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On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:24 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:19 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:17 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You said that the way to avoid being raped was to allow the threat of rape to strip you of your liberties. Being safe rather than sorry. Guess how many times I've been forced to penetrate (I'm male). I won't bother with the guessing, 0! Because I don't make mistakes regarding who I associate with. Thus, I don't suffer the negative consequences. I walk home drunk by myself, regardless of how many times/people ask if they can help. So women who find themselves in any position in which they are vulnerable with a man have made a mistake? Rapists. Do. Not. Wear. Labels. Around 6% of college men will, in anonymous surveys, willingly admit to being rapists. You are advocating that women adopt a systematic policy of non interaction with men and those that don't have neglected their personal safety regarding rape. You cannot strip away the freedom of half of the population like that. Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms. Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE" You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:24 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:19 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:17 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You said that the way to avoid being raped was to allow the threat of rape to strip you of your liberties. Being safe rather than sorry. Guess how many times I've been forced to penetrate (I'm male). I won't bother with the guessing, 0! Because I don't make mistakes regarding who I associate with. Thus, I don't suffer the negative consequences. I walk home drunk by myself, regardless of how many times/people ask if they can help. So women who find themselves in any position in which they are vulnerable with a man have made a mistake? Rapists. Do. Not. Wear. Labels. Around 6% of college men will, in anonymous surveys, willingly admit to being rapists. You are advocating that women adopt a systematic policy of non interaction with men and those that don't have neglected their personal safety regarding rape. You cannot strip away the freedom of half of the population like that. Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms. Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever.
If you avoid everyone who has shitty parents you will never have the chance to meet some really good people.
It's really cool of you to actually believe that the son bears the inequity of the father though 
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On August 25 2012 03:57 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:24 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:19 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
Being safe rather than sorry. Guess how many times I've been forced to penetrate (I'm male).
I won't bother with the guessing, 0! Because I don't make mistakes regarding who I associate with. Thus, I don't suffer the negative consequences. I walk home drunk by myself, regardless of how many times/people ask if they can help. So women who find themselves in any position in which they are vulnerable with a man have made a mistake? Rapists. Do. Not. Wear. Labels. Around 6% of college men will, in anonymous surveys, willingly admit to being rapists. You are advocating that women adopt a systematic policy of non interaction with men and those that don't have neglected their personal safety regarding rape. You cannot strip away the freedom of half of the population like that. Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms. Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE" You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:24 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:19 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
Being safe rather than sorry. Guess how many times I've been forced to penetrate (I'm male).
I won't bother with the guessing, 0! Because I don't make mistakes regarding who I associate with. Thus, I don't suffer the negative consequences. I walk home drunk by myself, regardless of how many times/people ask if they can help. So women who find themselves in any position in which they are vulnerable with a man have made a mistake? Rapists. Do. Not. Wear. Labels. Around 6% of college men will, in anonymous surveys, willingly admit to being rapists. You are advocating that women adopt a systematic policy of non interaction with men and those that don't have neglected their personal safety regarding rape. You cannot strip away the freedom of half of the population like that. Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms. Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. If you avoid everyone who has shitty parents you will never have the chance to meet some really good people. It's really cool of you to actually believe that the son bears the inequity of the father though
There's definitely a correlation. We are products of our environment. But you did miss the point which I already replied to.
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On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:24 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
So women who find themselves in any position in which they are vulnerable with a man have made a mistake? Rapists. Do. Not. Wear. Labels. Around 6% of college men will, in anonymous surveys, willingly admit to being rapists. You are advocating that women adopt a systematic policy of non interaction with men and those that don't have neglected their personal safety regarding rape. You cannot strip away the freedom of half of the population like that. Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms. Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE" You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:24 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
So women who find themselves in any position in which they are vulnerable with a man have made a mistake? Rapists. Do. Not. Wear. Labels. Around 6% of college men will, in anonymous surveys, willingly admit to being rapists. You are advocating that women adopt a systematic policy of non interaction with men and those that don't have neglected their personal safety regarding rape. You cannot strip away the freedom of half of the population like that. Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms. Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST."
Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact.
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On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms.
Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE" You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:On August 25 2012 03:29 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
Not half the populace, all of it. 100% of people who drive should wear seatbelts. 100% of people who are sexually active should wear condoms.
Standard safety procedure stuff. And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:36 Zoesan wrote:
I think the point he's trying to make is more "be careful around strangers". They're not always strangers >< In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact.
I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at.
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On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:
[quote]
They're not always strangers ><
In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE" You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
And 100% of the population should not interact with the other sex? That seems like a pretty bad solution to the problem. There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt. You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself. On August 25 2012 03:37 Elsid wrote:
[quote]
They're not always strangers ><
In most cases they aren't. Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at.
And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits?
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On August 25 2012 04:00 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt.
You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself.
[quote]
Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE" You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt.
You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself.
[quote]
Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at. And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits?
Are you actually saying it would be difficult to try to find out a guy's sexual habits? Especially if you're his friend?
I suppose we are being mostly hypothetical but holy cow that's pushing it.
