On February 12 2014 08:53 Sokrates wrote: Because you agree with basic trivial stuff. Stuff that almost every regular person would see the same way yet none of them claims to be a feminist. I m just talking about all those feminists out there that belive all men are evil oppressors and rapists.
Now of course you can hang on to your noble cause and bring out your definitions but then i can also ask you why all those feminists are hating on the MRAs so hard, if i wouldnt be so lazy i would look up their noble causes and i bet you would also agree. But i get it MRAs are bad people and feminists are good people.
Why arent both calling themselves humanisits? After all i m just fighting strawmen...
Also you didnt answer my question on the gender neutrality, you accidentially skipped that part i assume. Just a strawman.
Can you find all those feminists you are talking about?
And I, and many feminists hate on MRA's because they are like you; they make up their own version of a "Feminist" and proceed to fight it with all their might. Perhaps hate is too strong though, most of the time I just get a nice sense of superiority when I see that stuff
with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
On February 12 2014 08:57 Zealos wrote: And I, and many feminists hate on MRA's because they are like you; they make up their own version of a "Feminist" and proceed to fight it with all their might. Perhaps hate is too strong though, most of the time I just get a nice sense of superiority when I see that stuff
Which is not an assumption right? Because your assumptions are legit and mine arent.
On February 12 2014 08:53 Sokrates wrote: Because you agree with basic trivial stuff. Stuff that almost every regular person would see the same way yet none of them claims to be a feminist. I m just talking about all those feminists out there that belive all men are evil oppressors and rapists.
Now of course you can hang on to your noble cause and bring out your definitions but then i can also ask you why all those feminists are hating on the MRAs so hard, if i wouldnt be so lazy i would look up their noble causes and i bet you would also agree. But i get it MRAs are bad people and feminists are good people.
Why arent both calling themselves humanisits? After all i m just fighting strawmen...
Also you didnt answer my question on the gender neutrality, you accidentially skipped that part i assume. Just a strawman.
Can you find all those feminists you are talking about?
Could you repeat the gender neutrality question for me?
I think men's movements are a good idea because the story of gender relations is certainly not all about one group being oppressed, especially these days. Historically one group was denied property rights, freedom over their own body, employment and the franchise and the fight for all of those things created a social and intellectual movement, feminism. They won those fights and I'm sure we can both agree that's a good thing. However after legal equality was achieved gender continued to be a huge social and cultural issue and feminism as an intellectual movement was perfectly positioned and equipped to ask the questions about what that meant. What it means to be a man or a woman? What the importance of gender in society is? Whether there are intrinsic gender based roles (such as mother or warrior) or whether it's entirely arbitrary and a construct we've imposed upon society.
Following the end of the fight for equal rights feminists were the first ones to get their teeth stuck in to the big issues regarding gender because they were the ones who were most interested in that stuff. People who care about men's rights owe a lot to feminist theory, feminism provides the intellectual foundations for the study of gender in society. You're right, it's basically humanism and if you described me as a humanist then I wouldn't especially argue against that. But I choose to identify as a feminist because feminism is addressing the gender issues I care about and I don't see any reason not to identify with it. I care about men's rights and about gender equality in society, so does feminism, therefore I am a feminist.
My experience with MRAs is mostly comparable to your experience of feminists as man haters. I've seen a lot of really awful misogynistic shit online from people who identify as MRAs which has kind of ruined them for me. In that regard maybe I can empathise with why you seem to hate feminists. As long as they work towards treating people fairly and with respect I have no issue with them, this isn't adversarial, both sides should want the same things for themselves and each other.
On February 12 2014 09:05 KwarK wrote: Could you repeat the gender neutrality question for me?
I think men's movements are a good idea because the story of gender relations is certainly not all about one group being oppressed, especially these days. Historically one group was denied property rights, freedom over their own body, employment and the franchise and the fight for all of those things created a social and intellectual movement, feminism. They won those fights and I'm sure we can both agree that's a good thing. However after legal equality was achieved gender continued to be a huge social and cultural issue and feminism as an intellectual movement was perfectly positioned and equipped to ask the questions about what that meant. What it means to be a man or a woman? What the importance of gender in society is? Whether there are intrinsic gender based roles (such as mother or warrior) or whether it's entirely arbitrary and a construct we've imposed upon society.
