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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING:The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. |
On January 25 2012 19:33 Capped wrote:Lol, that was pretty retarded from the guy with the hammer. "Oh theres two officers with guns, trained to shoot dangerous suspects, lemme jus brandish this crowbar at em!" Then again, that many bullets was pretty excessive, 9 of them, probably meant to kill the guy. Why not put one in his leg, it would be over after that...? I doubt he could get up and come at them through the pain. If he was to reach for something, they were close enough to identify and fire first to stop the threat. Also the officers in question are pretty badly trained if you ask me, they have guns yet they get so close as to allow the guy to actually wave his weapon around threateningly at them, almost as if they were asking for it. Keep your distance and make him dispose of it and get on the ground before moving closer..really. I honestly cant understand why they were so close to the man. Either way, im neutral, the man probably shouldnt have been as stupid as he was. Brandishing weapons at armed police, then its just if its overuse of force..who knows. Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 19:23 Paperplane wrote:
Meh in this case I think the cops were actually right. It really looked like the dude was gonna attack em Actually, it looks more like him telling them to back the fuck up. He took a threatening step towards the officer behind him and then turned back, lowering the weapon. Then the shots were fired.
He obviously could withstand pain. He was shot 5 times then was still up. He was tazered in the face and was ok.
You don't shoot for anywhere but the torso because there's more chance you can miss.
You shoot his leg, he can bring out a gun and kill someone.
Don't go for chances... the dude was an idiot, he deserved to be shot. Police are supposed to do their job, they are law enforcement, if an idiot decides to go against that, they deserve to be shot. The police don't deserve to die just cus the suspect believes the law is wrong and decides to do something about it.
They could and did indeed shoot first. But no as you can see after 5 shots he was still up. He had taken drugs or something. Just cus you're shot, it doesn't mean you can't shoot back. You can be fatally wounded but still shoot before you bleed to death. That's why they kept shooting; he was still up, and back turned, so he was still a threat. Also disagree about seeing him -- he was turned around, with a big backpack, with a hoodie. They couldn't see enough.
Once a suspect shows aggression... he is a continuous threat until he's down (or so I've learned from this). If he wants to hurt you, there will still be a chance of someone dying even if he's shot 5 times. He prepared to swing and at that moment you shouldn't worry about whether or not you accidentally kill the guy but whether or not the police are alive.
like I said, it's not overuse so long as there is still a threat -- which there was. He was shot 5 times and still stood up, and he could bring out a gun and kill someone in less than a second. He had drugs (?) in him, so even if they shot him 5 more times, who knows, perhaps he would still be able to pull the trigger before dying.
Not worth taking the chance.
I agree about the officers being close though. They were at a decent distance, but you're right they had guns... could an extra meter really hurt? haha
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The fact of the matter is that the cops had guns drawn for several moments and gave teh guy plenty of opportunity to drop the hammer and submit. He didn't, and furthermore, he actually gestured at swinging towards one of them. Cops are not trained to shoot and incapacitate, if they shoot, they are trained to kill. The person I feel the worst for here is the cops, they didnt want to kill that guy I'm sure. But when your life is on the line you would likely do something very similar.
I think that much force was fully justified and I think that it's unfortunate for all parties involved but the right thing was done. I'm seeing lots and lots of posts in here from people who have probably never shot a pistol before. Even at that close range, I bet that all 10 shots did not hit the suspect, especially since he was using his other hand to restrain a dog.
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and still the "tax paying, family supporting police officers" dont need to fire 10 times and give this "scumbag" a slightly chance TO SURVIVE ( i added this for u Saryph cuz u dont get it in the first place)
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If only the cops in the US were in a good physical condition and not all short and fat, maybe we would see other means than lethal force.
Seriously whenever I see a show, program, documentary, news clip and so on with cops they are ALL fat!
Cops are supposed to indure(dunno if thats the right word), if not fear then at least respect but I understand if some people have troubles respecting, let alone fearing, a cop who is clearly obeese.
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On January 25 2012 20:25 DanceOnCreep wrote:
and still the "tax paying, family supporting police officers" dont need to fire 10 times and give this "scumbag" a slightly chance
You're right, they should have let him kill a couple people before trying to tackle him and tickle him into submission. /sarcasm
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On January 25 2012 20:27 DaCruise wrote:
If only the cops in the US were in a good physical condition and not all short and fat, maybe we would see other means than lethal force.
Seriously whenever I see a show, program, documentary, news clip and so on with cops they are ALL fat!
Cops are supposed to indure(dunno if thats the right word), if not fear then at least respect but I understand if some people have troubles respecting, let alone fearing, a cop who is clearly obeese.
What, you're saying we need physically attractive cops, that if we did they could charm the drug-crazed suspect into surrendering?
Edit: Most cops work long hours with little pay, and are forced to sit long hours in a squad car or in some other situation that allows little exercise. Though however, most cops are not in horrible shape, though sure lots are. It depends on their job.
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On January 25 2012 20:29 Saryph wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 20:27 DaCruise wrote:
If only the cops in the US were in a good physical condition and not all short and fat, maybe we would see other means than lethal force.
Seriously whenever I see a show, program, documentary, news clip and so on with cops they are ALL fat!
Cops are supposed to indure(dunno if thats the right word), if not fear then at least respect but I understand if some people have troubles respecting, let alone fearing, a cop who is clearly obeese. What, you're saying we need physically attractive cops, that if we did they could charm the drug-crazed suspect into surrendering?
If it works, sure. Fat police officers should get fired or be forced on a diet imo.
