|
On February 21 2013 08:39 Kukaracha wrote:
I didn't know they were pushing for free education. I'm quite surprised, as I just came back from a semester in Saguenay (north of Quebec), and while there was a strong movement against the rise of tuition fees, only a few spoke of more drastic measures. It does seem a bit idealistic - but hey, that what the far-right and the far-left do : ask for more, always more.
I do, however, agree with the opposition to the previously planned rise of costs, not in the sense that Quebec should be treated better but in the sense that Canada as a whole should adopt a cost-control policy regarding post-secondary education. It's too late in the US, but I believe that Canada can avoid the storm.
"The storm being student debt, the possible future generator of the next global economical crisis!"
The situation becomes that much more ridiculous when you see that american universities are investing less and less on education, and more and more on comfort and infrastructures.
Do you live in Canada or France? Just curious.
The PQ is toxic for Quebec and for Canada as a whole imo. If you really need to stoop to legislating what people can put on a menu in their restaurant your culture is already long gone and your just creating animosity with blatantly discriminatory laws.
If BC tried to pull that with English forcing Asian's to change their signs/menus people would shit themselves.
|
dear dawski.
the fact that you and me disagree is most likely due to to culture itself. as a matter of fact, there is no social relation that isn't culturally determined (this is proven by science). the main reason you have an opinion is because of your culture. now tell me culture isn't important. culture influences every actions/decision you make. there is a sociolingusitical notion named linguistical market that basically comes down to dominant language vs alternatives ones. the dominant one right now is english (due to european historical emperialism and present status of english as THE market language). knowing this you should then agree that in an mostly english northamerica you guys have alot of DIRECT influence on our french but also on "native" languages. Every existing research on the subject leads to a regression of the alternatives markets such a french or inuktituk for example. meaning these language are more and more english and less and less authentical (we can debate on language revitalisation later). we can argue on the good it makes but if we look at the "indians" life conditions that are directly correlated to acculturation we find -> highest non-employment, suicide, alchoolism, game dependance in the whole canada. now it is a natural process that happens with the constant dominant market vs alternative. as a matter of fact since bill101 passed, regression of french slowly went down to a point where right now it is constant. still regressing but at a slow rate. now, what if YOUR culture was the one slowly getting sucked in the wheel? the thing is not that i am anglophobe not at all i just want to keep my french identity like alot of quebecois. now the best way to do it is to go with legislation that way we ensure the persistance our cultural differences. And you can't deny we have differences of thinking which i consider the first good reason to get the fuck out of that canada we don't fit in (in term of ideology).
PQ's creation was to give quebec its independance, now its purpose is debatable (although independance will ALWAYS have its pertinence) . the feasability of independance is also debatable although it is a complete legitimate choice of ours not yours.
now the reason i want this thread Locked is because not only it is not decently presented (mostly ranting against french canadians) also because alot of people like you who don't have the whole information on the matter are only creating frustration in people like me who are directly conserned. while you can have an opinion, all opinions are not valid. yours is definately not valid. your last post jsut made it clear on how much you do not understand politics in quebec (on the student strike).
free quebec, free scotlant, free catalogne!
|
On February 21 2013 08:59 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 08:39 Kukaracha wrote:
I didn't know they were pushing for free education. I'm quite surprised, as I just came back from a semester in Saguenay (north of Quebec), and while there was a strong movement against the rise of tuition fees, only a few spoke of more drastic measures. It does seem a bit idealistic - but hey, that what the far-right and the far-left do : ask for more, always more.
I do, however, agree with the opposition to the previously planned rise of costs, not in the sense that Quebec should be treated better but in the sense that Canada as a whole should adopt a cost-control policy regarding post-secondary education. It's too late in the US, but I believe that Canada can avoid the storm.
"The storm being student debt, the possible future generator of the next global economical crisis!"
The situation becomes that much more ridiculous when you see that american universities are investing less and less on education, and more and more on comfort and infrastructures. Do you live in Canada or France? Just curious. The PQ is toxic for Quebec and for Canada as a whole imo. If you really need to stoop to legislating what people can put on a menu in their restaurant your culture is already long gone and your just creating animosity with blatantly discriminatory laws. If BC tried to pull that with English forcing Asian's to change their signs/menus people would shit themselves.
lol have you ever been to quebec? in our chinatown, menus are bilingual sometime trilinguals. they have their chinese description with french traduction below (aint that normal ? i mean we need to knwo what we buy?)
PQ isnt toxic for quebec (debatable but on a left/right thing but not in terms of nationalism or separatism). seems like every canadian has an inherent hate toward the idea that a distinct nation should have their own country, goals, orientations? why do you care so much?
|
On February 21 2013 09:07 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 08:59 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2013 08:39 Kukaracha wrote:
I didn't know they were pushing for free education. I'm quite surprised, as I just came back from a semester in Saguenay (north of Quebec), and while there was a strong movement against the rise of tuition fees, only a few spoke of more drastic measures. It does seem a bit idealistic - but hey, that what the far-right and the far-left do : ask for more, always more.
I do, however, agree with the opposition to the previously planned rise of costs, not in the sense that Quebec should be treated better but in the sense that Canada as a whole should adopt a cost-control policy regarding post-secondary education. It's too late in the US, but I believe that Canada can avoid the storm.
"The storm being student debt, the possible future generator of the next global economical crisis!"
