|
On August 04 2013 04:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:41 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 04:31 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:26 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 03:10 shinosai wrote:Sorites paradox, if we actually make the comparison valid, would go something like this: We have a somewhat vague idea of what a man is, and a somewhat vague idea of what a woman is. In the analogy, we have a vague idea of the difference between grains of sand and a heap of sand. Now, you argue that no matter how much of a transformation we make from a man to a woman, that person can never become a woman, because that person started out as a man. Even if the trans woman is identical to the cis woman, in the same way that the many, many grains of sand are identical to the heap, the transformation can never actually occur. In much the way the paradox argues that a grain of sand can never become a heap of sand. I think you're right. Sorites paradox totally can apply to this. You have to be careful here, philosophy isn't straightforward. If I change my name to Brad Pitt, shave my head like Brad Pitt, surgically alter my facial characteristics to look like Brad Pitt, do I eventually become Brad Pitt? Do you think the Sorietes paradox shows there is no difference between Brad Pitt and a Brad Pitt impersonator? If we did something like the teleporter experiment, where all your atoms are reassembled to be exactly like Brad Pitt's, then yes, you are Brad Pitt, although the other Brad Pitt and you would diverge due to different locations in space, you would still be equally real Brad Pitt's. I have a degree in philosophy, so I think I'll be alright. So, the original Brad Pitt is living his life. He drops by the lab to have his body scanned with extreme precision (though not destroyed, reassembled or teleported), and walks out again. While he is scanned, we assemble an atom-perfect copy of Brad Pitt - for convenience, we will refer to him as Brad Pitt*. You suggest that both of these are the real Brad Pitt, and that people would be wrong if they said that Brad Pitt starred in Fight Club, whereas Brad Pitt* did not? You are not the atoms, you are the pattern in which they are organised. If that were not the case then you'd have bits of you everywhere from shed skin cells and the like.
I agree that you are not your atoms. I still maintain that there is a meaningful difference to be made between Brad Pitt and Brad Pitt*. You failed to give a straight answer to a yes/no question.
|
On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree then 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though.
I don't consider it transphobic, but I do find it a little silly. You could walk up to a beautiful woman, feel a mutual attraction, she could suck your cock, fuck your brains out, and make you cum so hard that it feels like your spinal cord is going to shoot out of the head of your dick.
And you would love it. Why would it change anything if you found out she was declared male at birth?
To reiterate, I don't consider that transphobic, I'm just asking for your own personal insight into why you feel that way. Is it somehow gross? Does it make you less sure of yourself orientation-wise? Where does the discomfort come in?
|
On August 04 2013 04:44 Darkwhite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:43 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 04:31 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:26 Darkwhite wrote:On August 04 2013 03:10 shinosai wrote:Sorites paradox, if we actually make the comparison valid, would go something like this: We have a somewhat vague idea of what a man is, and a somewhat vague idea of what a woman is. In the analogy, we have a vague idea of the difference between grains of sand and a heap of sand. Now, you argue that no matter how much of a transformation we make from a man to a woman, that person can never become a woman, because that person started out as a man. Even if the trans woman is identical to the cis woman, in the same way that the many, many grains of sand are identical to the heap, the transformation can never actually occur. In much the way the paradox argues that a grain of sand can never become a heap of sand. I think you're right. Sorites paradox totally can apply to this. You have to be careful here, philosophy isn't straightforward. If I change my name to Brad Pitt, shave my head like Brad Pitt, surgically alter my facial characteristics to look like Brad Pitt, do I eventually become Brad Pitt? Do you think the Sorietes paradox shows there is no difference between Brad Pitt and a Brad Pitt impersonator? If we did something like the teleporter experiment, where all your atoms are reassembled to be exactly like Brad Pitt's, then yes, you are Brad Pitt, although the other Brad Pitt and you would diverge due to different locations in space, you would still be equally real Brad Pitt's. I have a degree in philosophy, so I think I'll be alright. So, the original Brad Pitt is living his life. He drops by the lab to have his body scanned with extreme precision (though not destroyed, reassembled or teleported), and walks out again. While he is scanned, we assemble an atom-perfect copy of Brad Pitt - for convenience, we will refer to him as Brad Pitt*. You suggest that both of these are the real Brad Pitt, and that people would be wrong if they said that Brad Pitt starred in Fight Club, whereas Brad Pitt* did not? This is getting deep into philosophy (a very popular philosophy discussion, I might add), and while I do enjoy a philosophical discussion, it's frankly veering into deep off topic territory. Thanks for giving a straight answer.