Also why didnt they send in the dogs first? They would surely be able to incapacitate the suspect and then no one would have been killed but ofc that would put the dogs at risc. Maybe a dogs life is worth more than a human life?
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@saryph cops should earn much more money, you agree on that?
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On January 25 2012 20:29 Saryph wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 20:27 DaCruise wrote:
If only the cops in the US were in a good physical condition and not all short and fat, maybe we would see other means than lethal force.
Seriously whenever I see a show, program, documentary, news clip and so on with cops they are ALL fat!
Cops are supposed to indure(dunno if thats the right word), if not fear then at least respect but I understand if some people have troubles respecting, let alone fearing, a cop who is clearly obeese. What, you're saying we need physically attractive cops, that if we did they could charm the drug-crazed suspect into surrendering? Edit: Most cops work long hours with little pay, and are forced to sit long hours in a squad car or in some other situation that allows little exercise. Though however, most cops are not in horrible shape, though sure lots are. It depends on their job.
Their job gives them a gun and a lot of power. NO excuses are accepetable.
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god i am so deeply disturbed at this point. that video of the cop being shot just made my heart drop... i really don't know what to say. i guess damn my curiosity.
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Why did they unload so many bullets into him, he was obviously in no fighting condition after the first couple of round hit him. It was justifiable to shoot the guy in that situation to defend the other cop (although if you look at him just before he gets shot you see that he isn't going to swing) but there no need to unload your clip until he is dead.
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Personally, I feel that dog's life is worth more than the suspects, the dog never got high on drugs and went around destroying people's property and threatening the lives of innocents.
The police dog was probably not sent in because it is considered an officer just like the others, and isn't sent into a situation with a drugged up guy with a melee weapon who isn't acknowledging/feeling pain. What's going to happen? More than likely he will get bit, ignore it and start punching the dog in the head, or break its neck/back. I mean god, they shot him in the torso five times and he was still standing, and the earlier taser in the face didn't phase him at all.
But hey, maybe you think it is alright if he hits a few people with that crowbar before the cops shoot, or perhaps even then you think he should be left free?
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On January 25 2012 20:34 DaCruise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 20:29 Saryph wrote:On January 25 2012 20:27 DaCruise wrote:
If only the cops in the US were in a good physical condition and not all short and fat, maybe we would see other means than lethal force.
Seriously whenever I see a show, program, documentary, news clip and so on with cops they are ALL fat!
Cops are supposed to indure(dunno if thats the right word), if not fear then at least respect but I understand if some people have troubles respecting, let alone fearing, a cop who is clearly obeese. What, you're saying we need physically attractive cops, that if we did they could charm the drug-crazed suspect into surrendering? Edit: Most cops work long hours with little pay, and are forced to sit long hours in a squad car or in some other situation that allows little exercise. Though however, most cops are not in horrible shape, though sure lots are. It depends on their job. Their job gives them a gun and a lot of power. NO excuses are accepetable.
That's an excuse for them being a little overweight, but hey, don't read the post for context, just keep on hating the police.
@DanceOnCreep I wish teachers and police were paid more personally, as teachers are in charge of our future, and police put their lives on the line everyday, while facing insults from people like many in this thread. Unfortunately our government doesn't seem to love spending money on them, but on other things instead. =/
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Police should be in good physical shape, no doubt about that. They should also be paid more...Not "Physically attractive" where the fuck did that come from, fit enough to deal with what they are trained to do. Chasing suspects? oh they got away cos of that burger. Its unacceptable tbh.
Thing is, its their lives and if they choose to be that way then who can stop them, if we fired all the police who were obese we would have even more of a problem because there is a huge lack of police as it is.
Also i dont agree on the fact that the police are "trained to kill" so thats what they do, are they animals or something? Cant they think for themselves and deal with a situation appropriately? Im not saying for this specific case, but that excuse gets used way to often if you ask me.
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Well the dude did raise his crowbar and started walking toward the police... I'm pretty sure he had plenty of warnings to drop the weapon before he got shot.
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oh look american police indiscriminately shooting everyone, nothing new move along people
User was banned for this post.
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How can you people even say such things?
There is nothing justified.. This is a murder and he must face jail time.
But from similar incidents the past years i have realized things work much more differently in the US.
I remember when a police officer in Greece decided to use his gun 3-4 years ago...
Athens was on fire for a week... Totally different situation , but if something like this happened here we would
probably have a similar reaction.
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farrrr out, before this thread i never saw a real murder, now ive seen two...........oh god gonna throw up
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There is no point in threads like these where the average Tler is to criticize police actions in deadly force situations. All these threads boil down to at the end of the day is keyboard warriors talking about how police officers are fat, unethical, cold blooded killers. And in the process, burying quality post deep within so someone actually has to looking for a post with substance. There should be some kind of policy about posting stuff like this. :\
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On January 25 2012 20:45 kaiz0ku wrote:
How can you people even say such things?
There is nothing justified.. This is a murder and he must face jail time.
But from similar incidents the past years i have realized things work much more differently in the US.
I remember when a police officer in Greece decided to use his gun 3-4 years ago...
Athens was on fire for a week... Totally different situation , but if something like this happened here we would
probably have a similar reaction.
Yeah, here if some guy drugged up charges at a police officer with a deadly weapon after not being affected by nonlethal weapons, the police will defend themselves rather than be murdered. I find it weird you value the life of someone about to kill a police officer over the life of someone defending themselves.
Edit: I strongly urge people to check out the last link posted in the mod section at the top of this thread. It really shows what can happen when police don't use force when facing a threat to themselves.
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EPT