The situation becomes that much more ridiculous when you see that american universities are investing less and less on education, and more and more on comfort and infrastructures. Do you live in Canada or France? Just curious. The PQ is toxic for Quebec and for Canada as a whole imo. If you really need to stoop to legislating what people can put on a menu in their restaurant your culture is already long gone and your just creating animosity with blatantly discriminatory laws. If BC tried to pull that with English forcing Asian's to change their signs/menus people would shit themselves. lol have you ever been to quebec? in our chinatown, menus are bilingual sometime trilinguals. they have their chinese description with french traduction below (aint that normal ? i mean we need to knwo what we buy?) PQ isnt toxic for quebec (debatable but on a left/right thing but not in terms of nationalism or separatism). seems like every canadian has an inherent hate toward the idea that a distinct nation should have their own country, goals, orientations? why do you care so much?
Regardless of how many languages are on a menu your still forcing people to put French on there. To me that's a pretty clear sign that a significant part of the population doesn't want French on signs or else it wouldn't need to be legislated. In the "French cultural stronghold" of Canada you need to make it law to have French on signs that's not a healthy sign for a culture.
A restaurant got fined $4500 for having pasta on a menu lol. You don't see why that is bad for business? Or why that would piss off English speaking business owners in Quebec? Correct me if I'm wrong but Quebec's economy has gone down since the glory days when it was the Banking/Manufacturing centre of Canada which was owned by Anglophones left.
I care because the Natives in Northern Quebec who have stated over and over and over again over the years they want to stay in Canada might get fucked over. Same with the English speaking Canadians who live in Quebec. I personally think that the whole animosity between English speaking Canada and Quebec is retarded. We have been entwined for over a century. I can't see things really being that bad being a part of Canada. It's not like we force children to not speak French or ban French Signs. We still have French on every label across Canada. We still give you $8 Billion a year in Equalization payments even if it is not the highest per capita it is still a shit load of money.
Separating won't help keep your language. You still have two massive English speaking countries on both of your borders any ways.
|
On February 21 2013 09:01 crazyweasel wrote:
dear dawski.
the fact that you and me disagree is most likely due to to culture itself. as a matter of fact, there is no social relation that isn't culturally determined (this is proven by science). the main reason you have an opinion is because of your culture. now tell me culture isn't important. culture influences every actions/decision you make. there is a sociolingusitical notion named linguistical market that basically comes down to dominant language vs alternatives ones. the dominant one right now is english (due to european historical emperialism and present status of english as THE market language). knowing this you should then agree that in an mostly english northamerica you guys have alot of DIRECT influence on our french but also on "native" languages. Every existing research on the subject leads to a regression of the alternatives markets such a french or inuktituk for example. meaning these language are more and more english and less and less authentical (we can debate on language revitalisation later). we can argue on the good it makes but if we look at the "indians" life conditions that are directly correlated to acculturation we find -> highest non-employment, suicide, alchoolism, game dependance in the whole canada. now it is a natural process that happens with the constant dominant market vs alternative. as a matter of fact since bill101 passed, regression of french slowly went down to a point where right now it is constant. still regressing but at a slow rate. now, what if YOUR culture was the one slowly getting sucked in the wheel? the thing is not that i am anglophobe not at all i just want to keep my french identity like alot of quebecois. now the best way to do it is to go with legislation that way we ensure the persistance our cultural differences. And you can't deny we have differences of thinking which i consider the first good reason to get the fuck out of that canada we don't fit in (in term of ideology).
PQ's creation was to give quebec its independance, now its purpose is debatable (although independance will ALWAYS have its pertinence) . the feasability of independance is also debatable although it is a complete legitimate choice of ours not yours.
now the reason i want this thread Locked is because not only it is not decently presented (mostly ranting against french canadians) also because alot of people like you who don't have the whole information on the matter are only creating frustration in people like me who are directly conserned. while you can have an opinion, all opinions are not valid. yours is definately not valid. your last post jsut made it clear on how much you do not understand politics in quebec (on the student strike).
free quebec, free scotlant, free catalogne!
I've already addressed the points about culture in one of my last posts (the same student strike post).
I straight up disagree that the acculturation of the natives are what led to the factors of unemployment, suicide, alcoholism, and game dependence. Native reserves are not forced upon the people. The natives that live that are allowed to leave and join the rest of Canada with all the positives and negativities it has.
But there in lies what your problem with the situation is. You feel that the natives shouldn't have to join the rest of canada and should be able to continue in their preserving of their culture even though it is unsustainable.
My opinion is the fact that the idea of trying to preserve a cultural identity through legislation has no value in a modern multicultural society. I understand that I may feel a little upset if my culture was the one being taken away. But if it makes sense you do what you have to do.
You're correct is saying that if you want to separate then when the 51% vote comes in you are allowed to do so and i'm not saying you shouldn't be. I'm actually surprisingly not anti separatist BUT while the separatists are apart of canada they will respect the country they live in and be thankful for all we have given you trying to promote the french language around the whole country.
My opinion IS valid and is shared by many people in this country of Canada. Like you have said your worldview is also based on your culture so your opinion is no more valid than mine is. Even hinting at the fact that it is, is what disgusts me yet again. I am directly involved with the politics in Quebec because my tax money goes there, that is the truth.
I want you to explain to me right now how my stance on the student strike in Quebec equates to me "not understanding Quebecs problems"
It seems I was mistaken unless someone else could find it for me. I said there was a native band that was doing well in the economy in the energy sector and spoke up against theresa spence but can't seem to find it. I removed it from my post
|
@Dawski
I don't believe that the economy regulates itself, at least not on a human level, because there's no "regulated place" to reach. Wealth distribution has changed greatly through history, and it will continue to change regardless of regulations because human will is always determinant!
