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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
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On March 29 2012 03:20 nttea wrote:
so...i read this but.... Is he still not being prosecuted?
There is alot more to the case than first appeared.
For one, the boy who got shot is not a 12 year old little kid(as the photo you see in the media would suggest). he's a 6"1 or 6"2 atheletic guy. the other one is like 5"9 and pretty pudgy. the kid is also not the little angel that the media is portraying. alot of the evidence points to him being in that neighbourhood ethier scoping out houses to rob or having robbed from that neighbourhood before. (was suspended from school for having a bunch of stolen jewelry in his locker in addition to marijuana(big deal))
The boy attacked him first, which is where the screams of "help help" on the 911 call come from (the kids dad even admits it's not his son screaming, changes his story now). not to mention that the witnesses say that trayvon was attacking him.
zimmerman or w/e his name is, has wounds all over his face and back of head. his shirt on the back was soaked with grass stains which also confirm that he was the one defending himself as the story goes to.
Apparently z-man approached the boy, asked him what he was doing there and was told to fuck off or something. then he walked back to his truck and the boy attacked him. z-man feared for his life and defended himself by shooting the boy. (i might be fuzzy on some of the facts)
The case is not nearly as clear-cut as it was when it came out, it seems like there are two victims in this report.
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I still hear "fucking phones"
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On March 29 2012 03:46 NotSorry wrote:
I still hear "fucking phones"
I agree, I also hear phones, I also hear punks, I also hear other stuff. Cleanup just seems to distort it more. But I can in no way definitively say it's "coons" though admittedly, I can't completely rule it out either.
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What legal authority did this Zimmerman have to follow Martin? From what I understand he was part of some neighbourhood watch, which would mean he had none. Is that right? So he was just some guy, pretty much harrasing some kid for no other reason than that he was a black youth who liked to look around him alot? It just sounds very much like it was Martin who tried to defend himself, and was killed for it.
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On March 29 2012 03:49 Crushinator wrote:
What legal authority did this Zimmerman have to follow Martin? From what I understand he was part of some neighbourhood watch, which would mean he had none. Is that right? So he was just some guy, pretty much harrasing some kid for no other reason than that he was a black youth who liked to look around him alot? It just sounds very much like it was Martin who tried to defend himself, and was killed for it.
The same legal authority I have to say "Hi" to you if I see you on the street? And the same legal authority you have to stare blankly ahead and pretend I said nothing. Which, coincidentally, is the same legal authority anyone has to converse with anyone.
Anyone trying to get Zimmerman simply on the basis of whether or not he should have interacted with Trayvon is going down a dead-end road. He was completely within his rights to do so, and infringed on none of Trayvon's in doing so. In the simple act of doing so. Now, the details we're missing, like HOW he confronted him are the true question. If he placed a hand on him, revealed his gun, etc, therein lie the details and therein lie the answers. But we don't know those, at least not yet.
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On March 29 2012 03:42 Freddybear wrote:Whatever you think of Zimmerman or Martin, the irresponsible behavior of black public figures like President Obama, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee is unconscionable. Lee posted an address which he thought was Zimmerman's on his twitter feed. But it wasn't Zimmerman's address. Now a Florida couple are being terrorized in their home by the raving mob which has been incited by these irresponsible celebrities. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/believe-it-or-not-spike-lee-mightve-outsmarted-himself/
I can't recall anything that Obama said that would be inflammatory or considered anything other than empathetic. How could feeling sorry for some else be unconscionable?
It's funny when we de-evolved into a world were a Black family man feeling sorry for another Black family is considered controversial, prejudiced, irresponsible or even racist.
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Regardless of anyone's guilt or innocence, I still think the time frame this occured in is one of the most tragic parts of the story. If the police had been there one minute faster, if Martin or Zimmerman had held off for one minute longer, everything could be vastly different. One minute could have been all the difference between life and death.
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I think it was more the way he played it as a race thing rather than a person that ticked people off
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On March 29 2012 03:51 Felnarion wrote:
Anyone trying to get Zimmerman simply on the basis of whether or not he should have interacted with Trayvon is going down a dead-end road. He was completely within his rights to do so, and infringed on none of Trayvon's in doing so. In the simple act of doing so. Now, the details we're missing, like HOW he confronted him are the true question. If he placed a hand on him, revealed his gun, etc, therein lie the details and therein lie the answers. But we don't know those, at least not yet.
I ask myself often if following a person, and pursuing them, is enough to justify that person 'defending themselves'.
If Zimmerman were following a white woman at night for no obvious reason, wouldn't it be understandable if that woman pre-emptively sprayed mace in his face?
Don't know.
