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On March 03 2012 14:26 EternaLLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:13 Defacer wrote:On March 03 2012 13:48 Trazati wrote:On March 03 2012 05:14 Fealthas wrote:
I don't think a child should be killed because a woman can't keep her pants on.
I hope that abortion gets some serious regulations. Employers should be able to deny because its their company, you don't have to work there.
User was warned for this post I cant BELIEVE this user was warned for this post. That is a legitamite point and argument. Sorry that some people see this in black and white and care about an unborn child who is defensless to a mother who wants to kill them. Think if your mom or dad were aborted....YOU WOULDNT EXIST. Every child is special and unique and will do special and unique things throughout their lives, who is to say NO YOU CANT LIVE BECAUSE IM IRRESONSIBLE. Anyone who defends abortion is very blind to the facts. Women get the right to choose but what choice does that leave the baby that WILL become a child and someday an adult with kids and grandkids of their own? Somtimes this world makes me sick. Are you anti-war and anti-death penalty? Because I assure you, there's a bunch or innocent and not-so innocent people with actual names and faces that get murdered all over the world in the name of freedom and justice that you probably don't give two shits about. They all have more in common with you and other humans than a three week-old fetus. Anti-abortion advocates rely primarily on 'moral authority' for their argument. Well that argument kind of sucks. I am. However, the government should have absolutely no say in anything related to employee benefits, except by enforcing the terms of the employment contract. Employers should be free to not provide any health benefits, and certainly should be free to provide any kind of health benefit they want. Birth control is not something insurance should even be covering anyway. Insurance is for risk protection, not for everyday medications. Our health care system is so perverted by subsidies, government regulation, corporatism, and medical licensing that nobody can even pinpoint the source of the problem. Get government out of healthcare and this isn't even an issue. People will get what they want to get and the market will provide choices. I don't understand why people can't view healthcare like any other necessary but market-provided service, like shoes. Everyone needs shoes, but we have a free market in those! As for being anti-abortion, it doesn't mean you are anti-woman. I still believe that the government has no right to interfere with abortions up to viability. I think that it is the moral duty of the mother to consider the life of her child. It is also perfectly okay for any doctor to refuse to provide any service he feels is morally questionable. It is even okay for any insurer to choose to cover or not to cover any procedure or medication they choose. See, when you have markets, nobody who opposes abortion will ever have to pay for one if they don't want to. Nobody who wants to pay for them, or wants to get them, will ever be denied one. Birth control is the same thing. Same with euthanasia. Markets solve problems by providing choices. Governments cause them by taking those choices away.
I love you. Unfortunately, it won't happen because the whole reason we have government with the power to control more than just what it needs to to protect the basic rights of its people is because it's considered a valid use of government to impose the will of the majority upon the minority. This is nearly fundamental to democracy, frankly.
Anti-Gay Rights activists generally believe gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry because it offends them. They see it as their business, to protect the moral fiber of America or whatever the bullshit of the month happens to be at the time. You can't just say "you mind your business and I'll mind mine" because stupid people (of which there are many) will always disagree with you on what is in fact none of their fucking business.
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The open market argument is great for people with money and a range of job opportunities, but what about poor motherfuckers who have to take whatever job they can get and cant afford the healthcare they need (i.e for abortions or contraceptives w/e). The government needs to help those that the market can take advantage of with healthcare being a massively important part of that.
We have government healthcare in Australia, its great. Think of the little people over your grandiose free market ideas.
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I can't believe this is even an issue. The republicans must be really desperate to resort to such outdated policies.
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On March 03 2012 14:53 Kielbasa wrote:
The open market argument is great for people with money and a range of job opportunities, but what about poor motherfuckers who have to take whatever job they can get and cant afford the healthcare they need (i.e for abortions or contraceptives w/e). The government needs to help those that the market can take advantage of with healthcare being a massively important part of that.
We have government healthcare in Australia, its great. Think of the little people over your grandiose free market ideas.
The argument is that the people paying for your healthcare are the ones with money. The government says "we have guns, therefore you have to pay for other people's health care." That's kinda bad.
