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United States41979 Posts
On August 23 2012 16:06 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 15:51 HawaiianPig wrote:
In Canada, the crime of rape has been abolished and replaced with the crime of "Sexual assault" (sections 271-273 of the Criminal Code).
This was done in 1983, because parliament wanted to convey that sexual assault was a crime of violence as opposed to a crime of sex and thought this was a better way to describe it. In this same reform, a lot of sexist provisions (such as spousal immunity) were abolished.
The actus reus of sexual assault has three elements: (i) intentional touching that is of a (ii) sexual nature done (iii) without consent.
Intentional in this context refers to "general intent" which refers to voluntariness and capacity. This is a requirement of practically all crimes. (...and is often the basis of insanity/intoxication defences. For reference, section 33.1 states that self induced intoxication is no defence).
Of a sexual nature is determined by the courts using a "totality of the circumstances" approach. It must be kept in mind that sexual assault is a crime of violence and not sex. Thus, sexual gratification is not required. Instead, the focus is on the sexual integrity and autonomy of the complainant. All of this is judged on an objective standard; the question is whether or not a reasonable person, as determined by the courts, would see the touching as sexual in nature.
The third element, without consent, is defined very precisely by the Canadian Criminal Code (273.1(1)). Consent is subjective, meaning the court must establish what was the internal state of mind of the complainant when the touching occured. Consent must be coninuous and apparent. You cannot consent in advance. Thus, in Canada, you cannot consent to anything while unconscious. Additionally, consent cannot be obtained through fraud/misrepresentation (i.e. lying about STDs).
The mens rea (fault requirement) involves the knowledge or willful blindness of the lack of consent of the complainant or recklessness in ascertaining that consent.
There you go. Problem with this definition of consent is that according to it, I've been raped by my girlfriend several times. Since I can't give consent in advance, whenever she wakes me up in a sexual fashion, my unconscious, non consenting self has been raped. If I wanted to get back at her for some unrelated slight, I could press charges. I would get laughed out of court, of course. If I was a woman my chances would be considerably better though. A guy in the other thread linked a case where a man got sued by his ex for rubbing his pee pee on her lips for a few seconds until she woke up and told him to knock it off. Point is, in any judicial process some level of interpretation and filtering through societal Norms will take place. The exercise of law is far from scientific in most cases. Even a relatively straightforward crime like murder is hard to establish due to the difficulty in ascertaining the defendants motives, state of mind, etc. One battered spouse can get off for the same series of actions that result In a conviction for another. So what do I think? I think we can narrow it down pretty far, but our definitions alone will never be enough. You need look no further than the inadequate description of "consent" which I just pointed out the flaws in to see that definitions alone do not suffice in this area.
By the British definition there is a "reasonable belief that consent has been given". If you are in a sexual relationship with your partner and they have consented to the act in prior discussion then you could reasonably believe that they consented to it at the time, despite them being unable to directly consent. The law isn't trying to trap you.
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I love how in the UK it has to be a penis doing the raping... so women can't be rapists?
Oh Zahir seems to have addressed that already.
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As a woman reading through all six pages of this, I am disgusted by a few posts in this thread, and my faith in humanity is restored by many others.
What is clear, though, is a bunch of guys discussing what rape actually is on a video game forum is a bit of a social experiment in itself.
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I find it funny the people discussing in this thread is like 99.9% men (including me). And most men decide what is and what is not.
Maybe we should let the women in and have a say in this aswell. Just saying ^^
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What is rape? Baby don't hurt her... Don't hurt her... No more.
User was warned for this post
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United States41979 Posts
On August 23 2012 21:51 Ludwigvan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:43 Grumbels wrote:On August 23 2012 21:39 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 23 2012 21:25 Grumbels wrote:
Some people think that if you get a girl drunk and then take her home and have sex with her when she passes out then it's not rape. Or if she agrees to kissing and touching before. Or if she was flirting with you. Or if she agreed to sex before, but not this time. Or if she had an orgasm during being raped (strangely this happens). Or if she gets pregnant after rape. Or if she is not emotionally broken afterwards. Or if she didn't struggle against the rapist during the rape. Or if she was wearing seductive/revealing clothing. Or if she was "asking for it". Or if she agreed to go to some party and "should have known" what would happen.