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On March 29 2012 03:42 Freddybear wrote:Whatever you think of Zimmerman or Martin, the irresponsible behavior of black public figures like President Obama, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee is unconscionable. Lee posted an address which he thought was Zimmerman's on his twitter feed. But it wasn't Zimmerman's address. Now a Florida couple are being terrorized in their home by the raving mob which has been incited by these irresponsible celebrities. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/believe-it-or-not-spike-lee-mightve-outsmarted-himself/
I think this is the thing that has me the most pissed off. You are exactly right, we had far too many public black figures go completely wild over the issue when all the details havent even come out yet. Above all else, our freaking president should have known better than to open his stupid mouth on an issue as clouded as this one.
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Lots of outrage expressed this past week over generalizations, stereotypes, profiling, etc.
Believe it or not, we all generalize and use stereotypes on a daily basis. It's an absolutely essential part of life. If you see a poisonous snake, you probably assume that it's deadly. There is, of course, a chance that it might actually let you pet and cuddle with it, but you are probably better off assuming that it's dangerous.
People from lower income, high crime neighborhoods are encouraged to look tough so that the next person doesn't think they're soft and an easy target for harassment.
For whatever reason, when people commit robberies and other crimes, they often wear hoodies. It might have something to do with the fact that it obscures 70% of your head, making it harder for someone to identify you. Wearing a hoodie is a very good way to look tough, because of the association it has in people's minds with gangs, crime, and so forth. Other helpful things include: showing you don't give a shit about school, showing you are down to fight, showing you are down to commit crimes, carry weapons, dress and behave in a manner antagonistic to mainstream society, etc.
Another thing that we are all aware of (but terrified to acknowledge) is that because blacks are poorer on average, they commit an inordinate percentage of all crimes. Particularly, young black males.
If you are a young black male, and you wear a hoodie at night, in a gated community, you should expect that reasonable law-abiding citizens are going to be very suspicious about you. This is, IMO, a perfectly reasonable reaction.
The predominant reaction to this shooting has been to help encourage black resentment and to wear the hoodie in solidarity, playing naive about the fact that an article of clothing might possibly have some symbolic meaning in society.
I am of the mind that this resentment only helps to further hold the black community back from embracing mainstream society and all that it represents (law abiding, school attending, respectful dress and public behavior, etc.).
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On March 29 2012 03:51 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 03:49 Crushinator wrote:
What legal authority did this Zimmerman have to follow Martin? From what I understand he was part of some neighbourhood watch, which would mean he had none. Is that right? So he was just some guy, pretty much harrasing some kid for no other reason than that he was a black youth who liked to look around him alot? It just sounds very much like it was Martin who tried to defend himself, and was killed for it. The same legal authority I have to say "Hi" to you if I see you on the street? And the same legal authority you have to stare blankly ahead and pretend I said nothing. Which, coincidentally, is the same legal authority anyone has to converse with anyone. Anyone trying to get Zimmerman simply on the basis of whether or not he should have interacted with Trayvon is going down a dead-end road. He was completely within his rights to do so, and infringed on none of Trayvon's in doing so. In the simple act of doing so. Now, the details we're missing, like HOW he confronted him are the true question. If he placed a hand on him, revealed his gun, etc, therein lie the details and therein lie the answers. But we don't know those, at least not yet.
Uhm, saying hi to someone on the street is something entirely different than following someone, evidently in an intimidating way, even after being told not to by both the police and the person you are following. I am pretty confident I would be arrested in this country under the same circumstances, if the person I was following would call the police. I quite honestly do not see how this is a dead-end, it seems a pretty crucial circumstance.
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How on earth is this anything like the Duke Lacrosse Case?? That featured an overzealous DA who way, wayyyy overstepped his boundaries and straight up lied about tons of shit, in addition to a ton of flimsy evidence and testimony from a crackwhore stripper.
This is pretty damn clear cut: Armed neighborhood watchmen profiles a kid, follows him despite being told not to, gets out of car and gets into a scuffle. There are conflicting eye witness accounts, and there have been reports from one side saying that their version has been edited to fit a certain perspective.
And as fucking stupid as Florida's Stand Your Ground law is, this isn't even close to to satisfying those demands. A grown man pursued a kid, initiated the confrontation by , and then used a gun to shoot a boy after he got lumped up. Zimmerman clearly provoked the incident by following and then getting out of his car to confront the kid, and any lawyer worth his salt—which the family will surely have at this point—is going to shred the defense a new one.
The fact of who swung first won't matter a damn based on how he acted one higher authorities override the stupid hillbilly cops and step in. That Chief stepped down and there better be more to follow in that dept. Zimmerman claims self defense, there are several conflicting reports of that and they STILL didn't lock him up and bring him to court to prove himself. It is absolutely mind boggling.
The hatchet job on the dead's past is pretty damn incredible at this point.
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Zimmerman is at a lot of fault for engaging in a situation that simply was not called for. No one was in immediate danger, until he put himself forward by following and then approaching and questioning Trayvon. Trayvon, being followed by a stranger would not be in a reasonable disposition in the situation. Zimmerman didn't deal with the situation properly either, and it escalated to a fistfight, leading to the gunshot.
