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On May 13 2012 08:24 Introvert wrote:
Why oh why do I read these threads... falsehoods and vitriol abound.
Maybe instead of arguing about it here, everyone should go read some books on it. If you think that takes too much time than you shouldn't be discussing it in the first place. Obviously one book is not enough; all scientists and historians are human beings and have something called "bias".
Also, one should not mistake how people leading a religion do and what the religion teaches. People would be wrong to blame Christianity itself for Papal greed, as there is no line of doctrine endorsing any such thing. Again, people are imperfect and fallible.
Go read some books.
This. In addition, Catholic Christianity is an entirely different religion to Protestant Christianity. I doubt you'll find any Protestant pastors preaching about the Crusades in a good light for anyone involved.
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Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
Killing for religion
Something I don't understand
Fools like me,who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep,for their beliefs
Do you kill on god's command?
^ Great song btw.
The Crusades were pretty much the same as any war in history: to expand strategic interests and power. Religion was nothing more than a justification and something to motivate the war effort, much like the freedom rhetoric of the 20th-21st centuries, which was even used by the Germans btw in WW2.
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Is there something wrong with expansionism? I would say 99% of states and religions are expansionist.
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I could argue that the first three major crusades were for "noble" reasons. (the idea of just war didn't originate in the crusades however; it's older)
However, Crusades 4 - 18something or another were for material gain of the church the kings, the lords, and whoever else incited them.
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On May 13 2012 12:42 Zahir wrote:
Is there something wrong with expansionism? I would say 99% of states and religions are expansionist.
Devastation, exploitation, death, oppression, war, brutality, etc. etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of this amirite?
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Expansion of Christian powers in the new world was hardly a shining example either.
I mean, you might as well blame the terrans for starting the brood wars for their expanionist policies in the kopralu sector. Why single them out when both the Protoss and Zerg were expanding all over the sector as well?
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Not to mention what these noble Christian knights did to their fellow Christians in Byzantium on their way to the holy land.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 13 2012 11:21 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 08:24 Introvert wrote:
Why oh why do I read these threads... falsehoods and vitriol abound.
Maybe instead of arguing about it here, everyone should go read some books on it. If you think that takes too much time than you shouldn't be discussing it in the first place. Obviously one book is not enough; all scientists and historians are human beings and have something called "bias".
Also, one should not mistake how people leading a religion do and what the religion teaches. People would be wrong to blame Christianity itself for Papal greed, as there is no line of doctrine endorsing any such thing. Again, people are imperfect and fallible.
Go read some books. This. In addition, Catholic Christianity is an entirely different religion to Protestant Christianity. I doubt you'll find any Protestant pastors preaching about the Crusades in a good light for anyone involved. Thank you my friend.
Jesus preached that we as Christians, as the church, should NOT engage in ANY form of violence. Is it not written "17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
+ Show Spoiler +
However, God has allowed the governments of this earth to "Punish evil and strike fear into evildoers". I guess that's why God tells us to submit to the governments - they are authorities put in place by God to punish evil (although most governments only do this partially.. look at the unjust wars America starts / the number of rapists that never get caught / rape-trials that are total farces). So christians are to submit to the government only so much as the government punishes evil and does it's job. If the government limits the spread of the gospel i.e. banning the bible, then I guess that's 200000% against God's will. We cannot submit to that particular law of banning the bible, so we continue to read and possess bibles (see Christians in Turkmenistan / early Communist China ).
As for Christians going to war? I say unless you are already enlisted don't fight in the war. We preach a gospel of peace, peace between men and peace between men and God. If Jesus wanted to wage an earthly war, He surely could have won over the ENTIRE earth within days. Not hard for God. God's war is spiritual - we are to put on the full armour of God that we have stand the spiritual attacks of Satan. "For my kingdom is not of this world" Amen to Jesus.
So then if you do fight in a war, so be it - we live in a broken world which often forces us into tough situation (i.e. does a christian turn the other cheek to a rapist who is raping your daughter in front of you ? I would like to. However I might just use my rugby training and nail him. I do not hope for the latter).