I see two problem with the idea of an absolutely free market : 1) it's an ideal unsupported by any sort of previous evidence (unless you look at devastated African countries, but I think they're bad examples), 2) it does not take in account the current situation (if we let the dogs loose right now, the biggest players will simply remain the biggest players... in a free market, Microsoft would've achieved its monopoly, since nothing would've forced them to save Apple!). There are other indirect problems : if the state loses so much power, how can it fight companies whose income surpasses the GDP of a number of third-world countries? How do we deal with mercenary companies like Blackwater? I think that legislation is important to mantain a balance that is essentially unnatural, since in a natural context the weak simply vanish and luck plays the largest role.
@tokicheese
I'll let you guess : I come from one of the most pessimistic countries in the world, and everyone thinks we're lazy cowards although we're one of the most productive nations on earth and have the best military record of the western sphere. :p
|
On February 21 2013 09:33 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:01 crazyweasel wrote:
dear dawski.
the fact that you and me disagree is most likely due to to culture itself. as a matter of fact, there is no social relation that isn't culturally determined (this is proven by science). the main reason you have an opinion is because of your culture. now tell me culture isn't important. culture influences every actions/decision you make. there is a sociolingusitical notion named linguistical market that basically comes down to dominant language vs alternatives ones. the dominant one right now is english (due to european historical emperialism and present status of english as THE market language). knowing this you should then agree that in an mostly english northamerica you guys have alot of DIRECT influence on our french but also on "native" languages. Every existing research on the subject leads to a regression of the alternatives markets such a french or inuktituk for example. meaning these language are more and more english and less and less authentical (we can debate on language revitalisation later). we can argue on the good it makes but if we look at the "indians" life conditions that are directly correlated to acculturation we find -> highest non-employment, suicide, alchoolism, game dependance in the whole canada. now it is a natural process that happens with the constant dominant market vs alternative. as a matter of fact since bill101 passed, regression of french slowly went down to a point where right now it is constant. still regressing but at a slow rate. now, what if YOUR culture was the one slowly getting sucked in the wheel? the thing is not that i am anglophobe not at all i just want to keep my french identity like alot of quebecois. now the best way to do it is to go with legislation that way we ensure the persistance our cultural differences. And you can't deny we have differences of thinking which i consider the first good reason to get the fuck out of that canada we don't fit in (in term of ideology).
PQ's creation was to give quebec its independance, now its purpose is debatable (although independance will ALWAYS have its pertinence) . the feasability of independance is also debatable although it is a complete legitimate choice of ours not yours.
now the reason i want this thread Locked is because not only it is not decently presented (mostly ranting against french canadians) also because alot of people like you who don't have the whole information on the matter are only creating frustration in people like me who are directly conserned. while you can have an opinion, all opinions are not valid. yours is definately not valid. your last post jsut made it clear on how much you do not understand politics in quebec (on the student strike).
free quebec, free scotlant, free catalogne! I've already addressed the points about culture in one of my last posts (the same student strike post). I straight up disagree that the acculturation of the natives are what led to the factors of unemployment, suicide, alcoholism, and game dependence. Native reserves are not forced upon the people. The natives that live that are allowed to leave and join the rest of Canada with all the positives and negativities it has. But there in lies what your problem with the situation is. You feel that the natives shouldn't have to join the rest of canada and should be able to continue in their preserving of their culture even though it is unsustainable. My opinion is the fact that the idea of trying to preserve a cultural identity through legislation has no value in a modern multicultural society. I understand that I may feel a little upset if my culture was the one being taken away. But if it makes sense you do what you have to do. Just like the native band in the Okanagan, BC who have embraced the culture around them and started a private business in the energy sector and arn't dealing with any of those problems you discussed. http://www.straight.com/news/okanagan-nation-alliance-open-letter-stephen-harper-regarding-idle-no-more-movementYou're correct is saying that if you want to separate then when the 51% vote comes in you are allowed to do so and i'm not saying you shouldn't be. I'm actually surprisingly not anti separatist BUT while the separatists are apart of canada they will respect the country they live in and be thankful for all we have given you trying to promote the french language around the whole country. My opinion IS valid and is shared by many people in this country of Canada. Like you have said your worldview is also based on your culture so your opinion is no more valid than mine is. Even hinting at the fact that it is, is what disgusts me yet again. I am directly involved with the politics in Quebec because my tax money goes there, that is the truth. I want you to explain to me right now how my stance on the student strike in Quebec equates to me "not understanding Quebecs problems"
Regarding the reserves you really don't understand the problem. It's not about culture it's about keeping them out of places like Hasting Street in Vancouver. + Show Spoiler +There is no parental structure after the Residential schools/borderline genocide before that. People who left the residential schools were often abused sexually and physically and had no real education and were banned from speaking their original language. When people would return home after the residential school they wouldn't be able to speak to their parents because they were forced forget the language. It's understandable when you can't find decent work and can't relate to your family you might turn to alcoholism which was already wide spread since the firewater days. Kids with alcoholic parents who don't know how to be parents causes a lot of kids to not give a fuck at school and drop out. I have a native friend who had an alcoholic uncle living on a reserve who killed himself while his kids were still in elementary school. He called the oldest home to clean up a mess and when the oldest walked in the door he found his dad in the living room with a gun still in his mouth. That guys kids eventually dropped out of high school and now they are all alcoholics. How can kids who don't even graduate highschool and barely got out of elementary school compete with the average Canadian when looking for a job? There are some serious problems in Native Society and I personally don't have a clue how to fix it.
Sorta off topic but saying they can just leave the reserve isn't true.
|
On February 21 2013 09:38 Kukaracha wrote:
@Dawski
I don't believe that the economy regulates itself, at least not on a human level, because there's no "regulated place" to reach. Wealth distribution has changed greatly through history, and it will continue to change regardless of regulations because human will is always determinant!
