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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general.
It's terrible. There is a reason why every time a thread about a shooting or something similar is created, quickly there is a need to put a mod note saying gun control debate should be taken to the gun control thread. It's a debate that will never end, composed of rehashed arguments from people that will never change their minds. It only serves to clutter the thread and should be avoided whenever possible.
As you said so yourself, you are not talking about the case. So you probally shouldn't be talking about it in a thread specifically about this case.
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On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole.
You implied a lot of stuff, including that he had some sort of guilty for carrying around the gun, or that anyone carrying a fire arm is a jerk and shouldn't do it unless they are going into a war zone.
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On July 12 2013 05:34 LeroyJenkem wrote:
Does anyone else feel like theres a hidden agenda behind this entire event / trial? Its obvious Zimmerman was charged solely for political reasons and to appease a certain percentage of the public. I just feel like the outcome of this trial has been predetermined (Zimmerman gets acquitted). And once he does theres a high chance of a certain percentage of the public rioting / protesting to the point it turns violent. Maybe im just being paranoid but this whole ordeal just smells a little bit fishy to me.
No, unless you're implying that the government has a hidden agenda to incite people to riot and engage in violent protest. I don't see how that does them any good.
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On July 12 2013 06:31 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. its a concealed gun permit. likely nobody even saw the gun. why does that make him an asshole?
For the exact reason Plansix mentioned.
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On July 12 2013 04:12 Blacktion wrote:
Is the state paying for GZs defense too?
LOL
no.
Public defenders are by and large atrocious, you can get one, but you dont want one.
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On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole.
Eh, I'm still of the mind that you never know when or why you will need it. It doesn't have to necessarily be about thinking you are an action figure. What if a rabid German Shepherd were to attack you on your way out of target? I'll bet you sure wished you utilized your concealed carry permit while you're laying in a hospital bed nearly mauled to death. Is it likely for that to happen? No, but it is possible.
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On July 12 2013 06:32 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:31 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. its a concealed gun permit. likely nobody even saw the gun. why does that make him an asshole? For the exact reason Plansix mentioned.
i didnt delete it fast enough. i thought you were talking about him taking it to target, but that was someone else.
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On July 12 2013 06:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. You implied a lot of stuff, including that he had some sort of guilty for carrying around the gun, or that anyone carrying a fire arm is a jerk and shouldn't do it unless they are going into a war zone.
At no point did I ever say that. In fact I repeatedly said there were plenty of times I thought it was perfectly reasonable to carry a firearm. Even carry one at all times. And I also think it should be completely legal for a licensed person to carry a firearm. You all repeatedly straw manned my argument and really just made it impossible for me to get my point across.
I think that someone who thinks that a gun is a good accessory for their day to day activities in situations where they've never seen or been the victim of violence is irrational and, like you said, probably fancies themselves an action hero.
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On July 12 2013 06:34 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. Eh, I'm still of the mind that you never know when or why you will need it. It doesn't have to necessarily be about thinking you are an action figure. What if a rabid German Shepherd were to attack you on your way out of target? I'll bet you sure wished you utilized your concealed carry permit while you're laying in a hospital bed nearly mauled to death. Is it likely for that to happen? No, but it is possible.
Look it's also possible that aliens will abduct me. Positing situations with mere non-zero possibility doesn't contribute to any meaningful discussion. And it doesn't make you rational for preparing for those situations.
In Plansix's case where his neighborhood has had several breakins, the possibility is greater than simple non-zero so it might be rational for him to prepare for a break in. I would imagine that a trip to target or the grocery store in a nice neighborhood where you've never experienced violence before, does not rank anywhere close to that situation.