I'm not suggesting a better system, mind you. I don't think there IS a government that can actually solve all problems (or one that can make way for solutions to all problems by getting out of the way.) I'm just pointing out that there are flaws in government health care, too, and that it's rather pointless to argue the superiority of Robin Hood economics over Laissez-faire economics when both (in addition to any compromise between them) have flaws and neither will make everyone happy.
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Canada11385 Posts
On March 03 2012 13:48 Trazati wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 05:14 Fealthas wrote:
I don't think a child should be killed because a woman can't keep her pants on.
I hope that abortion gets some serious regulations. Employers should be able to deny because its their company, you don't have to work there.
User was warned for this post I cant BELIEVE this user was warned for this post. That is a legitamite point and argument. Sorry that some people see this in black and white and care about an unborn child who is defensless to a mother who wants to kill them. Think if your mom or dad were aborted....YOU WOULDNT EXIST. Every child is special and unique and will do special and unique things throughout their lives, who is to say NO YOU CANT LIVE BECAUSE IM IRRESONSIBLE. Anyone who defends abortion is very blind to the facts. Women get the right to choose but what choice does that leave the baby that WILL become a child and someday an adult with kids and grandkids of their own? Somtimes this world makes me sick.
This thread is specifically about contraception not abortion. He was derailing the thread with a hot button issue.
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On March 03 2012 14:26 EternaLLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:13 Defacer wrote:On March 03 2012 13:48 Trazati wrote:On March 03 2012 05:14 Fealthas wrote:
I don't think a child should be killed because a woman can't keep her pants on.
I hope that abortion gets some serious regulations. Employers should be able to deny because its their company, you don't have to work there.
User was warned for this post I cant BELIEVE this user was warned for this post. That is a legitamite point and argument. Sorry that some people see this in black and white and care about an unborn child who is defensless to a mother who wants to kill them. Think if your mom or dad were aborted....YOU WOULDNT EXIST. Every child is special and unique and will do special and unique things throughout their lives, who is to say NO YOU CANT LIVE BECAUSE IM IRRESONSIBLE. Anyone who defends abortion is very blind to the facts. Women get the right to choose but what choice does that leave the baby that WILL become a child and someday an adult with kids and grandkids of their own? Somtimes this world makes me sick. Are you anti-war and anti-death penalty? Because I assure you, there's a bunch or innocent and not-so innocent people with actual names and faces that get murdered all over the world in the name of freedom and justice that you probably don't give two shits about. They all have more in common with you and other humans than a three week-old fetus. Anti-abortion advocates rely primarily on 'moral authority' for their argument. Well that argument kind of sucks. I am. However, the government should have absolutely no say in anything related to employee benefits, except by enforcing the terms of the employment contract. Employers should be free to not provide any health benefits, and certainly should be free to provide any kind of health benefit they want. Birth control is not something insurance should even be covering anyway. Insurance is for risk protection, not for everyday medications. Our health care system is so perverted by subsidies, government regulation, corporatism, and medical licensing that nobody can even pinpoint the source of the problem. Get government out of healthcare and this isn't even an issue. People will get what they want to get and the market will provide choices. I don't understand why people can't view healthcare like any other necessary but market-provided service, like shoes. Everyone needs shoes, but we have a free market in those! As for being anti-abortion, it doesn't mean you are anti-woman. I still believe that the government has no right to interfere with abortions up to viability. I think that it is the moral duty of the mother to consider the life of her child. It is also perfectly okay for any doctor to refuse to provide any service he feels is morally questionable. It is even okay for any insurer to choose to cover or not to cover any procedure or medication they choose. See, when you have markets, nobody who opposes abortion will ever have to pay for one if they don't want to. Nobody who wants to pay for them, or wants to get them, will ever be denied one. Birth control is the same thing. Same with euthanasia. Markets solve problems by providing choices. Governments cause them by taking those choices away.
Do I believe that my community is better off with "universal" healthcare, whether it be government-mandated or an affordable option on the free market? Yes.
Do I at least respect your argument? Yes.
I believe that there is some things worth paying taxes for, like roads, education, law enforcement and healthcare. I don't think of it as charity, I think of it as giving everyone an honest opportunity to succeed, so I can live in a community that isn't so desperate and miserable I have to travel in an armored car. Knowing that OTHER people have a safety net makes ME feel more secure.
