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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
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On March 29 2012 04:00 jdsowa wrote:
I am of the mind that this resentment only helps to further hold the black community back from embracing mainstream society and all that it represents (law abiding, school attending, respectful dress and public behavior, etc.).
I am of the mind that this incident further drives a wedge and divides too cultures -- Black and White -- that were already suspicious of each other to begin with.
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On March 29 2012 04:14 BlackJack wrote:
I think it's closer to the opposite of the Duke Lacrosse case. In that case the prosecutor was the overzealous one and it was the media that eventually helped exonerate the accused. There was also no real "victim" in that case. Here we have clearly some poor police work, with no drug test of Zimmerman and no interrogation. We also have a dead kid, so even if Zimmerman is exonerated the law that allowed him to be will be the real culprit in the mind of public opinion. The cases really aren't that similar at all, imo.
100% accurate (minus the Duke case not being victims—those kids got fucked)
Even if by some amazing turn of events it comes out that Zimmerman did absolutely no wrong, the police department was amazingly bad in all of this... however, I do think they did bring him down for a bit, but determined that there 'wasn't enough evidence' to charge him.
Secondly, that law is horseshit. Stand Your Ground should only be for your home or place of business, not potentially protecting some idiot who goes looking for trouble.
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On March 29 2012 04:00 jdsowa wrote:
If you are a young black male, and you wear a hoodie at night, in a gated community, you should expect that reasonable law-abiding citizens are going to be very suspicious about you. This is, IMO, a perfectly reasonable reaction.
It actually is not a perfectly reasonable reaction. It is pretty much the definition of racism. Do you even realise what you wrote?
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A couple of facts about this case that make it almost certain Zimmerman will go to prison:
1) In Florida, practically anyone can go and get a concealed license (33 states have since 2002 adopted Florida's licensing - not a good sign). You don't have to attend any class if you just pay a little bit more money, and then they sign you up.
2) Stanford still has open bigotry.
3) Miami-Dade has a white minority population, therefore there is reverse racism and very low tolerance of authority, and Trayvon Martin's behavioral history (prior lawful charges are not admissible in court - a favor to Zimmerman) will be taken into account and used to his benefit in this particular case.
4) The use of deadly force can only be used when you, or the life of parties with you, are in danger of great bodily harm or death. (which did not exist in this case - also a note to mention, as Zimmerman was protecting the neighborhood, you cannot use force to protect property whatsoever (Federal law).)
5) Everything being said on TV is based on stereotypes, or speculation. Education on the matter and laws surrounding will thus show you his guilt.
The facts of this case will lead to nothing more than a speculatory, but concrete case which results in Zimmerman's indictment for Murder 1, 2, 3, and manslaughter, in which they will find him guilty of at least one.
The facts of my life that make me believe this, or a credible source on the issue:
1) I'm a criminal justice major whose courses are at the Broward Police Academy (county in which Fort Lauderdale resides - just north of Miami-Dade, population roughly 1.8 million), and there have been debates in all 3 of my electives about the case for the past three weeks. I have 2 professors, one whom holds license as a lawyer in New York and Florida, New York for almost 50 years. He was a famous defense lawyer who became a judge, and judged for 17 years. The other is the police chief of the 3rd largest police department in Broward County. While most of my classmates agree that he will be found guilty, I trust my professors words the most.
2) I was born and raised right up the block from where Trayvon Martin's Miami-Dade residence was, and understand the societal pressure to find any type of guilty verdict for Zimmerman via what the media has put on the local governments.
3) I have an A license in the state of Florida, and can issue signature to applications for armed licenses for non-police, the least authority wielding license being a CWC (Concealed).
The only thing keeping this out of court as of now is the inability to find an impartial judge and jury to try the case in a city where he has been not convicted of several suspected crimes, speculation stating that his father, a retired judge, being the soul reason for a lack of conviction
Disclaimer: This is nothing but my opinion in relevance to the case, and this thread respective to TeamLiquid and the moderation which has stated a strict policy of appropriation in said thread.
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Having recently served on a jury (Oregon, so some things may not apply), this case seems eerily familiar. Should no hard evidence be found, this will degrade into a he-said/she-said sort of case. What happened in my experience was that one of the parties sabotaged their own story by providing conflicting accounts of what had happened, and by the order of the judge, one is able to ignore the entirety of one's testimony if one's story is found to lack integrity, which can occur if the story changes, if it conflicts with what evidence is solid, or if it is found to be untruthful. (through the reasonable logic of the jurors).
Chances are that the actions of either party will have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the highest level of certainty allowed in the legal system, and will likely hinge on pre-gunshot assault or post-gunshot assault.