If the war was unjust/plain warmongering (i.e. your country starting a war for no reason / not seeking peace first etc), then SERIOUSLY don't fight. That actually would be sin to you. I am referring to the conduct of Christians who believe in the holy scriptures and the lordship of Christ. In regards to the crusades - overall the whole thing was totally wrong, for it's conception to the execution and the after effects. They butchered the Christians of the levant (some 30-50% of the populace under islamic rule at the time) and pillaged the christian peasants of the Byzantines. Sounds like some of those soldiers never read their bible (indeed, the bible was NOT taught to any but the nobility - who themselves were hypocrites anyhow).
So as a follower of Jesus Christ, I sincerely apologise for the wrongs we have done. In the name of Jesus we have butchered many. We have waged wars and even persecuted our own when they stood up for the truth. We condoned serfdom, slavery and other rubbish in the past. We have not been generous, nor taught the scriptures to the average joe. Yes - Christianity has acquired for itself a bad name and I can only say - I am sincerely sorry. The bible-believing churches of today are repenting of our ways. We are still hypocrites (for all people are sinful and even our "good works" are filthy rags before God). I hope you may accept this apology.
In due time I hope you can recognise the genuine love that Christians have for the lost in this world. That you would look towards the Salvation army and the countless mission agencies who seek to bring joy to the poor and destitute in the world. That you would recognise genuine love in Christians that comes only from the transformation that is in Christ Jesus.
For "Wisdom is justified by her children". If a man claims to be Christian but lives a rubbish lifestyle. Then he is not living as he ought to. His faith is powerless and worthless. If a man claims to be Christian and lives a holy lifestyle of generosity, gentleness, boldness in preaching the gospel and genuine love for those around him - then his faith has been perfected in love.
May all of you be blessed by the love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen
Click on the spoiler if you wish to read one humble opinion from a broken man. I am saved by Jesus - that is all.
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On May 13 2012 13:07 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 11:21 Birdie wrote:On May 13 2012 08:24 Introvert wrote:
Why oh why do I read these threads... falsehoods and vitriol abound.
Maybe instead of arguing about it here, everyone should go read some books on it. If you think that takes too much time than you shouldn't be discussing it in the first place. Obviously one book is not enough; all scientists and historians are human beings and have something called "bias".
Also, one should not mistake how people leading a religion do and what the religion teaches. People would be wrong to blame Christianity itself for Papal greed, as there is no line of doctrine endorsing any such thing. Again, people are imperfect and fallible.
Go read some books. This. In addition, Catholic Christianity is an entirely different religion to Protestant Christianity. I doubt you'll find any Protestant pastors preaching about the Crusades in a good light for anyone involved. Thank you my friend. Jesus preached that we as Christians, as the church, should NOT engage in ANY form of violence. Is it not written "17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.+ Show Spoiler +
However, God has allowed the governments of this earth to "Punish evil and strike fear into evildoers". I guess that's why God tells us to submit to the governments - they are authorities put in place by God to punish evil (although most governments only do this partially.. look at the unjust wars America starts / the number of rapists that never get caught / rape-trials that are total farces). So christians are to submit to the government only so much as the government punishes evil and does it's job. If the government limits the spread of the gospel i.e. banning the bible, then I guess that's 200000% against God's will. We cannot submit to that particular law of banning the bible, so we continue to read and possess bibles (see Christians in Turkmenistan / early Communist China ).
As for Christians going to war? I say unless you are already enlisted don't fight in the war. We preach a gospel of peace, peace between men and peace between men and God. If Jesus wanted to wage an earthly war, He surely could have won over the ENTIRE earth within days. Not hard for God. God's war is spiritual - we are to put on the full armour of God that we have stand the spiritual attacks of Satan. "For my kingdom is not of this world" Amen to Jesus.
So then if you do fight in a war, so be it - we live in a broken world which often forces us into tough situation (i.e. does a christian turn the other cheek to a rapist who is raping your daughter in front of you ? I would like to. However I might just use my rugby training and nail him. I do not hope for the latter).
