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On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game.
Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs.
And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period.
Face it, League is the more popular game and has sustained it's population and is GROWING unlike Starcraft 2 because it does various things correct. One, it is a free game. Two, it is fun and of high quality (despite what TL SC2 elitists want to say). Three, it has a social aspect to it unlike SC2.
Trying to say League is a bad/badly designed game is hilarious. Trying to say that it is only popular due to advertising/free to play is also hilarious. The game is fun and good. That's why people play it. Everything else is secondary. It's a great pub game, and some people like to play it competitively (I certainly don't, but that's because I like DotA's style of play more than League, not because League is some awful game). There are plenty of other trashy free MMOs out there and yet not alot of people play them. The populations are completely non-existent. How come people don't play those games? Because they aren't good. How come so many people play League of Legends? Because it's ACTUALLY good.
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On March 16 2012 02:36 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:32 Nikon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:04 koreasilver wrote:On March 16 2012 02:00 Nikon wrote:On March 16 2012 01:17 archonOOid wrote:On March 16 2012 01:11 a5mod wrote:
Teamliquid should stop supporting LoL streams. this. What's the next step supporting up and coming angry birds players? I mean just because a game is popular doesn't make it interesting to play much less to watch. I think lol can be a good complement for players that find Hon/dota too hard but in the the competitive scene there should be only room for one game. This post exemplifies why esports is a joke. In real life, you never see people shitting on 100m sprint, saying how much easier it is than running 5000m, for example. In here, you see the equivalent every day, and this is something that is done by a lot of people. The "too good for you" attitude is not something the community can afford at this point of its development, and probably never will, judging by how it is going. Sprinting is so fucking easy anyone can just run around a track, right? Yeah man, 100m is over in like 10 seconds. 5000m lasts around 13 minutes. You have to pace yourself and save enough strength that you're able to make the final push without falling so far behind that your final push is meaningless. I have to say 100m has a really low skill cap and is for casuals. (Obviously, this is sarcasm.) On March 16 2012 02:13 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 02:00 Nikon wrote:On March 16 2012 01:17 archonOOid wrote:On March 16 2012 01:11 a5mod wrote:
Teamliquid should stop supporting LoL streams. this. What's the next step supporting up and coming angry birds players? I mean just because a game is popular doesn't make it interesting to play much less to watch. I think lol can be a good complement for players that find Hon/dota too hard but in the the competitive scene there should be only room for one game. This post exemplifies why esports is a joke. In real life, you never see people shitting on 100m sprint, saying how much easier it is than running 5000m, for example. In here, you see the equivalent every day, and this is something that is done by a lot of people. The "too good for you" attitude is not something the community can afford at this point of its development, and probably never will, judging by how it is going. Dude... pretty sure avid sport fans do that shit all the time.. No, not really. There's the MY TEAM > YOUR TEAM people, but those exist in every sport and you can't actually fault them for anything. Just take a look at the fighting games community. Their tournaments have like 1500 different games together and nobody complains about game X being much easier. I'm beginning to understand why they're wary of being bagged in with the esports crowd. Uh no. There's that whole football vs soccer thing where people are calling each other grass fairies / shit talking / beating the shit out of each other IRL. Pretty much way worse than any shit people pull with video games. Or even the sports vs esports stuff during barcrafts. Dunno where you've been all these years.
I hope you realise that I don't live in the USA. In my country, there's no antagonisation between football and American football going on. True, the American variant is not as popular, since we're in Europe and have traditionally grown up on regular footy, but nevertheless it is accepted as a legit sport.
As for the barcraft sports vs esports stuff, that issue is a much older and pertains to old man think that is being perpetuated through kids that have been raised to think that computer games are a waste of time. It will fix itself after a while, but there's not that much you can do by directly arguing at the moment.
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On March 16 2012 02:45 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs. And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period.
It's not dying rapidly...
I could say that the Starcraft 2 player base is getting smaller and smaller but the whole scene is not going to be gone as fast as you say.
