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On February 18 2006 11:06 LegendaryDreams wrote:
I need motivation.
I\'m just the average student in the school setting (difference from average person). My grades are not spectacular, however, they are good grades (high 80s average). On that note, I do excel in many extracurriculars.
Surely we all know that education can make one more potentially developed; however, this also can be argued. Is it just merely a trend that less and less people are dropping out of high school and less college / university student are getting their masters and phds degrees?
This dosen\'t mean going beyond high school is frowned upon. I just believe that sometimes the idea of overachieving or \"doing your best\" is overemphasized. If I look at some of my collegues, there are ones that I have a certain loathe towards: their life is based upon their grades. These people CRY over things like getting an 95% instead of their usually 99% or 100%. They are very selfish and insecure about their marks: wishing that they\'ll always be that #1 student and no one can exceed them, it\'s just absolutely rediculous.
Should we really sacrifice our time, hobbies, friends, relations, and lives to achieve that 2400 SAT mark or to hit that 95%+ average just for the university applications? If you look at all of those students with high GPAs, ask them what hobbies they have or what else they are good at. Most of the time, it\'s nothing but studying or school. Is it really worth it?
Take China, South Korea, and Japan for an example. They have their students work until midnight non-stop just on homework. Study their asses off when their a test. And for their final exam (qualifying for universities) students study non-stop for days and weeks. Some commit suicide because of the pressure, others do poorly and must take it again. I hate it when tests are so heavily emphasized like that, because it rarely shows the true intelligence of a student. Anyone can prepare for a long period of time for something and heavily increase the results, for tests or things other than tests. It really sucks too because when they emphasize that stuff so heavily, the students are either forced to take it that seriously, or risk looking much less intelligent than they might be - by being anti-social and more interest in school than anything else.
I don\'t believe in school controlling life. I just don\'t believe in life being spent devoted to school. If the only reason to learn is to learn more, life isn\'t worth living. \"Live life to the fullest\" Are you really doing that if your life is based upon studying? Stuff like that leaves so little room to enjoy life.
Why to we eat? To survive. Why do we live? To replicate. Why do we cry? To show our emotions. So why do we study then?
Discuss, future bright minds. Erm... We study hard during our final years of high school, and all through college/university so we can land a decent job when we do finish our study, and we don't end up living on the streets. I can tell you i study pretty damn had although i practice percussion every day for at least 1 hour, and most days more. So there, i have a few hobies actually but i still study hard.
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My theory on Japan's education is that there is no natural resources in Japan. So, they kind of "created" one in their education system. Japan relies on it's people intelligence as a way for their economy to operate. An easy example would be to compare Japan to Saudi Arabia which is dependent on oil for their income. India and China have people that will work for next to nothing.
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Bill,
From my university experience, it's quite the opposite
Better long-term relationships? No. I do not want a person that likes me for what I posses. An educated female usually love someone with similar education or money. An uneducated female are willing to love something that is either educated or uneducated.
Better long-term friends? Not necessarily. I never been to a place that had so many arrogant assholes in my life. A lot of backstabbing shit I had to deal with. It was a nightmare since it cost me a lot of money.
Better personality yourself? yeah right! If anything, it would help socialize with the other geeks in university  . My social skills improved significantly when I worked with people no education. So many hots girls too. That improved my personality so much.
Better opportunities to learn? Again not necessarily. Because I work in a no degree required job, I was able to meet people that would otherwise equivalently be very difficult at university. I was able to personally talk to the top guys & learn how their business ran. I learn how a small sector of a corporation ran & gain experience on what I would have to do if I myself one day wanted to do business with a corporation. Opporunities like these are few & difficult in my university.
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Korea (South)11602 Posts
Please stop bumping threads.
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Life is what you make of it.
Anyone who thinks there is a blueprint depicting the path to happiness is a fool. Education is not necessary to attain what one needs in life: to be happy. It may make the journey easier, you may want to take that trek because that's what you want to do, but to trivialize the multitude of possibilities life has to offer outside of education is asinine. To hold in contempt the people who realize that is deplorable.