Zimmerman's definition of "suspicious" is also most disheartening. And it is the reason why racism plays a factor here. Trayvon was not peering into other people's windows, not loitering, not engaging in a behaviour that would rouse enough suspicion for questioning. Then why such intense suspicion on Trayvon?
How much at fault is Zimmerman? The courts will have to decide on this. I don't think Trayvon was shot for being black. I think he was under intense suspicion for being black and young, which led to the altercation, physical confrontation, to the gunshot in 'self-defense'. Trayvon could have handled it better as well, but we must remember that he was a 17 year old teenage boy.
I don't think the ultimate solution is to punish Zimmerman. I think there should be training and higher standard for neighbourhood watchmen (especially on how to deal with subconscious profiling) - or limitations, like a baton, tazer, pepper-spray instead of 9mms.
There also has to be a greater effort to destigmatize young, black men. And schools should offer escalation management training. It's an important survival skill in LA, it seems :S
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On March 29 2012 03:59 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 03:42 Freddybear wrote:Whatever you think of Zimmerman or Martin, the irresponsible behavior of black public figures like President Obama, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee is unconscionable. Lee posted an address which he thought was Zimmerman's on his twitter feed. But it wasn't Zimmerman's address. Now a Florida couple are being terrorized in their home by the raving mob which has been incited by these irresponsible celebrities. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/believe-it-or-not-spike-lee-mightve-outsmarted-himself/ I think this is the thing that has me the most pissed off. You are exactly right, we had far too many public black figures go completely wild over the issue when all the details havent even come out yet. Above all else, our freaking president should have known better than to open his stupid mouth on an issue as clouded as this one.
The only thing Obama said was expressing condolences to the family and that everything should be investigated thoroughly. I don't see how that is a wrong thing to say, it doesn't side with anyone on the issue, or say anything untoward to either side, and done intelligently so as not to say anything he shouldn't. How is that stupid?
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On March 29 2012 03:42 Freddybear wrote:Whatever you think of Zimmerman or Martin, the irresponsible behavior of black public figures like President Obama, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee is unconscionable. Lee posted an address which he thought was Zimmerman's on his twitter feed. But it wasn't Zimmerman's address. Now a Florida couple are being terrorized in their home by the raving mob which has been incited by these irresponsible celebrities. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/believe-it-or-not-spike-lee-mightve-outsmarted-himself/
I've always thought that Spike Lee was a sub-par human being. Considering that he still hasn't apologized for this just confirms it, imo. Just read his wikipedia page and his massive sub-section under "controversy" and he will probably strike most people as ignorant and obnoxious.
Congresswoman Frederica Wilson: "Trayvon Was A Sweet Young Boy, Hunted Down Like A Dog, Shot Down In The Street"
Congressman Hank Johnson: "Trayvon was executed for walking while black in a gated community"
Congresswoman Maxine Waters: "I truly believe this was a hate crime"
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On March 29 2012 04:05 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 03:59 CaptainCrush wrote:On March 29 2012 03:42 Freddybear wrote:Whatever you think of Zimmerman or Martin, the irresponsible behavior of black public figures like President Obama, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee is unconscionable. Lee posted an address which he thought was Zimmerman's on his twitter feed. But it wasn't Zimmerman's address. Now a Florida couple are being terrorized in their home by the raving mob which has been incited by these irresponsible celebrities. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/believe-it-or-not-spike-lee-mightve-outsmarted-himself/ I think this is the thing that has me the most pissed off. You are exactly right, we had far too many public black figures go completely wild over the issue when all the details havent even come out yet. Above all else, our freaking president should have known better than to open his stupid mouth on an issue as clouded as this one. The only thing Obama said was expressing condolences to the family and that everything should be investigated thoroughly. I don't see how that is a wrong thing to say, it doesn't side with anyone on the issue, or say anything untoward to either side, and done intelligently so as not to say anything he shouldn't. How is that stupid?
Obama indeed said nothing of substance and does not appear to have gotten involved at all. Can't see how he could have responded more correctly.
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I think it's closer to the opposite of the Duke Lacrosse case. In that case the prosecutor was the overzealous one and it was the media that eventually helped exonerate the accused. There was also no real "victim" in that case. Here we have clearly some poor police work, with no drug test of Zimmerman and no interrogation. We also have a dead kid, so even if Zimmerman is exonerated the law that allowed him to be will be the real culprit in the mind of public opinion. The cases really aren't that similar at all, imo.
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The case comes down to one simple fact. At this time, we do not know who threw the first punch, and there are no witnesses for the beginning of the fight besides the man who shot the kid. This is not something any of us can argue.
Sure there are witnesses to bits and pieces of the fight, but that tells us nothing except they were fighting.
It's pretty sad how much time people are spending trying to disgrace the dead child, posting pictures from his facebook, and conversations between boasting teenagers as fact of this or that. The same is true about people trying to offer bounties for the shooter, or giving out what they think (falsely) is the address of the shooter.
This is a horrible tragedy, can't we all just agree on that?
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EPT
