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How North Korea gets funds

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yOngKIN
Profile Joined May 2012
Korea (North)656 Posts
February 16 2013 17:10 GMT
#1
A recent Reuters report detailed how the North Korean government, despite being under a US and UN embargo and despite not having any external economic relations with other countries, is surviving and continues to get money flowing in to fund the dictatorship government and its nuclear program.

The report details some mindboggling operation involving
1. shady insurance transactions
2. illicit drugs
3. financial scams

Most of the times, the NK government uses its diplomats to conduct its operations, avoiding the blacklist and outwitting international sanctions for decades.

There seems to be a big security and intelligence problem on the part of the US and the UN. This might be one of the reason why the north Korean government is emboldened to do its nuclear programs, since its been literally outfoxing the international police at something that it is supposed to be good at.



North Korea uses cash couriers, false names to outwit sanctions

(Reuters) - Kim Kwang-jin says that when he worked for North Korea's state insurance company in Singapore in 2003, he stuffed $20 million into two suitcases one day and sent it to Pyongyang as a special gift for then leader Kim Jong-il.

+ Show Spoiler +
He received a medal for that, Kim Kwang-jin said.

North Korea, sanctioned by the United States since the 1950s and later by the United Nations after its nuclear tests, has been shuffling money for decades from illicit drugs, arms and financial scams and is now more expert at hiding it to fund its weapons programs and its leaders' opulent lifestyles.

"There is tremendous difficulty identifying bank accounts," said a South Korean government source who is directly involved in yet another sanctions push in the U.N. Security Council after the North conducted a third nuclear test this week.

A source who has access to the top levels of government in both North Korea and China, its only major ally, told Reuters that Pyongyang was not afraid of sanctions and was considering two more nuclear tests and a rocket launch this year.

"It is confident agricultural and economic reforms will boost grain harvests this year, reducing its food reliance on China," said the source.

With limited trade and natural resources, Pyongyang's revenues are heavily reliant on money-making scams ranging from fake $100 bills to arms sales and drugs money, according to reports by the U.S. government. Some diplomats and officials call it "The Soprano State" after the U.S. television series.

In 2005, $25 million of the regime's cash was frozen at Macau-based Banco Delta Asia, which was designated a "primary money laundering concern" by the U.S. Treasury.

That case stands as practically the only public success in seizing funds from the isolated country that is now led by 30-year-old Kim Jong-un, the third of the Kim dynasty to rule.

The $25 million was released after protracted negotiations led by Kim Kye-gwan, the North's long-standing negotiator with the United States, and U.S. envoy Christopher Hill, officials present at the talks said.

Pyongyang has learned from that episode and buried its funds even deeper, said the South Korean official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

"The bank accounts are split up a lot," the official said, meaning the money is divided into small amounts so that a freeze on one account would not greatly affect the total.

The official has tried to identify North Korean funds for years and was involved in previous sanctions pushes, although he said that identifying accounts and transactions was near impossible because of the use of fake names.

THE INSURANCE SCAM

Kim Kwang-jin, now living as a defector in South Korea, said the $20 million sent to Kim Jong-il in 2003 came from insurance scams by Pyongyang's Korea National Insurance Corp (KNIC), which exaggerated claims from re-insurers and underwriters for events such as weather damage, ship and aircraft losses.

When contacted by Reuters by telephone and email, KNIC was not immediately available for comment.

Kim Kwang-jin said the money from the scams he participated in was funneled into what he termed North Korea's "royal court fund" - money for Kim Jong-il and his inner circle.

"Kim Jong-il sent a letter of thanks to the people in my company (KNIC). And some of us received presents like DVD players and blankets. I later got a medal too," said the 46-year-old.

Unlike oil-exporting Iran, which is heavily sanctioned by the United States and United Nations as well as others, North Korea's puny $50 billion economy produces few goods other than minerals and seafood sold to China. Its trade with China was put by Beijing at $5.7 billion in 2011.

The U.S. Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Center estimated in 2005 that North Korea may earn as much as $500 million annually from counterfeiting, and another $100 million to $200 million annually from narcotics trafficking.

In just one known example of its role as a "narco-state", a North Korean ship was raided by the Australian navy in 2003 and found to be carrying $50 million worth of heroin, according to the government in Canberra.

