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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On May 09 2013 08:18 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 06:39 mavignon wrote:
I don't mean to come across trollish but the very fact that this subject is mostly (only?) debated in the US and other countries where it is legal to own firearms is quite telling. Because it´s a unique theme. No other country in the world has this (wished?) steady arming of their normal citizen over decades of years in the history of human mankind i can think of.
That's the way many societies were in antiquity. If you were rich enough to buy a weapon, you'd have one in your house somewhere.
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On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 09 2013 12:57 AmorphousPhoenix wrote:The rate of gun-related murders has dropped by almost half in the U.S. since the early 1990s, even though more than eight of 10 Americans say otherwise, according to a study by the Pew Research Center.
The report, released amid a nationwide debate over whether to enact new measures to curb firearms violence, shows that gun- related killings peaked in 1993 at seven deaths per 100,000 Americans before descending rapidly to 3.8 deaths per 100,000 by 2000. By 2010, Pew found, the rate had fallen to 3.6 deaths per 100,000 people.
Yet a majority of Americans, 56 percent, say gun crime is higher than it was in 1993, while 26 percent say it’s the same, according to the survey by the Washington-based group. Just 12 percent told Pew the rate was lower.
“Despite national attention to the issue of firearm violence, most Americans are unaware that gun crime is lower today than it was two decades ago,” the study said.
The mass shooting at a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school in December boosted support for gun-control legislation, according to another Pew poll, taken in January. SourceJust another example of how media attention manipulates public perception. Edit: oops, apparently a repost :/ On May 09 2013 08:18 Nachtwind wrote:On May 09 2013 06:39 mavignon wrote:
I don't mean to come across trollish but the very fact that this subject is mostly (only?) debated in the US and other countries where it is legal to own firearms is quite telling. Because it´s a unique theme. No other country in the world has this (wished?) steady arming of their normal citizen over decades of years in the history of human mankind i can think of. Can you think of ANY issue where the public is moving towards more freedom, instead of government control? Marijuana legalization is probably the only exception that I can think of. Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights. Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform. Your response, Millitron, was absolutely perfect. Nobody wants to ban high capacity/fast pouring beer cans or cars with a speedometer that reaches 150 because that is entirely illogical for a number of reasons. The only reason people want to ban the equivalent with guns is because they do not understand them. And people are afraid of what they do not understand. If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 09 2013 12:03 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 02:51 Shiori wrote:
I don't really get the comparison to alcohol. The reason people are worried about guns isn't because people accidentally shoot themselves, but because they can be construed as a threat to other people and because they affect the potency of violence by way of being accessible. In the case of alcohol, liver disease only affects the person who drinks the alcohol, not others. Any interpersonal effects of alcohol (e.g. drunk driving) that result in dangerous situations for other people are already illegal.
If we really want to get into it, I'd argue that excessive intake of alcohol is immoral anyhow, but it doesn't require legal measures because, ultimately, alcohol abuse only kills the abuser; any interpersonal affects resulting from alcohol abuse (assault, sexual assault, drunk driving, etc) are already illegal. And shooting people is already illegal too. But you don't see people calling for banning high-capacity beer bottles, or beer-cans designed to pour faster. You don't hear any outcry for banning extremely strong alcohol. Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets. Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun!
What you don't understand is that free market something people selling guns are smart enough to know when they're selling guns to criminals on the internet and they also like intrinsically care about not doing that sort of thing. And worst case scenario, they could ask the person whether or not they are, in fact, a criminal. A question like that isn't at all like an "are you 18?" button on the internet.
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On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 09 2013 12:57 AmorphousPhoenix wrote:The rate of gun-related murders has dropped by almost half in the U.S. since the early 1990s, even though more than eight of 10 Americans say otherwise, according to a study by the Pew Research Center.
The report, released amid a nationwide debate over whether to enact new measures to curb firearms violence, shows that gun- related killings peaked in 1993 at seven deaths per 100,000 Americans before descending rapidly to 3.8 deaths per 100,000 by 2000. By 2010, Pew found, the rate had fallen to 3.6 deaths per 100,000 people.
Yet a majority of Americans, 56 percent, say gun crime is higher than it was in 1993, while 26 percent say it’s the same, according to the survey by the Washington-based group. Just 12 percent told Pew the rate was lower.
