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On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it?
Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax?
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On February 24 2013 04:54 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 03:09 Doublemint wrote:On February 24 2013 01:34 rackdude wrote:On February 24 2013 00:17 Sbrubbles wrote:On February 23 2013 23:36 rackdude wrote:
This is something covered in Economic Development courses as an interesting externality problem. The problem is that the US system is paying for the research of many drugs. This comes at a high cost to the US citizen and is enforced through patents. However, many of of these patents expire much sooner / are not policed in the world market, so the same drugs end up much cheaper everywhere else. So you have this odd problem that the US healthcare system is basically subsidizing most of the healthcare research for the world. So the rest of the world has a positive externality from this, but we get nothing from it. Also, the rest of the world has no incentive to set up as much healthcare research as long as the US has this system they can keep taking from. It's a new take on the tragedy of the commons ordeal. So ... the US healthcare system is subsidizing the health sistems of the rest of the world? And this is because the rest of the world doesn't properly respect US patents? Care to link where you got this from? It sounds awfully absurd, especially considering that the biggest markets for US pharmaceutical companies are, aside from the US market, markets in other developed countries, countries tend to respect international treaties on intelectual properties. I don't know if the US patent system allows for longer-lasting patents than what is internationally accepted in treaties and conventions, but I would also think it unlikely given the US influence in negotiations of this kind. Still, if it truly does, then it's the US's own fault for not adhering to international standards. It isn't my topic of research and the professor who had the full argument is on leave, but here's a few things I could scrounge together on this. Basically, it's not the whole issue, but there is truth to the claim. Prescription drug companies overcharge US customers to account for the fact that other countries have price controls. This way they can keep funding R&D. This does not account for the entirety of the difference in the costs, but it does give a sense as to why prescription drugs have such a large cost difference. Quick Overview: http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/node/4199A Little Detailed: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp048158Some More: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/business/05scene.html?_r=0http://ostina.org/downloads/pdfs/bridgesvol7_BoehmArticle.pdfThe professor also had a lot of other things to say... I can't find my notes on that though. Something about patents for vaccines and countries without firm rule of law. That's where the whole patent dispute comes in. It was quite awhile ago (3 years?). This should be enough to put you on track towards the right research in journals though. Again, this doesn't account for everything (why are doctors here payed so much more? Why are CT scans so much more?) but it does tell you about one of the factors involved. Maybe you should read more carefully what you are posting, or at least something that actually strenghtens your point? From the Consumer watchdog - link 1 you provided for overview. The author of the health affairs study, Prof. Donald Light, argues that the study shows the U.S. drug industry shouldn't get the protection of exorbitant domestic drug prices.
Today's Health Affairs news release said:
"Congressional leaders and others concerned about high prices of new patented drugs will be heartened by this analysis, because lower European prices seem to be no deterrent to strong research productivity,” writes Light. He cites previous research showing that pharmaceutical companies are able to recover research costs and make a "good profit” at European prices, and he rejects the notion that Europeans are “free-riding” on American pharmaceutical research investments.
In fact, U.S. drug pricing looks more and more like the kind of "protection" money extracted by street gangs. The new England journal article basically says what Bush will do ("did" in hindsight) differently than Kerry and why - with the author having some sort of "hunch" how it would pan out if the state took more direct action in determining prices. Yet no hard facts by this Richard G. Frank Harvard Medical dude. What was interesting however is, that there generally is more money involved in the R&D and people working there in the US than anywhere else. So at least it is highly profitable for them I guess, (US) consumers paying the price for that however is not cool. I told you it's not my topic of research and I threw those together really quickly. Guess I didn't read those enough. Still, there is a large debate in the Economic Development community about this being one of the potential causes (at least 3 years ago) and all I was doing was pointing that out to help the discussion move from normal internetness to something that has journal papers on (somewhere, someone here has to be a poliecon guy) and moving along.
np, it just seemed like there was quite a bit of conviction and assurance behind an argument that sounded rather strange to me, so I dug a bit deeper. you provided nice info regardless.
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On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax?
Beats me. I think all tax is theft.
Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection".
"You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail."