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On July 12 2013 06:35 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:32 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. You implied a lot of stuff, including that he had some sort of guilty for carrying around the gun, or that anyone carrying a fire arm is a jerk and shouldn't do it unless they are going into a war zone. At no point did I ever say that. In fact I repeatedly said there were plenty of times I thought it was perfectly reasonable to carry a fire arm. Even carry one at all times. You all repeatedly straw manned my argument and really just made it impossible for me to get my point across. I think that someone who thinks that a gun is a good accessory for their day to day activities in situations where they've never seen or been the victim of violence is irrational and, like you said, probably fancies themselves an action hero.
Look, I agree that there are people who take guns with them all day because it makes them feel more powerful and it makes them feel like an action hero. I agree that some people are a bit irrational in their fear of being mugged on a day to day basis. I disagree with your notion that you're somehow only qualified to carry a firearm if you're in immediate danger of violence because of your place of living or have been a victim of violence before. You don't know when tragedy will strike.
I think one of the things that comes with a CCW is responsibility. Responsibility on your own part, some basic common fucking sense. If you're going out to buy some milk on a 5 minute errand in your upper class neighborhood I agree open or concealed carrying for the hell of it is kind of silly and dare I say a bit irresponsible. Keeping a gun in your glove compartment at all times isn't irresponsible. Taking your gun with you when you're going to be patrolling the streets all night for your neighborhood watch position isn't far too unreasonable. I think GZ is a bit of a tryhard but I don't think it's unreasonable.
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On July 12 2013 06:34 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 04:12 Blacktion wrote:
Is the state paying for GZs defense too?
LOL no. Public defenders are by and large atrocious, you can get one, but you dont want one.
What's the basis for this statement? I don't think that a public defender or assigned counsel is any worse than the average retained attorney. Sure if you want a Ron Kuby or Ben Brafman, or even a less-famous but well-reputed lawyer like Doug Rankin, you're going to be paying out the nose. But your average middle-of-the-road retained criminal defense attorney isn't necessarily any better than a public defender or assigned counsel in my experience.
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On July 12 2013 06:40 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:35 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:32 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. You implied a lot of stuff, including that he had some sort of guilty for carrying around the gun, or that anyone carrying a fire arm is a jerk and shouldn't do it unless they are going into a war zone. At no point did I ever say that. In fact I repeatedly said there were plenty of times I thought it was perfectly reasonable to carry a fire arm. Even carry one at all times. You all repeatedly straw manned my argument and really just made it impossible for me to get my point across. I think that someone who thinks that a gun is a good accessory for their day to day activities in situations where they've never seen or been the victim of violence is irrational and, like you said, probably fancies themselves an action hero. Look, I agree that there are people who take guns with them all day because it makes them feel more powerful and it makes them feel like an action hero. I agree that some people are a bit irrational in their fear of being mugged on a day to day basis. I disagree with your notion that you're somehow only qualified to carry a firearm if you're in immediate danger of violence because of your place of living or have been a victim of violence before. You don't know when tragedy will strike. I think one of the things that comes with a CCW is responsibility. Responsibility on your own part, some basic common fucking sense. If you're going out to buy some milk on a 5 minute errand in your upper class neighborhood I agree open or concealed carrying for the hell of it is kind of silly and dare I say a bit irresponsible. Keeping a gun in your glove compartment at all times isn't irresponsible. Taking your gun with you when you're going to be patrolling the streets all night for your neighborhood watch position isn't far too unreasonable. I think GZ is a bit of a tryhard but I don't think it's unreasonable.
I do not know where you get this notion but it is certainly not mine.
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On July 12 2013 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:34 PassiveAce wrote:On July 12 2013 04:12 Blacktion wrote:
Is the state paying for GZs defense too?
LOL no. Public defenders are by and large atrocious, you can get one, but you dont want one. What's the basis for this statement? I don't think that a public defender is any worse than the average retained attorney. Sure if you want a Ron Kuby or Ben Brafman, or even a less-famous but well-reputed lawyer like Doug Rankin, you're going to be paying out the nose. But your average middle-of-the-road retained criminal defense attorney isn't necessarily any better than a public defender in my experience.
there is no basis for the statement. just another idiot on the internet who wants to post shit based on watching too much Law & Order or The Wire.
