On August 23 2012 22:05 MattBarry wrote: If a woman climbs into your bed naked and gets raped, then the legal system should prosecute the rapists as it should. HOWEVER, climbing into a bed naked is a really stupid decision and to feel even a shred of sympathy for some doing something so reckless is also stupid
What are you talking about? Like, a scenario where a strange woman just mysteriously appears in your bed? (breaking and entering) Or one where a woman you know comes home with you and goes to lie naked in your bed? (in which case maybe she was thinking about consenting, but hadn't yet made up her mind) And then if she gets raped you can't be bothered to feel sympathy for the woman?
Idk, it just seems stupid to throw yourself in the lions den by doing that. In an ideal world, rape doesn't exist but it isn't an ideal world and to make stupid decisions that drastically increase your chances of being raped, then you're an idiot
The most common emotional responses to sexual harassment, battering, and rape are guilt, fear, powerlessness, shame, betrayal, anger, and denial. Guilt is often the first and deepest response. Anger may arise only later; this is not surprising, because as women we often have no sense of a right to be free from these kinds of violence.
We may feel guilty about violence done to us because we are taught that our job is to make men happy, and if they aren't, we--not they--are to blame. Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."
WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
It's not the victims fault, they're just foolishly increasing their chances.
So when someone gets an accident from, say, horse riding you say: "well, I can't feel any sympathy because horse riding is more risky than doing nothing".
On August 23 2012 22:05 MattBarry wrote: If a woman climbs into your bed naked and gets raped, then the legal system should prosecute the rapists as it should. HOWEVER, climbing into a bed naked is a really stupid decision and to feel even a shred of sympathy for some doing something so reckless is also stupid
What are you talking about? Like, a scenario where a strange woman just mysteriously appears in your bed? (breaking and entering) Or one where a woman you know comes home with you and goes to lie naked in your bed? (in which case maybe she was thinking about consenting, but hadn't yet made up her mind) And then if she gets raped you can't be bothered to feel sympathy for the woman?
Idk, it just seems stupid to throw yourself in the lions den by doing that. In an ideal world, rape doesn't exist but it isn't an ideal world and to make stupid decisions that drastically increase your chances of being raped, then you're an idiot
The most common emotional responses to sexual harassment, battering, and rape are guilt, fear, powerlessness, shame, betrayal, anger, and denial. Guilt is often the first and deepest response. Anger may arise only later; this is not surprising, because as women we often have no sense of a right to be free from these kinds of violence.
We may feel guilty about violence done to us because we are taught that our job is to make men happy, and if they aren't, we--not they--are to blame. Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."
WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
It's not the victims fault, they're just foolishly increasing their chances.
So when someone gets an accident from, say, horse riding you say: "well, I can't feel any sympathy because horse riding is more risky than doing nothing".
A more appropriate analogy is someone going into section 8 housing in new Orleans in a brand new nice car that screams "I have money, please rob me" Sure, in an ideal world people don't get robbed. But they do, and doing something so obviously stupid, is in fact stupid.
On August 23 2012 22:05 MattBarry wrote: If a woman climbs into your bed naked and gets raped, then the legal system should prosecute the rapists as it should. HOWEVER, climbing into a bed naked is a really stupid decision and to feel even a shred of sympathy for some doing something so reckless is also stupid
What are you talking about? Like, a scenario where a strange woman just mysteriously appears in your bed? (breaking and entering) Or one where a woman you know comes home with you and goes to lie naked in your bed? (in which case maybe she was thinking about consenting, but hadn't yet made up her mind) And then if she gets raped you can't be bothered to feel sympathy for the woman?
Idk, it just seems stupid to throw yourself in the lions den by doing that. In an ideal world, rape doesn't exist but it isn't an ideal world and to make stupid decisions that drastically increase your chances of being raped, then you're an idiot
The most common emotional responses to sexual harassment, battering, and rape are guilt, fear, powerlessness, shame, betrayal, anger, and denial. Guilt is often the first and deepest response. Anger may arise only later; this is not surprising, because as women we often have no sense of a right to be free from these kinds of violence.