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On August 25 2012 04:00 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt.
You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself.
[quote]
Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE" You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:38 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
There is no solution. Only precautions you can take to avoid stuff. Do you feel bad for people who don't wear seatbelts and become quadriplegic? I don't, wear your seatbelt.
You said, "100% of the population should not interact with the other sex". That's not exactly what I proposed. I'm saying that if you're piss-ass drunk and you let a stranger walk you home, into your house, up to your bed, and they force your penis inside their vagina, then you brought it upon yourself.
[quote]
Don't become friends with rapists. 100% of my friends are not rapists. Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at. And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits?
From the wiki,
By the time Bernardo attended University of Toronto Scarborough, he had developed dark sexual fantasies, enjoyed humiliating women in public and beating up the women he dated
While there might be exceptions where a totally benign individual suddenly turns to rape, I think in most cases there are signs, given that someone is paying attention.
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On August 25 2012 04:04 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:00 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:
[quote]
Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE"
You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at. And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits? From the wiki, Show nested quote +By the time Bernardo attended University of Toronto Scarborough, he had developed dark sexual fantasies, enjoyed humiliating women in public and beating up the women he dated While there might be exceptions where a totally benign individual suddenly turns to rape, I think in most cases there are signs, given that someone is paying attention.
I never remember stating that there was no signs, or that no one knew. I never wrote/typed that at all. What I am contesting however is the assertion that everyone who knew him/felt comfortable enough around him knew that he was a rapist.
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On August 25 2012 04:02 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:00 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:
[quote]
Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE"
You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at. And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits? Are you actually saying it would be difficult to try to find out a guy's sexual habits? Especially if you're his friend? I suppose we are being mostly hypothetical but holy cow that's pushing it.
I can imagine the conversation
"Hey man, so I was just wondering, if, uh... your in to masochistic sex or anything?"
"O yeah totally man"
Thats exactly how it would happen.
ok no more posting in this thread for me.
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On August 25 2012 04:04 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:00 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:40 Elsid wrote:
[quote]
Because of course rapists have brands on their foreheads that read "I RAPE PEOPLE"
You're being utterly absurd. Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people? There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations. On August 25 2012 03:41 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Majority of rape isn't done by strangers, the situation I described was acquaintance rape. Also rapists don't wear labels, chances are reasonably good one of your friends is a rapist. So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at. And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits? From the wiki, Show nested quote +By the time Bernardo attended University of Toronto Scarborough, he had developed dark sexual fantasies, enjoyed humiliating women in public and beating up the women he dated While there might be exceptions where a totally benign individual suddenly turns to rape, I think in most cases there are signs, given that someone is paying attention.
If a woman trusts someone to walk her home, she would not have noticed any of these supposed signs. I don't understand the point of this discussion. Are these women all just dumb bitches who should have paid better attention? Serves them right to get raped, right?
Edit: This was actually a pretty good thread before. 
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On August 25 2012 03:40 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:03 HardlyNever wrote:
I've thought about whether I should post this story here, but the discussion seems to be stuck on this idea of what is rape in the guy's mind and what it is in the girl's mind, and this is very relevant to that. Maybe someone will learn a thing or two about sex and rape from a female perspective, because I know I did back when this happened.
Back when I was in college I dated this girl who had a pretty screwed up sexual past. Namely, she was molested at a fairly young age by someone she trusted, and raped at the age of 13 by someone else she trusted (friend of the family). Needless to say she had some sexual issues. Anyhow, when we first started dating there came a moment where she told me a story about something that had happened pretty recently to her (how recently I couldn't say exactly, it sounded like a month to 2 months prior to us dating). She had been out with her friends at the local bars (I went to a college that was generally listed in the top 10 party schools of the Princeton review) and basically picked up a guy at a bar. Who did the initiating or showing of interest first, I don't know. So she ends up bringing the guy back to her apartment. Somewhere along the way, either walking back or getting to her apt (I don't honestly know exactly when) she decides she does not want to have sex with this guy. It might have been even when they were in bed (additionally, they were both really drunk). Well at that point, the guy wasn't taking no for an answer, and raped her. Or whatever exactly happened (I never got the gruesome details), she FELT raped. Genuinely raped.
Now me being a young undergrad at the time (and not understanding the full extent to which this hurt her), did the thing most of you are probably thinking. I said it was her fault, she put herself in that situation, and basically said the guy had no way to know what you were thinking/feeling (pretty standard blame the victim). She never reported it, and she said my response/thinking was basically why (not MINE specifically, but that line of reasoning). No one would believe her, everyone would say it was her fault, etc. That said, I didn't really understand how much this hurt her until months and months later. This girl still had (and probably still does) flashbacks to that moment, which reduced her to tears. She felt raped, and in her mind she was raped. And this is from a girl that knows what "genuine (w/e that means)" rape feels like.
I learned a lot about the idea of "consent" and really being able to tell when a girl was into it and when she wasn't from being with her. I have no idea if this has any bearing on "legal" rape, but I know that women can feel raped even when an hour prior they were inviting it into their house.