No person with good intentions needs ever worry about accidentally raping a girl, that's just ridiculous. This does not mean that all forms of rape have equal consequences, are equally destructive and equally horrible. But they are all bad and that should be the first step. There is no difference between rape and 'rape-rape' and legitimate rape is a ridiculous combination of words. I don't agree. I am 6 feet and 3 inches and sarcastic. Is it easy for me to see if someone is scared of me? No. Do people tell me if they don't agree? No, they are often afraid, if they see me and don't know me. How should I know, if nobody tells me? It's something that I learned over a long period thinking about how people see me. The intention alone is really not always enough. In my case it is a lot of experience too. It's just so hard to understand what impression people get of you. I am convinced that it can happen, that you later realize, that you raped a girl. Maybe you misinterpreted her not willing as lust. Not every girl will scream as shit and beat you. Some might think: "I have no chance anyway, so don't defend, just wait until its over." Well-intentioned is the opposite of good. XD I hope you're not serious. Please give me a scenario where you think this could happen. Why wouldn't (or shouldn't) I be serious? Humans don't act on their reason only, but on their instincts. So, if you are totally overthrown by your lust, then you might not be able to reason enough. If you smoked weed and had this amazing idea that you then write a note of. The next day you wake up and read it and think, that this is horribly stupid. Lust can change your sense of reality also. Not just like the drug, obv. different. But, you know what I mean. Or, have you ever heard someone say "I only see tits, when I go out." in the summer? After wanking, this will often times get a bit reduced.
If you get overwhelmed by lust and stop being able to make rational decisions then you should consider voluntary commitment to a mental institution for the protection of yourself and those around you. Leave the world to the people who are in control of their actions.
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The problem is not defining what rape is, is proving if it was rape or not
edit: kinda like proving that someone knew the vehicle they owned was stolen, you have to rely on some non-conclusive evidence and statements by people that are clearly biased(the guy and the girl) on most cases
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United States41979 Posts
On August 23 2012 22:18 ShadeR wrote:
Asking can i fuck you? Is a good way of killing whatever possible mood there might have been, =/
Raping women is also a mood killer.
Are you really objecting to getting consent on the grounds that it may damage the mood? Sort out your priorities.
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On August 23 2012 23:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:51 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 23 2012 21:43 Grumbels wrote:On August 23 2012 21:39 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 23 2012 21:25 Grumbels wrote:
Some people think that if you get a girl drunk and then take her home and have sex with her when she passes out then it's not rape. Or if she agrees to kissing and touching before. Or if she was flirting with you. Or if she agreed to sex before, but not this time. Or if she had an orgasm during being raped (strangely this happens). Or if she gets pregnant after rape. Or if she is not emotionally broken afterwards. Or if she didn't struggle against the rapist during the rape. Or if she was wearing seductive/revealing clothing. Or if she was "asking for it". Or if she agreed to go to some party and "should have known" what would happen.
No person with good intentions needs ever worry about accidentally raping a girl, that's just ridiculous. This does not mean that all forms of rape have equal consequences, are equally destructive and equally horrible. But they are all bad and that should be the first step. There is no difference between rape and 'rape-rape' and legitimate rape is a ridiculous combination of words. I don't agree. I am 6 feet and 3 inches and sarcastic. Is it easy for me to see if someone is scared of me? No. Do people tell me if they don't agree? No, they are often afraid, if they see me and don't know me. How should I know, if nobody tells me? It's something that I learned over a long period thinking about how people see me. The intention alone is really not always enough. In my case it is a lot of experience too. It's just so hard to understand what impression people get of you. I am convinced that it can happen, that you later realize, that you raped a girl. Maybe you misinterpreted her not willing as lust. Not every girl will scream as shit and beat you. Some might think: "I have no chance anyway, so don't defend, just wait until its over." Well-intentioned is the opposite of good. XD I hope you're not serious. Please give me a scenario where you think this could happen. Why wouldn't (or shouldn't) I be serious? Humans don't act on their reason only, but on their instincts. So, if you are totally overthrown by your lust, then you might not be able to reason enough. If you smoked weed and had this amazing idea that you then write a note of. The next day you wake up and read it and think, that this is horribly stupid. Lust can change your sense of reality also. Not just like the drug, obv. different. But, you know what I mean. Or, have you ever heard someone say "I only see tits, when I go out." in the summer? After wanking, this will often times get a bit reduced. If you get overwhelmed by lust and stop being able to make rational decisions then you should consider voluntary commitment to a mental institution for the protection of yourself and those around you. Leave the world to the people who are in control of their actions.
Imagine arguing that in court... "Your honor, I was just walking down the street and she was wearing this skirt and I just became overcome with lust... I ripped her skirt off and proceeded to have sex with her. Lust is the guilty one here, not me!"