Kim Kwang-jin, who defected in 2003 with his family in Singapore, estimated the Pyongyang "royal court" fund at $4.5 billion, of which $2 billion was inside North Korea, $2 billion overseas and a further $500 million in the underground economy of various countries. He said he derived the estimates from his experience as a senior officer handling funds for North Korea.

It was not possible to verify Kim's estimate, although other estimates made by defectors and academics are roughly similar.

The South Korean government source said that part of the new sanctions regime would include trying to intercept shipments of suitcases stuffed with cash to Pyongyang which enable North Korea to evade sanctions on banks.

'BULK CASH' METHOD

North Korea often uses its diplomats and other officials to ferry cash, according to Kim and other defectors and diplomats. This method, called "bulk cash", is largely untraceable.

U.S. diplomats said new sanctions against North Korea that the Security Council might consider could be to add more names to a U.N. blacklist and measures similar to those in place for Iran, which include a U.N. arms embargo, a variety of asset freezes and a ban on some banking relations.

In addition, "you can strengthen the provisions to do with enforcing embargoes, inspecting ships", said a senior U.N. diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Ship inspections have been a feature of the North Korean sanctions regime for a long time. Under a Security Council resolution, U.N. member states can inspect North Korean sea, air and land cargo, and seize and destroy any goods transported in violation of sanctions imposed for its nuclear tests.

North Korean ships have been inspected in India, Thailand, and the United Arab Emirates as well as on the high seas.

Another area where U.N. sanctions could be strengthened is enforcement, especially in China, diplomats say. U.N. experts who monitor sanctions violations have said Pyongyang regularly flouts the sanctions, sometimes by shipping banned goods such as weapons via China.

"If the Chinese would be willing to inspect half of what goes through Dalian harbor, that would be big," said George Lopez, a former U.N. North Korea sanctions monitor, now at the University of Notre Dame.

China's central bank and foreign ministry did not respond to requests for comment as it was the Lunar New Year holiday.

But the source with access to top officials in both countries said China would again support U.N. sanctions, although he declined to comment on what level of sanctions it would be willing to endorse.

"There will be new sanctions which will be harsh. China is likely to agree to it," he said, without elaborating.

He said however that Beijing would not cut food and fuel supplies to North Korea, a measure that it reportedly took after a previous nuclear test.

THE HONG KONG LINK

In January, the Security Council added a raft of companies to a list of sanctioned entities in response to North Korea's long-range rocket launch late last year, which violated a ban on Pyongyang from developing missile or nuclear technology.

These included a company called Leader (Hong Kong) International, listed with a Hong Kong address that was named as a subsidiary of Korea Mining Development Corp., the country's main arms dealer and exporter of ballistic missile technology, according to the U.S. Treasury.

Checks by Reuters journalists at multiple addresses associated with the company in China and Hong Kong turned up no direct trace of the company or its managers.

Corporate records show the Hong Kong address for a similarly named company, Leader (Hong Kong) International Trading Ltd, as the same as that listed in the U.N. report, although the office moved in 2007.

A Chinese public security branch office is situated at an address listed for that company's director in Dalian, about 300 km (185 miles) from the North Korean border.

"Companies and individuals are using different names. China may know, but wink at it," Kim, the defector, said.

(Additional reporting by Ju-min Park and Narae Kim in SEOUL; James Pomfret in GUANGDONG; Grace Li and Anne Marie Roantree in HONG KONG; Michael Martina in DALIAN; Paul Eckert in WASHINGTON; Michelle Nichols at the UNITED NATIONS and Benjamin Kang Lim in BEIJING; Writing by David Chance; Editing by Raju Gopalakrishnan, Claudia Parsons and Mark Bendeich)
XiaoJoyce-
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
China2908 Posts
February 16 2013 18:15 GMT
#2
Everytime I saw north korea in the title. I will just read.

Something embed into my mind
Pew! Pew! Chitty Chitty Bang Bang!
Seldentar
Profile Joined May 2011
United States888 Posts
February 16 2013 18:22 GMT
#3
On February 17 2013 03:15 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Everytime I saw north korea in the title. I will just read.