If the war was unjust/plain warmongering (i.e. your country starting a war for no reason / not seeking peace first etc), then SERIOUSLY don't fight. That actually would be sin to you. I am referring to the conduct of Christians who believe in the holy scriptures and the lordship of Christ. In regards to the crusades - overall the whole thing was totally wrong, for it's conception to the execution and the after effects. They butchered the Christians of the levant (some 30-50% of the populace under islamic rule at the time) and pillaged the christian peasants of the Byzantines. Sounds like some of those soldiers never read their bible (indeed, the bible was NOT taught to any but the nobility - who themselves were hypocrites anyhow).
So as a follower of Jesus Christ, I sincerely apologise for the wrongs we have done. In the name of Jesus we have butchered many. We have waged wars and even persecuted our own when they stood up for the truth. We condoned serfdom, slavery and other rubbish in the past. We have not been generous, nor taught the scriptures to the average joe. Yes - Christianity has acquired for itself a bad name and I can only say - I am sincerely sorry. The bible-believing churches of today are repenting of our ways. We are still hypocrites (for all people are sinful and even our "good works" are filthy rags before God). I hope you may accept this apology.
In due time I hope you can recognise the genuine love that Christians have for the lost in this world. That you would look towards the Salvation army and the countless mission agencies who seek to bring joy to the poor and destitute in the world. That you would recognise genuine love in Christians that comes only from the transformation that is in Christ Jesus.
For "Wisdom is justified by her children". If a man claims to be Christian but lives a rubbish lifestyle. Then he is not living as he ought to. His faith is powerless and worthless. If a man claims to be Christian and lives a holy lifestyle of generosity, gentleness, boldness in preaching the gospel and genuine love for those around him - then his faith has been perfected in love.
May all of you be blessed by the love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen
Click on the spoiler if you wish to read one humble opinion from a broken man. I am saved by Jesus - that is all.
Prepare to be roasted and raged at brave one. Most people now days hate and despise Christianity. They beleive science and logic cannot exist with religion. They will cuss you out and they are disgusted with religoin. They will use all caps to show their pure hate and how much their blood is boiling. They wish you were dead with all relgious followers and they probably would have killed Jesus themselves.
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On May 13 2012 13:35 Instigata wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 13:07 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On May 13 2012 11:21 Birdie wrote:On May 13 2012 08:24 Introvert wrote:
Why oh why do I read these threads... falsehoods and vitriol abound.
Maybe instead of arguing about it here, everyone should go read some books on it. If you think that takes too much time than you shouldn't be discussing it in the first place. Obviously one book is not enough; all scientists and historians are human beings and have something called "bias".
Also, one should not mistake how people leading a religion do and what the religion teaches. People would be wrong to blame Christianity itself for Papal greed, as there is no line of doctrine endorsing any such thing. Again, people are imperfect and fallible.
Go read some books. This. In addition, Catholic Christianity is an entirely different religion to Protestant Christianity. I doubt you'll find any Protestant pastors preaching about the Crusades in a good light for anyone involved. Thank you my friend. Jesus preached that we as Christians, as the church, should NOT engage in ANY form of violence. Is it not written "17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.+ Show Spoiler +
However, God has allowed the governments of this earth to "Punish evil and strike fear into evildoers". I guess that's why God tells us to submit to the governments - they are authorities put in place by God to punish evil (although most governments only do this partially.. look at the unjust wars America starts / the number of rapists that never get caught / rape-trials that are total farces). So christians are to submit to the government only so much as the government punishes evil and does it's job. If the government limits the spread of the gospel i.e. banning the bible, then I guess that's 200000% against God's will. We cannot submit to that particular law of banning the bible, so we continue to read and possess bibles (see Christians in Turkmenistan / early Communist China ).
As for Christians going to war? I say unless you are already enlisted don't fight in the war. We preach a gospel of peace, peace between men and peace between men and God. If Jesus wanted to wage an earthly war, He surely could have won over the ENTIRE earth within days. Not hard for God. God's war is spiritual - we are to put on the full armour of God that we have stand the spiritual attacks of Satan. "For my kingdom is not of this world" Amen to Jesus.