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On March 15 2012 10:49 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 10:30 MaestroSC wrote:
Saying dumb crap like "its too easy" "its boring" "its not good to watch" "its not competitive" is a joke when it pulls better numbers than any other esport currently.... seriously some of the posts on here are completely ludicrous garbage writting by self-righteous self-centered windbags.
you can't argue with just numbers. wow also had big numbers (really big), everyone said it's bad to watch, and where is wow now ? lols big advantage is that it's free, more accessible and prob more fun than wow. but it's still bad to spectate. and if you want to argue only with numbers you could also say britney spears makes better music than anything below her sales. Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 10:30 HeavenS wrote:
in sc2 you have to wait like 15 minutes for the action to start, while both players try and max because theyre afraid of committing to early agression and losing it all. you clearly watched the wrong games or you didn't observed properly. most games are quite action packed. zvp might be the only one that is quite dull. yes bw was better, but sc2 is still action packed.
To an outsider, or someone who doesn't play a lot of sc2, no, it's not action packed. It's really boring early on, although there are exceptions. Though he is wrong about it being 15min, it's a lot shorter than that.
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On March 16 2012 02:51 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:45 superstartran wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:On March 15 2012 23:18 Exempt. wrote:
There are a lot of posts and arguments I can't address nor does addressing them accomplish my points. I hope everyone will be able to go into reading this post in a rational sense without getting heavily invested in emotions. Emotionality, although impossible to ridden of, can reasonably be lessened to an extent as to help logic true for atleast a decent discussion.
I hope everyone from this point can discuss an argument with avoidance of emotion in an attempt to give a discussion that is useful. At the very least I have accomplished my point of simply throwing my ideas out not to prove that I'm correct, but
merely providing an alternate possibility that some agree with. In the end of this it does not matter whether I'm right or wrong, nor does it matter if any of you are correct. That's not the point of argument.
As thus since there is no emotional outcome of this discussion, and little reason in pointing out semantics and sensationalism of proposed ideas. I'm sure people can point out the common sense behind these ideas and that their overall idea is the obvious, true, and meaningful idea.
And with that, I believe that the problem is:
People blindly believe that it's impossible to reach a skillcap. Which is a highly silly assumption. There is nothing that proves human beings CANNOT perfect something.
The reason why this matters is that the game won't last long enough if isn't difficult enough to be competitive enough to warrant spectation for the game. This hurts the business in esports, thus hurting esports, and possibly ruining something i've grown to love.
I think the majority of problems is that people are viewing the concepts of skill, knowledge, and skillcaps in somewhat incorrect ways.
Skill isn't the result of knowledge, knowledge is just a means as a basic tool to allow access to skill.
And a skillcap is simply the highest possible peak human beings can achieve. In which case you could argue that Broodwar was somewhat "solved" or neared it's skillcap as it's highly unlikely for another human being to achieve a higher level of "skill" than Flash, etc.
A high level of all three result in the ability of the game to become an esport as their is a higher level of interest in spectating. As well, the measureability of all three result in our terminology of the competition of the game.
In which case under these definitions we can definitely measure the difficulty, spectatability, and competitive nature of any video game, including League of Legends. There is no reason saying we CANT argue these points.
you are really trying too hard man You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 23:20 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 22:52 SmoKim wrote:
Why the FUCK is every fucking thing regarding the games we enjoy an act of war where everyone picks a side and throw shit against one another?
Great news for LoL, nothings changed for BW, SC2 still going. Can't we just be happy/passive about it? Because theirs absolutely NOTHING wrong with arguing, it's people like you who get so emotionally involved that ruin the experience for everyone else. Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. Everything leading up to teamfights is infinitely more important than the teamfight itself. If you're jungler does his job properly and secures dragons/puts two lanes behind you already have the game won before any real teamfight occurs. And two, Starcraft 2 is a badly designed game and the whole nation of Korea recognizes it. The only reason why it stays alive in the West is because of some unknown elitist reasoning that people keep thinking it is a great game. The game is dying rapidly, and without your casual fan base your game flat out loses sponsors. Without sponsors, your game dies, period. It's not dying rapidly... I could say that the Starcraft 2 player base is getting smaller and smaller but the whole scene is not going to be gone as fast as you say.
Casual fan base is everything when it comes to sponsors. Without sponsors, your competitive gaming community will die. Period. Warcraft 3 suffered the same fate, but much slower due to the fact that the player base was sustained for quite sometime due to DotA and various other factors (such as it actually being a legitimately fun team game unlike SC2).