I think that sort of story (which probably is pretty common across college campuses) is why rape laws are so hard to nail down. Thanks for sharing this story. I have been in a similar situation, not taking the girl seriously enough is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I genuinely feel ashamed that my one of my first reactions was to blame her for being naive, rather than to show the support and compasion she needed. I was 16 and not prepared, but this is not much of an excuse. One thing that troubles me about your post is that you continually emphasize that she felt raped. Implying that in some way the rape was not real. From the sound of your post she actually WAS raped by someone who was denied something that he anticipated. Maybe you can elaborate.
What I meant by her FEELING raped was that, regardless of the actual legality of the issue, she felt like she had been raped. I wasn't there, obviously, so I can't say with 100% certainty that she was raped. She shared her apt with 3 other people, who I assume (but don't know) at least 1 or 2 were there. If she REALLY kicked and screamed and fought, you would think they would have come to investigate (but I don't know if they were there for sure, this was years and years ago).
But yeah, I'm pretty sure she was actually raped(i.e. she actively voiced her non-consent, but the guy did it anyway).
I'm not trying to muddy the waters too much, but with this particular girl, she constantly put herself in situations like this, despite her past experiences. For instance, she meet a guy she knew only from online interactions at a hotel room, in their first meeting. Like I said, she has some pretty screwed up sexual issues.
The best I could liken her particular behavior to is walking into one of the worst parts of town at 2 am with $1000 hanging out of your pocket. Do you DESERVE to get robbed? No, you haven't done anything legally or morally wrong. Are you going to get robbed? Yeah, probably.
It's situations like that that make rape cases really difficult sometimes, I think.
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On August 25 2012 04:07 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:04 farvacola wrote:On August 25 2012 04:00 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:42 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
Anything worth doing isn't easy. You want to be spoonfed information about people like whether or not they rape people?
There are different amounts of trust you should put in people. I trust my friends because I know they won't rape me. They've passed their rites. Strangers I don't trust, no matter how sexy/muscular they are. I've never been in a situation where consent could be misconstrued because I don't put myself in those situations.
[quote]
So it's impossible to tell before a rape is occurring whether someone is a rapist? I suppose it's also impossible to tell before you're being murdered that the person you're murdering might have some tendency to murder people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_BernardoWhen the detectives asked Bernardo why he thought he was being investigated for the rapes, he admitted that he did resemble the composite. The detectives concluded that such a well-educated, well-adjusted, congenial young man could not be responsible for the vicious crimes. Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at. And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits? From the wiki, By the time Bernardo attended University of Toronto Scarborough, he had developed dark sexual fantasies, enjoyed humiliating women in public and beating up the women he dated While there might be exceptions where a totally benign individual suddenly turns to rape, I think in most cases there are signs, given that someone is paying attention. If a woman trusts someone to walk her home, she would not have noticed any of these supposed signs. I don't understand the point of this discussion. Are these women all just dumb bitches who should have paid better attention? Serves them right to get raped, right?
Don't do that. Then you won't get raped.
On the issue of, "Are these women all just dumb bitches who should have paid better attention? Serves them right to get raped, right?", you are close but not quite there. For starters, it should be people, not women. And for enders, no it doesn't serve them right. It's a tragedy but as much as one as someone being injured from a car accident while not wearing their seatbelt yadda yadda.
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On August 25 2012 03:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:02 gaheris wrote:On August 25 2012 02:54 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 02:46 Zoesan wrote:On August 25 2012 02:25 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 02:20 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:13 NicolBolas wrote:I can't speak to how the legal system works outside of the US. But here, if there is truly "no evidence of rape" outside of testimony of the victim, then prosecutors generally can't prosecute. Swedish courts routinely allow rape cases that amount to nothing more than he said, she said. There are guidelines to find the guy guilty if the woman's story is "believable". "potential consent"? What does that even mean? It means it signals they are interested in getting sex. It doesn't specify how or with whom, but the general interest in it is the first step in getting there. So is leaving your house. All of these things that people claim women do to cause their own rapes miss the point that they did not consent. Their only purpose is to shift blame for what happened onto the alleged victim. I'm sorry, but this is not the case. The point the reasonable people here are trying to make, is to establish IF rape happened in a muddled case. Then the small things are relevant, even if you don't like it. Dressing sexy doesn't entitle a male to anything and it sure as hell doesn't shift the blame to the woman. But it may be a helpful tool to tell a golddigger from a woman who was actually raped... And in that case it would help every real rape victim by making the lane between the two clearer. Imagine the following hypothetical. A woman goes out clubbing, gets horribly drunk and agrees to let an acquaintance escort her home, making it clear to him that she doesn't want anything to happen. She passes out and wakes up during the night to find him raping her. Horrified and confused, too stunned by this violation and the implications of it (this guy doesn't respect consent and he's in my house, he could do literally anything to me), she doesn't know what to do other than lie there until she passes out again. The next morning she wakes up and reports the rape to the police. The rapist is arrested and confirms sex happens but insists it was consensual. There were no witnesses. In court it becomes a case of his word against hers and the defence lawyer uses her actions, in allowing him to escort her home and in being in the club in the first place, to successfully argue that clearly she had consented to the sex and simply regretted it. The law then declares that in the eyes of societal justice the reason that she was raped was because she consented to it in their eyes and their conclusion is based upon the fact that she went out to the club and trusted a male acquaintance. How is this not telling the victim that this horrifying thing that happened to them wasn't wrong because of their actions, that it is their fault? how about: allowing him to escort her home and in being in the club in the first place, to successfully argue that clearly (it was reasonably possible from a third partys perspective that) she had consented to the sex and simply regretted it. The law then declares that in the eyes of societal justice she may have been raped but in the eyes of justice convicting the innocent is far worse then letting the guilty go free If they have insufficient evidence to convict the rapist, ie no witnesses, no tearing and the like, then I don't see the problem with just stating that. Have the justice system inform the woman that she can proceed if she likes but they believe the case will be dismissed due to lack of evidence or whatever. A system where lawyers stand up in court and tell the world that although the victim insists that she did not consent to the sex she actually did because of actions that she did which a free person could reasonably be expected to do and which do not include consenting to sex is really, really fucked up. It is nothing more than exploiting residual sexism (what was she doing outside of the kitchen anyway?) and slut shaming in order to blame the victim. The only thing relevant to whether or not she consented to the sex was whether or not she consented to the sex.