“Despite national attention to the issue of firearm violence, most Americans are unaware that gun crime is lower today than it was two decades ago,” the study said.
The mass shooting at a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school in December boosted support for gun-control legislation, according to another Pew poll, taken in January. SourceJust another example of how media attention manipulates public perception. Edit: oops, apparently a repost :/ On May 09 2013 08:18 Nachtwind wrote:On May 09 2013 06:39 mavignon wrote:
I don't mean to come across trollish but the very fact that this subject is mostly (only?) debated in the US and other countries where it is legal to own firearms is quite telling. Because it´s a unique theme. No other country in the world has this (wished?) steady arming of their normal citizen over decades of years in the history of human mankind i can think of. Can you think of ANY issue where the public is moving towards more freedom, instead of government control? Marijuana legalization is probably the only exception that I can think of. Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights. Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform. Your response, Millitron, was absolutely perfect. Nobody wants to ban high capacity/fast pouring beer cans or cars with a speedometer that reaches 150 because that is entirely illogical for a number of reasons. The only reason people want to ban the equivalent with guns is because they do not understand them. And people are afraid of what they do not understand. If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 09 2013 12:03 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 02:51 Shiori wrote:
I don't really get the comparison to alcohol. The reason people are worried about guns isn't because people accidentally shoot themselves, but because they can be construed as a threat to other people and because they affect the potency of violence by way of being accessible. In the case of alcohol, liver disease only affects the person who drinks the alcohol, not others. Any interpersonal effects of alcohol (e.g. drunk driving) that result in dangerous situations for other people are already illegal.
If we really want to get into it, I'd argue that excessive intake of alcohol is immoral anyhow, but it doesn't require legal measures because, ultimately, alcohol abuse only kills the abuser; any interpersonal affects resulting from alcohol abuse (assault, sexual assault, drunk driving, etc) are already illegal. And shooting people is already illegal too. But you don't see people calling for banning high-capacity beer bottles, or beer-cans designed to pour faster. You don't hear any outcry for banning extremely strong alcohol. Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets. Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun!
I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to.
I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it.
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On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 09 2013 12:57 AmorphousPhoenix wrote:The rate of gun-related murders has dropped by almost half in the U.S. since the early 1990s, even though more than eight of 10 Americans say otherwise, according to a study by the Pew Research Center.
The report, released amid a nationwide debate over whether to enact new measures to curb firearms violence, shows that gun- related killings peaked in 1993 at seven deaths per 100,000 Americans before descending rapidly to 3.8 deaths per 100,000 by 2000. By 2010, Pew found, the rate had fallen to 3.6 deaths per 100,000 people.
Yet a majority of Americans, 56 percent, say gun crime is higher than it was in 1993, while 26 percent say it’s the same, according to the survey by the Washington-based group. Just 12 percent told Pew the rate was lower.
“Despite national attention to the issue of firearm violence, most Americans are unaware that gun crime is lower today than it was two decades ago,” the study said.
The mass shooting at a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school in December boosted support for gun-control legislation, according to another Pew poll, taken in January. SourceJust another example of how media attention manipulates public perception. Edit: oops, apparently a repost :/ On May 09 2013 08:18 Nachtwind wrote:On May 09 2013 06:39 mavignon wrote:
I don't mean to come across trollish but the very fact that this subject is mostly (only?) debated in the US and other countries where it is legal to own firearms is quite telling. Because it´s a unique theme. No other country in the world has this (wished?) steady arming of their normal citizen over decades of years in the history of human mankind i can think of. Can you think of ANY issue where the public is moving towards more freedom, instead of government control? Marijuana legalization is probably the only exception that I can think of. Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights. Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform. Your response, Millitron, was absolutely perfect. Nobody wants to ban high capacity/fast pouring beer cans or cars with a speedometer that reaches 150 because that is entirely illogical for a number of reasons. The only reason people want to ban the equivalent with guns is because they do not understand them. And people are afraid of what they do not understand. If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 09 2013 12:03 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 02:51 Shiori wrote:
I don't really get the comparison to alcohol. The reason people are worried about guns isn't because people accidentally shoot themselves, but because they can be construed as a threat to other people and because they affect the potency of violence by way of being accessible. In the case of alcohol, liver disease only affects the person who drinks the alcohol, not others. Any interpersonal effects of alcohol (e.g. drunk driving) that result in dangerous situations for other people are already illegal.