I see two problem with the idea of an absolutely free market : 1) it's an ideal unsupported by any sort of previous evidence (unless you look at devastated African countries, but I think they're bad examples), 2) it does not take in account the current situation (if we let the dogs loose right now, the biggest players will simply remain the biggest players... in a free market, Microsoft would've achieved its monopoly, since nothing would've forced them to save Apple!). There are other indirect problems : if the state loses so much power, how can it fight companies whose income surpasses the GDP of a number of third-world countries? How do we deal with mercenary companies like Blackwater? I think that legislation is important to mantain a balance that is essentially unnatural, since in a natural context the weak simply vanish and luck plays the largest role.
@tokicheese
I'll let you guess : I come from one of the most pessimistic countries in the world, and everyone thinks we're lazy cowards although we're one of the most productive nations on earth and have the best military record of the western sphere. :p
Haha fair enough. I find it strange people know about Napoleon but still rag on France. Atleast you don't live in igloos  .
|
On February 21 2013 09:44 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:33 Dawski wrote:On February 21 2013 09:01 crazyweasel wrote:
dear dawski.
the fact that you and me disagree is most likely due to to culture itself. as a matter of fact, there is no social relation that isn't culturally determined (this is proven by science). the main reason you have an opinion is because of your culture. now tell me culture isn't important. culture influences every actions/decision you make. there is a sociolingusitical notion named linguistical market that basically comes down to dominant language vs alternatives ones. the dominant one right now is english (due to european historical emperialism and present status of english as THE market language). knowing this you should then agree that in an mostly english northamerica you guys have alot of DIRECT influence on our french but also on "native" languages. Every existing research on the subject leads to a regression of the alternatives markets such a french or inuktituk for example. meaning these language are more and more english and less and less authentical (we can debate on language revitalisation later). we can argue on the good it makes but if we look at the "indians" life conditions that are directly correlated to acculturation we find -> highest non-employment, suicide, alchoolism, game dependance in the whole canada. now it is a natural process that happens with the constant dominant market vs alternative. as a matter of fact since bill101 passed, regression of french slowly went down to a point where right now it is constant. still regressing but at a slow rate. now, what if YOUR culture was the one slowly getting sucked in the wheel? the thing is not that i am anglophobe not at all i just want to keep my french identity like alot of quebecois. now the best way to do it is to go with legislation that way we ensure the persistance our cultural differences. And you can't deny we have differences of thinking which i consider the first good reason to get the fuck out of that canada we don't fit in (in term of ideology).
PQ's creation was to give quebec its independance, now its purpose is debatable (although independance will ALWAYS have its pertinence) . the feasability of independance is also debatable although it is a complete legitimate choice of ours not yours.
now the reason i want this thread Locked is because not only it is not decently presented (mostly ranting against french canadians) also because alot of people like you who don't have the whole information on the matter are only creating frustration in people like me who are directly conserned. while you can have an opinion, all opinions are not valid. yours is definately not valid. your last post jsut made it clear on how much you do not understand politics in quebec (on the student strike).
free quebec, free scotlant, free catalogne! I've already addressed the points about culture in one of my last posts (the same student strike post). I straight up disagree that the acculturation of the natives are what led to the factors of unemployment, suicide, alcoholism, and game dependence. Native reserves are not forced upon the people. The natives that live that are allowed to leave and join the rest of Canada with all the positives and negativities it has. But there in lies what your problem with the situation is. You feel that the natives shouldn't have to join the rest of canada and should be able to continue in their preserving of their culture even though it is unsustainable. My opinion is the fact that the idea of trying to preserve a cultural identity through legislation has no value in a modern multicultural society. I understand that I may feel a little upset if my culture was the one being taken away. But if it makes sense you do what you have to do. Just like the native band in the Okanagan, BC who have embraced the culture around them and started a private business in the energy sector and arn't dealing with any of those problems you discussed. http://www.straight.com/news/okanagan-nation-alliance-open-letter-stephen-harper-regarding-idle-no-more-movementYou're correct is saying that if you want to separate then when the 51% vote comes in you are allowed to do so and i'm not saying you shouldn't be. I'm actually surprisingly not anti separatist BUT while the separatists are apart of canada they will respect the country they live in and be thankful for all we have given you trying to promote the french language around the whole country. My opinion IS valid and is shared by many people in this country of Canada. Like you have said your worldview is also based on your culture so your opinion is no more valid than mine is. Even hinting at the fact that it is, is what disgusts me yet again. I am directly involved with the politics in Quebec because my tax money goes there, that is the truth. I want you to explain to me right now how my stance on the student strike in Quebec equates to me "not understanding Quebecs problems" Regarding the reserves you really don't understand the problem. + Show Spoiler +There is no parental structure after the Residential schools/borderline genocide before that. People who left the residential schools were often abused sexually and physically and had no real education and were banned from speaking their original language. When people would return home after the residential school they wouldn't be able to speak to their parents because they were forced forget the language. It's understandable when you can't find decent work and can't relate to your family you might turn to alcoholism which was already wide spread since the firewater days. Kids with alcoholic parents who don't know how to be parents causes a lot of kids to not give a fuck at school and drop out. I have a native friend who had an alcoholic uncle living on a reserve who killed himself while his kids were still in elementary school. He called the oldest home to clean up a mess and when the oldest walked in the door he found his dad in the living room with a gun still in his mouth. That guys kids eventually dropped out of high school and now they are all alcoholics. There are some serious problems in Native Society and I personally don't have a clue how to fix it. Sorta off topic but saying they can just leave the reserve isn't true.