So then if you do fight in a war, so be it - we live in a broken world which often forces us into tough situation (i.e. does a christian turn the other cheek to a rapist who is raping your daughter in front of you ? I would like to. However I might just use my rugby training and nail him. I do not hope for the latter).
If the war was unjust/plain warmongering (i.e. your country starting a war for no reason / not seeking peace first etc), then SERIOUSLY don't fight. That actually would be sin to you. I am referring to the conduct of Christians who believe in the holy scriptures and the lordship of Christ. In regards to the crusades - overall the whole thing was totally wrong, for it's conception to the execution and the after effects. They butchered the Christians of the levant (some 30-50% of the populace under islamic rule at the time) and pillaged the christian peasants of the Byzantines. Sounds like some of those soldiers never read their bible (indeed, the bible was NOT taught to any but the nobility - who themselves were hypocrites anyhow).
So as a follower of Jesus Christ, I sincerely apologise for the wrongs we have done. In the name of Jesus we have butchered many. We have waged wars and even persecuted our own when they stood up for the truth. We condoned serfdom, slavery and other rubbish in the past. We have not been generous, nor taught the scriptures to the average joe. Yes - Christianity has acquired for itself a bad name and I can only say - I am sincerely sorry. The bible-believing churches of today are repenting of our ways. We are still hypocrites (for all people are sinful and even our "good works" are filthy rags before God). I hope you may accept this apology.
In due time I hope you can recognise the genuine love that Christians have for the lost in this world. That you would look towards the Salvation army and the countless mission agencies who seek to bring joy to the poor and destitute in the world. That you would recognise genuine love in Christians that comes only from the transformation that is in Christ Jesus.
For "Wisdom is justified by her children". If a man claims to be Christian but lives a rubbish lifestyle. Then he is not living as he ought to. His faith is powerless and worthless. If a man claims to be Christian and lives a holy lifestyle of generosity, gentleness, boldness in preaching the gospel and genuine love for those around him - then his faith has been perfected in love.
May all of you be blessed by the love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen
Click on the spoiler if you wish to read one humble opinion from a broken man. I am saved by Jesus - that is all. Prepare to be roasted and raged at brave one. Most people now days hate and despise Christianity. They beleive science and logic cannot exist with religion. They will cuss you out and they are disgusted with religoin. They will use all caps to show their pure hate and how much their blood is boiling. They wish you were dead with all relgious followers and they probably would have killed Jesus themselves.
I don't think any one really ever rages at JesusOurSavior. He seems like a pretty nice guy, unless your post was sarcasm.
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No comments on the Cutie Mark Crusaders?
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On May 13 2012 12:42 Angel_ wrote:
I could argue that the first three major crusades were for "noble" reasons. (the idea of just war didn't originate in the crusades however; it's older)
However, Crusades 4 - 18something or another were for material gain of the church the kings, the lords, and whoever else incited them.
The Second Crusade was waged by the four holy kingdoms to expand their own power because they got greedy. It just failed miserably, resulting in 2 or 3 getting completely annihilated and the Kingdom of Jerusalem shrinking greatly.
EDIT: Well, in the East anyway. If I remember correctly, Portugal was retaken at this time from the Moors and some other success was had in the Iberian Peninsula.
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The dominant culture(s) in Europe and the dominant culture(s) in the Middle East have been fighting to control the Mediterranean for ~3500 years, one particular phase of it isn't really worth getting so excited over. What Western Christendom and Muslims did to each other isn't any worse (or better either) than what the Romans and Carthaginians did to each other, or what both did to the Byzantines, or what Alexander did to Tyre, or for that matter in our modern age that we like to think of as more civilized, what the Turks did to the Armenians, or what the Nazis did to Jews and other assorted "inferiors," or the Russians did to kulaks and the bourgeoisie (petty or not). Going back 1000 years to score cheap points about contemporary disputes for either side is meaningless save in that it can have the effect of making violence more likely today. Too many Muslims in the Middle East are indoctrinated that the Crusaders wanted to destroy Islam and force Christianity on them and that the same thing is happening now, and xenophobic nationalists believe that Europe (and America) are under assault today as Europe was intermittently from ~700 - 1699 by Muslims. And both sides use too many of the arguments and accusations being thrown around in this thread.