And that's where i find that university students come second to none. If you take your average run-of-the-mill student, and throw them in with a construction worker, a social drug user, a highschool dropout, an under-20 mom, or a pothead, the student usually wouldn't waste their time on them. Without knowing anything more specific than that about a person, they will dismiss their merrits and their person, and not even bother trying to find out what else there is to know. And this i hold in contempt. Chances are, that student wouldn't have anything in common with those people, but the reason he won't talk to them is because he thinks lower of them. The reason that those people wouldn't seek the university student is because they know that. There are always exceptions to the rule. And i know this. That is why i do not avoid university students any more than i avoid anyone else. A persons life and their experiences are what make them who they are. That is plural. So find out more than the first thing that they can be judged by. Or maybe stop judging them at all.
I know this from personal experience. When i hang out with my university friends, and they introduce me to their friends, after a while, the subject comes up that i have not even graduated highschool. They are shocked. Some even appalled. Most of the time they do not dismiss the pleasant experience they've had talking with me, but some of them are obviously put off. That's usually when i volunteer that i do construction for a living, do drugs, and am homosexual. That rids me of people i don't like right quick. My university friends typically keep me away from judgemental individuals. They are wise.
Exalted, this brings us to you. It is not my intention to sound like a sour grape. I'm not gonna pretend that i have it hard though. I'm not gonna pretend that i've made the wrong decisions. I also won't have the audacity to tell anyone that they aren't worth befriending because a lack of post-secondary education. I can't believe out of my whole post, that the one thing you pick out of it is that i can 'keep up intellectually' with my friend. Especially when keeping up intellectually is the most unimportant piece of our relationship. I would also never ask for help with an essay. I have pride in my ability to write. And if someone is going to select me into university based on my essay, i have the pride to write my own. If they reject it, i will have pride in the fact that i did the best that i could do. However, i do not hold you to those same merits. Infact, if you were to dig up that thread i was one of the few people that defended you.
Heres what i find ironic: Some - if not most - of the people that were belittling you and holding you in judgement were university students. The people that make 'better friends', 'better relationships', and have had the fortunate circumstances of being bettered by their university experience.
If i could spit on you from this forum, know that it would be a snot-filled-loogie.
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You don`t study your whole life. So i dont get u. Its just 2-4 years after highschool. And after that if u done good you´ll be succesfull in u life and don´t need to worry about u future.
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On March 30 2006 19:34 O.Oa wrote:
You don`t study your whole life. So i dont get u. Its just 2-4 years after highschool. And after that if u done good you´ll be succesfull in u life and don´t need to worry about u future.
Education does not denote anything but material success.
You can go to school at any time. Why rush going when you're young and don't want to, when you can when you're older and will want to?
I don't worry about my future because the choices i make in my life leave no room for worry.
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I agree with mora completely (which happens alot so maybe im not the best person to be commenting here but fuck it)
School is important, and obviously it helps you get a job etc. These arent even necessary to say.
I dont think college has any moral effect on you at all though, i dunno where that assumption came from. Ive known people from both sides of the fence on this one, and it really makes no difference. If someone is a dumbshit arrogant prick etc. He/she will most likely be the same regardless of college experience. If he/she is down to earth etc. They will be the same most likely. Obviously, this isnt the case for everyone, some people have different experiences along their path in/out of college so they can go from one road to the other.
All in all, education is important because of the society we live in today where most jobs need it. Not the fact that education affects you so much as a person. Math does fuck all for your personal life, certain classes, English, philosophy, social sciences,etc can change you somewhat but odds are you are still giong to be the same person regardless as towhether you took them or not.
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Go to school when you're young because you learn better when you're young, and the benefits of schooling are cumulative over time.
I remember reading that on average, every year of additional schooling will increase your annual income by 10%. I don't know how much of that is causal and how much is correlational (smarter people will on average tend to do more school, but would probably get paid more even if they didn't).
I think there's a sweet spot in terms of how much effort one should put into school. Too little and you'll have regrets later on in life about what you might've been able to do, or that you didn't take the easily presented opportunities to learn things. Like now I wish I had paid more attention in Chinese school as a kid. Too much and you're basically sacrificing enjoying your youth and growing in non-academic areas. Plus there's a good chance you'll establish a pattern to become a workaholic for the rest of your life.
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good post.
however, if i am happy making 30k/year, why on earth would i sacrifice time spent being happy just to earn 200k/year?
if money could purchase time, i'd be all for it.
i refuse to miss out on so many awesome opportunities just for a better paycheck.