If you look at peak numbers for the NA/Korean servers you'll find that it's going down rapidly. People are moving on because the game simply cannot hold their attention, because it's not good enough of a game.
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On March 16 2012 02:43 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 02:08 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 01:39 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:
[quote]
you are really trying too hard man
You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
[quote]
Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. To follow up on your follow up I would like to point out that your experience with LoL appears to be very lacking as you only describe one of the ways to play the game. In your limited assessment of how LoL is played you have missed an ENTIRE playstyle called split-pushing that focuses on avoiding team fights altogether, knowing this it is difficult for me to agree with your very narrow view of "The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game." If you had put more effort into researching your argument rather than arguing it, you would find that your argument is composed of many glaring flaws that individuals who are more experienced with your subject matter (LoL) will recognize with ease. Also to address the myth of skill cap I pose you the question of" what if anything has ever hit a skill cap?" I for one believe it is impossible to hit a skill cap. You can only ever approach a skill cap never hit it, think of it as an asymptote on a graph. I'm aware of split pushing. Pretty much one of the only ways I play the game is master yi, zilean, and anivia. In my argument I also talked about the problems of pushing in my portion of 10 skillcapped players 5v5. Since you misconstrued my arguments you've made assumptions on how to interpret the information I gave. You think I really would lack understanding of the game if I went through all the effort of defending myself the last 20 pages? Common sense would say I obviously feel confident about my knowledge of the game in this case. Whether or not skillcaps can be reached is theoretical, it's been discussed and might as well be discarded for lack of evidence. Even if I didn't address split push in my previous post the fact that the only solution to the problem is to split push even further proves my point of the simplicity of the game. In which case my points of how players have few mechanical skills to focus on and perfect come into play and into my conclusion that the skillcap of LoL can be reached or at the very least closest to attainable compared to any other competitive gaming. Making it a shit game for competitive play. I believe you have misunderstood my post as I was simply pointing out that your assumption that a game of LoL rides entirely on a late game team fight is false. You now also state that the only way to avoid team fights is to split push; retreating from the things you implied earlier; however even in this area you have once again made incorrect assumptions. I had only provided one piece of proof (split-pushing) because I believed it was going to be sufficient to enlighten you, however I can see that was a mistake so I will now present you with 2 more ways to avoid team fights. Solution Number One: Poke compositions; Poke compositions are teams of heroes put together to try to whittle the opposing team down before a team fight occurs. So how does this prevent team fights? you may ask, simple because an injured team will not engage a healthy one for lack of advantage a team fight will not occur. Solution Number Two: Kiting compositions; Similar to Poke Compositions these teams work to avoid a full team fight engagement and seek to damage the opposing team and avoid being damaged through their superior mobility. I hope this evidence is enough to make you aware of the inaccuracies and fallacies you have portrayed. Finally I once again pose you the question. "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?" Nope only thing I implied was the only way to reduce emphasis of teamfights results in split pushing. Which simplifies the game. If you're going to just try and make my posts look contradictory I think we're done here, both solutions one and two are obviously part of teamfighting. You can keep trying to tell me I know nothing by acting technical but anyone looking for the overarching idea in my arguments could of found it. You chose not to and instead try to nitpick useless comments which makes me believe you actually have no argument to back on in the first place. Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight. Simplistic.
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?".
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I think a lot of people had unrealistic expectations for Starcraft 2.
The fact of the matter is even the most wildly popular video games almost always only continue being played at the professional level for a couple of years, if that. The only exceptions to this rule that I can really think of are Starcraft: Brood War and Counter-Strike, which have both stayed in the spotlight for well over a decade. The point here is that for the few games that become played professionally, their life in esports tends to be short.
When SC2 came out, a lot of us figured that it would follow in BW's footsteps or perhaps even take its place one day. This was probably unrealistic considering the nature of esports.
So, League of Legends has become the spotlight game. For those who like LoL, great! For those who hate it, don't worry; it will most likely be short lived, just like all of the other games that came before it.