If we really want to get into it, I'd argue that excessive intake of alcohol is immoral anyhow, but it doesn't require legal measures because, ultimately, alcohol abuse only kills the abuser; any interpersonal affects resulting from alcohol abuse (assault, sexual assault, drunk driving, etc) are already illegal. And shooting people is already illegal too. But you don't see people calling for banning high-capacity beer bottles, or beer-cans designed to pour faster. You don't hear any outcry for banning extremely strong alcohol. Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets. Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it.
Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol.
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But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun!
I would just do it then, fuck Uncle Sam.
Straight-up defiance to Washington is pretty popular in GOP-controlled state legislatures and is gaining popularity among the people as well, look at New York's new gun laws which law enforcement organizations in the state have admitted are unenforceable because the vast majority of gun owners in NY simply will not follow them.
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On May 10 2013 02:45 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 09 2013 12:57 AmorphousPhoenix wrote:The rate of gun-related murders has dropped by almost half in the U.S. since the early 1990s, even though more than eight of 10 Americans say otherwise, according to a study by the Pew Research Center.
The report, released amid a nationwide debate over whether to enact new measures to curb firearms violence, shows that gun- related killings peaked in 1993 at seven deaths per 100,000 Americans before descending rapidly to 3.8 deaths per 100,000 by 2000. By 2010, Pew found, the rate had fallen to 3.6 deaths per 100,000 people.
Yet a majority of Americans, 56 percent, say gun crime is higher than it was in 1993, while 26 percent say it’s the same, according to the survey by the Washington-based group. Just 12 percent told Pew the rate was lower.
“Despite national attention to the issue of firearm violence, most Americans are unaware that gun crime is lower today than it was two decades ago,” the study said.
The mass shooting at a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school in December boosted support for gun-control legislation, according to another Pew poll, taken in January. SourceJust another example of how media attention manipulates public perception. Edit: oops, apparently a repost :/ On May 09 2013 08:18 Nachtwind wrote:
[quote]
Because it´s a unique theme. No other country in the world has this (wished?) steady arming of their normal citizen over decades of years in the history of human mankind i can think of.
Can you think of ANY issue where the public is moving towards more freedom, instead of government control? Marijuana legalization is probably the only exception that I can think of. Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights. Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform. Your response, Millitron, was absolutely perfect. Nobody wants to ban high capacity/fast pouring beer cans or cars with a speedometer that reaches 150 because that is entirely illogical for a number of reasons. The only reason people want to ban the equivalent with guns is because they do not understand them. And people are afraid of what they do not understand. If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 09 2013 12:03 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 02:51 Shiori wrote:
I don't really get the comparison to alcohol. The reason people are worried about guns isn't because people accidentally shoot themselves, but because they can be construed as a threat to other people and because they affect the potency of violence by way of being accessible. In the case of alcohol, liver disease only affects the person who drinks the alcohol, not others. Any interpersonal effects of alcohol (e.g. drunk driving) that result in dangerous situations for other people are already illegal.
If we really want to get into it, I'd argue that excessive intake of alcohol is immoral anyhow, but it doesn't require legal measures because, ultimately, alcohol abuse only kills the abuser; any interpersonal affects resulting from alcohol abuse (assault, sexual assault, drunk driving, etc) are already illegal. And shooting people is already illegal too. But you don't see people calling for banning high-capacity beer bottles, or beer-cans designed to pour faster. You don't hear any outcry for banning extremely strong alcohol. Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets. Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it. Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol.
I think the people who argue this way believe the same thing about guns as they do about cars, or any private property for that matter.
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On May 10 2013 02:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I would just do it then, fuck Uncle Sam. Straight-up defiance to Washington is pretty popular in GOP-controlled state legislatures and is gaining popularity among the people as well, look at New York's new gun laws which law enforcement organizations in the state have admitted are unenforceable because the vast majority of gun owners in NY simply will not follow them.