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On July 12 2013 06:42 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:40 Fruscainte wrote:On July 12 2013 06:35 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:32 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. You implied a lot of stuff, including that he had some sort of guilty for carrying around the gun, or that anyone carrying a fire arm is a jerk and shouldn't do it unless they are going into a war zone. At no point did I ever say that. In fact I repeatedly said there were plenty of times I thought it was perfectly reasonable to carry a fire arm. Even carry one at all times. You all repeatedly straw manned my argument and really just made it impossible for me to get my point across. I think that someone who thinks that a gun is a good accessory for their day to day activities in situations where they've never seen or been the victim of violence is irrational and, like you said, probably fancies themselves an action hero. Look, I agree that there are people who take guns with them all day because it makes them feel more powerful and it makes them feel like an action hero. I agree that some people are a bit irrational in their fear of being mugged on a day to day basis. I disagree with your notion that you're somehow only qualified to carry a firearm if you're in immediate danger of violence because of your place of living or have been a victim of violence before. You don't know when tragedy will strike. I think one of the things that comes with a CCW is responsibility. Responsibility on your own part, some basic common fucking sense. If you're going out to buy some milk on a 5 minute errand in your upper class neighborhood I agree open or concealed carrying for the hell of it is kind of silly and dare I say a bit irresponsible. Keeping a gun in your glove compartment at all times isn't irresponsible. Taking your gun with you when you're going to be patrolling the streets all night for your neighborhood watch position isn't far too unreasonable. I think GZ is a bit of a tryhard but I don't think it's unreasonable. I do not know where you get this notion but it is certainly not mine.
I think that someone who thinks that a gun is a good accessory for their day to day activities in situations where they've never seen or been the victim of violence is irrational and, like you said, probably fancies themselves an action hero.
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On July 12 2013 06:43 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:On July 12 2013 06:34 PassiveAce wrote:On July 12 2013 04:12 Blacktion wrote:
Is the state paying for GZs defense too?
LOL no. Public defenders are by and large atrocious, you can get one, but you dont want one. What's the basis for this statement? I don't think that a public defender is any worse than the average retained attorney. Sure if you want a Ron Kuby or Ben Brafman, or even a less-famous but well-reputed lawyer like Doug Rankin, you're going to be paying out the nose. But your average middle-of-the-road retained criminal defense attorney isn't necessarily any better than a public defender in my experience. there is no basis for the statement. just another idiot on the internet who wants to post shit based on watching too much Law & Order or The Wire.
It struck me as a funny statement because if someone believes that all public defenders are bad, that person presumably believes that any lawyer choosing public service over the private sector must be bad. Therefore, all prosecutors are also bad because they could be in private practice. Also, all judges are bad because they too could be in private practice. Obviously that can't be correct, so the statement's inaccuracy is apparent on its face.