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After one day reading this thread I admit being narrow-minded about the whole thing. I thought it would be bad that LoL will be #1 without thinking even why? Well the only thing that came to my mind was, because I love SC2 much more than LoL. That's not the best way to react I guess. It would be the same if I make same arguments about football/american football(NO EXCEPTIONS SOCCER IS NO WORD FOR ME)/ice hockey are esier sports compared to some other, I would be just ignorant and plain stupid.
Now I think it's just good for the eSports, I don't have to like watching LoL but atleast I admit it to help grow esports which is what will bring more attention and maybe give it more acceptable status around the globe.
Good thing for riot to get more attention, I hope they don't have to fund tournaments by themselves forever since the game itself are free and is all about micro-payments.
LONG LAST ESPORTS.
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On March 16 2012 02:43 Exempt. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:33 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 02:08 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 01:39 DonKey_ wrote:On March 16 2012 01:09 Exempt. wrote:On March 16 2012 00:46 Rorance wrote:On March 16 2012 00:06 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:53 Rorance wrote:On March 15 2012 23:36 Exempt. wrote:On March 15 2012 23:28 biology]major wrote:
[quote]
you are really trying too hard man
You think it's a bad thing to constantly try to think, argue, debate? If anything there isn't enough of it. Just people like you who can't remove their emotions and even try to attempt rationality. If people tried harder there most certainly would be less wars. And probably better games. On March 15 2012 23:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:
[quote]
Yeah dude, because picking a side and throwing shit at another side is a great demonstration of arguing. There's nothing wrong with calling the game uncompetitive because whether or not it's competitive or not, or whether you're good or bad at a game or anything else, does. not. matter. It's only flinging shit to you because you care too much about opinions of others about the game. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, like I said stop getting so emotionally involved in things that don't matter. It's like it hurts peoples souls when someone tries to tell them that what they think or believe is wrong. It doesn't fucking matter if you're correct or not. Engaging in the activity is the important part. Fuck. Wow... There is nothing to argue about, so why argue? You haven't said one constructive thing at all this entire thread. I posted this with the expectation that people would find this as good news, that e-sports are growing outside of just SC2. We aren't losing anything, nobody is... Well some people are freaking out over this like somebody is ruining your birthday party by having more people over to their house with a bigger cake 10 blocks away. I've seen amazing discussions over the years on this site, actually arguing back and forth and not fighting like a bunch of spoiled brats over something that has no effect on them. I'm just going to ask a mod to lock this thread if people keep trying to smear other games and don't have any reasoning besides "LOL DOESN'T MAKE YOU HIT BUTTONS AS FAST SO IT MUST BE EASIER!!" Well because it's just your opinion whether or not there is something to argue about. If you don't feel it's worth arguing then the obvious decision is to not engage in argument. You flinging shit because some people want to argue doesn't make you any better than anyone else. The constructive argument I placed was that I felt LoL was bad for esports as it didn't support competition that would last many years to come for reasons such as lack of differentiating skill and what not. My conclusive thesis was that because of this lack of competition LoL would just hurt esports in the long run. Not help it. The problem is people didn't go with retorting my opinion. They shit talked it. All that needed to be done with this argument was someone to post what juicyfruit said recently in his opinions as to why lol is worth competition and thus esports by talking about: - How many competitors there are - Potential for skill improvement (i.e. skill cap) - Balance if someone simply, academically brang those points up to disprove my opinions on lol as a competitive game I would of left the discussion more open-minded. But no, that didn't happen, because people can't think in a logic fashion, they get too clouded by their emotions because of the fact that I was arguing something that they certainly didn't believe in. Here's one to hoping public school systems slowly improve / college is stressed more in society so that some day a larger portion of the human race can participate in a scholarly debate that so many simply aren't prepared to do now. Okay, understood. I'm going to try and parallel E-Sports with Sports in order to draw a comparison most people can grasp, I hope. You can look at any sport that makes people compete on an individual level such as table tennis or golf and argue that they require more individual skill to succeed in. Which is of course correct, but that's only because if you make a mistake it's a lot more unforgiving then if you make a mistake in a team oriented sport like Hockey or Football (CFL/NFL variety). What hurts my head is when people say team games require less or no skill because they aren't punished nearly as hard for making individual mistakes. If a table tennis player over shoots and misses the table, bam the opponent is up a