On August 23 2012 23:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 22:18 ShadeR wrote:
Asking can i fuck you? Is a good way of killing whatever possible mood there might have been, =/ Raping women is also a mood killer. Are you really objecting to getting consent on the grounds that it may damage the mood? Sort out your priorities.
It isn't very hard to see if a girl wants sex... They have massive amounts of signs that you can easily sift through. That and usually they're pulling at your clothes... If the girl is laying there and you're fucking her and she has no expression, she probably didn't want to have sex to begin with lol. This isn't rocket science, its sex.
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On August 23 2012 21:57 Ludwigvan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 21:55 mcc wrote:On August 23 2012 21:39 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 23 2012 21:25 Grumbels wrote:
Some people think that if you get a girl drunk and then take her home and have sex with her when she passes out then it's not rape. Or if she agrees to kissing and touching before. Or if she was flirting with you. Or if she agreed to sex before, but not this time. Or if she had an orgasm during being raped (strangely this happens). Or if she gets pregnant after rape. Or if she is not emotionally broken afterwards. Or if she didn't struggle against the rapist during the rape. Or if she was wearing seductive/revealing clothing. Or if she was "asking for it". Or if she agreed to go to some party and "should have known" what would happen.
No person with good intentions needs ever worry about accidentally raping a girl, that's just ridiculous. This does not mean that all forms of rape have equal consequences, are equally destructive and equally horrible. But they are all bad and that should be the first step. There is no difference between rape and 'rape-rape' and legitimate rape is a ridiculous combination of words. I don't agree. I am 6 feet and 3 inches and sarcastic. Is it easy for me to see if someone is scared of me? No. Do people tell me if they don't agree? No, they are often afraid, if they see me and don't know me. How should I know, if nobody tells me? It's something that I learned over a long period thinking about how people see me. The intention alone is really not always enough. In my case it is a lot of experience too. It's just so hard to understand what impression people get of you. I am convinced that it can happen, that you later realize, that you raped a girl. Maybe you misinterpreted her not willing as lust. Not every girl will scream as shit and beat you. Some might think: "I have no chance anyway, so don't defend, just wait until its over." Well-intentioned is the opposite of good. XD Then maybe you should explicitly make sure that she actually wants sex instead of relying on your guessing if you have such trouble. I don't rely on guessing. I ask, if I don't know them. Like Jimmy Carr tells me to. ^^
How then can this "I am convinced that it can happen, that you later realize, that you raped a girl." happen ? Because "having good intentions" as he puts it includes asking when not sure.
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Lol, I guess being lusty is like doing PCP?
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On August 23 2012 23:03 Waterflow wrote:
I find it funny the people discussing in this thread is like 100% men (including me). And most men decide what is and what is not.
Maybe we should let the women in and have a say in this aswell. Just saying ^^
Alright. I've never been raped.
Have I had close calls? Yes.
Drunk guys can be like animals.
Even non-drunk guys who think when you're saying "no", you're being "cute".
Here's what it is:
I don't give a shit what I'm wearing,
how drunk I am,
what "signs" you think I gave you -
if I say "no", you fucking listen.
If you touch me and I pull away, you stop.
There is nothing I can do that makes you unaccountable for your behavior.
You are not animals, you are people - you know right from wrong.
Only 15% of sexual assaults are even reported to police in my country (Australia) - an even smaller percentage make it to trial.
Just don't be assholes. Pretty simple.
Back to Starcraft.
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On August 23 2012 23:17 SunsetSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:03 Waterflow wrote:
I find it funny the people discussing in this thread is like 100% men (including me). And most men decide what is and what is not.
Maybe we should let the women in and have a say in this aswell. Just saying ^^ Alright. I've never been raped. Have I had close calls? Yes. Drunk guys can be like animals. Even non-drunk guys who think when you're saying "no", you're being "cute". Here's what it is: I don't give a shit what I'm wearing, how drunk I am, what "signs" you think I gave you - if I say "no", you fucking listen. If you touch me and I pull away, you stop. There is nothing I can do that makes you unaccountable for your behavior. You are not animals, you are people - you know right from wrong. Only 15% of sexual assaults are even reported to police in my country (Australia) - an even smaller percentage make it to trial. Just don't be assholes. Pretty simple. Back to Starcraft.