Following the end of the fight for equal rights feminists were the first ones to get their teeth stuck in to the big issues regarding gender because they were the ones who were most interested in that stuff. People who care about men's rights owe a lot to feminist theory, feminism provides the intellectual foundations for the study of gender in society. You're right, it's basically humanism and if you described me as a humanist then I wouldn't especially argue against that. But I choose to identify as a feminist because feminism is addressing the gender issues I care about and I don't see any reason not to identify with it. I care about men's rights and about gender equality in society, so does feminism, therefore I am a feminist.
My experience with MRAs is mostly comparable to your experience of feminists as man haters. I've seen a lot of really awful misogynistic shit online from people who identify as MRAs which has kind of ruined them for me. In that regard maybe I can empathise with why you seem to hate feminists. As long as they work towards treating people fairly and with respect I have no issue with them, this isn't adversarial, both sides should want the same things for themselves and each other.
"So then every feminist that complains about articles or games that are not gender neutral are arguing against a strawman. Am i correct with that assumption? You just said that it doesnt matter what gender the persons involved in an article/game etc. have. But i have the impression that "gender neutrality" in such mattters are one of the top tier subjects in feminist movements. If you agree on that then i also agree on that article."
I m also not an MRA i couldnt care less about them, they are not much better than the feminists but i dont know much about them so i dont judge them yet. But seems it is the same category just the other way round.
You seem like a decent person but for me all this genderstuff is completely irrelevant, people are so crazy about their "identity politics" today that they forget about the real problems. All those people that want a change are trapped in the most ridicolous irrelevant discussions instead of focusing real problems like wealth distribution. People get mad over shit like "damsel in distress" motives in video games etc.
I m not much better after all i waste my time on discussing such subjects, seems like you can fill them with emotions much better.
The portrayal of gender in media is an issue worth talking about, both because media reflects our culture and influences it. If things such as games predominantly portray women as weak, as victims or as sex objects then that raises questions about why our society views them as that and whether games should be reinforcing that archetype. It's not something I'm hugely knowledgeable about or interested in, I guess I'd rather see freedom in terms of the narrative (if you wanna be Peach rescuing Mario that's okay too) but ultimately games are telling a story and it's up to the creators regarding what that story is. I guess I hope that rather than seeing the way women are portrayed in games and concluding games aren't for them a group of women passionate about gaming set out to make some games that tell the stories they care about. Oddly enough I think there is a similar project going on with comics. But again, it's not really my subject.
On February 12 2014 08:57 Zealos wrote: And I, and many feminists hate on MRA's because they are like you; they make up their own version of a "Feminist" and proceed to fight it with all their might. Perhaps hate is too strong though, most of the time I just get a nice sense of superiority when I see that stuff
Which is not an assumption right? Because your assumptions are legit and mine arent.
On February 12 2014 08:53 Sokrates wrote: Because you agree with basic trivial stuff. Stuff that almost every regular person would see the same way yet none of them claims to be a feminist. I m just talking about all those feminists out there that belive all men are evil oppressors and rapists.
Now of course you can hang on to your noble cause and bring out your definitions but then i can also ask you why all those feminists are hating on the MRAs so hard, if i wouldnt be so lazy i would look up their noble causes and i bet you would also agree. But i get it MRAs are bad people and feminists are good people.
Why arent both calling themselves humanisits? After all i m just fighting strawmen...
Also you didnt answer my question on the gender neutrality, you accidentially skipped that part i assume. Just a strawman.
Can you find all those feminists you are talking about?
Are you kidding me?
My assumption is based on your actions, your assumption is based on actions you appear to have made up, and refuse to back up.
On February 12 2014 09:01 oneofthem wrote: with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
the biggest problems in society are hunger, diseases and economical stagnation because of social violence, lack of a solid democratical system and government control over economy. Feminism is a luxury only first world countries can afford.
on topic, I don't really understand in what kind of world you guys live on. Asking for consent every step of the way is a sure way to never getting layed. Raping someone "accidentally" seems impossible to me. Man make the move, woman pull backs or accepts it; if you force her trough violence after she withdraws then you call it rape.
On February 12 2014 08:57 Zealos wrote: And I, and many feminists hate on MRA's because they are like you; they make up their own version of a "Feminist" and proceed to fight it with all their might. Perhaps hate is too strong though, most of the time I just get a nice sense of superiority when I see that stuff
Which is not an assumption right? Because your assumptions are legit and mine arent.