point, if you are a quarterback and throw an interception you at least have the rest of your team on the field to stop an immediate touchdown and the defense to recover the ball. Taking away individual accountability doesn't make any team based sport require less skill on an individual level, they aren't mutually exclusive. We wouldn't have individuals on teams like Wayne Gretzky or Peyton Manning getting held up on people's shoulders and being heralded as masters of their craft if individual skill didn't matter. Of course no sport really has a skill cap, it would lead to a very uninteresting viewing experience. If two people hit the skill cap in table tennis i'm sure it would be fun to watch for the first 3 minutes but after that when you realize no player is going to drop the ball so to speak it removes any aspect of suspense. I think this holds true for e-sports as well, if you had even 10 people hit the skill cap in LoL and pitted them in a 5vs5 the game would simply never end. People would realize the game isn't a viable competitive medium and move on, or Riot would fix it somehow, maybe make people maintain 300+ APM or get booted as so many people hold that number as a measure of skill these days. Balance is also a relatively easy thing to address, even in a game with as many diverse pieces as LoL has. Day[9] summed balance up really well on an episode of the Daily or SotG, I can't quite remember. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of if something is overpowered then every single person would simply use that race/class/strategy/character. That of course would mean the game would get very stale very quick and not be a viable competitive medium. Of course the volatility of LoL simply means this won't happen, if one combination of characters seems to be unbeatable somebody will find a crack in that and exploit it with another combination of characters. It's like mixing boxing, rock paper scissors and chess into a sport between two opponents who have 5 hands that act on their own but are guided by one person. Let me break that down a bit and explain... The boxing aspect comes from the fact you are trying to beat your opponent in a set number of rounds either by knocking him out or through a much longer game plan and simply out playing him. Rock paper scissors covers the randomness that is inherent in every game and sport; you, you're team and your opponents can't be predicted and individuals will have advantages over others but generally balance over all as a team. Chess simply because each person has a set amount of pieces to play with, 5 in the case of LoL with their active skills (You can go into items but shhhh), knowing what to use and when and being able to make those decisions in a split second repeatedly and accurately over a 20-30 minute game is exhausting. Doing all that is hard enough, but doing it with 4 other people while trying to act as a coherent whole is a difficult task. I agree with you when you say knowledge gives you the tools you need to improve and be skillful. You don't see many pro golfers using a driver on the green >.<' Having the knowledge to know what tools to use and when is what really separates E-Sports from sports in my opinion. Just as a followup I believe the reason why most people say team games like LoL are less skilled than sc2 is because if one is to be punished less severely on a mistake it slowly discludes the mistake over time. The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game. That's a huge problem with the game because it emphasizes the skill needed for the singular teamfight and less on everything that leads up to the teamfight. This leads to the game being less dynamic / strategic. With the game being less strategic players can then focus more practice in perfecting a smaller number of mechanical skills in the first place. When the player can then focus more energy into a singular skill at hand they can then reach the supposed skillcap for that mechanical skill and perfect it. At this point we're at a dilemma as to whether or not players can do this as there is no proof or not this is theorteically possible. My proposition is that this is possible for players to perfect the mechanical skills required in LoL and thus hit or enclose the skillcap unlike ever seen before in any other competitive esport seen yet. That's why I believe LoL in it's current state won't last as a competitive game. You bring an interesting point about if 10 players hit then skillcap then a 5v5 would never end. I think this will happen to a lesser extent. Games will continuously get longer and longer if something isn't done to fix it because pushing and ending a near even game is too highly difficult for either team to do. As well, when games get longer and longer those mistakes we were talking about before will continuously become less important -- ever much so that the team fight becomes increasingly more important. I think you are completely correct about balance, it's a pretty easy fix to design the game to be better. In order to make the game better I feel they need to rebalance the game in a way where the end team fight plays a slightly less importance in the grand scheme of things. In which case LoL certainly would be a more competitive game in my eyes. One area in which I think they could do this is revamping their summoner spell system, the game would be much more dynamic and strategic if it were possible for players to change their summoner spells during the game. This would further increase the skillcap by adding larger strategic depth to the game. The means by which they do this whether by cooldowns, gold use, whatever, doesn't matter. TL;DR: I simply don't understand why people are