Well if youre interested read pretty much anything by Derek Parfit. Kripkes philosophy of language is also somewhat related to the issue.
Short summary: Since there can be only one Brad Pitt, both cant be Brad pitt. One object has a history that corresponds with being the "real" brad pitt and one object does not. If the original Brad Pitt doesnt survive and we have two copies, then neither is brad pitt. He has lived on however, in that the causal chain of the original goes on into two branches.
|
On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial.
This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency.
In a previous post I debunked many of the reasons that one might feel trans women are different from cis women. So, then, what exactly is the difference?
|
On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency.
Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion?
|
On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency.
And not wanting to have sex with obese people is somehow hidden cacomorphobia (or whatever it's called)?
On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. In a previous post I debunked many of the reasons that one might feel trans women are different from cis women. So, then, what exactly is the difference?
If Michael Jackson started to identify as a white man (I have no idea whether he did, I assume not), would you say he is no different from a naturally born white man?
|
On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion?
Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it.
Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or climbing rocks even though you're afraid of heights?
You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears.
|
On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion?
Well, let me think about it.
Suppose the person dating the biracial woman (who passes as a white woman) had their parents murdered by a black woman in front of their eyes. Therefore, once this person finds out that the woman is biracial, he turns her down because she is biracial and that causes them trauma.
I'd say this is still a bit racist, but understandably so. Sometimes we have legitimate reasons for having phobias. I'd still consider it a bit transphobic, likewise, but understandably so. And I think you should confront those phobias, because they harm innocent people everyday, but I don't hate you if you don't. You're only human.
|
On August 04 2013 04:53 Pierrot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree then 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. I don't consider it transphobic, but I do find it a little silly. You could walk up to a beautiful woman, feel a mutual attraction, she could suck your cock, fuck your brains out, and make you cum so hard that it feels like your spinal cord is going to shoot out of the head of your dick. And you would love it. Why would it change anything if you found out she was declared male at birth? To reiterate, I don't consider that transphobic, I'm just asking for your own personal insight into why you feel that way. Is it somehow gross? Does it make you less sure of yourself orientation-wise? Where does the discomfort come in?
I can't really answer your question. I genuinely don't know how I would respond to that because I can't ever see that situation actually happening to me.
Currently, I feel like the procedures that happen just aren't anywhere near perfect and I do find the imperfection in the procedure to be a little gross at the very least from a purely clinical view - much in the same way I find any sort of surgery to be a little gross. It might be somewhat similar to being turned off by celebrities who undergo an extremely noticeable amount of plastic surgery. It might not be, but at the very least I think the two share the fact that as science further progresses, plastic surgery and transsexual operations will both become less noticeable and more thorough.
It doesn't really make me less secure in-so-far as I don't really see anything wrong with being homosexual. I questioned whether or not I was actually a bisexual at one point in my life but ultimately came to the conclusion that I just wasn't attracted to men the way I am attracted to women.
Ultimately it is very much a philosophical question like the clone example though. Should science one day be able to perfectly replicate the process of transforming one's sex in every way such that it would be entirely impossible to tell whether or not one was born a male or a female from their current status, would there still be a difference between a cis or trans individual that couldn't be detected or changed through science? I don't know, any more than do I know whether or not there would be a difference between a perfectly cloned individual, memories and emotions and all, and it's original copy.
|
On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion? Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it. Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them. You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears.
Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one.
Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference.
By the way I dont feel that way.
|
On August 04 2013 01:18 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 23:20 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 21:19 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 21:07 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2013 19:48 maybenexttime wrote:On August 03 2013 19:34 i_bE_free wrote:On August 03 2013 19:10 Lynda wrote:
Wow, I can't believe people went on for 60 pages in a circle, beating a dead horse, posting very flawed analogies, while reaching both extreme wrong ends, of it being rapey / a redefinition of rape, and that people who at all are uncomfortable having sex with a trans woman are instantly transphobic/bigots and then their consent criterias doesn't matter. And what was achieved? After initially everyone being more or less able to agree that it's morally wrong, congratulations, you just spent a lot of your time arguing for 60 pages about something that apparently the two (I think there were two?) trans women who posted that they are going to do, are going to continue to do anyway without you being able to enforce it, while a lot of people pissed each other off and created a toxic environment.