I don't believe I was saying what the cause of the natives problems are. The self-preserving of their culture is what led them to pass down a language to their children that wasn't used outside of the reserves and further disconnected them from the outside world. If the self-preserving of your culture is what is your downfall, no matter how much it sucks and I do know that it would suck, change it to better your life. When my dutch grandparents were dirt poor in the netherlands they got all the money they could and got on the first boat to canada and assimilated into a new culture because that's what was necessary
|
On February 21 2013 09:07 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 08:59 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2013 08:39 Kukaracha wrote:
I didn't know they were pushing for free education. I'm quite surprised, as I just came back from a semester in Saguenay (north of Quebec), and while there was a strong movement against the rise of tuition fees, only a few spoke of more drastic measures. It does seem a bit idealistic - but hey, that what the far-right and the far-left do : ask for more, always more.
I do, however, agree with the opposition to the previously planned rise of costs, not in the sense that Quebec should be treated better but in the sense that Canada as a whole should adopt a cost-control policy regarding post-secondary education. It's too late in the US, but I believe that Canada can avoid the storm.
"The storm being student debt, the possible future generator of the next global economical crisis!"
The situation becomes that much more ridiculous when you see that american universities are investing less and less on education, and more and more on comfort and infrastructures. Do you live in Canada or France? Just curious. The PQ is toxic for Quebec and for Canada as a whole imo. If you really need to stoop to legislating what people can put on a menu in their restaurant your culture is already long gone and your just creating animosity with blatantly discriminatory laws. If BC tried to pull that with English forcing Asian's to change their signs/menus people would shit themselves. lol have you ever been to quebec? in our chinatown, menus are bilingual sometime trilinguals. they have their chinese description with french traduction below (aint that normal ? i mean we need to knwo what we buy?) PQ isnt toxic for quebec (debatable but on a left/right thing but not in terms of nationalism or separatism). seems like every canadian has an inherent hate toward the idea that a distinct nation should have their own country, goals, orientations? why do you care so much?
The language you use in this post shows that you clearly already agree with PQ ideals, so you obviously won't see any reason to consider them toxic. But we are only having this discussion in the first place because of their toxic behaviour.
|
This anglo-franco problem is really annoying though, because aside from that Canadian people are pretty much the coolest and kindest people I've met so far.
It's like meeting carebears who play badass sports (hockey is amazing), only to find that they profoundly dislike each other. It's heartbreaking!
|
On February 21 2013 09:52 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:44 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2013 09:33 Dawski wrote:On February 21 2013 09:01 crazyweasel wrote:
dear dawski.
the fact that you and me disagree is most likely due to to culture itself. as a matter of fact, there is no social relation that isn't culturally determined (this is proven by science). the main reason you have an opinion is because of your culture. now tell me culture isn't important. culture influences every actions/decision you make. there is a sociolingusitical notion named linguistical market that basically comes down to dominant language vs alternatives ones. the dominant one right now is english (due to european historical emperialism and present status of english as THE market language). knowing this you should then agree that in an mostly english northamerica you guys have alot of DIRECT influence on our french but also on "native" languages. Every existing research on the subject leads to a regression of the alternatives markets such a french or inuktituk for example. meaning these language are more and more english and less and less authentical (we can debate on language revitalisation later). we can argue on the good it makes but if we look at the "indians" life conditions that are directly correlated to acculturation we find -> highest non-employment, suicide, alchoolism, game dependance in the whole canada. now it is a natural process that happens with the constant dominant market vs alternative. as a matter of fact since bill101 passed, regression of french slowly went down to a point where right now it is constant. still regressing but at a slow rate. now, what if YOUR culture was the one slowly getting sucked in the wheel? the thing is not that i am anglophobe not at all i just want to keep my french identity like alot of quebecois. now the best way to do it is to go with legislation that way we ensure the persistance our cultural differences. And you can't deny we have differences of thinking which i consider the first good reason to get the fuck out of that canada we don't fit in (in term of ideology).
PQ's creation was to give quebec its independance, now its purpose is debatable (although independance will ALWAYS have its pertinence) . the feasability of independance is also debatable although it is a complete legitimate choice of ours not yours.
now the reason i want this thread Locked is because not only it is not decently presented (mostly ranting against french canadians) also because alot of people like you who don't have the whole information on the matter are only creating frustration in people like me who are directly conserned. while you can have an opinion, all opinions are not valid. yours is definately not valid. your last post jsut made it clear on how much you do not understand politics in quebec (on the student strike).