Something embed into my mind


Lol same I don't think I've ever ignored a north korea thread.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
February 16 2013 18:23 GMT
#4
Its not realy suprising.
What governments say and what governments do is not the same.
There is this embargo against iran, but iran is still doing business with manny western oil companys.
Think the same goes for north korea, business does not let itself be stopped by trivial things like international law and agreements.
Didnt googles ceo recently not visit north korea on a combined business/private trip?
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
February 16 2013 18:25 GMT
#5
Those sneaky bastards. You mean the US doesnt know shit about this?
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
February 16 2013 18:31 GMT
#6
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.
Twinkle Toes
Profile Joined May 2012
United States3605 Posts
February 16 2013 18:34 GMT
#7
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.

Suitcases come in all sizes, I would imagine.
Bisu - INnoVation - Dark - Rogue - Stats
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 18:38:42
February 16 2013 18:37 GMT
#8
--- Nuked ---
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 18:42:22
February 16 2013 18:38 GMT
#9
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
[Agony]x90
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States853 Posts
February 16 2013 18:42 GMT
#10
They ought to just lift every embargo and just allow free trade to N. Korea. I'm sure they have commodities they can sell and the second foreign goods become legal in N. Korea, they'll want more. It's like a cultural take over!
JF dodger since 2009
Ettick
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States2434 Posts
February 16 2013 18:44 GMT
#11
I'm honestly not surprised that they use illegitimate means to get money, it's not like they're really bound by any international laws or anything...
OniGami
Profile Joined December 2011
Japan140 Posts
February 16 2013 18:47 GMT
#12
Oh wow. Government-initiated/sanctioned financial scam and money shuffling. This is like international diplomacy-level fraud.
物の哀れ
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
February 16 2013 18:47 GMT
#13
Sorry to ask a question which may seem stupid to a lot of people, but why exactly are there so many embargos on North Korea? I mean, they are kind of pushing Korea to do a few illegal activities to build up a better economy.
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
February 16 2013 18:49 GMT
#14
UN sanctions are about as useful as tits on a nun
Mafe
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany5966 Posts
February 16 2013 18:50 GMT
#15
On February 17 2013 02:10 yOngKIN wrote:
...how the North Korean government, despite being under a US and UN embargo and despite not having any external economic relations with other countries....

Does china actually care about an UN embargo? I whought NK and had a lot of economic relations, and there's supposed to be a "special economic area" (ofc I don't know if this is just a shiny name) near the chinese border of NK to improve trading?
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 18:51:24
February 16 2013 18:51 GMT
#16
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
February 16 2013 18:55 GMT
#17
On February 17 2013 03:42 [Agony]x90 wrote:
They ought to just lift every embargo and just allow free trade to N. Korea. I'm sure they have commodities they can sell and the second foreign goods become legal in N. Korea, they'll want more. It's like a cultural take over!


You should take a look at some testimonies by people who escaped north korea from times where there were less embargoes. They had slave labor camps for political prisoners where they produced stuff for export in horrendous conditions (seriously, you can't imagine it if you don't read what those people have to say. Don't even dare to compare it to chinese factories, those are nothing in comparison). The money thus gained was usually invested in luxuries for the leading party elite. The general population never saw anything of that, of course.
FromShouri
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States862 Posts
February 16 2013 18:58 GMT
#18
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.


Well it's a korean to english translation, it could be a type of big duffel bag because those are technically "suitcases" as well. You'll have to REALLY look at his sentence in korean...not english =D.
Limited Edition, lets do some simple addition, $50 for a T-Shirt is just some ignorant bitch shit.
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
February 16 2013 19:02 GMT
#19
On February 17 2013 03:58 FromShouri wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.


Well it's a korean to english translation, it could be a type of big duffel bag because those are technically "suitcases" as well. You'll have to REALLY look at his sentence in korean...not english =D.


Ah okay, if it's a translation that makes more sense. He could get it done with duffel bags I'd imagine. Although how on earth would you hide that going through customs? o_0. LOL.
schimmetje
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1104 Posts
February 16 2013 19:03 GMT
#20
On February 17 2013 03:50 Mafe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 02:10 yOngKIN wrote:
...how the North Korean government, despite being under a US and UN embargo and despite not having any external economic relations with other countries....