While I strongly disagree too with the notion of it being rapey / a redefinition of rape, and rather would just call it immoral / being an asshole, I can agree with KwarK that two wrongs don't make a right, not wanting to disclose due to personal safety does not give the moral card to someone to disregard others' consent criterias, because having one night stands isn't a 100% necessity for one's life.
To the two trans women who posted that they're going to do it anyway, what did you expect, to be given a high five and to be given permission to continue doing it? Frankly, it surely isn't helping your cause to passionately post that just because people don't care about your safety then you can completely disregard what could potentially make someone very uncomfortable (hinging on the fact that they never find out and then they won't be), because two wrongs don't make a right. If you love one night stands so much that you think it's an indispensable part of your life and you are going to behave this way, we can't force you not to do it, but then don't passionately post about it while even having the attitude of being on a high horse and then bring up really flawed, sexist statements (even if in defense of rapist accusations that, like I said, I disagree with myself) like men can't be raped.
I might also be negatively biased here though because being a lesbian I don't have this problem, I also don't care about one night stands at all, and it also angers me from the standpoint that people like myself, as well as straight/bisexual trans women who do disclose to their partners, will be lumped in together with straight/bi trans women who don't disclose, and can receive just as heavy of a physical assault from people / friends of people who had not been disclosed to prior but they found out (or from people who heard about that happening and got really angered), as they'll assume about us too that we're just "creepy sexually deviant freaks who trick straight men into having sex with them" as many people probably already think that's what transsexuality is all about (and when I tell them I'm a lesbian they can't comprehend it / don't believe me, as suddenly their entire notion of transsexuality would completely collapse).
But if you're not going to disclose, then at least please don't be a vocal minority online who passionately keeps posting that you won't, while having the attitude that you do not care at all about anyone else's opinion on the matter, because you sure aren't even helping your cause, you are just angering people who would've supported you otherwise and reinforcing people's views that because two trans women posted that they don't disclose, they can automatically generalize that all trans women won't disclose.
As for the extreme accusation of people being bigots/transphobes for not wanting to sleep with a trans woman, that's an extremely flawed stretch; even I myself felt very uncomfortable with the idea even long after I came out to myself, yet I'm a lesbian trans woman myself. So it can be all the more understood that people who are straight cis men could have a much harder time becoming comfortable, if ever. It's not their fault, we have less control over our inner sense of comfort or lack thereof than we'd think, especially when it's been so deeply ingrained due to decades of society brainwashing us into thinking that it's horribly wrong and disgusting.
People can work on their internalized transphobia, but those who won't fully be able to get rid of that sense of discomfort regarding sleeping with a straight/bi trans woman are at no fault so long as they accept trans people as their identified gender in every other way. It's society's fault, so calling those people at all transphobic, especially when they are actually supportive, is not going to help anyone; if anything, it will just anger them.
I really hope this thread can move on because it's been fucking horribly painful to read. at least the pope seems ok about gays As in believes they should not have homosexual sex because it is a sin? His view on homosexuality and homosexuals is not any different from the official line of the Church. He specifically said "I will not judge them". In Pope speak, that's saying that he is ok with them. You're manipulating what he said, like socially liberal media did. "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" He clearly implied that in order to search for God you need to try to abstain from sinful activity, as you cannot have good will and deliberately lead a sinful life. You can read more about it here: http://catholicism.about.com/b/2013/07/30/pope-francis-on-homosexuality-take-a-deep-breath.htm Oh man my bad, I forgot that the mythical language of Pope Speak can only be translated by experts. I should know better and leave it to the experts, the Conservative media and anyone who would want to roll back that statement. After all, they are the best ones to inform me on what he meant and that it didn't change anything. Making up my own mind would be to difficult. I read the quote and I know what he said and the question that was asked. I know that the statement does not change the entire Catholic church's stance on gays. However, he did not condemn gay people for being gay and said he did not feel it was his place to judge them. If the head of the Catholic church is unwilling to judge someone for being gay, one can assume he also means no one else should. This is a huge change in tone. You then lack reading comprehension because what the pope said was perfectly in line with the Church's teachings in that regard. In stead of going off on a tangent, based solely on your misinformed opinion of what the Church teaches about homosexuality, maybe you should inform yourself. Not to mention the fact that he did condemn homosexual activism and lobbying. Stop imagining things.