The social issues that will be tied to the case are overly touted as the entire reason for the case and the other issues surrounding, but I can tell you from sitting in the jury room, that at least with my jury, that was the last thing on our mind. The jury selection process tries to remove any people with preconceived notions about the case. Mostly the weight on our minds were: Do we punish this guy and ruin his life for this thing that he maybe did.
What is kinda funny though is that proof beyond a reasonable doubt can still be found with second-hand accounts. One just has to look at the actions of the people and the possible notions behind those actions. Eventually a conclusion can be made, as long as there is no reasonable doubt.
I don't really have much of an opinion on the case. Did a black guy shunpo behind the neighborhood watch guy and assault him as he came out of his car because he was bored and just looking to assault someone? Likely not. Were there some words spoke? Probably. People get amped up and do stupid things. Figuring out which one did the stupid thing first will probably be the deciding factor. The polluting of the media space is just the entertainment part for our eyes.
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On March 29 2012 03:42 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 03:34 Defacer wrote:On March 29 2012 03:30 Felnarion wrote:
Zimmerman was not outside his rights, and in fact would have been doing as he should, in CONFRONTING a suspicious individual.
Could confronting a suspicious individual make Zimmerman somewhat liable for their death? Security guards often don't have guns, because their employers can't afford the insurance, liability or training. Since Zimmerman was acting as security, doesn't that make him -- even if only to a lesser degree -- responsible? I don't think so. I think if you take away people's ability to confront suspicious individuals, you are taking a person's responsibility for their own safety out of their hands. I think neighborhood watches, regardless of their actual effectiveness, are necessary, if not only for the perceived safety benefits; it makes people feel more secure. People tend to feel safer and better when they know things are in their hands, and not in the hands of a police force they can call that they do not feel has a vested interest in their plight. So, I don't think you can make Zimmerman liable for their death based solely on his willingness to confront someone he found suspicious. Now, you can if you can prove some malice or intent here, then yeah, he's definitely liable, but just following someone, confronting them, against the direction of a 911 dispatcher? No way, that alone is meaningless, and I would argue that that alone is actually a perfectly reasonable course of action. Now, once the confrontation was made, how it was handled, that's a different monster entirely.
I have a problem with that. Zimmerman placed himself in a position where he was forced to use his gun, a position that a normal person would not likely put themselves in if they didn't have a gun. Firearms are supposed to be used for self-defense in situations where there is an immediate danger to your person and you could not just leave the scene.
Zimmerman chose to follow Trayvon instead of just leaving it up to police. If you reverse their positions and Trayvon was a member of the neighborhood watch, he would be calling 911 to report a suspicious individual following him.
There's a reason that police routinely gang up on unarmed suspects 3-5 on 1 and beat the crap out of them. It ensures that they rarely have any reason to use their guns. Regardless of how people view the competence of the police force, society should take a dim view of people who try to play cop and end up doing a terrible job at it.
Based on the information we know right now, I highly doubt that Zimmerman should be charged with murder. There's just no evidence for it. Hopefully, the media outcry does not push prosecutors to do something stupid. That said, there are laws in the books for causing death due to reckless or negligent actions. I think that is worthy of a case in court.
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A couple of facts about this case that make it almost certain Zimmerman will go to prison:
I'd be willing to bet it's almost certain he won't go to prison. All the facts that have come out have backed up his story, not that of the Martin family or the media.
If it is proven that he was going back towards his vehicle when the altercation began like he claims, he won't even be charged.
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On March 29 2012 04:00 jdsowa wrote:
If you are a young black male, and you wear a hoodie at night, in a gated community, you should expect that reasonable law-abiding citizens are going to be very suspicious about you. This is, IMO, a perfectly reasonable reaction.
The predominant reaction to this shooting has been to help encourage black resentment and to wear the hoodie in solidarity, playing naive about the fact that an article of clothing might possibly have some symbolic meaning in society.
I am of the mind that this resentment only helps to further hold the black community back from embracing mainstream society and all that it represents (law abiding, school attending, respectful dress and public behavior, etc.).
Wow, did you even stop to think about how racist this is when you wrote it?
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I find it laughable how the media portrays Trayvon as a little kid when in fact he is something like 6'1. They always find ways to contort and twist stories so it fits their needs.
That is why you can never trust the media. All they do is lie.
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On March 29 2012 04:27 Gatored wrote:
I find it laughable how the media portrays Trayvon as a little kid when in fact he is something like 6'1. They always find ways to contort and twist stories so it fits their needs.
That is why you can never trust the media. All they do is lie.
17 is young. =/
And way too young to die.