To be fair, New York's approach to gun regulation is so bad that it only makes sense that gun owners would act defiantly. The state gives a bad name to the cause. (We'll call it "the Feinstein Effect")
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On May 10 2013 02:45 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 09 2013 12:57 AmorphousPhoenix wrote:The rate of gun-related murders has dropped by almost half in the U.S. since the early 1990s, even though more than eight of 10 Americans say otherwise, according to a study by the Pew Research Center.
The report, released amid a nationwide debate over whether to enact new measures to curb firearms violence, shows that gun- related killings peaked in 1993 at seven deaths per 100,000 Americans before descending rapidly to 3.8 deaths per 100,000 by 2000. By 2010, Pew found, the rate had fallen to 3.6 deaths per 100,000 people.
Yet a majority of Americans, 56 percent, say gun crime is higher than it was in 1993, while 26 percent say it’s the same, according to the survey by the Washington-based group. Just 12 percent told Pew the rate was lower.
“Despite national attention to the issue of firearm violence, most Americans are unaware that gun crime is lower today than it was two decades ago,” the study said.
The mass shooting at a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school in December boosted support for gun-control legislation, according to another Pew poll, taken in January. SourceJust another example of how media attention manipulates public perception. Edit: oops, apparently a repost :/ On May 09 2013 08:18 Nachtwind wrote:
[quote]
Because it´s a unique theme. No other country in the world has this (wished?) steady arming of their normal citizen over decades of years in the history of human mankind i can think of.
Can you think of ANY issue where the public is moving towards more freedom, instead of government control? Marijuana legalization is probably the only exception that I can think of. Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights. Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform. Your response, Millitron, was absolutely perfect. Nobody wants to ban high capacity/fast pouring beer cans or cars with a speedometer that reaches 150 because that is entirely illogical for a number of reasons. The only reason people want to ban the equivalent with guns is because they do not understand them. And people are afraid of what they do not understand. If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 09 2013 12:03 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 02:51 Shiori wrote:
I don't really get the comparison to alcohol. The reason people are worried about guns isn't because people accidentally shoot themselves, but because they can be construed as a threat to other people and because they affect the potency of violence by way of being accessible. In the case of alcohol, liver disease only affects the person who drinks the alcohol, not others. Any interpersonal effects of alcohol (e.g. drunk driving) that result in dangerous situations for other people are already illegal.
If we really want to get into it, I'd argue that excessive intake of alcohol is immoral anyhow, but it doesn't require legal measures because, ultimately, alcohol abuse only kills the abuser; any interpersonal affects resulting from alcohol abuse (assault, sexual assault, drunk driving, etc) are already illegal. And shooting people is already illegal too. But you don't see people calling for banning high-capacity beer bottles, or beer-cans designed to pour faster. You don't hear any outcry for banning extremely strong alcohol. Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets. Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it. Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol.
That "only reason" covers a lot of difference.
To be fair, New York's approach to gun regulation is so bad that it only makes sense that gun owners would act defiantly. The state gives a bad name to the cause. (We'll call it "the Feinstein Effect")
To be fairer, New York's and Connecticut's and Maryland's new gun laws are all equally stupid and unenforceable and yet are held up by the powers that be in the gun-control movement as model examples for the country to follow.
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On May 10 2013 02:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:45 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 09 2013 12:57 AmorphousPhoenix wrote:[quote] SourceJust another example of how media attention manipulates public perception. Edit: oops, apparently a repost :/ [quote] Can you think of ANY issue where the public is moving towards more freedom, instead of government control? Marijuana legalization is probably the only exception that I can think of. Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights. Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform. Your response, Millitron, was absolutely perfect. Nobody wants to ban high capacity/fast pouring beer cans or cars with a speedometer that reaches 150 because that is entirely illogical for a number of reasons. The only reason people want to ban the equivalent with guns is because they do not understand them. And people are afraid of what they do not understand. If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 09 2013 12:03 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
And shooting people is already illegal too. But you don't see people calling for banning high-capacity beer bottles, or beer-cans designed to pour faster. You don't hear any outcry for banning extremely strong alcohol.
Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets. Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it. Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol. That "only reason" covers a lot of difference. Show nested quote +To be fair, New York's approach to gun regulation is so bad that it only makes sense that gun owners would act defiantly. The state gives a bad name to the cause. (We'll call it "the Feinstein Effect") To be fairer, New York's and Connecticut's and Maryland's new gun laws are all equally stupid and unenforceable and yet are held up by the powers that be in the gun-control movement as model examples for the country to follow.
Yes, well, y'all have the Tea Party and fucktards claiming things like the cost of immigration coming out to 6 odd trillion dollars, and we have overzealous blue bloods from Cali and New England who think they can change US culture overnight.
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On May 10 2013 02:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:45 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 09 2013 12:57 AmorphousPhoenix wrote:[quote] SourceJust another example of how media attention manipulates public perception. Edit: oops, apparently a repost :/ [quote] Can you think of ANY issue where the public is moving towards more freedom, instead of government control? Marijuana legalization is probably the only exception that I can think of. Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights. Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform. Your response, Millitron, was absolutely perfect. Nobody wants to ban high capacity/fast pouring beer cans or cars with a speedometer that reaches 150 because that is entirely illogical for a number of reasons. The only reason people want to ban the equivalent with guns is because they do not understand them. And people are afraid of what they do not understand. If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 09 2013 12:03 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
And shooting people is already illegal too. But you don't see people calling for banning high-capacity beer bottles, or beer-cans designed to pour faster. You don't hear any outcry for banning extremely strong alcohol.
Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets. Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it. Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol. That "only reason" covers a lot of difference. Show nested quote +To be fair, New York's approach to gun regulation is so bad that it only makes sense that gun owners would act defiantly. The state gives a bad name to the cause. (We'll call it "the Feinstein Effect") To be fairer, New York's and Connecticut's and Maryland's new gun laws are all equally stupid and unenforceable and yet are held up by the powers that be in the gun-control movement as model examples for the country to follow.
Nice dodge.
10/10
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On May 10 2013 02:54 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 10 2013 02:45 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights.
Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform.
[quote]
If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:
[quote]
Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets.
Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it. Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol. That "only reason" covers a lot of difference. To be fair, New York's approach to gun regulation is so bad that it only makes sense that gun owners would act defiantly. The state gives a bad name to the cause. (We'll call it "the Feinstein Effect") To be fairer, New York's and Connecticut's and Maryland's new gun laws are all equally stupid and unenforceable and yet are held up by the powers that be in the gun-control movement as model examples for the country to follow. Yes, well, y'all have the Tea Party and fucktards claiming things like the cost of immigration coming out to 6 odd trillion dollars, and we have overzealous blue bloods from Cali and New England who think they can change US culture overnight.
Speaking as a Californian
![[image loading]](http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p388/proteus_lives/Haters_Gonna_Hate_23.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On May 10 2013 03:00 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 10 2013 02:45 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:On May 09 2013 23:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
Negative liberty? Marijuana legalization, gay/lesbian rights.
Positive liberty? Minimum wage laws, education reform, healthcare reform.
[quote]
If you can't see the difference between a gun and beer/cars, you're willfully ignorant. The primary purpose of a gun is to kill other people. It is a tool specifically meant to cause death in other living beings (mostly, and most importantly, in other human beings), whereas cars are made for transportation, alcohol is a beverage, knives have a multitude of primary uses besides killing (and are significantly harder to kill with than guns), etc. I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people. Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault. On May 10 2013 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:
[quote]
Alcoholic products undergo pretty close scrutiny, especially new ones. Look at what happened with Four Loko! Then there's absinthe, which was banned in the U.S. until the product was changed into something entirely different. The bans on homemade liquor map pretty closely to potential future bans on 3D printing guns and bullets.
Everclear is also highly regulated and banned in many states. Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it. Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol. That "only reason" covers a lot of difference. To be fair, New York's approach to gun regulation is so bad that it only makes sense that gun owners would act defiantly. The state gives a bad name to the cause. (We'll call it "the Feinstein Effect") To be fairer, New York's and Connecticut's and Maryland's new gun laws are all equally stupid and unenforceable and yet are held up by the powers that be in the gun-control movement as model examples for the country to follow. Nice dodge. 10/10
I don't know what you think I dodged, please tell me so I can properly respond.