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On July 12 2013 06:45 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:42 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:40 Fruscainte wrote:On July 12 2013 06:35 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:32 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:29 Klondikebar wrote:On July 12 2013 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 12 2013 06:27 Kaitlin wrote:On July 12 2013 06:24 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think the tendency for this thread to shift towards gun control is enlightening. Not to this case, or the US as a whole, but on TL in general. I'm not particularly enlightened. It's just that certain people seem to take issue with George Zimmerman's right to have been armed in this case, a right which even BDLR conceded in his closing, but yet people argue that it was wrong and should lead to his conviction. It's a demonstration of people's inability to understand the law as it applies to this case. It is super annoying. I think GZ is an idiot for bringing his gun to Target..because, I think anyone who brings a gun to go get milk is just silly and thinks they are an action hero. However, I don't think it is reason for him to be guilty of anything. I never said it made him guilty. I said it made him an asshole. You implied a lot of stuff, including that he had some sort of guilty for carrying around the gun, or that anyone carrying a fire arm is a jerk and shouldn't do it unless they are going into a war zone. At no point did I ever say that. In fact I repeatedly said there were plenty of times I thought it was perfectly reasonable to carry a fire arm. Even carry one at all times. You all repeatedly straw manned my argument and really just made it impossible for me to get my point across. I think that someone who thinks that a gun is a good accessory for their day to day activities in situations where they've never seen or been the victim of violence is irrational and, like you said, probably fancies themselves an action hero. Look, I agree that there are people who take guns with them all day because it makes them feel more powerful and it makes them feel like an action hero. I agree that some people are a bit irrational in their fear of being mugged on a day to day basis. I disagree with your notion that you're somehow only qualified to carry a firearm if you're in immediate danger of violence because of your place of living or have been a victim of violence before. You don't know when tragedy will strike. I think one of the things that comes with a CCW is responsibility. Responsibility on your own part, some basic common fucking sense. If you're going out to buy some milk on a 5 minute errand in your upper class neighborhood I agree open or concealed carrying for the hell of it is kind of silly and dare I say a bit irresponsible. Keeping a gun in your glove compartment at all times isn't irresponsible. Taking your gun with you when you're going to be patrolling the streets all night for your neighborhood watch position isn't far too unreasonable. I think GZ is a bit of a tryhard but I don't think it's unreasonable. I do not know where you get this notion but it is certainly not mine. Show nested quote +I think that someone who thinks that a gun is a good accessory for their day to day activities in situations where they've never seen or been the victim of violence is irrational and, like you said, probably fancies themselves an action hero.
Yeah. That's very different than what you said.
1. Qualification to carry a firearm does not then immediately mean you are rational for deciding to carry one. Zimmerman was clearly qualified, but I do not think he was rational for thinking he needed a gun to go shopping at target.
2. You do not have to be the victim of violence in the past. I'm talking about violence in general. You don't have to be the guy who was shot at the grocery store. But has anyone been shot at your grocery store? Has someone even tried to rob it? has there been any criminal activity there that a firearm would deter or stop at all?
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On July 12 2013 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:34 PassiveAce wrote:On July 12 2013 04:12 Blacktion wrote:
Is the state paying for GZs defense too?
LOL no. Public defenders are by and large atrocious, you can get one, but you dont want one. What's the basis for this statement? I don't think that a public defender or assigned counsel is any worse than the average retained attorney. Sure if you want a Ron Kuby or Ben Brafman, or even a less-famous but well-reputed lawyer like Doug Rankin, you're going to be paying out the nose. But your average middle-of-the-road retained criminal defense attorney isn't necessarily any better than a public defender or assigned counsel in my experience.
Public defenders are severely overworked and underpaid. Retaining your own attorney in criminal matters is much better then relying on state provided counsel.
If you were on trial for murder would you rely on whatever random public defender was chosen for you?
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Judge is allowing manslaughter verdict as well. I think they may find him guilty for that. No riots 
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On July 12 2013 06:49 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:On July 12 2013 06:34 PassiveAce wrote:On July 12 2013 04:12 Blacktion wrote:
Is the state paying for GZs defense too?
LOL no. Public defenders are by and large atrocious, you can get one, but you dont want one. What's the basis for this statement? I don't think that a public defender or assigned counsel is any worse than the average retained attorney. Sure if you want a Ron Kuby or Ben Brafman, or even a less-famous but well-reputed lawyer like Doug Rankin, you're going to be paying out the nose. But your average middle-of-the-road retained criminal defense attorney isn't necessarily any better than a public defender or assigned counsel in my experience. Public defenders are severely overworked and underpaid. Retaining your own attorney in criminal matters is much better then relying on state provided counsel. If you were on trial for murder would you rely on whatever random public defender was chosen for you?
unless someone can afford $300-400/hr, you are completely offbase saying that people should reject public defenders even with their large caseloads. cheap criminal attorneys tend to be the bottom feeders of the bar that feed off poor clients who dont know any better.
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EPT
