• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:39
CEST 21:39
KST 04:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins Maestros of the Game 236ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7
Community News
BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion5BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion5Weekly Cups (June 29-July 5): Solar Doubles0MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon445.0.16 Hotfix (June 30) - Balance + Bug Fixes40
StarCraft 2
General
Most successful SC2 players of Q2 2026 Serral wins Maestros of the Game 2 MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon Is the larve respawn broken? 5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event GSL CK #5 Race War HomeStory Cup 29 Vespene Cup #1 — $300+ USD, July 10 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 533 Die Together The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Starcraft vs Retro Category on Twitch
Tourneys
IPSL Spring 2026 Top 4! CSLAN 4 is Coming! [ASL22] Wildcard Qualifier [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Power Rank Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport] Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard? Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Major Shifts in the Gaming I…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5972 users

Dating: How's your luck? - Page 978

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 976 977 978 979 980 1067 Next
We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.

Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.

Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
June 21 2018 19:53 GMT
#19541
Was just thinking about this today and it dawns on me...

Generally society gives a hard time to people that have lots of sex, moreso girls than guys, but both genders get it.

BUT, if you have a hard time finding a relationship or getting sex...then you get the "there must be something wrong about him or he must have a shitty personality" stigma. This one moreso for guys than girls.

Seems like a subtle catch 22. Too much sex and your immoral. Can't get sex/relationship...must be something wrong with you.

On June 22 2018 04:30 sc-darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2018 04:10 L_Master wrote:
On June 22 2018 04:01 sc-darkness wrote:
On June 22 2018 02:38 ThunderJunk wrote:
On June 21 2018 02:32 L_Master wrote:
Mmm I'm in this place right now where I don't really want to date overall, unless I happen to meet a woman who just floors me...but I still want to work on dating/game/etc. Doesn't help that I tend to have a high sex drive.

Trying to decide how best to handle this. If you're not careful it's easy to lead people on implying your looking for more than you want.


I hear that, man. I really enjoy meeting and have fast romances with new, interesting people.

Ladies sometimes think they want a full-on devoted dating-into-marriage relationship just out of default, because it's what a majority of people say they should want. Years and years of brainwashing into that desired result is impossible to overcome on your own. But that doesn't mean it's any more right, or legitimate than what you want.

As long as you were honest at the outset, if a lady is gonna play games with you to try and steer you into what she wants, I think she's on even footing with you who are trying to keep it uncommitted. You shouldn't beat yourself up if they start using lies to keep you in tow, when you've been perfectly clear about your position in life.


Where do you find such girls? I don't see many of those on Tinder and Badoo :D


What kind are you referring to?


I don't know, they don't seem very serious so far despite social stereotype that women want to commit, while men don't. I think quite a lot of girls on Tinder aren't talkative enough, but there are others who are very easy to talk to. I guess I'm just saying there are quite a few out there who don't want anything serious yet.


Yea, I'd agree with that. I suspect the majority of Tinder users aren't on there "looking" for a serious relationship. They may or may not be open to the idea, but I don't think that's what they are searching for.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9642 Posts
June 21 2018 21:05 GMT
#19542
idk if it’s a catch 22. don’t eat enough and you’ll starve. eat too much and you’re obese.

i think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn’t think there’s a happy medium. same goes for sex. many people i think wouldn’t necessarily say too many is a deal breaker, but certainly there’s a happy medium.
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
June 21 2018 22:49 GMT
#19543
The girlfriend got approved for full time remote at her current job, and will be moving in with me across the country after doing a year of long distance. Things are going pretty well
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
June 21 2018 22:52 GMT
#19544
Grats man
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
June 22 2018 00:00 GMT
#19545
On June 22 2018 07:52 farvacola wrote:
Grats man


Thanks dude, you end up in New York or Michigan?
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
June 22 2018 00:10 GMT
#19546
Working and living in Ohio, but will be moving just across the border back into Michigan in a few months, gonna propose in a few weeks too.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
June 22 2018 00:44 GMT
#19547
she's a lucky lady
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Emnjay808
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States10665 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-22 08:30:22
June 22 2018 03:10 GMT
#19548
edit: removed
Skol
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
June 22 2018 06:42 GMT
#19549
Damn, yesterday kinda sucked. I was friend with benefits with this girl - some years later we randomly chat here and there, we go out but we recognize that we could never be together as we are way too different but we could keep in touch (sex was great).

Two days ago I write her after a long period of silence if she's gonna be at this party (which was yesterday night). She tells me yes. Fast forward to yesterday night, I was tipsy and around midnight she texts me 'so are there hopes of seeing you tonight?'. Everything's great, no?

So we see each other and she's with this strange friend of her, a girl in her study group that I never saw. We basically chat like 30 seconds - they then move to the dancefloor and I return to my group of friends. Her friend seems way too bugged - like 'hmm don't leave me alone'.

After a while, she and her friend came to dance next to me and my group of friends. Again, her friend was cockblocking all the way. At the end of the night we just said goodbye to each other, usual stuff, while her friend was looking angrily at me. Meh.