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On March 29 2012 04:23 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +A couple of facts about this case that make it almost certain Zimmerman will go to prison: I'd be willing to bet it's almost certain he won't go to prison. All the facts that have come out have backed up his story, not that of the Martin family or the media. If it is proven that he was going back towards his vehicle when the altercation began like he claims, he won't even be charged.
While a dispatcher does not have legal authority over you, their suggestion is not taken lightly in court. The notion to leave him alone via the dispatcher, while police were already on their way, is very damning. Under no circumstances could Trayvon Martin have posed a deadly threat to George Zimmerman, specifically noting the clause in which you may use deadly force in the state of Florida. The only thing Zimmerman has going for him currently, outside of the extremely damning reaction of discretion via him even drawing the weapon when being attacked 1on1 (typically you are taught that only when 2 or more able adults are attacking you - is your life in jeopardy - this is taught when acquiring your CWC), is that he only shot the gun once. + Show Spoiler [Speculation] + Speculation: I'm sure, given his father a retired judge, he has been coached in his life on how to react if he was ever going to react harshly.
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On March 29 2012 04:10 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 04:05 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 29 2012 03:59 CaptainCrush wrote:On March 29 2012 03:42 Freddybear wrote:Whatever you think of Zimmerman or Martin, the irresponsible behavior of black public figures like President Obama, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee is unconscionable. Lee posted an address which he thought was Zimmerman's on his twitter feed. But it wasn't Zimmerman's address. Now a Florida couple are being terrorized in their home by the raving mob which has been incited by these irresponsible celebrities. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/believe-it-or-not-spike-lee-mightve-outsmarted-himself/ I think this is the thing that has me the most pissed off. You are exactly right, we had far too many public black figures go completely wild over the issue when all the details havent even come out yet. Above all else, our freaking president should have known better than to open his stupid mouth on an issue as clouded as this one. The only thing Obama said was expressing condolences to the family and that everything should be investigated thoroughly. I don't see how that is a wrong thing to say, it doesn't side with anyone on the issue, or say anything untoward to either side, and done intelligently so as not to say anything he shouldn't. How is that stupid? Obama indeed said nothing of substance and does not appear to have gotten involved at all. Can't see how he could have responded more correctly.
He could have simply kept his mouth shut. Why doesn't he call for "serious soul-searching" about the causes of the deaths of dozens of young black men killed by other young black men every month?
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Well Trayvon Martin is looking less and less like the innocent young boy people initially thought he was. I wonder if this is going to affect people's views on the case, or if the bias already formed is too strong.
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On March 29 2012 04:27 Gatored wrote:
I find it laughable how the media portrays Trayvon as a little kid when in fact he is something like 6'1. They always find ways to contort and twist stories so it fits their needs.
That is why you can never trust the media. All they do is lie.
I wonder how much this reaction is caused by TL's demographics. Many people are around Trayvon's age so they won't view 17 as a kid. I'm around Zimmerman's age and to me, a 17-year old is a little kid. 6'1 at Trayvon's reported weight of around 140 sounds like a little kid who just went through his growth spurt and hasn't filled it out yet.
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On March 29 2012 04:18 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 04:00 jdsowa wrote:
I am of the mind that this resentment only helps to further hold the black community back from embracing mainstream society and all that it represents (law abiding, school attending, respectful dress and public behavior, etc.). I am of the mind that this incident further drives a wedge and divides too cultures -- Black and White -- that were already suspicious of each other to begin with.
... which boggles my mind, considering Zimmerman is Hispanic.
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On March 29 2012 04:30 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 04:23 DeepElemBlues wrote:A couple of facts about this case that make it almost certain Zimmerman will go to prison: I'd be willing to bet it's almost certain he won't go to prison. All the facts that have come out have backed up his story, not that of the Martin family or the media. If it is proven that he was going back towards his vehicle when the altercation began like he claims, he won't even be charged. While a dispatcher does not have legal authority over you, their suggestion is not taken lightly in court. The notion to leave him alone via the dispatcher, while police were already on their way, is very damning. Under no circumstances could Trayvon Martin have posed a deadly threat to George Zimmerman, specifically noting the clause in which you may use deadly force in the state of Florida. The only thing Zimmerman has going for him currently, outside of the extremely damning reaction of discretion via him even drawing the weapon when being attacked 1on1 (typically you are taught that only when 2 or more able adults are attacking you - is your life in jeopardy - this is taught when acquiring your CWC), is that he only shot the gun once. + Show Spoiler [Speculation] + Speculation: I'm sure, given his father a retired judge, he has been coached in his life on how to react if he was ever going to react harshly. Firing a weapon only once is a sign of fear, and that will be a heavy play for the defense.