On February 12 2014 08:56 Zealos wrote:
On February 12 2014 08:53 Sokrates wrote: Because you agree with basic trivial stuff. Stuff that almost every regular person would see the same way yet none of them claims to be a feminist. I m just talking about all those feminists out there that belive all men are evil oppressors and rapists.
Now of course you can hang on to your noble cause and bring out your definitions but then i can also ask you why all those feminists are hating on the MRAs so hard, if i wouldnt be so lazy i would look up their noble causes and i bet you would also agree. But i get it MRAs are bad people and feminists are good people.
Why arent both calling themselves humanisits? After all i m just fighting strawmen...
Also you didnt answer my question on the gender neutrality, you accidentially skipped that part i assume. Just a strawman.
Can you find all those feminists you are talking about?
Are you kidding me?
My assumption is based on your actions, your assumption is based on actions you appear to have made up, and refuse to back up.
So you assume that a certain movement behaves in a certain way because of one person that isnt even aligned with them.
On February 12 2014 09:01 oneofthem wrote: with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
the biggest problems in society are hunger, diseases and economical stagnation because of social violence, lack of a solid democratical system and government control over economy. Feminism is a luxury only first world countries can afford.
on topic, I don't really understand in what kind of world you guys live on. Asking for consent every step of the way is a sure way to never getting layed. Raping someone "accidentally" seems impossible to me. Man make the move, woman pull backs or accepts it; if you force her trough violence after she withdraws then you call it rape.
And the straw men keep on coming. You can't ask for consent with every thrust and therefore asking for consent is pointless.
Also in a lot of play accidental rape is very possible. That you can't imagine it doesn't mean it can't happen, just that your experiences with sex are pretty limited.
On February 12 2014 09:01 oneofthem wrote: with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
the biggest problems in society are hunger, diseases and economical stagnation because of social violence, lack of a solid democratical system and government control over economy. Feminism is a luxury only first world countries can afford.
on topic, I don't really understand in what kind of world you guys live on. Asking for consent every step of the way is a sure way to never getting layed. Raping someone "accidentally" seems impossible to me. Man make the move, woman pull backs or accepts it; if you force her trough violence after she withdraws then you call it rape.
On February 12 2014 09:01 oneofthem wrote: with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
the biggest problems in society are hunger, diseases and economical stagnation because of social violence, lack of a solid democratical system and government control over economy. Feminism is a luxury only first world countries can afford.
on topic, I don't really understand in what kind of world you guys live on. Asking for consent every step of the way is a sure way to never getting layed. Raping someone "accidentally" seems impossible to me. Man make the move, woman pull backs or accepts it; if you force her trough violence after she withdraws then you call it rape.
I knew that this argument will come. Problem is that those feminist/identity politics latch onto movements that have a diffferent cause like occupy wallstreet or anonymos and clog it. In my country they latched onto the pirate party that was originally unideological and just cared about freedom on the internet. Now they threaten core members that dont want to have their ideological baggage with them.
On February 12 2014 09:01 oneofthem wrote: with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
the biggest problems in society are hunger, diseases and economical stagnation because of social violence, lack of a solid democratical system and government control over economy. Feminism is a luxury only first world countries can afford.
on topic, I don't really understand in what kind of world you guys live on. Asking for consent every step of the way is a sure way to never getting layed. Raping someone "accidentally" seems impossible to me. Man make the move, woman pull backs or accepts it; if you force her trough violence after she withdraws then you call it rape.
On February 12 2014 08:14 TheRealArtemis wrote: [Its like those feminist saying that stares or looks are enough to feel mentally raped and should be punished by same standard as physically rape. The article is sane, "don't touch someone if they dont want to be touched, regardless of gender" But however how noble the article is, real life feminism just doesn't say that.
In my eyes feminism is as close to a hate movement as you can get. [...]
This is a perfect example of someone constructing his own - completely divorced from reality - strawmen of "feminists" and "feminism" and proceeding to attack them. If you genuinely believe that feminists typically consider that stares should be punished the same way physical rape is punished, you are both uninformed and, quite frankly, an idiot. Like Kwark, I'm a "real life feminist", and you simply do not know what you're talking about.
