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On February 24 2013 06:30 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. yup. welcome to the human condition. guess you'd better start thinking about what kind of government you'd like to have. "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains." bummer, huh?
Humanity invented government. Therefore it is not inherent and cannot be part of the human condition. Some of you really live in a scary world if you think slavery is the human condition....
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On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
A choice to remain in the country when I reached adulthood? It is my home. I cannot come into your home and make demands of you because you refuse to leave. "Your choice to stay in your home means you are granting consent for me to rape you." What????
If I own property and you are renting it from me, I can kick you out if you don't pay rent. And still charge for unpaid rent
If you live in an apartment/condo complex and you pay rent, but refuse to pay strata fees, you can be kicked out of the complex. And still get charged for those unpaid fees.
You are very fortunate, in fact, that the country can not kick you out for not paying taxes.
Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed.
Wow, seriously? Get a grip.
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On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:19 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:09 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:02 mcc wrote:On February 24 2013 05:40 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft... Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction... Does not satisfy definition of theft, and calling it theft is just a rhetorical trick mostly used by anarcho-capitalist, so do not be surprised by the generalization, The real rhetorical trick is when we take the meaning of a word and then make the exception "unless the government is doing it." We operate under different definitions. I define theft to mean "taking a person's property without consent." That definition does not make me an anarcho-capitalist. Paying taxes is part of the social contract you agreed to in order to remain in the country you live in. You consented to paying those taxes by choosing to live in a nation that provides services and structure by using those taxes. No one is forcing you to pay those taxes, but as long as you enjoy the benefits that those tax dollars are providing, then you must pay for them. I was born into said country. It was not a choice. And consent cannot be implied by forcing a person to leave their nation of origin. It was a choice to remain in that country once you reached the age of adulthood. And for someone who seems to waive all responsibility because you were born in a nation, you seem oddly quick to take all the privileges of being born there. A choice to remain in the country when I reached adulthood? It is my home. I cannot come into your home and make demands of you because you refuse to leave. "Your choice to stay in your home means you are granting consent for me to rape you." What???? Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed.
You don't consent by staying here. You consent by benefiting from everything our society gives you, which is directly tied to the fact that you chose to stay here.
Suppose that you ran up into the wilderness and did not benefit in any way from the multitude of services offered by the government. I seriously doubt that anyone would hold you morally obligated to pay taxes. However, because you have benefited from our school system, our healthcare system, our roads, parks, law enforcement, fire officials, subsidized foods, etc. etc. etc., and you continue to do so, you owe taxes. They are not your property that is being taken. Why? Because you are morally obligated to pay them. Stealing is defined as the unlawful taking of someone's property. You both morally and legally owe taxes because of all of the benefits you have reaped by choosing to stay in this country, so take your hipster, anarcho-capitalist "taxes are theft" crap, grow up, stop being so self-centered, and realize that you belong to a society that you have benefited a LOT from and you owe it to this society to pay some damn taxes.
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On February 24 2013 06:05 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:49 TheFish7 wrote:
The free market cannot solve every problem. The military, schools, healthcare... these are things that cannot be provided by private entities. The consumers of these things have no purchasing power. Supply and Demand does not apply.
Consumers have no purchasing power? Supply and demand does not apply? I have no idea what you are talking about. And all three of your examples have existed in private enterprise form. The question is whether or not it is better or worse than the alternatives. You can't just say "it's not possible" when it clearly is.
The statements might be inaccurate, but the point is that all the things that make market a good thing are not present in the case of healthcare. All the statements about market being efficient are depending on a lot of assumptions and those are to high degree absent from this particular market.