Does china actually care about an UN embargo? I whought NK and had a lot of economic relations, and there's supposed to be a "special economic area" (ofc I don't know if this is just a shiny name) near the chinese border of NK to improve trading?


The economic relations are somewhat one way though, NK's economy is tiny. And China has put down it's own sanctions at times, though it's hard to imagine NK really defying it's will on anything.

It's weird to me how, isolated as the country is, there's apparently another split in there with a ruling class savvy enough to apply such.. modern schemes. For those of you who hadn't read it yet, Sophie Schmidt's account of her trip touched on this as well, it's really quite fascinating.

But at the same time eh yeah, bad North Korea. Bad!
Change to MY nostalgia? UNACCEPTABLE! Monkey paaaw!
Telcontar
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom16710 Posts
February 16 2013 19:05 GMT
#21
Plus, Kim Dae-Jung, the South Korean president from 98~03, gave him 8,000,000,000,000 Won ($7.4 billion with today's exchange used) in cash when he arranged that peace meeting. The fucker really wanted a nobel prize. That's where the nuke came from.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
AcidMinded
Profile Joined July 2012
United States17 Posts
February 16 2013 19:07 GMT
#22
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.
You're talking about a briefcase. The article says suitcase. A suitcase is much larger than a briefcase, which is the object used by professionals to carry papers, a laptop, pens, whatever.

A suitcase is used by people who are travelling, bringing large amounts of clothing, souvenirs, etc., when they're on their journey. Suitcases can fit much more than a simple briefcase. The average briefcase could probably only fit a few hundred thousand dollars inside. Since suitcases come in such wide varieties of shapes and sizes, I could easily see them fitting $20 million in 2 of them. Just think about the hard plastic cases you sometimes see with rollers. Those things could easily fit that amount of money inside.

Why are we arguing the physics of fitting money in suitcases when we should be discussing the issue of North Korea essentially becoming the new Mafia state that Italy once was? Who the hell cares about the dimensions of the case they used when we're talking about a country that is smuggling drugs to fund its dictatorship and nuclear warfare agenda? Really, how much do you care about some stupid paper when compared to the threat of a nuclear warhead?
You can't stop the dance.
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
February 16 2013 19:07 GMT
#23
On February 17 2013 03:42 [Agony]x90 wrote:
They ought to just lift every embargo and just allow free trade to N. Korea. I'm sure they have commodities they can sell and the second foreign goods become legal in N. Korea, they'll want more. It's like a cultural take over!


A cultural takeover that won't work at all.
North Korea is like the real life version of Oceania. You can actually get killed for thoughtcrime over there. Do you honestly think that they'll let themselves lose their stranglehold over the people to some rice and bread?
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
Khul Sadukar
Profile Joined August 2009
Australia1735 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 19:14:12
February 16 2013 19:08 GMT
#24
The world always needs an enemy.

Be interesting if someone made a documentary about this. Doubt they'd ever get footage or ppl on camera though.

Also I used to work in a bank and count notes. You'd be surprised how much cash you can cram in a suitcase, especially if their all $100 bills.

Not that I ever did that... nope.
I don't want to be part everything. I want to be something. - Weapon X
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 19:11:55
February 16 2013 19:11 GMT
#25
On February 17 2013 04:07 AcidMinded wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.
You're talking about a briefcase. The article says suitcase. A suitcase is much larger than a briefcase, which is the object used by professionals to carry papers, a laptop, pens, whatever.

A suitcase is used by people who are travelling, bringing large amounts of clothing, souvenirs, etc., when they're on their journey. Suitcases can fit much more than a simple briefcase. The average briefcase could probably only fit a few hundred thousand dollars inside. Since suitcases come in such wide varieties of shapes and sizes, I could easily see them fitting $20 million in 2 of them. Just think about the hard plastic cases you sometimes see with rollers. Those things could easily fit that amount of money inside.

Why are we arguing the physics of fitting money in suitcases when we should be discussing the issue of North Korea essentially becoming the new Mafia state that Italy once was? Who the hell cares about the dimensions of the case they used when we're talking about a country that is smuggling drugs to fund its dictatorship and nuclear warfare agenda? Really, how much do you care about some stupid paper when compared to the threat of a nuclear warhead?