We may feel guilty about violence done to us because we are taught that our job is to make men happy, and if they aren't, we--not they--are to blame. Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."
WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
It's not the victims fault, they're just foolishly increasing their chances.
So when someone gets an accident from, say, horse riding you say: "well, I can't feel any sympathy because horse riding is more risky than doing nothing".
yeah...its more like someone going horse back riding and trying to stand up on the horse's back
Like all things, legal theory should consider intent.
If the guy(or gal) knows they shouldn't because the person said no, attempted to resist, or had no way of gaining consent such as retardation/age.
In all other cases I would not consider it rape including: 1) Unclear signals, such as sexual advances 2) A sudden change in behavioral patterns such as alcohol, drugs, mood...etc.
P.S. If a naked women gets into your bed....you can always ask, leave, or kick the bitch out. You don't have to rape anyone.
Honestly, this is one of those situations like John gatti. Call him in for a crime that he didn't really commit, just to get him in jail. Not saying Jon gatti didn't do crime, but he certainly wasn't wanted for tax evasion. That was just how they could get him to court. I feel this is the same with assange an wiki leaks. The girl has consensual sex earlier that night, and this whol " surprise rape" shit I am certaintly not buying.
Guys, it's not hard. Only have sex with a woman if she gives explicit consent to have penetrative sex with you. There is no such thing as "unclear signals, such as sexual advances" because any signal that is not explicit consent is insufficient.
On August 23 2012 22:36 Thenerf wrote: Like all things, legal theory should consider intent.
If the guy(or gal) knows they shouldn't because the person said no, attempted to resist, or had no way of gaining consent such as retardation/age.
In all other cases I would not consider it rape including: 1) Unclear signals, such as sexual advances 2) A sudden change in behavioral patterns such as alcohol, drugs, mood...etc.
P.S. If a naked women gets into your bed....you can always ask, leave, or kick the bitch out. You don't have to rape anyone.
Ohw. If a naked woman gets into your bed, would you still ask her "Shall we have sex?" That's be so socially awkward geeky.
On August 23 2012 22:05 MattBarry wrote: If a woman climbs into your bed naked and gets raped, then the legal system should prosecute the rapists as it should. HOWEVER, climbing into a bed naked is a really stupid decision and to feel even a shred of sympathy for some doing something so reckless is also stupid
What are you talking about? Like, a scenario where a strange woman just mysteriously appears in your bed? (breaking and entering) Or one where a woman you know comes home with you and goes to lie naked in your bed? (in which case maybe she was thinking about consenting, but hadn't yet made up her mind) And then if she gets raped you can't be bothered to feel sympathy for the woman?
Idk, it just seems stupid to throw yourself in the lions den by doing that. In an ideal world, rape doesn't exist but it isn't an ideal world and to make stupid decisions that drastically increase your chances of being raped, then you're an idiot
The most common emotional responses to sexual harassment, battering, and rape are guilt, fear, powerlessness, shame, betrayal, anger, and denial. Guilt is often the first and deepest response. Anger may arise only later; this is not surprising, because as women we often have no sense of a right to be free from these kinds of violence.
We may feel guilty about violence done to us because we are taught that our job is to make men happy, and if they aren't, we--not they--are to blame. Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."
WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
It's not the victims fault, they're just foolishly increasing their chances.
So when someone gets an accident from, say, horse riding you say: "well, I can't feel any sympathy because horse riding is more risky than doing nothing".
A more appropriate analogy is someone going into section 8 housing in new Orleans in a brand new nice car that screams "I have money, please rob me" Sure, in an ideal world people don't get robbed. But they do, and doing something so obviously stupid, is in fact stupid.
Are we really sitting here thinking of reasons why women are partially to blame for being raped?
If we unilaterally agree that women are not at fault for being victims of sexual assault (and we should) then there is no point in even discussing how "they're foolishly increasing their chances" or whatever.