Yes, well, y'all have the Tea Party and fucktards claiming things like the cost of immigration coming out to 6 odd trillion dollars,
I thought the Heritage Foundation disowned that study when they found out the guy who wrote it was a racist fucktard.
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I think it's a good idea for the government to be involved even in private gun sales. According to a Bureau of Justice survey of inmates around 40% of offenders got their weapons from family members. It has some other interesting facts also under the 'highlights' section for anyone interested.
Obviously some people won't follow the law but it doesn't mean it should be ignored. Putting guns into a criminals hands should be a crime regardless of your relation to that person.
http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
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I think it's a good idea for the government to be involved even in private gun sales. According to a Bureau of Justice survey of inmates around 40% of offenders got their weapons from family members. It has some other interesting facts also under the 'highlights' section for anyone interested.
And how did those family members get the guns - probably illegally.
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On May 10 2013 03:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +I think it's a good idea for the government to be involved even in private gun sales. According to a Bureau of Justice survey of inmates around 40% of offenders got their weapons from family members. It has some other interesting facts also under the 'highlights' section for anyone interested. And how did those family members get the guns - probably illegally.
Which would be an illegal source. Which has it's own section which is also around 40%.
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On May 10 2013 03:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 03:00 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 02:49 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 10 2013 02:45 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 10 2013 02:38 farvacola wrote:On May 10 2013 02:35 Jormundr wrote:On May 10 2013 01:56 Millitron wrote:On May 10 2013 01:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 10 2013 01:37 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
I, and many other gun owners have never killed a single thing with a gun. We like to shoot paper or empty soda cans, not people.
Guns are designed to throw a tiny piece of metal at high speeds. What is in front of that piece of metal is not the gun's fault. Alcohol is "designed" to impair judgment and motor skills. If someone does something irresponsible when impaired, it's not the alcohol's fault.
[quote]
Absinthe isn't illegal in the US, and its still pretty much the same as its always been. Sure, it can't have Thujone, but it barely had any to begin with. The bans on homemade liquor have nothing to do with safety, they're there because homemade liquor represents lost tax income. Wait a second? The bans/restrictions on liquor doesn't count but the bans/restrictions on guns do? They do, but they're not passed by saying how its saving millions of children or some nonsense like that. "This bill would criminalize the private transfer of firearms by law-abiding citizens, requiring friends, neighbors and many family members to get government permission to exercise a fundamental right or face prosecution." How's that for nonsense? First off, the bill doesn't criminalize transfer. It criminalizes transfer without a background check. 2. OH NO, MY FRIENDS NEIGHBORS AND MANY FAMILY MEMBERS ARE GETTING VICTIMIZED(think of the children!) 3. Selling guns without a background check is a fundamental right? But, but, but, my uncle has a criminal record and I REALLY wanna give him my gun! I think everyone wants to keep firearms away from people who will misuse it. The question is more about the intrusiveness of background checks and whether the State has a moral right in intruding in on private transactions that it does not hold any claim to. I don't think background checks are very intrusive in the slightest and these measures are a step in the right direction, but I am curious as to what right people think the government has over private transactions in such a way that it threatens violence for non-compliance. This is an argument I've run into, and frankly I'm tired of debating it because I don't know what to say when others say it. Private firearm transactions ought to work precisely like private automobile transactions. The only reason gun rights folk don't balk at the way automobile title transfers work is because there isn't an amendment in the constitution pertaining to cars lol. That "only reason" covers a lot of difference. To be fair, New York's approach to gun regulation is so bad that it only makes sense that gun owners would act defiantly. The state gives a bad name to the cause. (We'll call it "the Feinstein Effect") To be fairer, New York's and Connecticut's and Maryland's new gun laws are all equally stupid and unenforceable and yet are held up by the powers that be in the gun-control movement as model examples for the country to follow. Nice dodge. 10/10 I don't know what you think I dodged, please tell me so I can properly respond. Show nested quote +Yes, well, y'all have the Tea Party and fucktards claiming things like the cost of immigration coming out to 6 odd trillion dollars, I thought the Heritage Foundation disowned that study when they found out the guy who wrote it was a racist fucktard.
You said that 'only reason' covers a lot of difference. Unfortunately you demonstrated no such thing. Then you went on to criticize political maneuvering at the expense of gun owners. These two things added no value to the discussion.