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On February 23 2013 14:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 14:23 Millitron wrote:
If you have a serious illness, you don't pussyfoot around and try tons of half-measures, you take the prescribed medicine, regardless of how bad the side-effects are. I normally stay out of these threads but you are seriously deluded if you truly believe this. If you have a serious illness and you cut insurance out of the picture then you're essentially condemning most of them to death. Many diseases have no cures and only things which treat the symptoms and hence are required to take life long meds. Once the money runs out to support that, the disease takes over and people die. The vast majority of people with serious illness take things pretty damn seriously, its quite insulting to suggest otherwise.
For example: hemophilia A. There is no "cure" for this because it is a genetic disorder. It is engrained into the biology of the affected individual. The solution in many cases is to administer prophylactic "factor 8", an essential component of the blood clotting cascade. The catch though is that this recombinant protein drug requires an outrageous amount of money to take consistently over the course of a lifetime. In fact, for some severely affected individuals it can easily cost over $100K/year simply to maintain daily dosing of the drug. This burden is essentially impossible to maintain for most normal people. Most people do not have a handy $100K/year outside of other living expenses to devote to something.
Insurance is necessary. One problem is that not enough people are insured -- not that too many people are insured.
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On February 24 2013 01:42 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 01:18 Gheizen64 wrote:
America better stay away from our costly socialist universal healtcare that is making europe collapse. Stay free forever. No collapse here in Canada. Universal healthcare is awesome. You guys should work on paying your taxes, its amazing what the government can do with the money they are owed :D + Show Spoiler +edit: wish you americans could enjoy it. but theres a cost to it. I dont even know if establishing a universal healtchare system for 350 million ppl in 2013 is possible in terms of $ available to the government...
It would be possible if the money wasn't wasted on absurdly inefficient things (basically all non-military spending) or incredibly unnecessary things (military spending).
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On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail."
If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise.
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On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise.
There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them.
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On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it?
If I don't want a military, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
If I don't want an education, why should my taxes go towards paying for public schools?
If I don't want to be protected by law enforcement/fire officials, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
Oh, right, because these are all essential parts of society.
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On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise. There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them.
Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified.
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On February 24 2013 05:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:
If I don't want a military, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
If I don't want an education, why should my taxes go towards paying for public schools?
If I don't want to be protected by law enforcement/fire officials, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
Oh, right, because these are all essential parts of society.
You can't tell a conservative that, they're all 'me, me me.'
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Wow....a trip to the hospital is more or less the same price as my BSc...
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On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise. There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified.
Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft...
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On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise. There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft...
Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction...
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On February 24 2013 05:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? If I don't want a military, why should my taxes go towards paying for it? If I don't want an education, why should my taxes go towards paying for public schools? If I don't want to be protected by law enforcement/fire officials, why should my taxes go towards paying for it? Oh, right, because these are all essential parts of society.
Law enforcement and education I don't mind so much, because they can be provided locally. It's plainly obvious what you're paying for. Law enforcement has to be public because the legislation it is meant to uphold is passed publicly as well. I suspect private schools could do better, but I'm not going to challenge local public schooling.
Nationalized healthcare and the military? not so much. If I had my way, we wouldn't have much of a military at all, but that's for another thread.
On February 24 2013 05:28 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:
If I don't want a military, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
If I don't want an education, why should my taxes go towards paying for public schools?
If I don't want to be protected by law enforcement/fire officials, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
Oh, right, because these are all essential parts of society. You can't tell a conservative that, they're all 'me, me me.'
Do you like your car? Henry Ford revolutionized the auto industry because he wanted to make money, not because he wanted to improve the world.
How about electricity? Westinghouse came up with the electrical system because he wanted money, not because he wanted to light up the world.
How about food? Farmers don't grow food just to feed everyone, they grow food to make a profit.
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On February 24 2013 05:40 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise. There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft... Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction...
You are choosing to live in a country that has taxes... dont want to pay taxes? Go hide in the wilderness and live like a caveman. Tax is only theft by opinion, and then it's an iddiotic one, because it would be the same as complaining that you keep getting mugged when you live in the middle of a gang's established hideout...
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The free market cannot solve every problem. The military, schools, healthcare... these are things that cannot be provided by private entities. The consumers of these things have no purchasing power. Supply and Demand does not apply.
On February 24 2013 05:40 Millitron wrote:
Do you like your car? Henry Ford revolutionized the auto industry because he wanted to make money, not because he wanted to improve the world.
Do you like the roads you drive your car on? tax dollars paid for them.