Right, I read it and saw a bunch of conservatives running a website attempting to make an argument that the statement did not mean the Pope approved of being gay. I mean, that is what you do when the leader of the Church makes a statement that group may not agree with. Calling me uninformed does not make that less true.
I also find it amusing that you are having a case of selective memory right now, because the Pope stated he was not sure there was a "lobby" within the Church, as he had "never seen their ID cards". He then stated he did not approve of any lobby within the church.
But I am sure both the conservatives and liberals will have very creative interpretations of his statements and what they mean.
|
On August 04 2013 05:01 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. And not wanting to have sex with obese people is somehow hidden cacomorphobia (or whatever it's called)? Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. In a previous post I debunked many of the reasons that one might feel trans women are different from cis women. So, then, what exactly is the difference? If Michael Jackson started to identify as a white man (I have no idea whether he did, I assume not), would you say he is no different from a naturally born white man?
The reason my biracial example works, and your obesity example does not, is because there is no underlying attraction in the latter. As I've said many times before, it's okay if you don't want to date a particular person because you are not attracted to them. If you don't want to date me, that's okay, I don't mind. If you don't want to date that obese person because you're not attracted to her, that's also okay.
But when you like a person, but later find out something about them (they are black, they are transsexual, they have a disability) and decide not to sleep with them solely for that reason, even if it seems like you have a totally legitimate reason (your parents were murdered by blacks, transsexuals freak you out, the disability could interfere with your enjoyment of the sex) - you are discriminating against them solely for their race, origin of birth, or disability, and this is prejudiced.
If Michael Jackson could change his body to be indistinguishable from a white man's, then yes, I would say he is no different from a naturally born white man.
|
On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:
[quote]
Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion? Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it. Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them. You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way.
I wanna answer this one too. The idea coming to the person that their partner is actually a man (and thus gay) is practically the definition of transphobia. I wouldn't call that person tranphobic and I wouldn't even discount them from my potential friends, but that feeling, whether by social conditioning or whatever, is still transphobic in nature.
|
On August 04 2013 04:53 Pierrot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree then 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. I don't consider it transphobic, but I do find it a little silly. You could walk up to a beautiful woman, feel a mutual attraction, she could suck your cock, fuck your brains out, and make you cum so hard that it feels like your spinal cord is going to shoot out of the head of your dick. And you would love it. Why would it change anything if you found out she was declared male at birth? To reiterate, I don't consider that transphobic, I'm just asking for your own personal insight into why you feel that way. Is it somehow gross? Does it make you less sure of yourself orientation-wise? Where does the discomfort come in?
The issue is mental and emotional, not physical. If it was just physical then getting your dick sucked by another dude couldn't be gay, cause after all, it's just getting your dick sucked. Close your eyes and you'd have no way of knowing. Why should you care about the origin of the mouth, right?
The discomfort comes from, while you see and feel a girl in front of you, you feel (emotionally) like it's a man in front of you, because of their origins. Obviously this creates an inner conflict, which makes people feel uncomfortable.
Some people don't have issue with it, because they just look at what's in front of them and leave it at that. Others can't help but think about the past of the person.
|
On August 04 2013 05:07 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:53 Pierrot wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree then 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. I don't consider it transphobic, but I do find it a little silly. You could walk up to a beautiful woman, feel a mutual attraction, she could suck your cock, fuck your brains out, and make you cum so hard that it feels like your spinal cord is going to shoot out of the head of your dick. And you would love it. Why would it change anything if you found out she was declared male at birth? To reiterate, I don't consider that transphobic, I'm just asking for your own personal insight into why you feel that way. Is it somehow gross? Does it make you less sure of yourself orientation-wise? Where does the discomfort come in? I can't really answer your question. I genuinely don't know how I would respond to that because I can't ever see that situation actually happening to me. Currently, I feel like the procedures that happen just aren't anywhere near perfect and I do find the imperfection in the procedure to be a little gross at the very least from a purely clinical view - much in the same way I find any sort of surgery to be a little gross. It might be somewhat similar to being turned off by celebrities who undergo an extremely noticeable amount of plastic surgery. It might not be, but at the very least I think the two share the fact that as science further progresses, plastic surgery and transsexual operations will both become less noticeable and more thorough. It doesn't really make me less secure in-so-far as I don't really see anything wrong with being homosexual. I questioned whether or not I was actually a bisexual at one point in my life but ultimately came to the conclusion that I just wasn't attracted to men the way I am attracted to women. Ultimately it is very much a philosophical question like the clone example though. Should science one day be able to perfectly replicate the process of transforming one's sex in every way such that it would be entirely impossible to tell whether or not one was born a male or a female from their current status, would there still be a difference between a cis or trans individual that couldn't be detected or changed through science? I don't know, any more than do I know whether or not there would be a difference between a perfectly cloned individual, memories and emotions and all, and it's original copy.