Firing a weapon once is a sign of fear? I thought that when you were afraid, you were liable to go insane with the gun. You know, spray and pray? Maybe sign of self defense, but it doesn't seem like something scared people would do. Moderation is for the sensible.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 29 2012 03:30 Felnarion wrote:
I find it interesting that people are finally looking into Trayvon as much as they have been Zimmerman. I also find it interesting that he was found with a bag full of jewelry at school, also that he's been known to possess drugs.
Maybe Zimmerman was right, or at least justified in his reason to suspect, maybe Trayvon did look like he was on drugs, maybe he WAS on drugs, he had been known to possess and use them, after all. It also looks like he maybe have been involved in some burglary or theft, based on some sources. Maybe he was even involved in violent acts as suggested by the bus driver stories.
But look, I don't want the kid dead, no one wants the kid dead. I don't know who initiated the fight, maybe Zimmerman hit first and missed and then Trayvon destroyed him. Maybe something else happened no one else could know, maybe he was scared by Zimmerman's gun and tried to get the jump on him.
Some things I don't think are really up for debate:
Trayvon at some point was hitting Zimmerman, for whatever reason.
Trayvon was not the angel, tiny, kid everyone wants to think he was.
Zimmerman was not outside his rights, and in fact would have been doing as he should, in CONFRONTING a suspicious individual.
Zimmerman should not have been carrying a gun without informing the housing association and also should not be brandishing or even revealing it.
It's unfortunate that this happened, and even more unfortunate that no one ran outside to help a man who was screaming. In a situation where I can't hear gunshots, and I hear a man screaming for help outside, I'm going to take a chance and poke my head out the door to see if I can do something. Though I understand this is a part of the neighborhood that seems to be not so good, or at least in decline, so I can understand families for being scared to do so.
I disagree with one of your comments about facts not up for debate.
Zimmerman should NOT have confronted the individual, he called it in and was told not to be confrontational.
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On March 29 2012 04:38 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 04:18 Defacer wrote:On March 29 2012 04:00 jdsowa wrote:
I am of the mind that this resentment only helps to further hold the black community back from embracing mainstream society and all that it represents (law abiding, school attending, respectful dress and public behavior, etc.). I am of the mind that this incident further drives a wedge and divides too cultures -- Black and White -- that were already suspicious of each other to begin with. ... which boggles my mind, considering Zimmerman is Hispanic.
Sorry, I was responding directly to jdsowa condescending post.
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Even if you disagree that Zimmerman shouldn't have confronted the individual, it doesn't mean a murder charge needs to be placed on his head. That overzealous mistake might cost him that, but for all we know, it really was self-defense. If you're getting beaten down you can easily be killed, humans are fairly fragile -- and from what I read, the kid is actually bigger than Zimmerman. Didn't they say he slammed his head into the damn sidewalk too (Martin on Zimmerman)?
I would certainly try to kill someone if they were beating my head into the pavement. That's a huge threat to life right there.
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On March 29 2012 04:35 Freddybear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 04:10 Crushinator wrote:On March 29 2012 04:05 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 29 2012 03:59 CaptainCrush wrote:On March 29 2012 03:42 Freddybear wrote:Whatever you think of Zimmerman or Martin, the irresponsible behavior of black public figures like President Obama, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee is unconscionable. Lee posted an address which he thought was Zimmerman's on his twitter feed. But it wasn't Zimmerman's address. Now a Florida couple are being terrorized in their home by the raving mob which has been incited by these irresponsible celebrities. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/believe-it-or-not-spike-lee-mightve-outsmarted-himself/ I think this is the thing that has me the most pissed off. You are exactly right, we had far too many public black figures go completely wild over the issue when all the details havent even come out yet. Above all else, our freaking president should have known better than to open his stupid mouth on an issue as clouded as this one. The only thing Obama said was expressing condolences to the family and that everything should be investigated thoroughly. I don't see how that is a wrong thing to say, it doesn't side with anyone on the issue, or say anything untoward to either side, and done intelligently so as not to say anything he shouldn't. How is that stupid? Obama indeed said nothing of substance and does not appear to have gotten involved at all. Can't see how he could have responded more correctly. He could have simply kept his mouth shut. Why doesn't he call for "serious soul-searching" about the causes of the deaths of dozens of young black men killed by other young black men every month?
Because those cases are national news? Do you realize that the only reason Obama is being criticized is because Gingrich was in desperation mode with his campaign for Presidency and he always surges in the polls after making inflammatory race-baiting remarks so he threw out a desperate hail mary and people like you are taking the bait.
edit: i meant to say those cases are "not" national news, but I suppose it works as a sarcastic remark as well 
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