so vehemently against my opinions when their were thousands upon thousands of SC2 related threads stating that starcraft was designed wrong and was a bad game. Well it was, and blizzard redesigned and balanced the game until shit like 4 gate weren't so predominant. LoL NEEDS to go through this same phase in design change or it flat out won't deliver as a good competitive game. To follow up on your follow up I would like to point out that your experience with LoL appears to be very lacking as you only describe one of the ways to play the game. In your limited assessment of how LoL is played you have missed an ENTIRE playstyle called split-pushing that focuses on avoiding team fights altogether, knowing this it is difficult for me to agree with your very narrow view of "The problem with LoL is exactly that -- it discludes a lot of mistakes into a severely nasty punishment to the team in the end where one team wins a teamfight and ends the game." If you had put more effort into researching your argument rather than arguing it, you would find that your argument is composed of many glaring flaws that individuals who are more experienced with your subject matter (LoL) will recognize with ease. Also to address the myth of skill cap I pose you the question of" what if anything has ever hit a skill cap?" I for one believe it is impossible to hit a skill cap. You can only ever approach a skill cap never hit it, think of it as an asymptote on a graph. I'm aware of split pushing. Pretty much one of the only ways I play the game is master yi, zilean, and anivia. In my argument I also talked about the problems of pushing in my portion of 10 skillcapped players 5v5. Since you misconstrued my arguments you've made assumptions on how to interpret the information I gave. You think I really would lack understanding of the game if I went through all the effort of defending myself the last 20 pages? Common sense would say I obviously feel confident about my knowledge of the game in this case. Whether or not skillcaps can be reached is theoretical, it's been discussed and might as well be discarded for lack of evidence. Even if I didn't address split push in my previous post the fact that the only solution to the problem is to split push even further proves my point of the simplicity of the game. In which case my points of how players have few mechanical skills to focus on and perfect come into play and into my conclusion that the skillcap of LoL can be reached or at the very least closest to attainable compared to any other competitive gaming. Making it a shit game for competitive play. I believe you have misunderstood my post as I was simply pointing out that your assumption that a game of LoL rides entirely on a late game team fight is false. You now also state that the only way to avoid team fights is to split push; retreating from the things you implied earlier; however even in this area you have once again made incorrect assumptions. I had only provided one piece of proof (split-pushing) because I believed it was going to be sufficient to enlighten you, however I can see that was a mistake so I will now present you with 2 more ways to avoid team fights. Solution Number One: Poke compositions; Poke compositions are teams of heroes put together to try to whittle the opposing team down before a team fight occurs. So how does this prevent team fights? you may ask, simple because an injured team will not engage a healthy one for lack of advantage a team fight will not occur. Solution Number Two: Kiting compositions; Similar to Poke Compositions these teams work to avoid a full team fight engagement and seek to damage the opposing team and avoid being damaged through their superior mobility. I hope this evidence is enough to make you aware of the inaccuracies and fallacies you have portrayed. Finally I once again pose you the question. "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?" Nope only thing I implied was the only way to reduce emphasis of teamfights results in split pushing. Which simplifies the game. If you're going to just try and make my posts look contradictory I think we're done here, both solutions one and two are obviously part of teamfighting. You can keep trying to tell me I know nothing by acting technical but anyone looking for the overarching idea in my arguments could of found it. You chose not to and instead try to nitpick useless comments which makes me believe you actually have no argument to back on in the first place. Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight. Simplistic.
So pretty much the same can be said about SC2, it all comes down to how the armies engage a fight. Simplistic. But you and I both know this is truly not the case. There is a lot of stuff in the early game, mid game, and even during the fight itself well beyond the complexity of "how they engage a fight."
This same idea is true in LoL, no matter how much you feel it isn't.
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On March 16 2012 02:52 Dark_Chill wrote:
To an outsider, or someone who doesn't play a lot of sc2, no, it's not action packed. It's really boring early on, although there are exceptions. Though he is wrong about it being 15min, it's a lot shorter than that.
Quite the same feeling.
I really like to watch LoL tournaments, and HoN too. The main difference between the two, for me, is that HoN became quite boring after the 30 min mark cause of intensive farming and the fact there is no additionnal objectives like Nashor/Drake (I know, Kongor exists but he isn't used at a same objective as nashor due to the fact he is so long to kill). In LoL, one team can provoke the other one to fight, whereas in HoN it's more like ambushes.