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On February 24 2013 06:32 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:30 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. yup. welcome to the human condition. guess you'd better start thinking about what kind of government you'd like to have. "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains." bummer, huh? Humanity invented government. Therefore it is not inherent and cannot be part of the human condition. Some of you really live in a scary world if you think slavery is the human condition....
humanity invented your strange notion of "freedom," too. go tell the Ur-Father that you wanna be free, and see how he reacts. five bucks says he throws some poo at you and kicks you out of the troupe. nice freedom you got there
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On February 24 2013 06:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
A choice to remain in the country when I reached adulthood? It is my home. I cannot come into your home and make demands of you because you refuse to leave. "Your choice to stay in your home means you are granting consent for me to rape you." What???? If I own property and you are renting it from me, I can kick you out if you don't pay rent. And still charged for unpaid rent If you live in an apartment/condo complex and you pay rent, but refuse to pay strata fees, you can be kicked out of the complex. And still charged for those unpaid fees. You are very fortunate, in fact, that the country can not kick you out for not paying taxes. Show nested quote +Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. Wow, seriously? Get a grip.
I'm gonna break this down very simply for you....
You are assuming I am renting my existence in my nation of birth from the government. This would indicate the government owns everything. If the government owns everything and I can only exist by "renting" my existence from them, it would follow that we are all born into indentured servitude.
Do I have this part correct, before I move on?
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On February 24 2013 06:26 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:23 Ghostcom wrote:
Instead of beating the dead horse, perhaps talking about how it makes sense to charge 200 USD for a test that costs 10 USD (all costs included). It makes perfect "sense". They charge $200 because no one will charge any less than that. That's a capitalist economy at work.
Yeah, sense was the wrong word to use - "fair" would probably be better - what I was getting at was that the system seems flawed. Capitalism is a great idea when there is not a monopoly in place, but healthcare is effectively a monopoly. There is a limited amount of choices given to you (i.e. how many different hospitals are there in your area?) and with the development the US has seen recently the amount of choices is falling.
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On February 24 2013 06:09 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:02 mcc wrote:On February 24 2013 05:40 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise. There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft... Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction... Does not satisfy definition of theft, and calling it theft is just a rhetorical trick mostly used by anarcho-capitalist, so do not be surprised by the generalization, The real rhetorical trick is when we take the meaning of a word and then make the exception "unless the government is doing it." We operate under different definitions. I define theft to mean "taking a person's property without consent." That definition does not make me an anarcho-capitalist.
The exception is not "unless the government is doing it", there is theft in case of government taking property, but taxes in most developed countries are not that. The exception is "unlawful" and "without right". I can also take/use someone else property even though I am not government if it is lawful use. Of course it is more complex as there is such a thing as bad laws, but then we would have to get into really tangential discussion about "rights".
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United States42960 Posts
On February 23 2013 14:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 14:23 Millitron wrote:
If you have a serious illness, you don't pussyfoot around and try tons of half-measures, you take the prescribed medicine, regardless of how bad the side-effects are. I normally stay out of these threads but you are seriously deluded if you truly believe this. If you have a serious illness and you cut insurance out of the picture then you're essentially condemning most of them to death. Many diseases have no cures and only things which treat the symptoms and hence are required to take life long meds. Once the money runs out to support that, the disease takes over and people die. The vast majority of people with serious illness take things pretty damn seriously, its quite insulting to suggest otherwise.
Plexa, it was a metaphor. The healthcare industry is sick, removing insurance is the medicine, people without insurance dying are the side effects.
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On February 24 2013 06:31 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:23 Ghostcom wrote:
Instead of beating the dead horse, perhaps talking about how it makes sense to charge 200 USD for a test that costs 10 USD (all costs included). What test are you talking about? You can't tunnel vision on purely the materialistic cost. Services aren't cheap, and these are professionals you are hiring.
This isn't purely materialistic cost - this is after factoring in the professionals you are hiring - read the article, it is one of the centerpieces in it.
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On February 24 2013 06:34 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:32 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:30 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. yup. welcome to the human condition. guess you'd better start thinking about what kind of government you'd like to have. "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains." bummer, huh? Humanity invented government. Therefore it is not inherent and cannot be part of the human condition. Some of you really live in a scary world if you think slavery is the human condition.... humanity invented your strange notion of "freedom," too. go tell the Ur-Father that you wanna be free, and see how he reacts. five bucks says he throws some poo at you and kicks you out of the troupe. nice freedom you got there
Humanity invented the term, of course. But as it is defined, it has existed before we created the term. Human beings have existed in a state characterized by the absence of human coercion.