Hmm, difference of opinion in word usage between us. I consider the larger ones luggage cases and briefcases/suitcases to be about the same.

And stop being a drama queen. You act like a rogue state engaging in illicit activities is some kind of world-shattering event. Long story short, it's not. Guess how America funded its revolution? Guess how they funded lots of wars? Guess how many of its leading families gained their fortunes? Oh, yeah. That's right. Smuggling and war profiteering.


On the other hand, when a random N. Korean agent can break the laws of physics and compress matter into an impossibly small space, yes I consider that a far more interesting possibility than another shitty dictatorship trying to get a nuke.
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
February 16 2013 19:18 GMT
#26
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.

twenty million dollars in stacked hundreds is much smaller then you would expect. could easily fit into a suitcase.
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
February 16 2013 19:22 GMT
#27
--- Nuked ---
Sea_Food
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Finland1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 19:30:25
February 16 2013 19:27 GMT
#28
On February 17 2013 04:11 SamsungStar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 04:07 AcidMinded wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.
You're talking about a briefcase. The article says suitcase. A suitcase is much larger than a briefcase, which is the object used by professionals to carry papers, a laptop, pens, whatever.

A suitcase is used by people who are travelling, bringing large amounts of clothing, souvenirs, etc., when they're on their journey. Suitcases can fit much more than a simple briefcase. The average briefcase could probably only fit a few hundred thousand dollars inside. Since suitcases come in such wide varieties of shapes and sizes, I could easily see them fitting $20 million in 2 of them. Just think about the hard plastic cases you sometimes see with rollers. Those things could easily fit that amount of money inside.

Why are we arguing the physics of fitting money in suitcases when we should be discussing the issue of North Korea essentially becoming the new Mafia state that Italy once was? Who the hell cares about the dimensions of the case they used when we're talking about a country that is smuggling drugs to fund its dictatorship and nuclear warfare agenda? Really, how much do you care about some stupid paper when compared to the threat of a nuclear warhead?


Hmm, difference of opinion in word usage between us. I consider the larger ones luggage cases and briefcases/suitcases to be about the same.

And stop being a drama queen. You act like a rogue state engaging in illicit activities is some kind of world-shattering event. Long story short, it's not. Guess how America funded its revolution? Guess how they funded lots of wars? Guess how many of its leading families gained their fortunes? Oh, yeah. That's right. Smuggling and war profiteering.


On the other hand, when a random N. Korean agent can break the laws of physics and compress matter into an impossibly small space, yes I consider that a far more interesting possibility than another shitty dictatorship trying to get a nuke.

I do not understand why do people like you who do not understand the subject we are talking about here (math) are so eager to argue about it.

The size of a 100$ is about 156,0mm*66.3mm*0.11mm= about 1137.7mm^3
This means that 20million worth of them which is 200 000 bills is 1137.7mm^3*200 000= 227 541 600mm^3 = 0,227 541 600m^3
That is little over 8cubic feet which does easily fit in 2 large suitcases
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 19:32:59
February 16 2013 19:31 GMT
#29
On February 17 2013 04:22 krndandaman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 04:11 SamsungStar wrote:
On February 17 2013 04:07 AcidMinded wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.
You're talking about a briefcase. The article says suitcase. A suitcase is much larger than a briefcase, which is the object used by professionals to carry papers, a laptop, pens, whatever.

A suitcase is used by people who are travelling, bringing large amounts of clothing, souvenirs, etc., when they're on their journey. Suitcases can fit much more than a simple briefcase. The average briefcase could probably only fit a few hundred thousand dollars inside. Since suitcases come in such wide varieties of shapes and sizes, I could easily see them fitting $20 million in 2 of them. Just think about the hard plastic cases you sometimes see with rollers. Those things could easily fit that amount of money inside.

Why are we arguing the physics of fitting money in suitcases when we should be discussing the issue of North Korea essentially becoming the new Mafia state that Italy once was? Who the hell cares about the dimensions of the case they used when we're talking about a country that is smuggling drugs to fund its dictatorship and nuclear warfare agenda? Really, how much do you care about some stupid paper when compared to the threat of a nuclear warhead?