This post is so bizarre. What kind of system are you talking about that is so unjust and sexist? One that has a defense lawyer? Would you prefer that the defense just take the woman's word for it and leave off speculating entirely? Would that finally be a courtroom free of "residual sexism"?
woman: "I did not do anything unreasonable, and I assure you that I was raped."
judge: "Cool! Case closed then. Let's go to lunch."
The job of the court is to investigate serious accusations like rape thoroughly and evenhandedly. It's not to take the accuser's word for it. That's not misogyny. It's standard courtroom procedure.
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On August 25 2012 04:12 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:07 Crushinator wrote:On August 25 2012 04:04 farvacola wrote:On August 25 2012 04:00 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:59 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:58 Elsid wrote:On August 25 2012 03:57 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 25 2012 03:50 Hnnngg wrote:On August 25 2012 03:47 KwarK wrote:[quote] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo[quote] Regarding one of the more prolific serial rapists and killers. But I guess the standard you hold the average woman to is higher than those of the detectives who deal with serial rapists as their job. His father was abusive and convicted of a crime. Big red flag. His mom was a slut. Big red flag. I wouldn't associate with that person, ever. The guy had bad parents and therefore you wouldn't associate with him? Shows what kind of person you are. I wouldn't associate with you, ever. You're missing the point. Immediately from his past he has warning signs that anyone could ask him about. "In October 1987, he met Karla Homolka.[5] They became sexually interested in each other almost immediately. Unlike the other girls he knew, she encouraged his sadistic sexual behaviour"^ Sign on his forehead: "STAY AWAY THIS FUCKER IS PROBABLY A RAPIST." Did you even read that wiki? She was also a criminal, serial killer to be exact. I wasn't saying about her, I particularly bolded the sadistic sexual behavior part for emphasis. That's the part to look at. And how do you propose that friends would know his exact sexual habits? From the wiki, By the time Bernardo attended University of Toronto Scarborough, he had developed dark sexual fantasies, enjoyed humiliating women in public and beating up the women he dated While there might be exceptions where a totally benign individual suddenly turns to rape, I think in most cases there are signs, given that someone is paying attention. If a woman trusts someone to walk her home, she would not have noticed any of these supposed signs. I don't understand the point of this discussion. Are these women all just dumb bitches who should have paid better attention? Serves them right to get raped, right? Don't do that. Then you won't get raped. On the issue of, " Are these women all just dumb bitches who should have paid better attention? Serves them right to get raped, right?", you are close but not quite there. For starters, it should be people, not women. And for enders, no it doesn't serve them right. It's a tragedy but as much as one as someone being injured from a car accident while not wearing their seatbelt yadda yadda.
Yeah man you're totally right , those people who died on 9/11 , total tools for going onto planes or being in towers. Like how could you take that risk knowing that it's possible for people to blow shit up? Those people who die in car crashes where a car crashes into them while they're wearing a seat belt , what were they thinking? going driving? are they fucking mad?
As previously stated you're being completely absurd.
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United States43203 Posts
On August 25 2012 04:09 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:40 Crushinator wrote:On August 25 2012 03:03 HardlyNever wrote:
I've thought about whether I should post this story here, but the discussion seems to be stuck on this idea of what is rape in the guy's mind and what it is in the girl's mind, and this is very relevant to that. Maybe someone will learn a thing or two about sex and rape from a female perspective, because I know I did back when this happened.