After thinking about this, I'm kinda convinced that her friend actually likes HER. The girl wanted to see me (otherwise she wouldn't have written me like that) but the situation was messy.

Well, let's see if something happens today - I'm not very inclined to write her


Dating thread on TL LUL
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
June 22 2018 17:50 GMT
#19550
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8267 Posts
June 22 2018 17:52 GMT
#19551
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


fwb isn't about working, it's about keeping your sex life up while you wait for something that will.
SoSexy
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Italy3725 Posts
June 22 2018 18:09 GMT
#19552
Exactly. We are in the 25-30 demographic.
Dating thread on TL LUL
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
June 22 2018 18:12 GMT
#19553
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


It "works" for many.

And somehow I question your expertise on this field, given what you have posted here before.
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-22 18:23:24
June 22 2018 18:21 GMT
#19554
You can question what you want. I don't care about your opinion. I just don't see this option working, but if "while you wait for something that will" will help, then fine.

Summary: mahrgell is a salty guy from the EU politics thread.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
June 22 2018 18:24 GMT
#19555
On June 23 2018 03:12 mahrgell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


It "works" for many.

And somehow I question your expertise on this field, given what you have posted here before.


That's a pretty fair point tbh. I don't get the impression you have a huge wealth of dating experience to draw on about FWB working or not working sc-darkness. If I'm wrong, I apologize.


On June 23 2018 02:52 Excludos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


fwb isn't about working, it's about keeping your sex life up while you wait for something that will.


Tbh, that's probably the situation I'd like to be in right now until I find someone that strikes me as "I want a relationship with this girl". It seems like a better, and arguable safer, version than just having some ONS from going out or off Tinder.

The other thing I could benefit from a decent bit I suspect is getting a slightly more robust social circle to have the opportunity to meet more people that share similar interests. I have a few close friends I hang out with often, and then a decent number of guys I ride bikes with, but that tends to be a pretty male dominated sphere. It's easy to go out and find someone for the night, or get some action of tinder; but knowing how to look for a decent girl with similar interests and a personality mesh for something long term is an area I'm lacking in.

As someone who hasn't really had a serious relationship yet at 28 (too shy in HS, early college, then spent three years pretty isolated in a smaller area not meeting many people) I would like to experience a deeper relationship like that...but it's not something I just want to jump into. I want to meet someone that makes me think "yea there is something here. I really like this girl on more than a physical level".
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
June 22 2018 18:27 GMT
#19556
On June 23 2018 03:21 sc-darkness wrote:
You can question what you want. I don't care about your opinion. I just don't see this option working, but if "while you wait for something that will" will help, then fine.

Summary: mahrgell is a salty guy from the EU politics thread.


I think it would help to define what you mean by "working". It's not clear to me what your expected outcome is for it be successful or unsuccessful.

Then explain why you can't see it working. So far, you've just said I can't see it working which is more or a less an appeal to authority given the lack of reasoning behind it. It's a bit like saying "I just don't see a diet of hard intervals working to make you an amazing runner". Okay. I'm listening. But why?
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-22 18:47:12
June 22 2018 18:44 GMT
#19557
On June 23 2018 03:27 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2018 03:21 sc-darkness wrote:
You can question what you want. I don't care about your opinion. I just don't see this option working, but if "while you wait for something that will" will help, then fine.

Summary: mahrgell is a salty guy from the EU politics thread.


I think it would help to define what you mean by "working". It's not clear to me what your expected outcome is for it be successful or unsuccessful.

Then explain why you can't see it working. So far, you've just said I can't see it working which is more or a less an appeal to authority given the lack of reasoning behind it. It's a bit like saying "I just don't see a diet of hard intervals working to make you an amazing runner". Okay. I'm listening. But why?


On June 23 2018 03:24 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2018 03:12 mahrgell wrote:
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


It "works" for many.

And somehow I question your expertise on this field, given what you have posted here before.


That's a pretty fair point tbh. I don't get the impression you have a huge wealth of dating experience to draw on about FWB working or not working sc-darkness. If I'm wrong, I apologize.


Show nested quote +
On June 23 2018 02:52 Excludos wrote:
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


fwb isn't about working, it's about keeping your sex life up while you wait for something that will.

I would like to experience a deeper relationship like that...[...] I want to meet someone that makes me think "yea there is something here. I really like this girl on more than a physical level".


I don't see it working for exactly this reason. Also, all the stories about developing feelings while being "friends with benefits". It's a huge waste of time in my opinion and you're not addressing the root cause, which is your or her inability to have a healthy relationship. I don't need to be the next relationship god to tell you that.

Some people are fine with wasting time though. I like to be efficient, so to each their own. I'm not trying to attack you L_Master, I'm just responding to your question honestly. On the other hand, I can't say I have respect for mahrgell.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
June 22 2018 18:56 GMT
#19558
On June 23 2018 03:44 sc-darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2018 03:27 L_Master wrote:
On June 23 2018 03:21 sc-darkness wrote:
You can question what you want. I don't care about your opinion. I just don't see this option working, but if "while you wait for something that will" will help, then fine.