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I have absolutely nothing against birth control and abortions. It makes me glad I don't live in America, it's like on the radio I heard some politician ( sorry I don't know his name ) criticize Obama for wanting every kid to get a college education :/.
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On March 03 2012 15:07 AugustDreams wrote:
I have absolutely nothing against birth control and abortions. It makes me glad I don't live in America, it's like on the radio I heard some politician ( sorry I don't know his name ) criticize Obama for wanting every kid to get a college education :/.
Alright, be fair, I doubt he was criticizing him for that, per say. Much more likely that he was criticizing him for wanting to force banks to pay for it by mandating that after a certain amount of time (with proven effort by the student to pay them off,) student loans be dropped and the banks eat the loss.
It fucks with the economy and would likely result in either HUGE increases in interest rates across all loans to make up for the loss, or the lack of offering student loans in the first place (which in turn would cause the government to force them to offer them which would in turn force the first issue, which would in turn cause the government to mandate lower interest rates which would in turn drive banks out of business which would in turn ruin jobs and make it so NO ONE can afford to go to college which would in turn make private universities go bankrupt which would in turn force government subsidy of public university... you know what, you get the picture, go read Atlas Shrugged if you want the whole story.)
Not that I disagree that education shouldn't be more readily accessible. Again, not pushing an agenda, I don't believe there's a proper way of doing things, but you gotta be fair.
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On March 03 2012 15:07 AugustDreams wrote:
I have absolutely nothing against birth control and abortions. It makes me glad I don't live in America, it's like on the radio I heard some politician ( sorry I don't know his name ) criticize Obama for wanting every kid to get a college education :/.
im glad you dont live in america as well, because you apparently have an inability to understand things people say. the concern is about who bears the burden of paying for people going to college, not whether they go to college.
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On March 03 2012 15:17 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 15:07 AugustDreams wrote:
I have absolutely nothing against birth control and abortions. It makes me glad I don't live in America, it's like on the radio I heard some politician ( sorry I don't know his name ) criticize Obama for wanting every kid to get a college education :/. im glad you dont live in america as well, because you apparently have an inability to understand things people say. the concern is about who bears the burden of paying for people going to college, not whether they go to college.
Oh, is that what he said? I thought he subsequently added that colleges were "indoctrinating" kids and then he began talking about how he was homeschooled and how the need for public education is vastly exaggerated. But, okay, obviously he was talking about something else. He certainly wasn't undermining the legitimacy of education at all; he was only talking about who has to "pay" for it.
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i so changed what im going to say.. like most heated discussions there are 2 streets and all ppl need to see that. the common ground is the medium which many dont wish to reach close too.
i know several girls when they have this "monthly thing" it really REALLY hurts them. Apparently a relief to this is BC(birth control), to help them ease the pain they get. In these eyes, i feel passing such bill might be a bit harsh for such ppl going through such pain. And trust me, ive been there several times when they are feeling this pain.. i could not for 1 sec try to explain what they were going through nor even attempt to ask how it felt.
on the other side of the street, i can see ppl abuse this and (im not sure how to say this properly) so actions with as lil or no consequence of thought on their actions. I can see this raise many issues.. its rly ez too see. If u can see some well here is what i can think of: prostitution, sex w/o condoms relying on this pill which doesnt work 100%, woman having a sense of security, the spread of desease... it can spread in the wrong way imo.
so my thoughts on this, i wonder what is the best approach on solving this issue with making sure that the public is protected, taking care of and safe.
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On March 03 2012 15:21 WOPR wrote:
i so changed what im going to say.. like most heated discussions there are 2 streets and all ppl need to see that. the common ground is the medium which many dont wish to reach close too.
i know several girls when they have this "monthly thing" it really REALLY hurts them. Apparently a relief to this is BC(birth control), to help them ease the pain they get. In these eyes, i feel passing such bill might be a bit harsh for such ppl going through such pain. And trust me, ive been there several times when they are feeling this pain.. i could not for 1 sec try to explain what they were going through nor even attempt to ask how it felt.
on the other side of the street, i can see ppl abuse this and (im not sure how to say this properly) so actions with as lil or no consequence of thought on their actions. I can see this raise many issues.. its rly ez too see. If u can see some well here is what i can think of: prostitution, sex w/o condoms relying on this pill which doesnt work 100%, woman having a sense of security, the spread of desease... it can spread in the wrong way imo.
so my thoughts on this, i wonder what is the best approach on solving this issue with making sure that the public is protected, taking care of and safe.