Back when I was in college I dated this girl who had a pretty screwed up sexual past. Namely, she was molested at a fairly young age by someone she trusted, and raped at the age of 13 by someone else she trusted (friend of the family). Needless to say she had some sexual issues. Anyhow, when we first started dating there came a moment where she told me a story about something that had happened pretty recently to her (how recently I couldn't say exactly, it sounded like a month to 2 months prior to us dating). She had been out with her friends at the local bars (I went to a college that was generally listed in the top 10 party schools of the Princeton review) and basically picked up a guy at a bar. Who did the initiating or showing of interest first, I don't know. So she ends up bringing the guy back to her apartment. Somewhere along the way, either walking back or getting to her apt (I don't honestly know exactly when) she decides she does not want to have sex with this guy. It might have been even when they were in bed (additionally, they were both really drunk). Well at that point, the guy wasn't taking no for an answer, and raped her. Or whatever exactly happened (I never got the gruesome details), she FELT raped. Genuinely raped.
Now me being a young undergrad at the time (and not understanding the full extent to which this hurt her), did the thing most of you are probably thinking. I said it was her fault, she put herself in that situation, and basically said the guy had no way to know what you were thinking/feeling (pretty standard blame the victim). She never reported it, and she said my response/thinking was basically why (not MINE specifically, but that line of reasoning). No one would believe her, everyone would say it was her fault, etc. That said, I didn't really understand how much this hurt her until months and months later. This girl still had (and probably still does) flashbacks to that moment, which reduced her to tears. She felt raped, and in her mind she was raped. And this is from a girl that knows what "genuine (w/e that means)" rape feels like.
I learned a lot about the idea of "consent" and really being able to tell when a girl was into it and when she wasn't from being with her. I have no idea if this has any bearing on "legal" rape, but I know that women can feel raped even when an hour prior they were inviting it into their house.
I think that sort of story (which probably is pretty common across college campuses) is why rape laws are so hard to nail down. Thanks for sharing this story. I have been in a similar situation, not taking the girl seriously enough is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I genuinely feel ashamed that my one of my first reactions was to blame her for being naive, rather than to show the support and compasion she needed. I was 16 and not prepared, but this is not much of an excuse. One thing that troubles me about your post is that you continually emphasize that she felt raped. Implying that in some way the rape was not real. From the sound of your post she actually WAS raped by someone who was denied something that he anticipated. Maybe you can elaborate. What I meant by her FEELING raped was that, regardless of the actual legality of the issue, she felt like she had been raped. I wasn't there, obviously, so I can't say with 100% certainty that she was raped. She shared her apt with 3 other people, who I assume (but don't know) at least 1 or 2 were there. If she REALLY kicked and screamed and fought, you would think they would have come to investigate (but I don't know if they were there for sure, this was years and years ago). But yeah, I'm pretty sure she was actually raped(i.e. she actively voiced her non-consent, but the guy did it anyway). I'm not trying to muddy the waters too much, but with this particular girl, she constantly put herself in situations like this, despite her past experiences. For instance, she meet a guy she knew only from online interactions at a hotel room, in their first meeting. Like I said, she has some pretty screwed up sexual issues. The best I could liken her particular behavior to is walking into one of the worst parts of town at 2 am with $1000 hanging out of your pocket. Do you DESERVE to get robbed? No, you haven't done anything legally or morally wrong. Are you going to get robbed? Yeah, probably. It's situations like that that make rape cases really difficult sometimes, I think.
I believe the kicking and screaming exist predominantly in the minds of men who buy into the idea of "legitimate rape". From what I've heard directly from victims, the normal response is shock and paralysing fear. A shattering of naive assumptions about the safe bubble you live in and a realisation of the true meaning of free will, that at any time anyone could, if they wanted, do anything to you. Not expressed with that kind of clarity but rather being felt in the form of crippling terror.