On August 23 2012 22:36 Thenerf wrote: Like all things, legal theory should consider intent.
If the guy(or gal) knows they shouldn't because the person said no, attempted to resist, or had no way of gaining consent such as retardation/age.
In all other cases I would not consider it rape including: 1) Unclear signals, such as sexual advances 2) A sudden change in behavioral patterns such as alcohol, drugs, mood...etc.
P.S. If a naked women gets into your bed....you can always ask, leave, or kick the bitch out. You don't have to rape anyone.
The problem with using such vague terminology is that it makes it even harder to make what is already a very difficult charge stick. If you give the defense the tools to say "she didn't say no, she said 'mehhhhybe' so it's not rape," it becomes almost impossible to convict except in the very obvious cases of violent sexual assault.
You have to have a very clear definition of rape. Yes means yes, anything else is not consent. Being in a position of power and forcing consent is not consent. If a woman makes sexual advances and sends mixed signals, but explicitly refuses sex, it's rape. If a woman is drunk or high and gives no consent for or against, it's rape. If a woman gives consent because the alternative is, for example, losing her job or being violently attacked, it's rape.
Seriously. Where would you draw the line then, as a man, on what practice exactly would be considered safe enough for women to be doing in her life before you blame(either entirely or just enough as to lack sympathy) them for being the victim?
Putting yourself in that position, whichever it may be, do you feel ashamed or guilty at some level just for being there in the first place?
At the very least, for the sake of forward movement in the thread, we should at least pretend to agree as the last poster has assumed
On August 23 2012 22:05 MattBarry wrote: If a woman climbs into your bed naked and gets raped, then the legal system should prosecute the rapists as it should. HOWEVER, climbing into a bed naked is a really stupid decision and to feel even a shred of sympathy for some doing something so reckless is also stupid
What are you talking about? Like, a scenario where a strange woman just mysteriously appears in your bed? (breaking and entering) Or one where a woman you know comes home with you and goes to lie naked in your bed? (in which case maybe she was thinking about consenting, but hadn't yet made up her mind) And then if she gets raped you can't be bothered to feel sympathy for the woman?
Idk, it just seems stupid to throw yourself in the lions den by doing that. In an ideal world, rape doesn't exist but it isn't an ideal world and to make stupid decisions that drastically increase your chances of being raped, then you're an idiot
The most common emotional responses to sexual harassment, battering, and rape are guilt, fear, powerlessness, shame, betrayal, anger, and denial. Guilt is often the first and deepest response. Anger may arise only later; this is not surprising, because as women we often have no sense of a right to be free from these kinds of violence.
We may feel guilty about violence done to us because we are taught that our job is to make men happy, and if they aren't, we--not they--are to blame. Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."
WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
It's not the victims fault, they're just foolishly increasing their chances.
So when someone gets an accident from, say, horse riding you say: "well, I can't feel any sympathy because horse riding is more risky than doing nothing".
A more appropriate analogy is someone going into section 8 housing in new Orleans in a brand new nice car that screams "I have money, please rob me" Sure, in an ideal world people don't get robbed. But they do, and doing something so obviously stupid, is in fact stupid.
That actually happened, and I'm pretty sure the green-shirted guy in the video is grumbels here on teamliquid because he thinks foolishly putting yourself in a high risk-situation is the perpetrator's fault:
But at the end of the day, if you're the girl who gets naked in a guy's bed, oh well, you get raped because that's REALITY. Go on your soapbox after the fact, but you're still victimized and shamed. It's best to avoid risky situations!
Only a foolish guy would act rich in a poor neighborhood, expecting not to get mugged.
On August 23 2012 15:23 IceThorN wrote: Rape should be this: Forced vaginal intercourse or a comparable sexual act, which is carried out by assault or threat of violence.
If it don't specificly say "Forced" then any golddigger will be able to go in a bar, pick up a man or two, and then call it rape sometime later to get money, to have fun or just to settle an argument.