You really think there IS a best answer? I mean, in this case it seems agreeable that the government not worry itself over this and businesses just choose whether they want to cover contraceptives or not... that is, unless you're a hardcore Catholic who believes contraception is as wrong as murder, and see it as the government's responsibility.
For a population with such WILDLY different beliefs about everything, one solution is never enough.
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@UmiNotsuki
i never said that. i merely posted my thoughts on what i knew about the topic and asked questions. I never said one solution.. the whole world has never conceived one solution. my thoughts were based on what imo society is.. ( mb my bad for making that). and lol i am no a catholic or engaged in any religion beliefs. i was trying to show 2 sides of the streets and u put me on which side?
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On March 03 2012 15:14 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 15:07 AugustDreams wrote:
I have absolutely nothing against birth control and abortions. It makes me glad I don't live in America, it's like on the radio I heard some politician ( sorry I don't know his name ) criticize Obama for wanting every kid to get a college education :/. Alright, be fair, I doubt he was criticizing him for that, per say. Much more likely that he was criticizing him for wanting to force banks to pay for it by mandating that after a certain amount of time (with proven effort by the student to pay them off,) student loans be dropped and the banks eat the loss. It fucks with the economy and would likely result in either HUGE increases in interest rates across all loans to make up for the loss, or the lack of offering student loans in the first place (which in turn would cause the government to force them to offer them which would in turn force the first issue, which would in turn cause the government to mandate lower interest rates which would in turn drive banks out of business which would in turn ruin jobs and make it so NO ONE can afford to go to college which would in turn make private universities go bankrupt which would in turn force government subsidy of public university... you know what, you get the picture, go read Atlas Shrugged if you want the whole story.) Not that I disagree that education shouldn't be more readily accessible. Again, not pushing an agenda, I don't believe there's a proper way of doing things, but you gotta be fair.
Yeah I see where you're coming from and what the issue would be, I live in Aus and I don't really know all the details. Still, from what I've heard about this guy and his ideals I would definitely not support him xD. But this is a topic about contraception so I'll stop writing about that lol.
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It shouldn't have been such a narrow margin. It's as if our country is regressing.
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What I don't see is why employers should be forced to give their employees contraception. I understand the need for contraception, as I use it myself to great effect, but there are alternatives to contraceptive use in order to exercise birth control, mainly abstinence and condom use.
This is why I don't see why employers or insurance companies should facilitate contraceptive pills. Maybe if their indication is dysmenorrhea or some other menstruation related problem, but then the diagnosis would have to be certified by a qualified physician and this method would certainly be abused.
Birth control isn't a problem that should be insured, and it isn't something employers should be forced to give their employees. Contraceptive pills aren't the only method of birth control. In my country girls can access contraceptive pills for free in some places, but it isn't mandatory for public health providers to do so, they do so only if the region can afford to do so.
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On March 03 2012 15:37 WOPR wrote:
@UmiNotsuki
i never said that. i merely posted my thoughts on what i knew about the topic and asked questions. I never said one solution.. the whole world has never conceived one solution. my thoughts were based on what imo society is.. ( mb my bad for making that). and lol i am no a catholic or engaged in any religion beliefs. i was trying to show 2 sides of the streets and u put me on which side?
On March 03 2012 15:21 WOPR wrote:
i wonder what is the best approach on solving this issue with making sure that the public is protected, taking care of and safe.
Sorry, just... pointing that out.
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On March 03 2012 15:20 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 15:17 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 03 2012 15:07 AugustDreams wrote:
I have absolutely nothing against birth control and abortions. It makes me glad I don't live in America, it's like on the radio I heard some politician ( sorry I don't know his name ) criticize Obama for wanting every kid to get a college education :/. im glad you dont live in america as well, because you apparently have an inability to understand things people say. the concern is about who bears the burden of paying for people going to college, not whether they go to college. Oh, is that what he said? I thought he subsequently added that colleges were "indoctrinating" kids and then he began talking about how he was homeschooled and how the need for public education is vastly exaggerated. But, okay, obviously he was talking about something else. He certainly wasn't undermining the legitimacy of education at all; he was only talking about who has to "pay" for it.