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On February 18 2006 23:50 exalted wrote:I don't really understand how this initial post has sparked constructive discussion - I have the [dis]pleasure of talking with him regularly and he's just being an emo donkey right now. What other skills does the OP want to "possess" - Starcraft pro hurr hurrr. The mere grammar and construction of his argument makes me wince. If you're smart enough, its not that hard to get top grades, suck it up so you can party at a top tier school. Social life? Bitch please, speak for yourself. And Teroru, talk about sour grapes - just becuase you can "keep up" intellectually with a friend doesn't mean that Bill's arguments are therefore nullified. For every college student that is a dumbass, I can show you 100 rednecks. I strongly support Bill's arguments - you've said yourself you easily became depressed with high school (what the fuck?) and you're lazy, yet you have the audacity to talk shit about college students? All in all, this post along with the other Kind Soul post the OP presented just makes me want to hurl. Get recognized becuase you contribute absolutely nothing to society? Get a grip, you're meaningless unless you imbue your life with passion. If your idea of being happy is dicking around to eventually work a mediocre job for 25 years, then congratulations - you're like the other 99% of America!!! I don't believe education is the end all, but I think that most of society is too dumb to make an impact without higher education. "If the point of learning is just to learn, why live life"  Exalted you right for every college student thats a dumbass. I bet you can find 100 rednecks that are twice as stupid. However I think Teroru point is that just because most college students will be smarter. It does not make them better people. I'm sure there are alot of stupid monks in the world some place that are alot nicer then your smart butt.
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On February 18 2006 11:06 LegendaryDreams wrote:
I need motivation.
I\'m just the average student in the school setting (difference from average person). My grades are not spectacular, however, they are good grades (high 80s average). On that note, I do excel in many extracurriculars.
Surely we all know that education can make one more potentially developed; however, this also can be argued. Is it just merely a trend that less and less people are dropping out of high school and less college / university student are getting their masters and phds degrees?
This dosen\'t mean going beyond high school is frowned upon. I just believe that sometimes the idea of overachieving or \"doing your best\" is overemphasized. If I look at some of my collegues, there are ones that I have a certain loathe towards: their life is based upon their grades. These people CRY over things like getting an 95% instead of their usually 99% or 100%. They are very selfish and insecure about their marks: wishing that they\'ll always be that #1 student and no one can exceed them, it\'s just absolutely rediculous.
Should we really sacrifice our time, hobbies, friends, relations, and lives to achieve that 2400 SAT mark or to hit that 95%+ average just for the university applications? If you look at all of those students with high GPAs, ask them what hobbies they have or what else they are good at. Most of the time, it\'s nothing but studying or school. Is it really worth it?
Take China, South Korea, and Japan for an example. They have their students work until midnight non-stop just on homework. Study their asses off when their a test. And for their final exam (qualifying for universities) students study non-stop for days and weeks. Some commit suicide because of the pressure, others do poorly and must take it again. I hate it when tests are so heavily emphasized like that, because it rarely shows the true intelligence of a student. Anyone can prepare for a long period of time for something and heavily increase the results, for tests or things other than tests. It really sucks too because when they emphasize that stuff so heavily, the students are either forced to take it that seriously, or risk looking much less intelligent than they might be - by being anti-social and more interest in school than anything else.
I don\'t believe in school controlling life. I just don\'t believe in life being spent devoted to school. If the only reason to learn is to learn more, life isn\'t worth living. \"Live life to the fullest\" Are you really doing that if your life is based upon studying? Stuff like that leaves so little room to enjoy life.
Why to we eat? To survive. Why do we live? To replicate. Why do we cry? To show our emotions. So why do we study then?
Discuss, future bright minds. Dude its all about what you want out of life. If money, power, and all the other littil things that come with a first class education are importent to you. Then you better study your butt off. However it seems its not. So If geting B+ grades and likely making a decent but not great salary is cool with you. Then do that too. Some of the happiest people I know are working class stiffs that live pay check to pay check.
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LegendaryDreams, I think you have presented a false dilema in your initial post. I may be summarizing this all wrong, but I believe you have said there is:
-You, the average student, getting B's.