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United States43203 Posts
On August 25 2012 04:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:10 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:02 gaheris wrote:On August 25 2012 02:54 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 02:46 Zoesan wrote:On August 25 2012 02:25 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 02:20 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:13 NicolBolas wrote:I can't speak to how the legal system works outside of the US. But here, if there is truly "no evidence of rape" outside of testimony of the victim, then prosecutors generally can't prosecute. Swedish courts routinely allow rape cases that amount to nothing more than he said, she said. There are guidelines to find the guy guilty if the woman's story is "believable". "potential consent"? What does that even mean? It means it signals they are interested in getting sex. It doesn't specify how or with whom, but the general interest in it is the first step in getting there. So is leaving your house. All of these things that people claim women do to cause their own rapes miss the point that they did not consent. Their only purpose is to shift blame for what happened onto the alleged victim. I'm sorry, but this is not the case. The point the reasonable people here are trying to make, is to establish IF rape happened in a muddled case. Then the small things are relevant, even if you don't like it. Dressing sexy doesn't entitle a male to anything and it sure as hell doesn't shift the blame to the woman. But it may be a helpful tool to tell a golddigger from a woman who was actually raped... And in that case it would help every real rape victim by making the lane between the two clearer. Imagine the following hypothetical. A woman goes out clubbing, gets horribly drunk and agrees to let an acquaintance escort her home, making it clear to him that she doesn't want anything to happen. She passes out and wakes up during the night to find him raping her. Horrified and confused, too stunned by this violation and the implications of it (this guy doesn't respect consent and he's in my house, he could do literally anything to me), she doesn't know what to do other than lie there until she passes out again. The next morning she wakes up and reports the rape to the police. The rapist is arrested and confirms sex happens but insists it was consensual. There were no witnesses. In court it becomes a case of his word against hers and the defence lawyer uses her actions, in allowing him to escort her home and in being in the club in the first place, to successfully argue that clearly she had consented to the sex and simply regretted it. The law then declares that in the eyes of societal justice the reason that she was raped was because she consented to it in their eyes and their conclusion is based upon the fact that she went out to the club and trusted a male acquaintance. How is this not telling the victim that this horrifying thing that happened to them wasn't wrong because of their actions, that it is their fault? how about: allowing him to escort her home and in being in the club in the first place, to successfully argue that clearly (it was reasonably possible from a third partys perspective that) she had consented to the sex and simply regretted it. The law then declares that in the eyes of societal justice she may have been raped but in the eyes of justice convicting the innocent is far worse then letting the guilty go free If they have insufficient evidence to convict the rapist, ie no witnesses, no tearing and the like, then I don't see the problem with just stating that. Have the justice system inform the woman that she can proceed if she likes but they believe the case will be dismissed due to lack of evidence or whatever. A system where lawyers stand up in court and tell the world that although the victim insists that she did not consent to the sex she actually did because of actions that she did which a free person could reasonably be expected to do and which do not include consenting to sex is really, really fucked up. It is nothing more than exploiting residual sexism (what was she doing outside of the kitchen anyway?) and slut shaming in order to blame the victim. The only thing relevant to whether or not she consented to the sex was whether or not she consented to the sex. This post is so bizarre. What kind of system are you talking about that is so unjust and sexist? One that has a defense lawyer? Would you prefer that the defense just take the woman's word for it and leave off speculating entirely? Would that finally be a courtroom free of "residual sexism"? woman: "I did not do anything unreasonable, and I assure you that I was raped." judge: "Cool! Case closed then. Let's go to lunch." The job of the court is to investigate serious accusations like rape thoroughly and evenhandedly. It's not to take the accuser's word for it. That's not misogyny. It's standard courtroom procedure.
People keep repeating that I apparently want to see a courtroom where men are immediately locked up on nothing more than the testimony of their accuser. I do not and at no point have I expressed that view.
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On August 25 2012 04:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:10 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 03:02 gaheris wrote:On August 25 2012 02:54 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 02:46 Zoesan wrote:On August 25 2012 02:25 KwarK wrote:On August 25 2012 02:20 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:13 NicolBolas wrote:I can't speak to how the legal system works outside of the US. But here, if there is truly "no evidence of rape" outside of testimony of the victim, then prosecutors generally can't prosecute. Swedish courts routinely allow rape cases that amount to nothing more than he said, she said. There are guidelines to find the guy guilty if the woman's story is "believable". "potential consent"? What does that even mean? It means it signals they are interested in getting sex. It doesn't specify how or with whom, but the general interest in it is the first step in getting there. So is leaving your house. All of these things that people claim women do to cause their own rapes miss the point that they did not consent. Their only purpose is to shift blame for what happened onto the alleged victim. I'm sorry, but this is not the case. The point the reasonable people here are trying to make, is to establish IF rape happened in a muddled case. Then the small things are relevant, even if you don't like it. Dressing sexy doesn't entitle a male to anything and it sure as hell doesn't shift the blame to the woman. But it may be a helpful tool to tell a golddigger from a woman who was actually raped... And in that case it would help every real rape victim by making the lane between the two clearer. Imagine the following hypothetical. A woman goes out clubbing, gets horribly drunk and agrees to let an acquaintance escort her home, making it clear to him that she doesn't want anything to happen. She passes out and wakes up during the night to find him raping her. Horrified and confused, too stunned by this violation and the implications of it (this guy doesn't respect consent and he's in my house, he could do literally anything to me), she doesn't know what to do other than lie there until she passes out again. The next morning she wakes up and reports the rape to the police. The rapist is arrested and confirms sex happens but insists it was consensual. There were no witnesses. In court it becomes a case of his word against hers and the defence lawyer uses her actions, in allowing him to escort her home and in being in the club in the first place, to successfully argue that clearly she had consented to the sex and simply regretted it. The law then declares that in the eyes of societal justice the reason that she was raped was because she consented to it in their eyes and their conclusion is based upon the fact that she went out to the club and trusted a male acquaintance. How is this not telling the victim that this horrifying thing that happened to them wasn't wrong because of their actions, that it is their fault? how about: allowing him to escort her home and in being in the club in the first place, to successfully argue that clearly (it was reasonably possible from a third partys perspective that) she had consented to the sex and simply regretted it. The law then declares that in the eyes of societal justice she may have been raped but in the eyes of justice convicting the innocent is far worse then letting the guilty go free If they have insufficient evidence to convict the rapist, ie no witnesses, no tearing and the like, then I don't see the problem with just stating that. Have the justice system inform the woman that she can proceed if she likes but they believe the case will be dismissed due to lack of evidence or whatever. A system where lawyers stand up in court and tell the world that although the victim insists that she did not consent to the sex she actually did because of actions that she did which a free person could reasonably be expected to do and which do not include consenting to sex is really, really fucked up. It is nothing more than exploiting residual sexism (what was she doing outside of the kitchen anyway?) and slut shaming in order to blame the victim. The only thing relevant to whether or not she consented to the sex was whether or not she consented to the sex. This post is so bizarre. What kind of system are you talking about that is so unjust and sexist? One that has a defense lawyer? Would you prefer that the defense just take the woman's word for it and leave off speculating entirely? Would that finally be a courtroom free of "residual sexism"? woman: "I did not do anything unreasonable, and I assure you that I was raped." judge: "Cool! Case closed then. Let's go to lunch." The job of the court is to investigate serious accusations like rape thoroughly and evenhandedly. It's not to take the accuser's word for it. That's not misogyny. It's standard courtroom procedure.