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On February 24 2013 06:35 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
A choice to remain in the country when I reached adulthood? It is my home. I cannot come into your home and make demands of you because you refuse to leave. "Your choice to stay in your home means you are granting consent for me to rape you." What???? If I own property and you are renting it from me, I can kick you out if you don't pay rent. And still charged for unpaid rent If you live in an apartment/condo complex and you pay rent, but refuse to pay strata fees, you can be kicked out of the complex. And still charged for those unpaid fees. You are very fortunate, in fact, that the country can not kick you out for not paying taxes. Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. Wow, seriously? Get a grip. I'm gonna break this down very simply for you.... You are assuming I am renting my existence in my nation of birth from the government. This would indicate the government owns everything. If the government owns everything and I can only exist by "renting" my existence from them, it would follow that we are all born into indentured servitude. Do I have this part correct, before I move on?
No, the government owns multitudes of services which you utilize every single day, and you are paying for the usage of those services.
If you choose not to pay for those services, then you are waiving your usage of them. If you choose to remain in your country and utilize those services, it is not "theft" to ask you to pay for them.
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On February 24 2013 06:38 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:34 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:32 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:30 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. yup. welcome to the human condition. guess you'd better start thinking about what kind of government you'd like to have. "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains." bummer, huh? Humanity invented government. Therefore it is not inherent and cannot be part of the human condition. Some of you really live in a scary world if you think slavery is the human condition.... humanity invented your strange notion of "freedom," too. go tell the Ur-Father that you wanna be free, and see how he reacts. five bucks says he throws some poo at you and kicks you out of the troupe. nice freedom you got there Humanity invented the term, of course. But as it is defined, it has existed before we created the term. Human beings have existed in a state characterized by the absence of human coercion.
no, sorry, you know nothing of anthropology. your state of nature has never existed. it's a notion which only comes into being along with the existence of the modern state. nobody ever thought of anything like this until, oh, the 17th century. that's when you start seeing "state of nature" stories being told
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On February 24 2013 06:19 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:09 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:02 mcc wrote:On February 24 2013 05:40 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
Beats me. I think all tax is theft.
Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection".
"You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise. There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft... Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction... Does not satisfy definition of theft, and calling it theft is just a rhetorical trick mostly used by anarcho-capitalist, so do not be surprised by the generalization, The real rhetorical trick is when we take the meaning of a word and then make the exception "unless the government is doing it." We operate under different definitions. I define theft to mean "taking a person's property without consent." That definition does not make me an anarcho-capitalist. Paying taxes is part of the social contract you agreed to in order to remain in the country you live in. You consented to paying those taxes by choosing to live in a nation that provides services and structure by using those taxes. No one is forcing you to pay those taxes, but as long as you enjoy the benefits that those tax dollars are providing, then you must pay for them. I was born into said country. It was not a choice. And consent cannot be implied by forcing a person to leave their nation of origin.
You do not actually have to leave the nation, you just need to leave the society, because if you want to be part of that society you are giving consent. You can easily stay in your country, go live in some wilderness and not interact with the society, I am pretty sure noone will care about you paying taxes.
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On February 24 2013 06:39 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:38 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:34 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:32 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:30 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. yup. welcome to the human condition. guess you'd better start thinking about what kind of government you'd like to have. "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains." bummer, huh? Humanity invented government. Therefore it is not inherent and cannot be part of the human condition. Some of you really live in a scary world if you think slavery is the human condition.... humanity invented your strange notion of "freedom," too. go tell the Ur-Father that you wanna be free, and see how he reacts. five bucks says he throws some poo at you and kicks you out of the troupe. nice freedom you got there Humanity invented the term, of course. But as it is defined, it has existed before we created the term. Human beings have existed in a state characterized by the absence of human coercion. no, sorry, you know nothing of anthropology. your state of nature has never existed.
It is not common, but it has existed. You are definitely wrong about that. In fact, an individual living alone in the wild would fulfill this criteria perfectly.