Men have been on the rough end of the dating game since forever. Please don't make it worse ;(
Sorry, clarify this for me please. The existence of rape means that men get the short straw because of the potential for false accusations? What about women who, you know, actually get raped?
On August 23 2012 22:05 MattBarry wrote: If a woman climbs into your bed naked and gets raped, then the legal system should prosecute the rapists as it should. HOWEVER, climbing into a bed naked is a really stupid decision and to feel even a shred of sympathy for some doing something so reckless is also stupid
What are you talking about? Like, a scenario where a strange woman just mysteriously appears in your bed? (breaking and entering) Or one where a woman you know comes home with you and goes to lie naked in your bed? (in which case maybe she was thinking about consenting, but hadn't yet made up her mind) And then if she gets raped you can't be bothered to feel sympathy for the woman?
Idk, it just seems stupid to throw yourself in the lions den by doing that. In an ideal world, rape doesn't exist but it isn't an ideal world and to make stupid decisions that drastically increase your chances of being raped, then you're an idiot
The most common emotional responses to sexual harassment, battering, and rape are guilt, fear, powerlessness, shame, betrayal, anger, and denial. Guilt is often the first and deepest response. Anger may arise only later; this is not surprising, because as women we often have no sense of a right to be free from these kinds of violence.
We may feel guilty about violence done to us because we are taught that our job is to make men happy, and if they aren't, we--not they--are to blame. Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."
WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
It's not the victims fault, they're just foolishly increasing their chances.
So when someone gets an accident from, say, horse riding you say: "well, I can't feel any sympathy because horse riding is more risky than doing nothing".
A more appropriate analogy is someone going into section 8 housing in new Orleans in a brand new nice car that screams "I have money, please rob me" Sure, in an ideal world people don't get robbed. But they do, and doing something so obviously stupid, is in fact stupid.
That actually happened, and I'm pretty sure the green-shirted guy in the video is grumbels here on teamliquid because he thinks foolishly putting yourself in a high risk-situation is the perpetrator's fault:
But at the end of the day, if you're the girl who gets naked in a guy's bed, oh well, you get raped because that's REALITY. Go on your soapbox after the fact, but you're still victimized and shamed. It's best to avoid risky situations!
Only a foolish guy would act rich in a poor neighborhood, expecting not to get mugged.
An action is the fault of the person who performed it.
If you put yourself in a high-risk situation, and you get mugged, it is still the fault of the person who mugged you. That person made the decision to mug you.
I can't conceive of how you would come to any other conclusion.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it. Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
Albeit it's a smart analogy, it's not completely valid because sex will never be as strong a drive as hunger. As far as I know, having sex is not necessary to live. Furthermore, if you happen to get too aroused while not wanting to indulge in a hug with the lady, we all know there's another way to relieve yourself ; which unfortunately isn't the case when one nears starvation.
I hope you are joking. Sex is essential for life. If no one have sex, then the human race ends.
Masturbating might be the right answar, but if you see a hot woman and she is literally grinding her naked body on you, then that is the last thing you will think of.
Whatever, the whole "naked girl lying in bed" in such a contrived example anyway. Studies have shown that men have a very good idea of if women are consenting. Explicit consent is not just interrogating her and asking her to swear that she will have penetrative sex without following legal action. It's also clear body language and the like. Flirting is not explicit consent. Lying in bed naked is not explicit consent. However, if you kiss her and she is receptive to you and then you undress and she is again receptive that is one example of explicit consent. Don't pretend like men are just so dumb that they can misinterpret these things. If you are ever unsure you can just ask for permission and not take chances. It won't kill the mood, I promise.
There is also a difference between being to blame for something and not having taken precautions to lower your chance of being targeted. I myself was mugged once and in retrospect I should have been more careful, but I was not to blame for the event. The only person to blame is the mugger/rapist.