What a ridiculous strawman. His point is that it is completely irrelevant if a person is promiscuous, it is completely irrelevant if the dress was sexy. Never, ever does it matter one bit. The only reason anyone would think it does, is because of misogynistic views about how women should act. The view that women in certain clothing are all sluts, and reasonable men could see this slutty behavior as consent to sex with everyone. It is not consent to sex, and reasonable men cannot see this as consent.
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On August 25 2012 04:09 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:40 Crushinator wrote:On August 25 2012 03:03 HardlyNever wrote:
I've thought about whether I should post this story here, but the discussion seems to be stuck on this idea of what is rape in the guy's mind and what it is in the girl's mind, and this is very relevant to that. Maybe someone will learn a thing or two about sex and rape from a female perspective, because I know I did back when this happened.
Back when I was in college I dated this girl who had a pretty screwed up sexual past. Namely, she was molested at a fairly young age by someone she trusted, and raped at the age of 13 by someone else she trusted (friend of the family). Needless to say she had some sexual issues. Anyhow, when we first started dating there came a moment where she told me a story about something that had happened pretty recently to her (how recently I couldn't say exactly, it sounded like a month to 2 months prior to us dating). She had been out with her friends at the local bars (I went to a college that was generally listed in the top 10 party schools of the Princeton review) and basically picked up a guy at a bar. Who did the initiating or showing of interest first, I don't know. So she ends up bringing the guy back to her apartment. Somewhere along the way, either walking back or getting to her apt (I don't honestly know exactly when) she decides she does not want to have sex with this guy. It might have been even when they were in bed (additionally, they were both really drunk). Well at that point, the guy wasn't taking no for an answer, and raped her. Or whatever exactly happened (I never got the gruesome details), she FELT raped. Genuinely raped.
Now me being a young undergrad at the time (and not understanding the full extent to which this hurt her), did the thing most of you are probably thinking. I said it was her fault, she put herself in that situation, and basically said the guy had no way to know what you were thinking/feeling (pretty standard blame the victim). She never reported it, and she said my response/thinking was basically why (not MINE specifically, but that line of reasoning). No one would believe her, everyone would say it was her fault, etc. That said, I didn't really understand how much this hurt her until months and months later. This girl still had (and probably still does) flashbacks to that moment, which reduced her to tears. She felt raped, and in her mind she was raped. And this is from a girl that knows what "genuine (w/e that means)" rape feels like.
I learned a lot about the idea of "consent" and really being able to tell when a girl was into it and when she wasn't from being with her. I have no idea if this has any bearing on "legal" rape, but I know that women can feel raped even when an hour prior they were inviting it into their house.
I think that sort of story (which probably is pretty common across college campuses) is why rape laws are so hard to nail down. Thanks for sharing this story. I have been in a similar situation, not taking the girl seriously enough is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I genuinely feel ashamed that my one of my first reactions was to blame her for being naive, rather than to show the support and compasion she needed. I was 16 and not prepared, but this is not much of an excuse. One thing that troubles me about your post is that you continually emphasize that she felt raped. Implying that in some way the rape was not real. From the sound of your post she actually WAS raped by someone who was denied something that he anticipated. Maybe you can elaborate. What I meant by her FEELING raped was that, regardless of the actual legality of the issue, she felt like she had been raped. I wasn't there, obviously, so I can't say with 100% certainty that she was raped. She shared her apt with 3 other people, who I assume (but don't know) at least 1 or 2 were there. If she REALLY kicked and screamed and fought, you would think they would have come to investigate (but I don't know if they were there for sure, this was years and years ago). But yeah, I'm pretty sure she was actually raped(i.e. she actively voiced her non-consent, but the guy did it anyway). I'm not trying to muddy the waters too much, but with this particular girl, she constantly put herself in situations like this, despite her past experiences. For instance, she meet a guy she knew only from online interactions at a hotel room, in their first meeting. Like I said, she has some pretty screwed up sexual issues. The best I could liken her particular behavior to is walking into one of the worst parts of town at 2 am with $1000 hanging out of your pocket. Do you DESERVE to get robbed? No, you haven't done anything legally or morally wrong. Are you going to get robbed? Yeah, probably. It's situations like that that make rape cases really difficult sometimes, I think.