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On May 10 2013 03:14 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 03:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:I think it's a good idea for the government to be involved even in private gun sales. According to a Bureau of Justice survey of inmates around 40% of offenders got their weapons from family members. It has some other interesting facts also under the 'highlights' section for anyone interested. And how did those family members get the guns - probably illegally. Which would be an illegal source. Which has it's own section which is also around 40%.
Which begs the question of why new laws are needed when these things are already illegal.
And how would a new law prevent Cletus from giving his .45 to his cousin Bobby Ray in the barn where Bobby Ray cooks meth. How would a law mandating background checks 100% of the time prevent that?
You said that 'only reason' covers a lot of difference. Unfortunately you demonstrated no such thing.
I thought the comparison was so outlandish that it would be self-evident. Guns are a means of self-defense and a source of power that people place a higher priority on than the ease of transportation that automobiles provide. Which explains why there is an amendment regarding firearms and not one regarding the right of all citizens to possess a horse and buggy.
Then you went on to criticize political maneuvering at the expense of gun owners. These two things added no value to the discussion.
I see. Well, I think your lack of reading comprehension adds nothing to the discussion.
current law allows you to transfer a gun to a criminal and just pretend to be ignorant. if it became illegal to sell a gun to someone without a background check plenty of people would think twice since they would now be breaking the law.
Probably not.
What your new law would do would allow people to transfer guns illegally and laugh at the government's inability to stop them instead of pretending to be ignorant. Criminals and people who consort with criminals usually aren't too respectful of government and its laws.
Giving a gun to someone with the result being that gun is used in a crime means you're facing some big trouble. Giving a gun to someone who is not allowed to have a gun is again already illegal. I think your understanding of current law is flawed.
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On May 10 2013 03:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 03:14 heliusx wrote:On May 10 2013 03:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:I think it's a good idea for the government to be involved even in private gun sales. According to a Bureau of Justice survey of inmates around 40% of offenders got their weapons from family members. It has some other interesting facts also under the 'highlights' section for anyone interested. And how did those family members get the guns - probably illegally. Which would be an illegal source. Which has it's own section which is also around 40%. Which begs the question of why new laws are needed when these things are already illegal. And how would a new law prevent Cletus from giving his .45 to his cousin Bobby Ray in the barn where Bobby Ray cooks meth. How would a law mandating background checks 100% of the time prevent that?
current law allows you to transfer a gun to a criminal and just pretend to be ignorant. if it became illegal to sell a gun to someone without a background check plenty of people would think twice since they would now be breaking the law.
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On May 10 2013 03:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 03:14 heliusx wrote:On May 10 2013 03:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:I think it's a good idea for the government to be involved even in private gun sales. According to a Bureau of Justice survey of inmates around 40% of offenders got their weapons from family members. It has some other interesting facts also under the 'highlights' section for anyone interested. And how did those family members get the guns - probably illegally. Which would be an illegal source. Which has it's own section which is also around 40%. Which begs the question of why new laws are needed when these things are already illegal. And how would a new law prevent Cletus from giving his .45 to his cousin Bobby Ray in the barn where Bobby Ray cooks meth. How would a law mandating background checks 100% of the time prevent that?
Wrong. Under current laws, legal gun owners can legally give criminals firearms by claiming ignorance. This is the main case that the law addresses.
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On May 10 2013 00:56 -VapidSlug- wrote:
No I am not misunderstanding it, I am questioning its value. Why is "purpose" an argument if it is entirely unrelated to what actually happens. If the intended purpose for a gun is to kill people while the intended purpose of knives is not, then why would knives be more of a threat? There is a disconnect between something's purpose and the results of its use--as we can see with alcohol, cars, knives, bats, computers, pretty much anything. Otherwise, if purpose actually mattered, Ted Kennedy's car would not have killed more people than my guns.
Yes, you are misunderstanding, because you literally didn't reply to ANY part of my point.
It isn't about the purpose of the invention; it's about what the tool is effectively used for. It doesn't matter if you, through some convoluted way, rig a nuke to hold up your clothes. There are countless other tools that are more efficient at that task and the only thing that a nuke IS good at is killing people.
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EPT