It was Rick Santorum, who claimed that Obama was a "snob" for wanting everyone to go to college. His argument was that liberals want to indoctrinate the new generations and make them lose their Christian faith through college.
But that's kind of offtopic ^^
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I seriously don't understand why contraception is an issue at all. EVERYBODY uses contraception. Do the republicans really not care about losing the entirety of the female vote?
On March 03 2012 15:44 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
It shouldn't have been such a narrow margin. It's as if our country is regressing.
I like to believe there's a possibility that that isn't true as well :T
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On March 03 2012 15:14 UmiNotsuki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 15:07 AugustDreams wrote:
I have absolutely nothing against birth control and abortions. It makes me glad I don't live in America, it's like on the radio I heard some politician ( sorry I don't know his name ) criticize Obama for wanting every kid to get a college education :/. Alright, be fair, I doubt he was criticizing him for that, per say. Much more likely that he was criticizing him for wanting to force banks to pay for it by mandating that after a certain amount of time (with proven effort by the student to pay them off,) student loans be dropped and the banks eat the loss. It fucks with the economy and would likely result in either HUGE increases in interest rates across all loans to make up for the loss, or the lack of offering student loans in the first place (which in turn would cause the government to force them to offer them which would in turn force the first issue, which would in turn cause the government to mandate lower interest rates which would in turn drive banks out of business which would in turn ruin jobs and make it so NO ONE can afford to go to college which would in turn make private universities go bankrupt which would in turn force government subsidy of public university... you know what, you get the picture, go read Atlas Shrugged if you want the whole story.) Not that I disagree that education shouldn't be more readily accessible. Again, not pushing an agenda, I don't believe there's a proper way of doing things, but you gotta be fair.
You be fair. Go watch the clip. He clearly calls Obama a snob for supporting people getting a college education (he says Obama wants everyone to get one which is not true, he wants it to be ACCESSIBLE to all that have worked hard enough to get in). He then says that colleges are liberal brainwashing centers, churning out liberals by converting good religous christian folk. He also talks about how colleges strip people of their faith through brainwashing (the irony is delicious) and then goes on to promote the idea of homeschooling.
Rick Santorum is batshit crazy. He wants to ban porn, contraceptives, abortion, states that the constitution doesnt give you a right to privacy even in your own home, doesnt believe in a seperation of church and state, believes that colleges are evil and homeschooling is the answer to Americas education woes, and the list goes on. He should be deemed insane and put into an asylum. He is an embarrasment to your country. He is actually comedy material outside of America. He is literally every negative stereotype of the US rolled into the shape of a human being.
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On March 03 2012 15:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 13:48 Trazati wrote:On March 03 2012 05:14 Fealthas wrote:
I don't think a child should be killed because a woman can't keep her pants on.
I hope that abortion gets some serious regulations. Employers should be able to deny because its their company, you don't have to work there.
User was warned for this post I cant BELIEVE this user was warned for this post. That is a legitamite point and argument. Sorry that some people see this in black and white and care about an unborn child who is defensless to a mother who wants to kill them. Think if your mom or dad were aborted....YOU WOULDNT EXIST. Every child is special and unique and will do special and unique things throughout their lives, who is to say NO YOU CANT LIVE BECAUSE IM IRRESONSIBLE. Anyone who defends abortion is very blind to the facts. Women get the right to choose but what choice does that leave the baby that WILL become a child and someday an adult with kids and grandkids of their own? Somtimes this world makes me sick. This thread is specifically about contraception not abortion. He was derailing the thread with a hot button issue. If you have problems with moderation, please use website feedback.
The problem with the contraception debate is it is ultimately an abortion debate. Plan B and other abortifacients are part of the mandated coverage. Pro life groups consider these treatments to be abortion, and object to the mandate on these terms. There is wider objection to post conception "contraception" than the catholic church's more narrow proscriptions on all contraception.
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