Good story. I agree that these situations make rape cases a tough issue.
Everyone always says no means no, and I agree. When the victim is so paralyzed with fear that he or she can't even say no, things become regrettably complex. Only a complete cad and idiot would continue mauling a sexual partner who is lying there in catatonic horror. Unfortunately such people exist.
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On August 25 2012 04:09 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:40 Crushinator wrote:On August 25 2012 03:03 HardlyNever wrote:
I've thought about whether I should post this story here, but the discussion seems to be stuck on this idea of what is rape in the guy's mind and what it is in the girl's mind, and this is very relevant to that. Maybe someone will learn a thing or two about sex and rape from a female perspective, because I know I did back when this happened.
Back when I was in college I dated this girl who had a pretty screwed up sexual past. Namely, she was molested at a fairly young age by someone she trusted, and raped at the age of 13 by someone else she trusted (friend of the family). Needless to say she had some sexual issues. Anyhow, when we first started dating there came a moment where she told me a story about something that had happened pretty recently to her (how recently I couldn't say exactly, it sounded like a month to 2 months prior to us dating). She had been out with her friends at the local bars (I went to a college that was generally listed in the top 10 party schools of the Princeton review) and basically picked up a guy at a bar. Who did the initiating or showing of interest first, I don't know. So she ends up bringing the guy back to her apartment. Somewhere along the way, either walking back or getting to her apt (I don't honestly know exactly when) she decides she does not want to have sex with this guy. It might have been even when they were in bed (additionally, they were both really drunk). Well at that point, the guy wasn't taking no for an answer, and raped her. Or whatever exactly happened (I never got the gruesome details), she FELT raped. Genuinely raped.
Now me being a young undergrad at the time (and not understanding the full extent to which this hurt her), did the thing most of you are probably thinking. I said it was her fault, she put herself in that situation, and basically said the guy had no way to know what you were thinking/feeling (pretty standard blame the victim). She never reported it, and she said my response/thinking was basically why (not MINE specifically, but that line of reasoning). No one would believe her, everyone would say it was her fault, etc. That said, I didn't really understand how much this hurt her until months and months later. This girl still had (and probably still does) flashbacks to that moment, which reduced her to tears. She felt raped, and in her mind she was raped. And this is from a girl that knows what "genuine (w/e that means)" rape feels like.
I learned a lot about the idea of "consent" and really being able to tell when a girl was into it and when she wasn't from being with her. I have no idea if this has any bearing on "legal" rape, but I know that women can feel raped even when an hour prior they were inviting it into their house.
I think that sort of story (which probably is pretty common across college campuses) is why rape laws are so hard to nail down. Thanks for sharing this story. I have been in a similar situation, not taking the girl seriously enough is one of the biggest regrets of my life. I genuinely feel ashamed that my one of my first reactions was to blame her for being naive, rather than to show the support and compasion she needed. I was 16 and not prepared, but this is not much of an excuse. One thing that troubles me about your post is that you continually emphasize that she felt raped. Implying that in some way the rape was not real. From the sound of your post she actually WAS raped by someone who was denied something that he anticipated. Maybe you can elaborate. What I meant by her FEELING raped was that, regardless of the actual legality of the issue, she felt like she had been raped. I wasn't there, obviously, so I can't say with 100% certainty that she was raped. She shared her apt with 3 other people, who I assume (but don't know) at least 1 or 2 were there. If she REALLY kicked and screamed and fought, you would think they would have come to investigate (but I don't know if they were there for sure, this was years and years ago). But yeah, I'm pretty sure she was actually raped(i.e. she actively voiced her non-consent, but the guy did it anyway). I'm not trying to muddy the waters too much, but with this particular girl, she constantly put herself in situations like this, despite her past experiences. For instance, she meet a guy she knew only from online interactions at a hotel room, in their first meeting. Like I said, she has some pretty screwed up sexual issues. The best I could liken her particular behavior to is walking into one of the worst parts of town at 2 am with $1000 hanging out of your pocket. Do you DESERVE to get robbed? No, you haven't done anything legally or morally wrong. Are you going to get robbed? Yeah, probably. It's situations like that that make rape cases really difficult sometimes, I think.
I get where you are coming from. But I disagree that it makes rape cases more difficult. Some people do not take appropriate steps to avoid being victimized, but that makes them no less of a victim, and the perpetrator no less of a criminal.
Edit: Actually above this post Zahir does paint a picture of a difficult grey area in rape cases, nbot sure if you meant that though.
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Why are people continuing to respond to Hnnng after he has clearly stated that blaming the victim is entirely appropriate and justified? The guys a psychopath. Stop encouraging his trolling.
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EPT