Summary: mahrgell is a salty guy from the EU politics thread.


I think it would help to define what you mean by "working". It's not clear to me what your expected outcome is for it be successful or unsuccessful.

Then explain why you can't see it working. So far, you've just said I can't see it working which is more or a less an appeal to authority given the lack of reasoning behind it. It's a bit like saying "I just don't see a diet of hard intervals working to make you an amazing runner". Okay. I'm listening. But why?


Show nested quote +
On June 23 2018 03:24 L_Master wrote:
On June 23 2018 03:12 mahrgell wrote:
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


It "works" for many.

And somehow I question your expertise on this field, given what you have posted here before.


That's a pretty fair point tbh. I don't get the impression you have a huge wealth of dating experience to draw on about FWB working or not working sc-darkness. If I'm wrong, I apologize.


On June 23 2018 02:52 Excludos wrote:
On June 23 2018 02:50 sc-darkness wrote:
How old are you? Are people really so blind to think friends with benefits can ever work?


fwb isn't about working, it's about keeping your sex life up while you wait for something that will.

I would like to experience a deeper relationship like that...[...] I want to meet someone that makes me think "yea there is something here. I really like this girl on more than a physical level".


I don't see it working for exactly this reason. Also, all the stories about developing feelings while being "friends with benefits". It's a huge waste of time in my opinion and you're not addressing the root cause, which is your or her inability to have a healthy relationship. I don't need to be the next relationship god to tell you that.

Some people are fine with wasting time though. I like to be efficient, so to each their own. I'm not trying to attack you L_Master, I'm just responding to your question honestly. On the other hand, I can't say I have respect for mahrgell.


Oh don't worry, I don't think you're attacking me whatsoever. I just wanted to get a sense of where your thoughts were coming from, and what specifically you meant as it wasn't 100% clear to me.

This is primarily a difference in value judgement then.

Bolded statement one, is definitely an opinion. I don't think having someone you can hang out with, maybe have some fun dates with, and have great sex with a waste of time. It's no more or less a waste of time than playing video games, going for a run, skydiving, or any other activity. I'm not sure you're wasting time either in the sense of finding a relationship, because you can still be looking for one while you have a FWB situation.

The second bolded statement is heavy value judgement. our comment to me seems to suggest that anything other than a stable LTR is unhealthy. On what basis do you say a friends with benefits relationship isn't "healthy"? It might be that neither of you have the time or energy to commit to something serious; acknowledging that but still enjoying each other's company is not unhealthy in my opinion. Nor would it be if you two have personalities that make you enjoy each other's company tremendously for short periods of time, but know that with too much time together things wouldn't mesh as well. I have several good male friends this way, for a night out they are really fun to go hang out with; but it's not a lifestyle I could be involved in 24/7. In my opinion, these relationships are perfectly healthy.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-06-22 19:09:49
June 22 2018 19:06 GMT
#19559
Ok, I'll just comment on the points I disagree with.

On June 23 2018 03:56 L_Master wrote:
Bolded statement one, is definitely an opinion. I don't think having someone you can hang out with, maybe have some fun dates with, and have great sex with a waste of time.


Except this person could go fuck anyone they want before they tell you bye. How is this a good thing? I get it that it's "friends with benefits", but it's not something I'd want in this case. Maybe short-term dating is a better thing.

On June 23 2018 03:56 L_Master wrote:
Nor would it be if you two have personalities that make you enjoy each other's company tremendously for short periods of time, but know that with too much time together things wouldn't mesh as well.


Exactly, if you think you're not for each other, then why waste time and not find someone who is good enough? I think the only 2 arguments I find persuasive so far are:
a) not enough personal time
b) you want sex so much, but you're still looking for the one (provided you're not emotionally vulnerable to your friend with benefits)

Anything else is a no in my opinion.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
June 22 2018 20:50 GMT
#19560
fwb and exclusivity aren't the best bedfellows
passive quaranstream fan
Prev 1 976 977 978 979 980 1067 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
16:00
5400 MMR Capped Patch Clash
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Clem_sc2 716
elazer 258
BRAT_OK 57
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 19062
Calm 3042
Mini 469
Dewaltoss 128
Soulkey 91
ggaemo 91
Dota 2
420jenkins441
Counter-Strike
minikerr12
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby2611
Liquid`Hasu339
Other Games
tarik_tv3504
singsing2383
B2W.Neo1122
Beastyqt599
UpATreeSC57
Chillindude17
MindelVK3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick38673
BasetradeTV236
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 62
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix10
• Michael_bg 8
• Pr0nogo 4
• blackmanpl 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1249
• Shiphtur253
• tFFMrPink 13
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
13h 21m
Solar vs Rogue
Maru vs NightMare
Sparkling Tuna Cup
14h 21m
IPSL
20h 21m
Bonyth vs Hawk
GSL
1d 15h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
[ Show More ]
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Clem vs Lambo
Scarlett vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W2
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
YSL S3
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026

Upcoming

CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E3
Eternal Conflict S2 E2
Logitech G Connect 2026
StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.