On May 13 2012 13:07 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 11:21 Birdie wrote:On May 13 2012 08:24 Introvert wrote:
Why oh why do I read these threads... falsehoods and vitriol abound.
Maybe instead of arguing about it here, everyone should go read some books on it. If you think that takes too much time than you shouldn't be discussing it in the first place. Obviously one book is not enough; all scientists and historians are human beings and have something called "bias".
Also, one should not mistake how people leading a religion do and what the religion teaches. People would be wrong to blame Christianity itself for Papal greed, as there is no line of doctrine endorsing any such thing. Again, people are imperfect and fallible.
Go read some books. This. In addition, Catholic Christianity is an entirely different religion to Protestant Christianity. I doubt you'll find any Protestant pastors preaching about the Crusades in a good light for anyone involved. Thank you my friend. Jesus preached that we as Christians, as the church, should NOT engage in ANY form of violence. Is it not written "17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.+ Show Spoiler +
However, God has allowed the governments of this earth to "Punish evil and strike fear into evildoers". I guess that's why God tells us to submit to the governments - they are authorities put in place by God to punish evil (although most governments only do this partially.. look at the unjust wars America starts / the number of rapists that never get caught / rape-trials that are total farces). So christians are to submit to the government only so much as the government punishes evil and does it's job. If the government limits the spread of the gospel i.e. banning the bible, then I guess that's 200000% against God's will. We cannot submit to that particular law of banning the bible, so we continue to read and possess bibles (see Christians in Turkmenistan / early Communist China ).
As for Christians going to war? I say unless you are already enlisted don't fight in the war. We preach a gospel of peace, peace between men and peace between men and God. If Jesus wanted to wage an earthly war, He surely could have won over the ENTIRE earth within days. Not hard for God. God's war is spiritual - we are to put on the full armour of God that we have stand the spiritual attacks of Satan. "For my kingdom is not of this world" Amen to Jesus.
So then if you do fight in a war, so be it - we live in a broken world which often forces us into tough situation (i.e. does a christian turn the other cheek to a rapist who is raping your daughter in front of you ? I would like to. However I might just use my rugby training and nail him. I do not hope for the latter).
If the war was unjust/plain warmongering (i.e. your country starting a war for no reason / not seeking peace first etc), then SERIOUSLY don't fight. That actually would be sin to you. I am referring to the conduct of Christians who believe in the holy scriptures and the lordship of Christ. In regards to the crusades - overall the whole thing was totally wrong, for it's conception to the execution and the after effects. They butchered the Christians of the levant (some 30-50% of the populace under islamic rule at the time) and pillaged the christian peasants of the Byzantines. Sounds like some of those soldiers never read their bible (indeed, the bible was NOT taught to any but the nobility - who themselves were hypocrites anyhow).
So as a follower of Jesus Christ, I sincerely apologise for the wrongs we have done. In the name of Jesus we have butchered many. We have waged wars and even persecuted our own when they stood up for the truth. We condoned serfdom, slavery and other rubbish in the past. We have not been generous, nor taught the scriptures to the average joe. Yes - Christianity has acquired for itself a bad name and I can only say - I am sincerely sorry. The bible-believing churches of today are repenting of our ways. We are still hypocrites (for all people are sinful and even our "good works" are filthy rags before God). I hope you may accept this apology.
In due time I hope you can recognise the genuine love that Christians have for the lost in this world. That you would look towards the Salvation army and the countless mission agencies who seek to bring joy to the poor and destitute in the world. That you would recognise genuine love in Christians that comes only from the transformation that is in Christ Jesus.
For "Wisdom is justified by her children". If a man claims to be Christian but lives a rubbish lifestyle. Then he is not living as he ought to. His faith is powerless and worthless. If a man claims to be Christian and lives a holy lifestyle of generosity, gentleness, boldness in preaching the gospel and genuine love for those around him - then his faith has been perfected in love.