free quebec, free scotlant, free catalogne! I've already addressed the points about culture in one of my last posts (the same student strike post). I straight up disagree that the acculturation of the natives are what led to the factors of unemployment, suicide, alcoholism, and game dependence. Native reserves are not forced upon the people. The natives that live that are allowed to leave and join the rest of Canada with all the positives and negativities it has. But there in lies what your problem with the situation is. You feel that the natives shouldn't have to join the rest of canada and should be able to continue in their preserving of their culture even though it is unsustainable. My opinion is the fact that the idea of trying to preserve a cultural identity through legislation has no value in a modern multicultural society. I understand that I may feel a little upset if my culture was the one being taken away. But if it makes sense you do what you have to do. Just like the native band in the Okanagan, BC who have embraced the culture around them and started a private business in the energy sector and arn't dealing with any of those problems you discussed. http://www.straight.com/news/okanagan-nation-alliance-open-letter-stephen-harper-regarding-idle-no-more-movementYou're correct is saying that if you want to separate then when the 51% vote comes in you are allowed to do so and i'm not saying you shouldn't be. I'm actually surprisingly not anti separatist BUT while the separatists are apart of canada they will respect the country they live in and be thankful for all we have given you trying to promote the french language around the whole country. My opinion IS valid and is shared by many people in this country of Canada. Like you have said your worldview is also based on your culture so your opinion is no more valid than mine is. Even hinting at the fact that it is, is what disgusts me yet again. I am directly involved with the politics in Quebec because my tax money goes there, that is the truth. I want you to explain to me right now how my stance on the student strike in Quebec equates to me "not understanding Quebecs problems" Regarding the reserves you really don't understand the problem. + Show Spoiler +There is no parental structure after the Residential schools/borderline genocide before that. People who left the residential schools were often abused sexually and physically and had no real education and were banned from speaking their original language. When people would return home after the residential school they wouldn't be able to speak to their parents because they were forced forget the language. It's understandable when you can't find decent work and can't relate to your family you might turn to alcoholism which was already wide spread since the firewater days. Kids with alcoholic parents who don't know how to be parents causes a lot of kids to not give a fuck at school and drop out. I have a native friend who had an alcoholic uncle living on a reserve who killed himself while his kids were still in elementary school. He called the oldest home to clean up a mess and when the oldest walked in the door he found his dad in the living room with a gun still in his mouth. That guys kids eventually dropped out of high school and now they are all alcoholics. There are some serious problems in Native Society and I personally don't have a clue how to fix it. Sorta off topic but saying they can just leave the reserve isn't true. I don't believe I was saying what the cause of the natives problems are. The self-preserving of their culture is what led them to pass down a language to their children that wasn't used outside of the reserves and further disconnected them from the outside world. If the self-preserving of your culture is what is your downfall, no matter how much it sucks and I do know that it would suck, change it to better your life. When my dutch grandparents were dirt poor in the netherlands they got all the money they could and got on the first boat to canada and assimilated into a new culture because that's what was necessary
Most do speak English now because of the Residential schools. The Residential schools should have made them better because they followed your logic. Instead most of the problems that Native's face is from that.
They spoke their language because the Natives were isolated in the middle of nowhere in the early 20th century. They forcefully took the kids out of their reserves and then forced them to conform to white society. The stated goal of the residential school was to kill the Indian in the child.
The reserves are not about keeping culture now. They are about keeping them in one place so they don't end up in poverty somewhere else.
|
On February 21 2013 09:52 Dawski wrote:
When my dutch grandparents were dirt poor in the netherlands they got all the money they could and got on the first boat to canada and assimilated into a new culture because that's what was necessary
Yeah, but, they weren't invaded... they immigrated! It's a little harsh to blame native americans for not adapting, it's like stealing someone's house, planting them a tent outside, and telling them to deal with it!
There's a dude who did that in France though, he murdered a family and basically took their home. He would chill outside and tell people that the owners gave him the house.
|
On February 21 2013 09:54 Kukaracha wrote:
This anglo-franco problem is really annoying though, because aside from that Canadian people are pretty much the coolest and kindest people I've met so far.
It's like meeting carebears who play badass sports (hockey is amazing), only to find that they profoundly dislike each other. It's heartbreaking!
The thing is I don't dislike the francos...do I dislike an idiology which the majority don't actually share? sure I do but the francos are just as much a respectable people as anyone else. The reason why I'm invested in this is because my fiancee is a french-canadian living in BC. While she likes to hold onto her culture she doesn't support the legislation to do it. I've talked on this subject many times before as you can tell haha. So that's also why i get upset when people accuse someone like me of hating francophone culture and people when it's the furthest from the truth. I'm marrying into one ;P
|
On February 21 2013 09:54 Kukaracha wrote:
This anglo-franco problem is really annoying though, because aside from that Canadian people are pretty much the coolest and kindest people I've met so far.
It's like meeting carebears who play badass sports (hockey is amazing), only to find that they profoundly dislike each other. It's heartbreaking!
We don't though. It's a select few expressing their opinions.
Thanks for the compliment though. It would be hard if Canadians disliked other people, as we're a society made out of people from all over the world (mostly true in the urban cities though).
|
On February 21 2013 09:58 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:52 Dawski wrote:
When my dutch grandparents were dirt poor in the netherlands they got all the money they could and got on the first boat to canada and assimilated into a new culture because that's what was necessary Yeah, but, they weren't invaded... they immigrated! It's a little harsh to blame native americans for not adapting, it's like stealing someone's house, planting them a tent outside, and telling them to deal with it! There's a dude who did that in France though, he murdered a family and basically took their home. He would chill outside and tell people that the owners gave him the house.
Exactly, it is harsh, but it's the fact of life. you pick yourself up off the floor, stop feeling self-pity like we all would in that situation and change for the better. Is there any possible way you can get the house back after multiple generations of that mans family living in that house? no? then you have to adapt no matter how much life pushed you down
|
On February 21 2013 09:29 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:07 crazyweasel wrote:On February 21 2013 08:59 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2013 08:39 Kukaracha wrote:
I didn't know they were pushing for free education. I'm quite surprised, as I just came back from a semester in Saguenay (north of Quebec), and while there was a strong movement against the rise of tuition fees, only a few spoke of more drastic measures. It does seem a bit idealistic - but hey, that what the far-right and the far-left do : ask for more, always more.
I do, however, agree with the opposition to the previously planned rise of costs, not in the sense that Quebec should be treated better but in the sense that Canada as a whole should adopt a cost-control policy regarding post-secondary education. It's too late in the US, but I believe that Canada can avoid the storm.
"The storm being student debt, the possible future generator of the next global economical crisis!"