Hmm, difference of opinion in word usage between us. I consider the larger ones luggage cases and briefcases/suitcases to be about the same.

And stop being a drama queen. You act like a rogue state engaging in illicit activities is some kind of world-shattering event. Long story short, it's not. Guess how America funded its revolution? Guess how they funded lots of wars? Guess how many of its leading families gained their fortunes? Oh, yeah. That's right. Smuggling and war profiteering.


On the other hand, when a random N. Korean agent can break the laws of physics and compress matter into an impossibly small space, yes I consider that a far more interesting possibility than another shitty dictatorship trying to get a nuke.


err.. I can understand you being interested about the practicality of putting the money into a suitcase (I wasn't sure either) but the guy is right man.
it's not a difference of opinion in word usage, he gave you the dictionary definition of briefcase.

also, a rogue state engaging in illicit activities to avoid UN sanctions is kind of important news. it complicates the situation for the U.S. and other countries because if UN sanctions don't work at all, what will stop NK from becoming a bonafide nuclear weapon state? that is big news. The American Revolution and a lot of its wars were big news/moments in history.


Except every country circumvents UN sanctions/rules/regulations in their own way. Most of them are just better at hiding it. This is just another propagandist piece trying to smear North Korea's name. To what end? As if everyone didn't already know PROK was the black sheep of Asia. It's nonsense to keep going in circles on this issue. As long as China props up the regime and no country is willing to exercise military options, nothing is going to change in N. Korea. A bunch of people discussing it on a gaming forum will affect absolutely zero change in the situation nor in anyone's minds.

Maybe the avg TLer is vastly less informed on the E. Asia region, but to me this is very, very old news and not worthy of attention.

On the suitcase issue, I am happy to say he is right and I misunderstood. I'm just more used to calling suitcases luggage cases.
BuddhaMonk
Profile Joined August 2010
781 Posts
February 16 2013 19:44 GMT
#30
On February 17 2013 03:47 Dark_Chill wrote:
Sorry to ask a question which may seem stupid to a lot of people, but why exactly are there so many embargos on North Korea? I mean, they are kind of pushing Korea to do a few illegal activities to build up a better economy.


This is a good summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Korea
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
February 16 2013 19:53 GMT
#31
--- Nuked ---
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
February 16 2013 19:55 GMT
#32
On February 17 2013 04:02 SamsungStar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:58 FromShouri wrote:
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.


Well it's a korean to english translation, it could be a type of big duffel bag because those are technically "suitcases" as well. You'll have to REALLY look at his sentence in korean...not english =D.


Ah okay, if it's a translation that makes more sense. He could get it done with duffel bags I'd imagine. Although how on earth would you hide that going through customs? o_0. LOL.


diplomats dont go through customs
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
February 16 2013 20:06 GMT
#33
^ Now that's something interesting I didn't know. Does N. Korea have normalized relations with Singapore though? I wasn't aware they were exchanging diplomats. Then again, it's Singapore, so I'm not surprised.

To dandaman: I guess to me it's not relevant because it's been going on for so long. Honestly, this counterfeiting, arms selling, laundering money, etc is nothing new. The scale N. Korea's been doing it on is nothing new. It's not like they recently ramped up their illegal activities to finance their nuclear program. They've been like this for decades now.

Changes in regime, shifts in policy, new natural resource deposits, breakthroughs in military programs, etc those would be newsworthy to me. But a random report on well-known activities... to me that's just a redundant thread.
FromShouri
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States862 Posts
February 16 2013 20:22 GMT
#34
On February 17 2013 04:02 SamsungStar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:58 FromShouri wrote:
On February 17 2013 03:51 SamsungStar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 17 2013 03:38 emythrel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 03:31 SamsungStar wrote:
How exactly did Kim Kwan-jin fit TWENTY million dollars into two suitcases? I think breaking the laws of physics is a much more interesting tidbit of news than anything about N. Korea.


20 million dollars isn't actually much in terms of size and weight. Whenever they show a million dollars in a briefcase in a film, it never looks like it would in reality.

[image loading]

you are looking at about $50,000 right there. 2 full sized suitcases could easily hold 20million

also it could be in bonds rather than in bank notes, or in another currency where they have large denominations and a good exchange rate with US dollar.