May all of you be blessed by the love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen
Click on the spoiler if you wish to read one humble opinion from a broken man. I am saved by Jesus - that is all.
Even in a thread about wars that happened 700-1000 years ago there has to be at some point at least one throwaway America-bash. *sigh*
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On May 13 2012 13:35 Instigata wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 13:07 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On May 13 2012 11:21 Birdie wrote:On May 13 2012 08:24 Introvert wrote:
Why oh why do I read these threads... falsehoods and vitriol abound.
Maybe instead of arguing about it here, everyone should go read some books on it. If you think that takes too much time than you shouldn't be discussing it in the first place. Obviously one book is not enough; all scientists and historians are human beings and have something called "bias".
Also, one should not mistake how people leading a religion do and what the religion teaches. People would be wrong to blame Christianity itself for Papal greed, as there is no line of doctrine endorsing any such thing. Again, people are imperfect and fallible.
Go read some books. This. In addition, Catholic Christianity is an entirely different religion to Protestant Christianity. I doubt you'll find any Protestant pastors preaching about the Crusades in a good light for anyone involved. Thank you my friend. Jesus preached that we as Christians, as the church, should NOT engage in ANY form of violence. Is it not written "17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.+ Show Spoiler +
However, God has allowed the governments of this earth to "Punish evil and strike fear into evildoers". I guess that's why God tells us to submit to the governments - they are authorities put in place by God to punish evil (although most governments only do this partially.. look at the unjust wars America starts / the number of rapists that never get caught / rape-trials that are total farces). So christians are to submit to the government only so much as the government punishes evil and does it's job. If the government limits the spread of the gospel i.e. banning the bible, then I guess that's 200000% against God's will. We cannot submit to that particular law of banning the bible, so we continue to read and possess bibles (see Christians in Turkmenistan / early Communist China ).
As for Christians going to war? I say unless you are already enlisted don't fight in the war. We preach a gospel of peace, peace between men and peace between men and God. If Jesus wanted to wage an earthly war, He surely could have won over the ENTIRE earth within days. Not hard for God. God's war is spiritual - we are to put on the full armour of God that we have stand the spiritual attacks of Satan. "For my kingdom is not of this world" Amen to Jesus.
So then if you do fight in a war, so be it - we live in a broken world which often forces us into tough situation (i.e. does a christian turn the other cheek to a rapist who is raping your daughter in front of you ? I would like to. However I might just use my rugby training and nail him. I do not hope for the latter).
If the war was unjust/plain warmongering (i.e. your country starting a war for no reason / not seeking peace first etc), then SERIOUSLY don't fight. That actually would be sin to you. I am referring to the conduct of Christians who believe in the holy scriptures and the lordship of Christ. In regards to the crusades - overall the whole thing was totally wrong, for it's conception to the execution and the after effects. They butchered the Christians of the levant (some 30-50% of the populace under islamic rule at the time) and pillaged the christian peasants of the Byzantines. Sounds like some of those soldiers never read their bible (indeed, the bible was NOT taught to any but the nobility - who themselves were hypocrites anyhow).
So as a follower of Jesus Christ, I sincerely apologise for the wrongs we have done. In the name of Jesus we have butchered many. We have waged wars and even persecuted our own when they stood up for the truth. We condoned serfdom, slavery and other rubbish in the past. We have not been generous, nor taught the scriptures to the average joe. Yes - Christianity has acquired for itself a bad name and I can only say - I am sincerely sorry. The bible-believing churches of today are repenting of our ways. We are still hypocrites (for all people are sinful and even our "good works" are filthy rags before God). I hope you may accept this apology.
In due time I hope you can recognise the genuine love that Christians have for the lost in this world. That you would look towards the Salvation army and the countless mission agencies who seek to bring joy to the poor and destitute in the world. That you would recognise genuine love in Christians that comes only from the transformation that is in Christ Jesus.
For "Wisdom is justified by her children". If a man claims to be Christian but lives a rubbish lifestyle. Then he is not living as he ought to. His faith is powerless and worthless. If a man claims to be Christian and lives a holy lifestyle of generosity, gentleness, boldness in preaching the gospel and genuine love for those around him - then his faith has been perfected in love.