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On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:19 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:09 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:02 mcc wrote:On February 24 2013 05:40 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft... Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction... Does not satisfy definition of theft, and calling it theft is just a rhetorical trick mostly used by anarcho-capitalist, so do not be surprised by the generalization, The real rhetorical trick is when we take the meaning of a word and then make the exception "unless the government is doing it." We operate under different definitions. I define theft to mean "taking a person's property without consent." That definition does not make me an anarcho-capitalist. Paying taxes is part of the social contract you agreed to in order to remain in the country you live in. You consented to paying those taxes by choosing to live in a nation that provides services and structure by using those taxes. No one is forcing you to pay those taxes, but as long as you enjoy the benefits that those tax dollars are providing, then you must pay for them. I was born into said country. It was not a choice. And consent cannot be implied by forcing a person to leave their nation of origin. It was a choice to remain in that country once you reached the age of adulthood. And for someone who seems to waive all responsibility because you were born in a nation, you seem oddly quick to take all the privileges of being born there. A choice to remain in the country when I reached adulthood? It is my home. I cannot come into your home and make demands of you because you refuse to leave. "Your choice to stay in your home means you are granting consent for me to rape you." What???? Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed.
Not government, society. And yes society you live in dictates the rules. That is fact of life, it is not ethical position, there is no escaping it.
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an individual would only be living alone in the wild if he'd been kicked out of his tribe.
you realize that the "state of nature" you are theorizing was originally developed as a philosophical JUSTIFICATION of the modern state, right? If you are using this notion, you are always-already inside statist discourse. a much more radical break would be to reject this notion entirely - I recommend that you go read Locke, Rousseau, et al and ponder this.
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On February 24 2013 06:42 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:19 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:On February 24 2013 06:09 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:02 mcc wrote:On February 24 2013 05:40 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:
[quote]
Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft... Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction... Does not satisfy definition of theft, and calling it theft is just a rhetorical trick mostly used by anarcho-capitalist, so do not be surprised by the generalization, The real rhetorical trick is when we take the meaning of a word and then make the exception "unless the government is doing it." We operate under different definitions. I define theft to mean "taking a person's property without consent." That definition does not make me an anarcho-capitalist. Paying taxes is part of the social contract you agreed to in order to remain in the country you live in. You consented to paying those taxes by choosing to live in a nation that provides services and structure by using those taxes. No one is forcing you to pay those taxes, but as long as you enjoy the benefits that those tax dollars are providing, then you must pay for them. I was born into said country. It was not a choice. And consent cannot be implied by forcing a person to leave their nation of origin. It was a choice to remain in that country once you reached the age of adulthood. And for someone who seems to waive all responsibility because you were born in a nation, you seem oddly quick to take all the privileges of being born there. A choice to remain in the country when I reached adulthood? It is my home. I cannot come into your home and make demands of you because you refuse to leave. "Your choice to stay in your home means you are granting consent for me to rape you." What???? Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. Not government, society. And yes society you live in dictates the rules. That is fact of life, it is not ethical position, there is no escaping it.
The government is the one taking the money. You can say government is synonymous with "society," whatever that means, but you cannot say it is not government.
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On February 24 2013 06:38 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 06:34 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:32 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 06:30 sam!zdat wrote:On February 24 2013 06:28 rusedeguerre wrote:
Are you saying that governments own the entire planet and human beings are therefore born into their ownership? That we should have no basic human rights except what governments choose to grant us? That morality is determined solely by government dictate? You live in a very strange world indeed. yup. welcome to the human condition. guess you'd better start thinking about what kind of government you'd like to have. "man is born free, but he is everywhere in chains." bummer, huh? Humanity invented government. Therefore it is not inherent and cannot be part of the human condition. Some of you really live in a scary world if you think slavery is the human condition.... humanity invented your strange notion of "freedom," too. go tell the Ur-Father that you wanna be free, and see how he reacts. five bucks says he throws some poo at you and kicks you out of the troupe. nice freedom you got there Humanity invented the term, of course. But as it is defined, it has existed before we created the term. Human beings have existed in a state characterized by the absence of human coercion.
Such state never existed, sorry to bring it up to you, but history disagrees with you.
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