But yeah SC2 is pretty boring to watch when you're not used to play it and don't know all of the subtlety.
And the least i can say about the TL LoL community is it's a pleasure to read them, they aren't going on crusade against XXX or YYY games cause of fanboyism.
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superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap.
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On March 16 2012 03:05 hasuprotoss wrote:
So pretty much the same can be said about SC2, it all comes down to how the armies engage a fight. Simplistic. But you and I both know this is truly not the case. There is a lot of stuff in the early game, mid game, and even during the fight itself well beyond the complexity of "how they engage a fight."
This same idea is true in LoL, no matter how much you feel it isn't.
Problem with your conclusion is your assuming that SC2 is as forgiving as LoL for your reasoning to even possibly remotely be true. It surely isn't as forgiving.
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On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that.
How do the lanes play out? How do the junglers jungle? How does each team value objectives? These are three questions that need to happen LONG before team fights that have a massive implication on team fights. You're simplifying things needlessly and then saying it's "unarguable."
Edit: And not as forgiving? You make one mistake and get pushed out of lane at level 1. You come back, your lane opponent is level 3. They can then snowball that advantage to constantly shit on you to where the only thing you can do is farm under tower. Now they've essentielly got a big period of advantage where they can take map control because you're so far behind your lane opponent giving your team to either give up these objectives for free or try and engage a fight that your team is going to lose because you blew it level 1 and are levels and tons of CS behind your lane opponent. Yeah, pretty forgiving.
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On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap.
In all of your arguments that only the last team battle matters you have neglected to mention any thing of neutral buff camps. Red and blue buff aside, EVEN if both teams were completely even to each other there is only 1 dragon and 1 baron, and these two neutral camps have a very deterministic effect on the game.
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Starcraft 2 is dying. There are significantly less players on ladder everytime a new season rolls around. If you think otherwise, then you need to get your brain checked. Everytime I log onto Starcraft 2, I am hesitant to play on ladder and custom games are a hit or miss by having someone signficantly worse than you or someone whos played a lot recently and knows the meta game very well.
Starcraft 2 is the same shit over and over and over again. Sure, it is entertaining to watch, but is much less entertaining to play. I think many people will agree with me that this game is much more stressful than fun to play.
Its like, hmm do I want to open forge expand, 4gate, cheese, or 3gate expand. Derp, I see roach warren, time to make immortals. Same shit over and over.
Whereas in LoL, you get to decide, hm... what champion out of the ~100 champs should I play. And then you get to decide, hm... what build should I go? Should I go tanky, aura heavy, or damage heavy? And then you play out the boring 15 minute laning phase until you get to the midgame or the lucky team fight late game.
These Starcraft 2 elitsts are the reason why esports isn't growing. The amount of bm some high leagued players have toward casuals is intimidating to them. Starcraft 2 only appeals to people who have past experinece with the rts or starcraft genre. There is no new blood, and therefore, its only a matter of time until the game dies.
I am a Mid-Master Protoss player on the NA Ladder. Those who say League isn't hard enough needs to be slapped for ignorance. Yes, the mechanics are simple, but the challenge is still the same. I am having a difficult time breaking 1500 elo and Starcraft is supposedly the harder game.
But I agree, Starcraft 2 is much more fun to watch. It is too stressful to play on ladder, and that is why people are quitting. League is boring to people who know nothing about the game, but try present a pro game to a bunch of people who have no idea what Starcraft 2 is, THEY DONT CARE about marine splitting or how good your blink micro is. Same thing goes for League, if you have no idea whats going on, then it is not entertaining to watch.
Its a football vs basketball comparison. And the football players are taking trash to the basketball players because they're not 400lbs and all they do is throw a ball into a hoop. They are gloating how football is more strategic and dynamic.
See how ignorant the esports community is?
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On March 16 2012 03:00 DonKey_ wrote:
I apologize, I did not intend to make your posts look contradictory, however in retrospect I can definitely see that now.