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On February 24 2013 05:40 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? If I don't want a military, why should my taxes go towards paying for it? If I don't want an education, why should my taxes go towards paying for public schools? If I don't want to be protected by law enforcement/fire officials, why should my taxes go towards paying for it? Oh, right, because these are all essential parts of society. Law enforcement and education I don't mind so much, because they can be provided locally. It's plainly obvious what you're paying for. Law enforcement has to be public because the legislation it is meant to uphold is passed publicly as well. I suspect private schools could do better, but I'm not going to challenge local public schooling. Nationalized healthcare and the military? not so much. If I had my way, we wouldn't have much of a military at all, but that's for another thread. Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:28 divito wrote:On February 24 2013 05:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:
If I don't want a military, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
If I don't want an education, why should my taxes go towards paying for public schools?
If I don't want to be protected by law enforcement/fire officials, why should my taxes go towards paying for it?
Oh, right, because these are all essential parts of society. You can't tell a conservative that, they're all 'me, me me.' Do you like your car? Henry Ford revolutionized the auto industry because he wanted to make money, not because he wanted to improve the world. How about electricity? Westinghouse came up with the electrical system because he wanted money, not because he wanted to light up the world. How about food? Farmers don't grow food just to feed everyone, they grow food to make a profit.
As if wanting to make money is some sort of excuse for shitty behaviour? That's ridiculous. Most inventions are invented to fix some problem or make some convenience the whole making money thing is just a by-product of making something.
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I think your existence is theft. I had more room on this planet before your sorry ass was born. Give it back please.
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On February 24 2013 05:40 rusedeguerre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2013 05:31 GTPGlitch wrote:On February 24 2013 05:27 rusedeguerre wrote:On February 24 2013 05:18 Simberto wrote:On February 24 2013 05:15 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 05:09 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 05:00 Ghostcom wrote:On February 24 2013 04:52 Millitron wrote:On February 24 2013 04:15 Blargh wrote:
Guys, don't you want a CAPITALIST ECONOMY? You can't just introduce this "socialist" medicare system that spreads the cost over the country as a whole!! It's not like this whole country/world revolves around social interaction and communication, cooperation, etc with other individuals. When someone gets in a car accident, it's clearly all their fault and they deserve to die because I sure as hell was not responsible! Our current system works great!! Demand is always high on medical anything, and so the the costs are too!! Simple economics.
In all srsns, one of the flaws here is that a capitalist system when it comes to hospitals just isn't viable. When you are in an accident and are bleeding to death, you don't moan to the ambulance, "Hey, don't go to that hospital, go to the cheaper one 10 miles away! They have better deals!" It's stupid to leave it to capitalism or economics to decide the price for necessities of life. Hell, it's barely economics at this point. It's just abuse of a social society. For any progressive nation, this is clearly detrimental. Literally EVERY developed nation EXCEPT the United States has a national healthcare system in place. This semi-free market is a joke, especially so when it comes to the medical department. Believe me, medical costs aren't free. But why should people who don't want in on the system be forced to pay for it? If I don't want health insurance, why should I be forced to buy it? Why should you be forced to pay ANY tax? Beats me. I think all tax is theft.Not that being forced to buy insurance is even a tax. You're being forced to pay a private company for a service. That's not a tax, its like paying the mafia "protection". "You really should pay Humana, it'd be a real SHAME if you ended up in jail." If that is your perspective I do not think it would be possible for me, or anyone else to convince you otherwise. There is this weird group of hardcore anarcho-capitalists that appear in every single political discussion in this forum with absurdly weird theories. It is best to simply ignore them. Just because you acknowledge that taxation is theft doesn't make you a hardcore anarcho-capitalist. The only question is when and how much theft can be morally justified. Oh that's right tax which is used to keep the country that you live in functioning and also to pay for services that keep people from dying is definitely theft... Yes, definitely theft. Often morally justified. Apparently people are incapable of making such a distinction...
Does not satisfy definition of theft, and calling it theft is just a rhetorical trick mostly used by anarcho-capitalist, so do not be surprised by the generalization,
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On February 24 2013 05:49 TheFish7 wrote:
The free market cannot solve every problem. The military, schools, healthcare... these are things that cannot be provided by private entities. The consumers of these things have no purchasing power. Supply and Demand does not apply.
Consumers have no purchasing power? Supply and demand does not apply? I have no idea what you are talking about. And all three of your examples have existed in private enterprise form.
The question is whether or not it is better or worse than the alternatives. You can't just say "it's not possible" when it clearly is.
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EPT