I was tempted to troll but honestly this is the most simple answer ^^ A girl doesn't say no if she wants to have sex, she's not like acting out a rape scene screaming no and you begin to rip her clothes off, that ISNT foreplay ^^ The golden rule imo is start, she says no you go "common" and if she says no again you go "well that's that" and leave lol. Been dating for 4 years with my GF so never really had that trouble but that's what I would think appropriate.
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On August 23 2012 23:20 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
...The golden rule imo is start, she says no you go "common"...
No, see, if she says no ONCE, you stop. Seriously. WTF.
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On August 23 2012 23:17 SunsetSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:03 Waterflow wrote:
I find it funny the people discussing in this thread is like 100% men (including me). And most men decide what is and what is not.
Maybe we should let the women in and have a say in this aswell. Just saying ^^ Alright. I've never been raped. Have I had close calls? Yes. Drunk guys can be like animals. Even non-drunk guys who think when you're saying "no", you're being "cute". Here's what it is: I don't give a shit what I'm wearing, how drunk I am, what "signs" you think I gave you - if I say "no", you fucking listen. If you touch me and I pull away, you stop. There is nothing I can do that makes you unaccountable for your behavior. You are not animals, you are people - you know right from wrong. Only 15% of sexual assaults are even reported to police in my country (Australia) - an even smaller percentage make it to trial. Just don't be assholes. Pretty simple. Back to Starcraft.
Hi SunsetSC2! Nice to find a girl here in the forums.
Thanks for bringing it up. I find it disturbing how some people would even claim that women deserve to be raped because they dress slutty or something to that effect.
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United States41979 Posts
On August 23 2012 23:27 SunsetSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:20 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
...The golden rule imo is start, she says no you go "common"... No, see, if she says no ONCE, you stop. Seriously. WTF.
I think what he was trying to say was that when they say "no" he stops, briefly pleads for sex and if they don't change their mind he leaves. I don't think he meant that he was thrusting during the "come on, please?" phase.
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On August 23 2012 23:27 SunsetSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:20 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
...The golden rule imo is start, she says no you go "common"... No, see, if she says no ONCE, you stop. Seriously. WTF.
Yeah...that is rather disturbing Sex is not something to be taken lightly. I can understand if you want to hang out with a friend and if they say "no," you "go common" since there is much less harm involved but with sex, god no.
On August 23 2012 23:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:27 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:20 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
...The golden rule imo is start, she says no you go "common"... No, see, if she says no ONCE, you stop. Seriously. WTF. I think what he was trying to say was that when they say "no" he stops, briefly pleads for sex and if they don't change their mind he leaves. I don't think he meant that he was thrusting during the "come on, please?" phase.
When a guy tries to pull that off with me, it is pretty annoying. Besides, having sex with someone who said no the first time and then yes the second or third is playing with fire if you ask me (though it seems rather unlikely for the situation to simply go that way) and adding pressure when someone refuses is also no good.
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I'd say anyone who has a mom that he loves should think about respecting women more.
I wouldn't be able to look my mother in the eyes if i was a douche like that.
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On August 23 2012 23:27 SunsetSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:20 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
...The golden rule imo is start, she says no you go "common"... No, see, if she says no ONCE, you stop. Seriously. WTF.
You're kind of missing the second part where he says that you drop it after the second no. Theres not too much fault you can assign for double checking, the important part is that they aren't being belligerent with their advances, his golden rule is one that not enough people follow, too many people continue the advances in a more belligerent fashion.
Now, I'm gonna go do some research on sexual assault and rape legislation and try to come up with a more generally informed opinion on the topic and any concerns I may have, I'll be back shortly. <3
Now, skimming through some of the US' definitions of rape most of it seems fairly straightforward, generally if someone forces sexual relations through physical, mental or emotional means it tends to constitute rape.
What I'm curious about is how consent works, such as factors that might lead to a loss of the ability to give consent. Gonna do some more research into that particular facet...
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On August 23 2012 23:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:27 SunsetSC2 wrote:On August 23 2012 23:20 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
...The golden rule imo is start, she says no you go "common"... No, see, if she says no ONCE, you stop. Seriously. WTF. I think what he was trying to say was that when they say "no" he stops, briefly pleads for sex and if they don't change their mind he leaves. I don't think he meant that he was thrusting during the "come on, please?" phase.
One "no" is sufficient, regardless of circumstance. Seriously.
It's difficult enough when a guy is all over you and you want them to stop to tell them no even once - men are bigger and more intimidating than us, we're in a vulnerable physical position.
Any time a woman says no should be respected.
Maybe she just wants to wait? Who knows.
What matters is you fucking stop.
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EPT
