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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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Blacktion
United Kingdom1148 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:45 iamperfection wrote: Why ? im pretty sure the vast majority would probably be outraged here on tl. Id be fucking disgusted. Even if GZ is guilty, the prosecution has got nowhere near beyond reasonable doubt. Theres no way the jury can convict without some serious bullshit behind closed doors. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:55 Blacktion wrote: Id be fucking disgusted. Even if GZ is guilty, the prosecution has got nowhere near beyond reasonable doubt. Theres no way the jury can convict without some serious bullshit behind closed doors. I'm not going to get bent out of shape. Juries are weird, but they are the final ruling in the matter and he will have been judged by the peers. I disagree with their reasoning, but I don't fully believe Zimmerman's story that he was jumped and did nothing to escalate the conflict. | ||
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Microchaton
France342 Posts
Beg your pardon ? (Parisian here) If anything it's the contrary, a lot of people didn't have anything against nazis before the invasion or even agreed with their ideas (jews were despised pretty much everywhere + charismatic leader with strong ideas/authority at a time where the french political (and military) leaders weren't exactly at their strongest... But everybody was pretty mad when Paris was invaded, the people who actually "welcomed" the invaders were very few and far between, and very discreet at the beginning. If you meant Nazi apologists in the rest of the world, it also isn't really true it's just that a lot of people didn't want to take risks by betting on the wrong horse. Anyway I'm going to be quite upset and disappointed if Zimmerman is convicted and I sort of want to be see what happens when he's acquitted. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:43 GreenGringo wrote: I predict that if Zimmerman is found guilty, the general opinion at TL will switch overnight from 95% pro-Zimmerman to 50% either way. Kind of like when Paris fell to the Germans and then opinion started to be divided and all these Nazi apologists sprung up out of the woodwork. I think you're probably confusing average opinion of all TL users with the opinions of the ones still talking loudest and most frequently in this thread. Just saying. Same applies to any thread about a particular topic. The ones who happen to be chirping away the most on a given topic dont necessarily represent an accurate sampling of TL overall Just nitpicking, sorry | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On July 12 2013 08:13 Microchaton wrote: Well, I find it hard to believe that the French were pro-German when they were at war with Germany, and I don't think it's disputable that the Nazi occupation greatly accelerated the Nazification of French culture. But the details don't really matter. Point was, people tend to go along with power. It's true in the case of invading armies, who almost invariably (given ruthless enough tactics) bend the occupied people to their will. I fear we'll find that it's true in the case of baying mobs that threaten to riot and brand anyone who disagrees with them as a racist. Beg your pardon ? (Parisian here) If anything it's the contrary, a lot of people didn't have anything against nazis before the invasion or even agreed with their ideas (jews were despised pretty much everywhere + charismatic leader with strong ideas/authority at a time where the french political (and military) leaders weren't exactly at their strongest... But everybody was pretty mad when Paris was invaded, the people who actually "welcomed" the invaders were very few and far between, and very discreet at the beginning. If you meant Nazi apologists in the rest of the world, it also isn't really true it's just that a lot of people didn't want to take risks by betting on the wrong horse. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:43 GreenGringo wrote: I predict that if Zimmerman is found guilty, the general opinion at TL will switch overnight from 95% pro-Zimmerman to 50% either way. Kind of like when Paris fell to the Germans and then opinion started to be divided and all these Nazi apologists sprung up out of the woodwork. I am sure you will see some backtracking and/or berating of the jury because they didn't see what TL posters saw. I don't at all find Zimmerman's multiple accounts believable or reasonable. So for me much of what people here are presuming is reasonable is capable of being dismissed as unreasonable. As a result I find it totally possible and reasonably likely he gets convicted of something, however I do find it highly unlikely it will be murder 2 And for those who think it totally unreasonable, the justice system has made it clear otherwise. So if there is a bias from the judge that doesn't adhere to the law the appeal acquittal would likely get granted with little fanfare. The idea that the case should have never been granted is a view held by some on TL and the failed PD but the judge knew this would be highly scrutinized; if it was remotely as obvious as TL posters make it sound that it should of been thrown out, it would have been. Simply put the vast majority here are simply wrong about whether the case should of been brought in the first place so I don't put a whole lot of value in their assessments of the potential verdicts. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:03 GreenHorizons wrote: I am sure you will see some backtracking and/or berating of the jury because they didn't see what TL posters saw. I don't at all find Zimmerman's multiple accounts believable or reasonable. So for me much of what people here are presuming is reasonable is capable of being dismissed as unreasonable. As a result I find it totally possible and reasonably likely he gets convicted of something, however I do find it highly unlikely it will be murder 2 And for those who think it totally unreasonable, the justice system has made it clear otherwise. So if there is a bias from the judge that doesn't adhere to the law the appeal acquittal would likely get granted with little fanfare. The idea that the case should have never been granted is a view held by some on TL and the failed PD but the judge knew this would be highly scrutinized; if it was remotely as obvious as TL posters make it sound that it should of been thrown out, it would have been. Simply put the vast majority here are simply wrong about whether the case should of been brought in the first place so I don't put a whole lot of value in their assessments of the potential verdicts. It doesn't really matter if you believe Zimmerman or not. You have to believe beyond reasonable doubt (100% sure in your head) that it's murder. If you don't believe 100% that it's murder then you can't convict him. | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:21 Infernal_dream wrote: It doesn't really matter if you believe Zimmerman or not. You have to believe beyond reasonable doubt (100% sure in your head) that it's murder. If you don't believe 100% that it's murder then you can't convict him. Judge is allowing manslaughter charge now, no? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