On February 12 2014 09:01 oneofthem wrote: with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
the biggest problems in society are hunger, diseases and economical stagnation because of social violence, lack of a solid democratical system and government control over economy. Feminism is a luxury only first world countries can afford.
on topic, I don't really understand in what kind of world you guys live on. Asking for consent every step of the way is a sure way to never getting layed. Raping someone "accidentally" seems impossible to me. Man make the move, woman pull backs or accepts it; if you force her trough violence after she withdraws then you call it rape.
And the straw men keep on coming. You can't ask for consent with every thrust and therefore asking for consent is pointless.
Also in a lot of play accidental rape is very possible. That you can't imagine it doesn't mean it can't happen, just that your experiences with sex are pretty limited.
My point is the following: If you are driving a car on a highway and a kid chases a ball into it, you run him over and kill him its a sad thing but you are in no way responsible for a crime. On the same token, while "accidental rape" might be possible under your definition, I don't see how you can convict man for it.
You are making out drunk and sweaty, she says "use a condom", you rush it and don't put it properly and after a few thrust the thing falls off (or it was too small/big) and you do a it a few more more times because you honestly did not notice. Was it a rape? Does he have to go to jail?
My point is you can't pass moral or legal judgement on a man unless he forcefully and deliberately rapes a girl. Sex usually involves tons of guessing, drugs and and not a clear state of mind (i.e horny) so convicting a man on "accidental rape" seems terrible to me.
On February 12 2014 09:01 oneofthem wrote: with all this hurf about the evils of feminism on the internets the fact is that in real society the biggest problem is still male chauvinism or sexism. just don't be that and feminists shouldn't have a big problem with you
the biggest problems in society are hunger, diseases and economical stagnation because of social violence, lack of a solid democratical system and government control over economy. Feminism is a luxury only first world countries can afford.
on topic, I don't really understand in what kind of world you guys live on. Asking for consent every step of the way is a sure way to never getting layed. Raping someone "accidentally" seems impossible to me. Man make the move, woman pull backs or accepts it; if you force her trough violence after she withdraws then you call it rape.
And the straw men keep on coming. You can't ask for consent with every thrust and therefore asking for consent is pointless.
Also in a lot of play accidental rape is very possible. That you can't imagine it doesn't mean it can't happen, just that your experiences with sex are pretty limited.
My point is the following: If you are driving a car on a highway and a kid chases a ball into it, you run him over and kill him its a sad thing but you are in no way responsible for a crime. On the same token, while "accidental rape" might be possible under your definition, I don't see how you can convict man for it.
You are making out drunk and sweaty, she says "use a condom", you rush it and don't put it properly and after a few thrust the thing falls off (or it was too small/big) and you do a it a few more more times because you honestly did not notice. Was it a rape? Does he have to go to jail?
My point is you can't pass moral or legal judgement on a man unless he forcefully and deliberately rapes a girl. Sex usually involves tons of guessing, drugs and and not a clear state of mind (i.e horny) so convicting a man on "accidental rape" seems terrible to me.
If a guy thinks they're just having rough sex or that the girl has in some way indicated that she's fine with it when in fact the girl is not fine with it then that's accidental rape. She could be incapacitated due to drugs, too shocked by the ignoring of her non consent to act, scared about what you'll do if she cries out because a man who ignores her no could do anything or a bunch of other reasons. People really do go incommunicative or freeze up in that kind of situation. Understanding this kind of stuff is pretty important in situations where consent can get messy. Now there is not necessarily mens rea in those cases but I believe you have a responsibility to take care of your partner during sex, you shouldn't want to rape them. A basic part of that is asking for consent before you violate previously stated limits. I'm not talking about convictions or the law here, this is just a personal tangent, but as part of being a decent human being you should want to make sure all your sex is consensual, it's something you should take seriously and make sure you make unambiguous before proceeding.
Edit: I always like this clip regarding murky consent, taken from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
it's pretty easy to make out edge cases to make rape charges based on pure consent seem injust or silly, but this relies on the high stigma/punishment associated with rape. my response is always to create an intermediate category of badness that appropriately bins these cases without going all the way to rape.
after all the lack of something like 'bad sex manners' in the legal codes is a reflection of how only the most hideous sex crimes were punished back in teh day. as standards have risen there's no legal category to contain it
Harvard feminist calls for shutting down researches that are against progressive goals.
"If our university community opposes racism, sexism, and heterosexism, why should we put up with research that counters our goals simply in the name of “academic freedom”?"
EPT