Nah, I've checked before. You can only fit about $1.5 - $2 million in a normal suitcase. There is a huge diff between 2 million and $50K. Just look at the dimensions of a dollar and briefcase and do the math.

And considering the article went on to specifically say N. Korea's making money by doing hard currency transactions, I find it unlikely he was stuffing bonds or bank notes into his suitcase. Just look at the construction of the sentence. I highly doubt he would need to "stuff" bank notes or bonds seeing as it'd be one or two slips of paper. It's strongly implied that he stuffed hard currency in benjamins. And that means I call bs on this whole story.


Well it's a korean to english translation, it could be a type of big duffel bag because those are technically "suitcases" as well. You'll have to REALLY look at his sentence in korean...not english =D.


Ah okay, if it's a translation that makes more sense. He could get it done with duffel bags I'd imagine. Although how on earth would you hide that going through customs? o_0. LOL.


Same way other people do, extortion or slip em some money.
Limited Edition, lets do some simple addition, $50 for a T-Shirt is just some ignorant bitch shit.
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-16 20:34:27
February 16 2013 20:32 GMT
#35
Not to mention we've been talking about north korea's aggressive actions in many many threads already over the past few weeks/months. So what if one person is surprised at how much money can be fit into a suitcase/briefcase? It it was breaking news that North Korea was building a nuclear weapon, then that would logically be the thing everyone is focused on. But its not, its been going on for a long time. The only newsworthy topic here is the fact that North Korea is scamming people and moving money from illicit drugs...since this is not earth-shattering news, but merely interesting news, then its understandable that people may be interested in many things related to the story.

Anyway I think it is an interesting exercise to think about how much money could be stuffed into a briefcase (adding to the confusion ). So I like sea_food's post, basically. Sums it all up assuming the math is right.
Raid
Profile Joined September 2010
United States398 Posts
February 16 2013 23:31 GMT
#36
I like how people are flipping out of a petty $20 million. I know it is a lot of money to one person. But it really isn't all that much money if you consider what you can really do with it as a nation lol...
Chilling5pr33
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Germany518 Posts
February 16 2013 23:52 GMT
#37
On February 17 2013 08:31 Raid wrote:
I like how people are flipping out of a petty $20 million. I know it is a lot of money to one person. But it really isn't all that much money if you consider what you can really do with it as a nation lol...


I once read that around 70% of the agriculture areas are used to grow opium i think 90%+ of the military funding comes from there.

They sell it to china mainly but i hope not in knowlege of theire legal system.

(Thats why people are starving in the streets btw)
F-
sOda~
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom441 Posts
February 16 2013 23:58 GMT
#38
On February 17 2013 08:52 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 08:31 Raid wrote:
I like how people are flipping out of a petty $20 million. I know it is a lot of money to one person. But it really isn't all that much money if you consider what you can really do with it as a nation lol...


I once read that around 70% of the agriculture areas are used to grow opium i think 90%+ of the military funding comes from there.

They sell it to china mainly but i hope not in knowlege of theire legal system.

(Thats why people are starving in the streets btw)


That's kinda depressing.
IM THE SHIT BITCH
YoucriedWolf
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden1456 Posts
February 17 2013 00:26 GMT
#39
Interesting.

So when people say 90% of the worlds heroin is coming from afghanistan they really have no numbers on NK export?
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
February 17 2013 00:55 GMT
#40
People would be also surprised to hear how many triads and yakuza organizations operate in North Korea.
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
February 17 2013 01:13 GMT
#41
On February 17 2013 09:26 YoucriedWolf wrote:
Interesting.

So when people say 90% of the worlds heroin is coming from afghanistan they really have no numbers on NK export?


The 90% thing is a myth. The intelligence agencies are really just fucking terrible at tracking China White. Mostly because Chinese labs modify their products to make it look like Afghan White so as to stay out of the limelight. Less exposure = less policing. SE Asian golden triangle still pushes out plenty of product. I'd wager NK's opium fields are trafficked through SE Asia and out into the international market, NOT through China which is for the most part a wasteland for high-volume trafficking.