That being said I don't find it reasonable to doubt that Zimmerman initiated the conflict. I know people will disagree and regardless of what I post for why people won't accept it so I won't bother and will just wait till the verdict comes out most likely. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23930 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:28 ragz_gt wrote: Judge is allowing manslaughter charge now, no? Sure is. Contrary to the majority opinion of this threads posters | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:55 Blacktion wrote: Id be fucking disgusted. Even if GZ is guilty, the prosecution has got nowhere near beyond reasonable doubt. Theres no way the jury can convict without some serious bullshit behind closed doors. I would never underestimate humanity's collective capacity to be completely unreasonable. | ||
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ConGee
318 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:28 ragz_gt wrote: Judge is allowing manslaughter charge now, no? Self-defense is an absolute defense against manslaughter. They haven't been able to disprove Zimmerman's account of self-defense (John Good's testimony, autopsy, and injuries), so it should be stricken if they rule according to the instructions. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:40 ConGee wrote: Self-defense is an absolute defense against manslaughter. They haven't been able to disprove Zimmerman's account of self-defense (John Good's testimony, autopsy, and injuries), so it should be stricken if they rule according to the instructions. There is a difference between what the judge allows and the verdict the jury renders....... | ||
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Microchaton
France342 Posts
[B]On July 12 2013 08:47 GreenGringo wrote:Well, I find it hard to believe that the French were pro-German when they were at war with Germany, and I don't think it's disputable that the Nazi occupation greatly accelerated the Nazification of French culture. But the details don't really matter. Point was, people tend to go along with power. It's true in the case of invading armies, who almost invariably (given ruthless enough tactics) bend the occupied people to their will. I fear we'll find that it's true in the case of baying mobs that threaten to riot and brand anyone who disagrees with them as a racist. Sigh I'm sure you know the history of my country better than myself, regardless of my masters degree in history. Anyway I don't want to derail this thread, it's already been diverted too much by various debates. How does the jury sequestration work, are they forbidden to use the internet/their phones, constantly escorted and isolated in a hotel room and unable to speak with one another ? | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:49 Microchaton wrote: Sigh I'm sure you know the history of my country better than myself, regardless of my masters degree in history. Anyway I don't want to derail this thread, it's already been diverted too much by various debates. How does the jury sequestration, are they forbidden to use the internet/their phones, constantly escorted and isolated in a hotel room and unable to speak with one another ? Unless something is different with Florida and I'm not aware of it, yes, this is correct. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:49 Microchaton wrote: Sigh I'm sure you know the history of my country better than myself, regardless of my masters degree in history. Anyway I don't want to derail this thread, it's already been diverted too much by various debates. How does the jury sequestration, are they forbidden to use the internet/their phones, constantly escorted and isolated in a hotel room and unable to speak with one another ? And here continues the stereotype of the arrogant American who think they know more about other people's country than the people who are from that country. On topic, I didn't know juries were ever forbidden from speaking to each other. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:52 plogamer wrote: And here continues the stereotype of the arrogant American who think they know more about other people's country than the people who are from that country. On topic, I didn't know juries were ever forbidden from speaking to each other. They are allowed to talk with one another during deliberations. Edit: Though this differs state to state. | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:29 GreenHorizons wrote: Well to be fair, what I think or what anyone here in this thread thinks doesn't amount to a hill of beans. That being said I don't find it reasonable to doubt that Zimmerman initiated the conflict. I know people will disagree and regardless of what I post for why people won't accept it so I won't bother and will just wait till the verdict comes out most likely. For the record I have pretty much the same stance as you on this. I only started looking at this thread again a few days ago after noticing that the trial had commenced. I had initially written Zimmerman off as guilty but as more information came out became uncertain. I thought I saw something earlier about getting the phone conversation between Trayvon and his friend, is anything happening with that? If that managed to capture the audio of the initial conflict that could shed some light on whether GZ initiated contact intentionally, because I find it really hard to believe that Trayvon first ran away, then doubled back to initiate. Either way, if Zimmerman gets off scott free I would find that extremely fucked up. I can understand that there might not be enough evidence for murder, but you shouldn't be able to stalk someone, get in a fight with them, shoot them, and get off free just because nobody else saw it and you say that they are the one that started it. On July 12 2013 07:55 Blacktion wrote: Id be fucking disgusted. Even if GZ is guilty, the prosecution has got nowhere near beyond reasonable doubt. Theres no way the jury can convict without some serious bullshit behind closed doors. I find your attitude disgusting, even if it is technically correct. "Even if he is guilty, I would be disgusted if the legal system manages to convict someone without absolute proof" Without the first part I wouldn't have a problem, but saying that you would prefer someone who is guilty to get off just because there is not enough evidence available seems messed up to me. | ||
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ConGee
318 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:49 farvacola wrote: There is a difference between what the judge allows and the verdict the jury renders....... Meant that the jury should drop the charge, don't know why I used 'stricken'. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:55 Myrddraal wrote: Either way, if Zimmerman gets off scott free I would find that extremely fucked up. I can understand that there might not be enough evidence for murder, but you shouldn't be able to stalk someone, get in a fight with them, shoot them, and get off free just because nobody else saw it and you say that they are the one that started it. You can convict an infinite number of innocent people if you use this like of thinking. That's why the standards for conviction are so high. The story, as Zimmerman tells it, holds up quite well. He most certainly should not go to jail on the opinion that he shouldn't have been following a suspected burglar. | ||
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