If nothing else, thank you for being honest that you don't know why you feel the way you do. This isn't sarcasm either, by the way.
What you mentioned about SRS is still confusing to me though. "Her vulva looks weird" is pretty much something you could say to any woman ever.
Don't feel like you need to respond to this, I'm on my way out. But thank you again for the calm, mature response. I was uncertain if I inadvertently came across as aggressive when I phrased my question.
|
On August 04 2013 05:07 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 05:04 Wheats wrote:On August 04 2013 04:58 Snusmumriken wrote:On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:
[quote]
Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. Do you consider it a phobia if they simply get a feeling of disgust when they ponder the fact that their sexual partner used to be a man? Fantasy comes along and all of a sudden they picture sucking cock. IE it makes them feel gay by proxy. Is that a phobia in your opinion? Uhh, that is exactly transphobia. Just like being uncomfortable around people of other races is racism, just like being uncomfortable around gay people is homophobia, no matter how much you try to hide it. Is one not an arachnophobe as long as they have a fear and disgust of spiders, even if they put on a brave face around spiders? Or braving your fear of heights doesn't make you not afraid of them. You have to recognize that you are phobic of the things that make you scared or disgusted, and you have to accept that and try to move beyond your fears. Thats not what I asked. I didnt ask what if a person feels disgusted around transexuals in general, I asked specifically what if a person feels gay by proxy by having sex with one. Unless you consider me fatophobic simply for feeling disgusted by the notion of having sex with an extremely fat person, I fail to see the difference. By the way I dont feel that way.
Feeling gay by proxy is transphobia. Your eyes see a woman, you smell her, you taste her. "A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος, Phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is, when used in the context of clinical psychology, a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational." You hear when she tells you she was born male and your brain reacts against all these other sensory inputs with "GROSS A MAN! AM I NOW GAY?"
I'll venture this out there, I *am* trans and I am very uncomfortable around other trans people and myself as a trans person. I am transphobic and wish that I wasn't and try my hardest to overcome it day by day. It is hard, so very hard, it wasn't until I was 23 that I finally admitted that no matter how afraid I was of being trans that it was part of my identity so I could start moving forward with my life.
Everyone has to be able to recognize these biases within themselves before they can try to overcome them.
|
On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. In a previous post I debunked many of the reasons that one might feel trans women are different from cis women. So, then, what exactly is the difference?
You still haven't pointed out where or how I'm being inconsistent; you just keep saying that I am.
I think you can pin it down to any single one issue, but rather it's an issue of holism. The vague predicate paradox could also be relevant here.
For example, your link to men who have swollen breasts - are you telling me that there is no difference between those breasts and natural breasts of a woman? Each one of those examples, like a man being born without a penis, is some form or another of a genetic defect or a medical illness and isn't natural.
If by some chance a man possessed all of these defects that led him to have no penis, breasts, internal female organs, are you really going to try to tell me that he is indistinguishable to an average female? Are you going to tell me that if such a man underwent plastic surgery, that it would be unnoticeable that he had it?
In regards to your point about chromosomes, just because you aren't aware of the fact that they are different isn't grounds for it being disregarded as a difference.
It seems like you're trying to say that reality can be disregarded here as unimportant if there isn't an easily perceivable difference, which I find highly problematic.
If the transsexual procedures of the future are so scientifically perfect and thorough that there is literally no distinguishable difference between a trans woman and a cis woman, then that is an interesting question and you might get away with your accusations if I kept the same stance I do now, but as it stands there are many differences between cis and trans, even if they are sometimes not easily perceptible.
|
On August 04 2013 05:23 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. In a previous post I debunked many of the reasons that one might feel trans women are different from cis women. So, then, what exactly is the difference? You still haven't pointed out where or how I'm being inconsistent; you just keep saying that I am. I think you can pin it down to any single one issue, but rather it's an issue of holism. The vague predicate paradox could also be relevant here. For example, your link to men who have swollen breasts - are you telling me that there is no difference between those breasts and natural breasts of a woman? Each one of those examples is some form or another of a genetic defect or a medical illness and isn't natural. If by some chance a man possessed all of these defects that led him to have no penis, breasts, internal female organs, are you really going to try to tell me that he is indistinguishable to an average female? Are you going to tell me that if such a man underwent plastic surgery, that it would be unnoticeable that he had it? In regards to your point about chromosomes, just because you aren't aware of the fact that they are different isn't grounds for it being disregarded as a difference.