I know this coz I read da books...
Aveng3r
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2411 Posts
February 17 2013 01:20 GMT
#42
Im just here to agree with the croud that commented about never ignoring a title with north korea in it lol
but seriously. what. are. we. doing. with. them.
I carve marble busts of assassinated world leaders - PM for a quote
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
21980 Posts
February 17 2013 01:26 GMT
#43
To be honest that doesn't make sense, if they don't have any relations with outside economies they can do with their currency what they want.

Need money for workers?Print it. Need money for military? Print it. They don't sell their bonds, they don't owe debt to anyone, so I don't even see how financing should be a problem for NK in the first place.
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
February 17 2013 01:30 GMT
#44
On February 17 2013 10:26 Vivax wrote:
To be honest that doesn't make sense, if they don't have any relations with outside economies they can do with their currency what they want.

Need money for workers?Print it. Need money for military? Print it. They don't sell their bonds, they don't owe debt to anyone, so I don't even see how financing should be a problem for NK in the first place.

You really don't understand economics if you think printing more money will solve the problem.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42718 Posts
February 17 2013 01:32 GMT
#45
On February 17 2013 10:26 Vivax wrote:
To be honest that doesn't make sense, if they don't have any relations with outside economies they can do with their currency what they want.

Need money for workers?Print it. Need money for military? Print it. They don't sell their bonds, they don't owe debt to anyone, so I don't even see how financing should be a problem for NK in the first place.

Ah, the Zimbabwe economic model.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
ppshchik
Profile Joined September 2010
United States862 Posts
February 17 2013 01:37 GMT
#46
On February 17 2013 03:49 zev318 wrote:
UN sanctions are about as useful as tits on a nun


Lol, quoted for truth.
Legends never die... they end up working in McDonalds.
DauBo
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
United States20 Posts
February 17 2013 01:49 GMT
#47
I thought China was a huge financial backer as well?
FuRong
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand3089 Posts
February 17 2013 01:53 GMT
#48
China has its own sanctions, but they still continue to supply oil and food to North Korea.

In 2006 the US froze some bank accounts in Macau that were suspected of being related to Kim Jung Il, and NK seemed pretty sensitive about it. As far as I know, NK leaders still have a ton of other secret bank accounts spread across China and probably other countries too.
Don't hate the player, hate the game
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
February 17 2013 02:01 GMT
#49
On February 17 2013 10:32 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2013 10:26 Vivax wrote:
To be honest that doesn't make sense, if they don't have any relations with outside economies they can do with their currency what they want.

Need money for workers?Print it. Need money for military? Print it. They don't sell their bonds, they don't owe debt to anyone, so I don't even see how financing should be a problem for NK in the first place.

Ah, the Zimbabwe economic model.

The economic model that gives you more money than the endgame of a JRPG :D
Aveng3r
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2411 Posts
February 17 2013 02:07 GMT
#50
On February 17 2013 10:26 Vivax wrote:
To be honest that doesn't make sense, if they don't have any relations with outside economies they can do with their currency what they want.

Need money for workers?Print it. Need money for military? Print it. They don't sell their bonds, they don't owe debt to anyone, so I don't even see how financing should be a problem for NK in the first place.

printing money nonstop leads to runaway inflation which leads to worthless currency..
I carve marble busts of assassinated world leaders - PM for a quote
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-17 02:24:53
February 17 2013 02:13 GMT
#51
On February 17 2013 03:49 zev318 wrote:
UN sanctions are about as useful as tits on a nun

Used to be the exact opposite in the 90s when the US ran the world. Russia's restoration and China's rise has made the UN "useless" again. Still, imho, it's better for the UN to be "useless" than to be what one country uses to justify and enforce its actions.
Chilling5pr33
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Germany518 Posts
February 17 2013 02:14 GMT
#52
All the people in charge know they cant buy shit with the local currency they all seek for $$$.
Its the third biggest Army in the world currently, you cant just print that much money.
F-
SamsungStar
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States912 Posts
February 17 2013 02:25 GMT
#53
On February 17 2013 11:14 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
All the people in charge know they cant buy shit with the local currency they all seek for $$$.
Its the third biggest Army in the world currently, you cant just print that much money.


Nor can you buy rare earths, electronic components, oil, plutonium, etc with NK won. The guy who first proposed this ridiculous idea doesn't understand the notion of interdependent economies lol
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