-People who make school their lives, needing to get the highest A.
In reality, you need sufficient grades and test scores to reach your goals. You first have to define those goals.
Certainly, some people need a good rank in their class (thus need every point!) and need the highest possible SAT score (again, a task that can demand almost as much time as you can give). If you accept goals that are this demanding, well, you have no choice.
It shouldn't be difficult for you to understand what kinds of goals would have use for those extremes: getting into the best University possible, for instance.
And you are right--at what cost? What is their life? And are they so right about University?
First of all, some Universities overvalue the overachiever. An overachiever has proven they can work hard and obey, which definitely is a better bet in almost any task than a slacker, or worse, the person who is actually challenged by easy tasks.
And the problem is that they can't definitvely tell the difference: is this person a dumbass or just bright and bored? Would this person be lazy once they are actually doing real studies? Who knows! But at least the overachiever seems like a better bet.
But other Universities have a different outlook. It's just lower level undergrad we're talking about here. People change a lot in those 2-3 years before they really start being an adult actually studying something (as opposed to just studying for tests and bullshitting papers for grades). You may very well get through your undergrad learning nothing, but having proved you can go through a lot of bullshit; having proof of that, again, makes you a better bet for employers. It's not really the skills they're usually after (with a few exceptions--certain areas of study are very demanding in technical areas, but if you end up only with that, you haven't really gotten an education, only a training, albeit sometimes an exclusive and valuable one).
What's so important about "actual intelligence"? We're talking about Universities betting on applicants to:
-not drop out
-go on and do something great
-not make them look bad by getting into trouble
... those sorts of things. That's what matters when they decide who to take and who not to take: statistics and P.R.
And employers? They want someone who is a good bet. Seldom is a job putting "actual intelligence" or "talent" first, else we would all be having these "interesting, creative" jobs requiring us to just think up ideas and give opinions all day. The truth is that most jobs we're talking about here are looking more for your bullshit tolerence, your strength under stress, to not make them look bad, to not fail at tasks, to fit in where others would collapse in a fit of immaturity and stupidity.
So yes, this is sad. Education is a game. Prove you can beat it, move on. It can also be an opportunity for personal growth, but attempting that may or may not pay off in any tangible way. Deciding to take that leap of faith, or not, I leave to you. If you think you can put personal growth first and you will still be about the same "on paper," at least, I say go for it, beacuse there's a chance those intangibles will actually make a good tangible difference, too.
So, boo-hoo. Society is pretty pathetic. All these kids being tortured to death for decades in the name of them knowing their mechanics, their obedience, and their culture.
Let me say this. I've all but completed four years at University. And I have easily seen that I could have done nothing and come out of this institution with a degree, feeling no more qualified to do anything beyond "moving boxes, serving food, or selling clothing" than before I entered, or at least no more than I would be now, at my age, were I to have never entered. But it's a waste of time that makes me a slightly better bet to employers, that I went through this effortless waste of time, could pay for it and complete it. People who can't even do that are either screwed by their life, or complete retards. And I can see why employers would rather not try to sort out which is which when there are so many college graduates to choose from instead. You can also look at which classes and which grades they got and differenciate between them even more.
But what was my point? Don't go to University just thinking "I need a degree so I can get a better job," because you'll end up not caring what you're doing, if you only do it for a job... to be successful at University, you must understand what you are there to do, and understand what choices you must make to do it well. At Universities you study something because it's what you want to know well, because you are motivated to become experienced in studying that... if you do that, you commit to it, then you get something more than a piece of paper out of your undergrad. You can still get that piece of paper, too, see?
There's an alternate option, to become a human calculator. That's the only way you go into University thinking "I want more money, I'll learn a hard skill by working hard for N semesters." Become a human calculator regarding some arm applied system of formal logic, and you may very well jump from being a 20k-30k/year person to 50k/year+. But how many of us would really be anything but tortured on that path right to our bitter deaths?
We believe simple reductions like "education=money=good life" because we want to believe we know how to get a good life, and that what we're doing (before we even could decide) is for a good life, in the end. Living a good life now, after all, is probably impossible. So let's at least keep trying to secure one someday. You trade your life to the machine, part of the machine telling you that this is in exchange for being free sometime later. Think about it.
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EPT