On August 23 2012 22:05 MattBarry wrote: If a woman climbs into your bed naked and gets raped, then the legal system should prosecute the rapists as it should. HOWEVER, climbing into a bed naked is a really stupid decision and to feel even a shred of sympathy for some doing something so reckless is also stupid
What are you talking about? Like, a scenario where a strange woman just mysteriously appears in your bed? (breaking and entering) Or one where a woman you know comes home with you and goes to lie naked in your bed? (in which case maybe she was thinking about consenting, but hadn't yet made up her mind) And then if she gets raped you can't be bothered to feel sympathy for the woman?
Idk, it just seems stupid to throw yourself in the lions den by doing that. In an ideal world, rape doesn't exist but it isn't an ideal world and to make stupid decisions that drastically increase your chances of being raped, then you're an idiot
The most common emotional responses to sexual harassment, battering, and rape are guilt, fear, powerlessness, shame, betrayal, anger, and denial. Guilt is often the first and deepest response. Anger may arise only later; this is not surprising, because as women we often have no sense of a right to be free from these kinds of violence.
We may feel guilty about violence done to us because we are taught that our job is to make men happy, and if they aren't, we--not they--are to blame. Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."
WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
It's not the victims fault, they're just foolishly increasing their chances.
So when someone gets an accident from, say, horse riding you say: "well, I can't feel any sympathy because horse riding is more risky than doing nothing".
A more appropriate analogy is someone going into section 8 housing in new Orleans in a brand new nice car that screams "I have money, please rob me" Sure, in an ideal world people don't get robbed. But they do, and doing something so obviously stupid, is in fact stupid.
That actually happened, and I'm pretty sure the green-shirted guy in the video is grumbels here on teamliquid because he thinks foolishly putting yourself in a high risk-situation is the perpetrator's fault:
But at the end of the day, if you're the girl who gets naked in a guy's bed, oh well, you get raped because that's REALITY. Go on your soapbox after the fact, but you're still victimized and shamed. It's best to avoid risky situations!
Only a foolish guy would act rich in a poor neighborhood, expecting not to get mugged.
Hold on. Do I understand correctly you are saying that the tourist who apparently got lost and just stood on some street in Baltimore is at fault for getting beat up, stripped off his cloths and belongings, and not the people who did it to him? The video you posted is sickening, and if you really are defending those bastards I am shocked. I hope I misunderstood you.
We could make a good analog out of this. If i BBQ a boar in africa, and i promis this obviously starved individual some of it, and then deny it when it's finally done, most people would say that it's my own fault if he just steals it. Same thing goes for sex. It's a deep drive in men, it's way stronger than any drug. How can it be his fault, if the woman does some shit like that then?
Albeit it's a smart analogy, it's not completely valid because sex will never be as strong a drive as hunger. As far as I know, having sex is not necessary to live. Furthermore, if you happen to get too aroused while not wanting to indulge in a hug with the lady, we all know there's another way to relieve yourself ; which unfortunately isn't the case when one nears starvation.
I hope you are joking. Sex is essential for life. If no one have sex, then the human race ends.
Masturbating might be the right answar, but if you see a hot woman and she is literally grinding her naked body on you, then that is the last thing you will think of.
This is an absurd discussion. You are in control of your own body. You don't black out and wake up a rapist. You consciously make a decision to give in to whatever drives you have.
I don't care if you haven't had sex in 20 years and miss universe is grinding on you. If you have sex with her without her consent, it is your fault, and you are a rapist.
On August 23 2012 18:57 Thylacine wrote: LOL so in Sweden it's only rape if the vagina is fucked? Awesome. I can finally bang that chick in school without going to prison.Just gotta fuck her ass instead then oO
It that is true, then your own ass is at risk too! Watch out! LOL
sweden is now the most dangerous country Rape is non consensual sexual acts, you need a penetration tho else its a sexual assault. You can be raped as a male, so I don't see why vagina should be in the definition ~~
On August 23 2012 18:57 Thylacine wrote: LOL so in Sweden it's only rape if the vagina is fucked? Awesome. I can finally bang that chick in school without going to prison.Just gotta fuck her ass instead then oO
It that is true, then your own ass is at risk too! Watch out! LOL
EPT