Once again I am going to have to disagree with you as I believe your definition of a team fight is inaccurate, you see a team fights occurs when 2 teams have fully engaged one another, however in the 2 examples I provided you with that is not the case at all. If you can however provide me with a sufficient reason as to how they are "obviously part of team fighting" I would be more than happy to listen.
I am not trying to "act" technical, I am trying to BE technical. Do you know of better way I should approach this?
I do not feel like I am "nitpicking useless comments" from you as the things we are discussing are core game play elements.
If you do not understand what my argument is let me make it clear for you then. "Everything you've mentioned enlightens my point that all that matters in a game of League of Legends is ultimately how the teams engage a fight"
That statement right there is what I am arguing against.
And finally once again i will pose you the question of "When has a skill cap ever been reached in anything?".
Team fight's just a word, all we're talking about is how teams end the game. Nothing will change that whether or not you want to lump it into the phrase teamfight or not.
Going in circles somewhat but in an earlier post I considered Flash in BW to likely be a skill cap because the game is so far mechanically difficult that I feel it is unlikely for any other human being to surpass his level of skill at the game, ever.
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On March 16 2012 03:15 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap. In all of your arguments that only the last team battle matters you have neglected to mention any thing of neutral buff camps. Red and blue buff aside, EVEN if both teams were completely even to each other there is only 1 dragon and 1 baron, and these two neutral camps have a very deterministic effect on the game.
Assuming teams are even it once again results in whoever wins the teamfight, thus whoever picked the team better suited for that teamfight, which results in the game being solved in the picking stage long before mechanical skill came into the question is what Im after.
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On March 16 2012 03:02 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
I think a lot of people had unrealistic expectations for Starcraft 2.
The fact of the matter is even the most wildly popular video games almost always only continue being played at the professional level for a couple of years, if that. The only exceptions to this rule that I can really think of are Starcraft: Brood War and Counter-Strike, which have both stayed in the spotlight for well over a decade. The point here is that for the few games that become played professionally, their life in esports tends to be short.
When SC2 came out, a lot of us figured that it would follow in BW's footsteps or perhaps even take its place one day. This was probably unrealistic considering the nature of esports.
So, League of Legends has become the spotlight game. For those who like LoL, great! For those who hate it, don't worry; it will most likely be short lived, just like all of the other games that came before it.
Our expectation of SC2 was that it should be good. Instead, it turned out bad. I don't understand what was realistic about it.
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LoL is fun to play but most of the competetive side of it is picks. Its not really hard to play.
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On March 16 2012 03:10 Exempt. wrote:
superstar if you think about it, If two teams are even in skill. EVEN. Then everything up to the team fight does not matter because they're even. Thus the only thing that could possibly matter is the last team battle. And in that teamfight assuming you don't have 100% perfect balance (which is most likely impossible) a team does come out on top in the teamfight. So really all the game comes down to is how to win that team fight, and that's coming up with the knowledge necessary to propagate it.
You can't argue that. That's the context we've been talking in the whole time, where teams are similar in relation to skillcap. In which case the games horrendous for competition and spectating because of the simplicity involved (resulting in players following a very memorizable routine of strategies). Even when heroes / things change simply all one team has to do is learn the knowledge of what the game results in. Because there isn't any skill, mechanical skill is too low, and thus negligible. The only factor left is player knowledge of the game and that surely can be solved and the game perfected thus reaching the highest pertain-able skillcap.
It's easy to see why you'd think so, if we suppose that you've never tried to strive for perfection in anything. I called dota's gimmicks superficial difficulty and I stand by that. It's the type of difficulty that's obvious because it's hard to do at all, compared to the type of difficulty that's obscure because it's easy to do, but hard to perfect.
Saying that a player can play a lane to perfection is ridiculous. The fact that the players have to play the lane to perfection with dozens of champions, AGAINST potentially all combinations of enemy champion + jungler, taking into account lane position, jungler threat, buy timing, which runes you have, which runes the enemy has, when to fake a gank, when to purposely make yourself appear vulnerable to ganking, your error margins against skillshots...etc...and all of that is the EASY part of the game.
So no, you have a shallow understanding of the game. You are the type of person who would never begin to understand why starcraft is hard if it weren't for pro BW players already having explored all the facets and squeezed out every small mechanical advantage they could get.
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