A genetic defect is natural, it occurred as a result of nature acting upon genetic code. One could, or even should, argue from an atheistic viewpoint (even though it falls out of the definition of "natural") that everything that happens is natural and would happen always the same given the same sequence of events down to the quantum level.
|
On August 04 2013 05:23 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 04:54 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:48 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:41 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:35 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On August 04 2013 04:22 shinosai wrote:On August 04 2013 04:18 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I agree 100% that the term "real" man or woman should be avoided entirely for those reasons.
I definitely wouldn't consider myself transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a trans though. Would you not consider yourself a racist if you wanted to sleep with a biracial woman who you thought was white, but upon finding out she wasn't, decided you no longer wanted to sleep with her? If the answer is yes, then at least you're consistent, but I doubt the woman in question would feel the same way you do. If no, then you should reconsider your answer. I think there are far more differences between the sexes than there are differences between "races". The differences between man and woman, be it cis or trans, is far more significant than the differences between black and white. I suppose it might be somewhat racist because I can't really think of any other reason someone would be upset over that for the reasons mentioned above If you can agree that it's somewhat racist, then you should agree that you're a bit transphobic. Which is okay - you have a hangup that a lot of other people do, which is probably related to cultural upbringing. I don't think it's a good analogy though, unless you're willing to admit the difference between a black man and a white man is as great as the difference between a white man and a white woman. And I don't think you'd be willing to concede that. Correct me if I'm wrong. I concede that the difference between a white woman and a biracial woman who appears white is less than or equal to the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman. It's a rather easy concession to make, since I don't think that there's a meaningful difference between trans women and cis women. I think ideally in a future where the actual scientific transformation process is much more refined and thorough, you might be right. Currently though, I see a significant enough difference between cis and trans women to warrant not wanting to sleep with a trans woman. Going into where the line is drawn is where the paradox arises. I definitely don't see how that makes me a transphobe. Further, I don't see how I am being inconsistent for thinking that in the situation regarding race, one actually might be somewhat racist for not wanting to sleep with someone who appears white but is actually biracial purely for the reason that they are biracial. This is the hidden transphobic attitude that motivates your inconsistency. In a previous post I debunked many of the reasons that one might feel trans women are different from cis women. So, then, what exactly is the difference? You still haven't pointed out where or how I'm being inconsistent; you just keep saying that I am. I think you can pin it down to any single one issue, but rather it's an issue of holism. The vague predicate paradox could also be relevant here. For example, your link to men who have swollen breasts - are you telling me that there is no difference between those breasts and natural breasts of a woman? Each one of those examples is some form or another of a genetic defect or a medical illness and isn't natural. If by some chance a man possessed all of these defects that led him to have no penis, breasts, internal female organs, are you really going to try to tell me that he is indistinguishable to an average female? Are you going to tell me that if such a man underwent plastic surgery, that it would be unnoticeable that he had it? In regards to your point about chromosomes, just because you aren't aware of the fact that they are different isn't grounds for it being disregarded as a difference.
You missed the point. The point is that you cannot define a man by his penis, lack of breasts, or lack of internal female organs. He's still a man, even though he lacks those characteristics.
About gynecomastia... the breast tissue is the same sort of tissue as a woman's breast tissue. Sometimes the issue comes up because of excessive amounts of testosterone, which is converted into estrogen (a hormone responsible for the development of breasts). So, yes, they are actually the same.
I'm calling you inconsistent because you call a person who refuses to sleep with someone solely because of their race a racist, but refuse to say the same thing about someone who refuses to sleep with someone solely because of their trans status. How are they different? You have not said anything convincing, so I still believe you are inconsistent.
|
If the transsexual procedures of the future are so scientifically perfect and thorough that there is literally no distinguishable difference between a trans woman and a cis woman, then that is an interesting question and you might get away with your accusations if I kept the same stance I do now, but as it stands there are many differences between cis and trans, even if they are sometimes not easily perceptible.
Tell me about those differences, then. What is a characteristic of a trans woman that no cis woman has? In the present, I don't own a time machine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