The situation becomes that much more ridiculous when you see that american universities are investing less and less on education, and more and more on comfort and infrastructures. Do you live in Canada or France? Just curious. The PQ is toxic for Quebec and for Canada as a whole imo. If you really need to stoop to legislating what people can put on a menu in their restaurant your culture is already long gone and your just creating animosity with blatantly discriminatory laws. If BC tried to pull that with English forcing Asian's to change their signs/menus people would shit themselves. lol have you ever been to quebec? in our chinatown, menus are bilingual sometime trilinguals. they have their chinese description with french traduction below (aint that normal ? i mean we need to knwo what we buy?) PQ isnt toxic for quebec (debatable but on a left/right thing but not in terms of nationalism or separatism). seems like every canadian has an inherent hate toward the idea that a distinct nation should have their own country, goals, orientations? why do you care so much? Regardless of how many languages are on a menu your still forcing people to put French on there. To me that's a pretty clear sign that a significant part of the population doesn't want French on signs or else it wouldn't need to be legislated. In the "French cultural stronghold" of Canada you need to make it law to have French on signs that's not a healthy sign for a culture. A restaurant got fined $4500 for having pasta on a menu lol. You don't see why that is bad for business? Or why that would piss off English speaking business owners in Quebec? Correct me if I'm wrong but Quebec's economy has gone down since the glory days when it was the Banking/Manufacturing centre of Canada which was owned by Anglophones left. I care because the Natives in Northern Quebec who have stated over and over and over again over the years they want to stay in Canada might get fucked over. Same with the English speaking Canadians who live in Quebec. I personally think that the whole animosity between English speaking Canada and Quebec is retarded. We have been entwined for over a century. I can't see things really being that bad being a part of Canada. It's not like we force children to not speak French or ban French Signs. We still have French on every label across Canada. We still give you $8 Billion a year in Equalization payments even if it is not the highest per capita it is still a shit load of money. Separating won't help keep your language. You still have two massive English speaking countries on both of your borders any ways.
I am metis (white in appearance and i live in montreal), part of my family lives in sept-iles in a Innu "reserve" . there is no relevent element thats shows natives would get fucked neither the english inside quebec. can you tell me why would they get fucked? while alot of communities in canada are left in third world conditions and the only thing federal government can do is put them under "tutelle". while communities in quebec are much more healthier and it is the case with Innus, cris, and inuits even if there are obviously strong problems like i mentioned earlier(and the solution has to come from politization of our ancestral culture to revitalize our way of living as natives).
the point of having a country is autodetermination not oppression on our minorities, with a country there would be no more need of a bill101, tho french would be the sole official language of the country while bilingual in practice (we all speak english and have to speak english in order to get jobs) . actually the english minority in quebec is the luckiest minority in the world. we have 2 great english university that rank among the ebst in the world, 3 english hospital and you can get service anywhere in english (in montreal, but mainly the english live there too). sure Influence will exist from simple proximity with canada or US but we then have political orientation that is proper to our people.
while i agree we receive good perequations, we also pay 50% of taxes and impositions to canada and have to pay again for our own created institutions (that already exist as federal) so it fits our cultural difference. in other words and you'll check up the stats up statscan.ca we receive in perequation 40% of what we actually give to federal governement in taxes and impositions. in other word we give canada more than we actually receive in perequations. while elsewhere in canada you sure need to have french on labels because you also have french minorities outside quebec. you also owe them in a way that they are canadian and that quebec cant always come to the defense of their rights
|
you guy need to understand something first , QUEBEC = french first , that the NATIVE Langage of quebec .
now since many year both english and french are used , but before the 101 law in many place in montreal people were talking ONLY in english , same for restaurant and place , menue only in english , public place who was talking ONLY english and many people who were coming in quebec were not even learning french ( and BIG % still dont )
from someone who talk french that was REALY disgusting and WRONG .
THINK about people coming in usa and talking not in your langage , open place and store where they talk and give service only in french ...
so before the whole quebec turn english only they have passed the law 101 , the law only give some right in quebec
public place need to give service in english AND french , restaurant need to have menue in english and french and so on.
if you want to stay in a country that the less you can do ..... respect the native langage .
|
On February 21 2013 09:57 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:52 Dawski wrote:On February 21 2013 09:44 tokicheese wrote:On February 21 2013 09:33 Dawski wrote:On February 21 2013 09:01 crazyweasel wrote:
dear dawski.
the fact that you and me disagree is most likely due to to culture itself. as a matter of fact, there is no social relation that isn't culturally determined (this is proven by science). the main reason you have an opinion is because of your culture. now tell me culture isn't important. culture influences every actions/decision you make. there is a sociolingusitical notion named linguistical market that basically comes down to dominant language vs alternatives ones. the dominant one right now is english (due to european historical emperialism and present status of english as THE market language). knowing this you should then agree that in an mostly english northamerica you guys have alot of DIRECT influence on our french but also on "native" languages. Every existing research on the subject leads to a regression of the alternatives markets such a french or inuktituk for example. meaning these language are more and more english and less and less authentical (we can debate on language revitalisation later). we can argue on the good it makes but if we look at the "indians" life conditions that are directly correlated to acculturation we find -> highest non-employment, suicide, alchoolism, game dependance in the whole canada. now it is a natural process that happens with the constant dominant market vs alternative. as a matter of fact since bill101 passed, regression of french slowly went down to a point where right now it is constant. still regressing but at a slow rate. now, what if YOUR culture was the one slowly getting sucked in the wheel? the thing is not that i am anglophobe not at all i just want to keep my french identity like alot of quebecois. now the best way to do it is to go with legislation that way we ensure the persistance our cultural differences. And you can't deny we have differences of thinking which i consider the first good reason to get the fuck out of that canada we don't fit in (in term of ideology).
