't make any money either. It is the people below him actually making decisions.
On April 30 2013 04:22 lazyitachi wrote: If your salad decisions make millions for other... maybe someone will give u money and honey. But then again.. no one cares much about those salads.. so no one give u the holla dolla. :3
I am quite certain that Mr. Kotick's decisions don't make any money either. It is the people below him actually making decisions.
Ok.. I am sure your idea will revolutionise business and save companies millions :3 C-suite is the most redundant part of a company... imagine the savings..
Lazy people who worked many years in the industries to the top and then shaking their legs while others make decisions that make companies profitable. Travesty that is capitalism.
We need equality for everyone! Same pay and same benefits for all!
On April 30 2013 04:22 lazyitachi wrote: If your salad decisions make millions for other... maybe someone will give u money and honey. But then again.. no one cares much about those salads.. so no one give u the holla dolla. :3
I am quite certain that Mr. Kotick's decisions don't make any money either. It is the people below him actually making decisions.
On April 30 2013 04:22 lazyitachi wrote: If your salad decisions make millions for other... maybe someone will give u money and honey. But then again.. no one cares much about those salads.. so no one give u the holla dolla. :3
I am quite certain that Mr. Kotick's decisions don't make any money either. It is the people below him actually making decisions.
You can say what you want about kotick but what you said is wrong. Just read his bio, his influence in the english market and what he has done to sony. Also the prices of guitar hero equipment are his decision.
The general idea or strategy which products and how they get thrown on the market are things that land on his desk.
The ridiculous amount of blatant jealousy and envy in this thread hurts my soul to read. If this was a competitive game and one player was winning a ridiculous amount more than the other players, I hope to god that you people wouldn't be begging for that player to be given an injury to balance the playing field.
Flash wins 70% in every matchup? that is 10% more than the other players, clearly this is wrong, we should break flash's hands, thus redistributing his increased win rate to the other players.
The fact that people are arguing that this is the MORAL solution to the problem is absolutely disgusting.
To continue the metaphor, if a single player was winning significantly more than the other players, we should look to what that player is doing and attempt to raise the level of our own game. This is all the more true when the "game" is our livelihoods, our support for our families, our well being, and last but not least, our happiness as human beings.
Play better and you will win more. If you are struggling, struggle harder, change your approach, find what suits you, play to your advantages, eliminate your disadvantages. Don't ask flash to let you win.
On April 30 2013 05:02 goldenwitch wrote: The ridiculous amount of blatant jealousy and envy in this thread hurts my soul to read. If this was a competitive game and one player was winning a ridiculous amount more than the other players, I hope to god that you people wouldn't be begging for that player to be given an injury to balance the playing field.
Flash wins 70% in every matchup? that is 10% more than the other players, clearly this is wrong, we should break flash's hands, thus redistributing his increased win rate to the other players.
The fact that people are arguing that this is the MORAL solution to the problem is absolutely disgusting.
To continue the metaphor, if a single player was winning significantly more than the other players, we should look to what that player is doing and attempt to raise the level of our own game. This is all the more true when the "game" is our livelihoods, our support for our families, our well being, and last but not least, our happiness as human beings.
Play better and you will win more. If you are struggling, struggle harder, change your approach, find what suits you, play to your advantages, eliminate your disadvantages. Don't ask flash to let you win.
No. If we are going to use metaphors then I suggest: This is like flash getting 1% of his price money and his coach getting the other 99%.
On April 30 2013 05:02 goldenwitch wrote: The ridiculous amount of blatant jealousy and envy in this thread hurts my soul to read. If this was a competitive game and one player was winning a ridiculous amount more than the other players, I hope to god that you people wouldn't be begging for that player to be given an injury to balance the playing field.
Flash wins 70% in every matchup? that is 10% more than the other players, clearly this is wrong, we should break flash's hands, thus redistributing his increased win rate to the other players.
The fact that people are arguing that this is the MORAL solution to the problem is absolutely disgusting.
To continue the metaphor, if a single player was winning significantly more than the other players, we should look to what that player is doing and attempt to raise the level of our own game. This is all the more true when the "game" is our livelihoods, our support for our families, our well being, and last but not least, our happiness as human beings.
Play better and you will win more. If you are struggling, struggle harder, change your approach, find what suits you, play to your advantages, eliminate your disadvantages. Don't ask flash to let you win.
No. If we are going to use metaphors then I suggest: This is like flash getting 1% of his price money and his coach getting the other 99%.
Your metaphor does not hold water. You have two obviously different criteria for deciding who the money belongs to.
Flash plays sc2, succeeds in tournaments, and therefore the money is his. Bobby Kotick plays CEO, succeeds as a company, and therefore the money is his.
This is dramatically opposed to your idea of who the money belongs to.
Flash plays sc2, succeeds in tournaments, and therefore the money is his. Bobby Kotick plays CEO, succeeds as a company, and therefore we should take his earnings and give them to people at random without regard for how much they have made the company.
I mean as a gamer I have to agree that kotick sucks as he just makes shitty cheap products and cuts costs everywhere, but at the same time it's not his fault for maximizing profit, it's what any person would do. The fault for him being successful rests with the people who buy all the shitty cod and other activision games despite them being awful and always the same. If he knows that if he makes the same game again with very little cost or changes and all the people will still buy it, why the hell would he spend extra money to make it better for no extra profit? Yeah it sucks, but that's how the world works.
Well the problem i have, i´m from the horse that i would attack the person itself. His decisions are top notch manager like with a realistic view on how the market and it´s customer works. The gamers get what they deserve it´s that simple. While i could get angry at some sentences he droped or how he manage the company in the lower levels.. the truth is, he´s right with what he said.
EPT