May all of you be blessed by the love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen
Click on the spoiler if you wish to read one humble opinion from a broken man. I am saved by Jesus - that is all. Prepare to be roasted and raged at brave one. Most people now days hate and despise Christianity. They beleive science and logic cannot exist with religion. They will cuss you out and they are disgusted with religoin. They will use all caps to show their pure hate and how much their blood is boiling. They wish you were dead with all relgious followers and they probably would have killed Jesus themselves.
What. I have yet to meet any person who thinks like that. Most people without a religion just wish to be left alone. I don't care what you believe in, as long as you don't push it on me. I have no intention to kill anyone, be he jesus or not. I also doubt that a lot of people wish all religious people to be dead. People might wish the preachy ones to shut up, which is reasonable. The same works the other way around too, of course. Preachy atheists are similarly annoying as preachy christians. People don't hate christianity. They hate people telling them that they should become christians.
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What. I have yet to meet any person who thinks like that. Most people without a religion just wish to be left alone. I don't care what you believe in, as long as you don't push it on me. I have no intention to kill anyone, be he jesus or not. I also doubt that a lot of people wish all religious people to be dead. People might wish the preachy ones to shut up, which is reasonable. The same works the other way around too, of course. Preachy atheists are similarly annoying as preachy christians. People don't hate christianity. They hate people telling them that they should become christians.
I can understand why people get all pissy whenever some aggressive jerk-off atheist or religious proselytizer starts riding their hobby horse but honestly the vast majority of both atheists and theists are not like that. Why would anyone get mad just by being told they should be Christian or atheist or whatever. Going out and converting people is a basic characteristic of any belief system political social religious whatever I'm not saying you specifically but people get way too offended about being proselytized at these days.
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On May 13 2012 14:44 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +What. I have yet to meet any person who thinks like that. Most people without a religion just wish to be left alone. I don't care what you believe in, as long as you don't push it on me. I have no intention to kill anyone, be he jesus or not. I also doubt that a lot of people wish all religious people to be dead. People might wish the preachy ones to shut up, which is reasonable. The same works the other way around too, of course. Preachy atheists are similarly annoying as preachy christians. People don't hate christianity. They hate people telling them that they should become christians. I can understand why people get all pissy whenever some aggressive jerk-off atheist or religious proselytizer starts riding their hobby horse but honestly the vast majority of both atheists and theists are not like that. Why would anyone get mad just by being told they should be Christian or atheist or whatever. Going out and converting people is a basic characteristic of any belief system political social religious whatever I'm not saying you specifically but people get way too offended about being proselytized at these days.
I think people hate the phone calls from politicians just as much as those annoying people who come up to you and ask, "have you heard the good news?" If it involves me going to hell it's probably not good news.
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so basically your post boils down to.
NUH UH THEY STARTED IT.
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On May 12 2012 22:21 Mattacate wrote:
Funny story, I have an exam on this in 3 days.
lol me too in a week.
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On May 13 2012 12:57 Zahir wrote:
Not to mention what these noble Christian knights did to their fellow Christians in Byzantium on their way to the holy land.
First of, contrary to what has been said concerning the 4th crusade in this thread, there never had been any premeditated plan to do the Constantinople sacking and a lot among the Christian crusades were against it.
The crusaders were in desperate need of a fleet of warships and transports, thus they faced a dilemma, and refused to come back to home with shame.
They chose to do a little evil to serve a greater good.
The ultimate goal never stoped being Jerusalem.
The end was disastrous, but people need to keep in mind that the Pape Innocent excommunicated the Crusaders the second the Crusaders chose to attack a Christian city (zara).
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Dear OP, you seem to have a very one-sided point of view in your "historic" elaboration. The point with wars is that they always lead to injustice and suffering, and looking back at a period of 2 centuries+ of war and stating "but the others started" just makes me sad. Especially since they were religiously motivated (real politic interest were of course also involved) and both of the involved religions supposedly teach peace.
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EPT