PQ's creation was to give quebec its independance, now its purpose is debatable (although independance will ALWAYS have its pertinence) . the feasability of independance is also debatable although it is a complete legitimate choice of ours not yours.
now the reason i want this thread Locked is because not only it is not decently presented (mostly ranting against french canadians) also because alot of people like you who don't have the whole information on the matter are only creating frustration in people like me who are directly conserned. while you can have an opinion, all opinions are not valid. yours is definately not valid. your last post jsut made it clear on how much you do not understand politics in quebec (on the student strike).
free quebec, free scotlant, free catalogne! I've already addressed the points about culture in one of my last posts (the same student strike post). I straight up disagree that the acculturation of the natives are what led to the factors of unemployment, suicide, alcoholism, and game dependence. Native reserves are not forced upon the people. The natives that live that are allowed to leave and join the rest of Canada with all the positives and negativities it has. But there in lies what your problem with the situation is. You feel that the natives shouldn't have to join the rest of canada and should be able to continue in their preserving of their culture even though it is unsustainable. My opinion is the fact that the idea of trying to preserve a cultural identity through legislation has no value in a modern multicultural society. I understand that I may feel a little upset if my culture was the one being taken away. But if it makes sense you do what you have to do. Just like the native band in the Okanagan, BC who have embraced the culture around them and started a private business in the energy sector and arn't dealing with any of those problems you discussed. http://www.straight.com/news/okanagan-nation-alliance-open-letter-stephen-harper-regarding-idle-no-more-movementYou're correct is saying that if you want to separate then when the 51% vote comes in you are allowed to do so and i'm not saying you shouldn't be. I'm actually surprisingly not anti separatist BUT while the separatists are apart of canada they will respect the country they live in and be thankful for all we have given you trying to promote the french language around the whole country. My opinion IS valid and is shared by many people in this country of Canada. Like you have said your worldview is also based on your culture so your opinion is no more valid than mine is. Even hinting at the fact that it is, is what disgusts me yet again. I am directly involved with the politics in Quebec because my tax money goes there, that is the truth. I want you to explain to me right now how my stance on the student strike in Quebec equates to me "not understanding Quebecs problems" Regarding the reserves you really don't understand the problem. + Show Spoiler +There is no parental structure after the Residential schools/borderline genocide before that. People who left the residential schools were often abused sexually and physically and had no real education and were banned from speaking their original language. When people would return home after the residential school they wouldn't be able to speak to their parents because they were forced forget the language. It's understandable when you can't find decent work and can't relate to your family you might turn to alcoholism which was already wide spread since the firewater days. Kids with alcoholic parents who don't know how to be parents causes a lot of kids to not give a fuck at school and drop out. I have a native friend who had an alcoholic uncle living on a reserve who killed himself while his kids were still in elementary school. He called the oldest home to clean up a mess and when the oldest walked in the door he found his dad in the living room with a gun still in his mouth. That guys kids eventually dropped out of high school and now they are all alcoholics. There are some serious problems in Native Society and I personally don't have a clue how to fix it. Sorta off topic but saying they can just leave the reserve isn't true. I don't believe I was saying what the cause of the natives problems are. The self-preserving of their culture is what led them to pass down a language to their children that wasn't used outside of the reserves and further disconnected them from the outside world. If the self-preserving of your culture is what is your downfall, no matter how much it sucks and I do know that it would suck, change it to better your life. When my dutch grandparents were dirt poor in the netherlands they got all the money they could and got on the first boat to canada and assimilated into a new culture because that's what was necessary Most do speak English now because of the Residential schools. The Residential schools should have made them better because they followed your logic. Instead most of the problems that Native's face is from that. They spoke their language because the Natives were isolated in the middle of nowhere in the early 20th century. They forcefully took the kids out of their reserves and then forced them to conform to white society. The stated goal of the residential school was to kill the Indian in the child. The reserves are not about keeping culture now. They are about keeping them in one place so they don't end up in poverty somewhere else.
I suppose this is a good learning period for me because I guess I don't understand it. What would the forcing of people away from their culture have to do with them being forced into poverty? Are you saying the residential schools forced kids to not have a relationship with their parents and in turn caused both to turn to alcoholism?
|
On February 21 2013 10:00 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 09:54 Kukaracha wrote:
This anglo-franco problem is really annoying though, because aside from that Canadian people are pretty much the coolest and kindest people I've met so far.
It's like meeting carebears who play badass sports (hockey is amazing), only to find that they profoundly dislike each other. It's heartbreaking! The thing is I don't dislike the francos...do I dislike an idiology which the majority don't actually share? sure I do but the francos are just as much a respectable people as anyone else. The reason why I'm invested in this is because my fiancee is a french-canadian living in BC. While she likes to hold onto her culture she doesn't support the legislation to do it. I've talked on this subject many times before as you can tell haha. So that's also why i get upset when people accuse someone like me of hating francophone culture and people when it's the furthest from the truth. I'm marrying into one ;P
Granted you might not dislike them, but you have a poor taste in TV news . I looked at the video you posted from the sun news network and I stopped at Canadian Common Sense. There's no such thing as a Canadian Common Sense. Might be why I dislike watching the news on TV and prefer reading from multiple sources.
On February 21 2013 07:24 Dawski wrote:
If you must use legislation to keep your heritage alive, you've already failed. That's my opinion on the subject.
It doesn't matter how much BS the journal is FFS. The point is the OQLF targeted a private business for not being french enough. That is the fact and I think the people in this thread are allowed to have the opinion that it is bullshit in a modern day society
We can agree to disagree. I mean, the word heritage is probably as loaded as the word ethnocide. We could include architectural buildings, language, events, etc. as part of our heritage.
Should we not protect our cultural heritage? I believe we should, yes. Events of our history should be taught in school, language should be protected, historical buildings should be maintained for centuries to come.
Edit: Wrote thought instead of taught, hah.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
