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On September 30 2019 23:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Try slowly and gently holding her hand and see how she reacts. One of my stupid comedy moves at fun loud parties is to take a woman's hand and pull her hand up to my face as though I'm going to kiss her hand and then I kiss my own hand instead. I then react to her reaction. Silly. Stupid. Fun.
Keep things light and relaxed and just see how things go. Watch how she reacts and continue accordingly. If she is not into it don't force it.
I'm guessing you probably have a full time job. Don't turn chasing girls into a 2nd job. Keep girl chasing a silly, stupid fun spare time killer.
men and women will never understand each other any way...
100% this. It is not bad to have some "go to" routines. As long as they are not super generic. E.g I have very small hands for a guy, so I can ask something like "what is the most male part about you?", and if I present my "female part", I just present my hands and do the hand measuring thing (where you put one hand of each against each other to see finger length).
Other thing I remember are reading handlines. You can than just come up with stupid stuff that you make up.
On September 30 2019 23:35 Volband wrote: How do you make a move onto someone who seems quite reserved? Matched with this girl the other day, asked her if she wants to meet, she agreed, we grabbed a coffee next day, talked and walked for a few hours, left, asked her later if she wants to meet again and she said yes.
Great, but I don't know how to turn this up a notch if we can't get to have a date where I feel like I can take a move. Whether it's something less subtle, like meeting at my place, or more ordinary, like having a few wines somewhere. Haven't proposed anything to her, so maybe she'd be into going to something like a bar, but unless it's friday or sunday, even that is scary a bit, because this town is a ghost town from monday through thursday, and once again, she is quite reserved.
As for how the dating process went, I would say probably shit, as she did not even ask a single question about me, but that may have been due to me jumping from one topic to another in fear of losing the spark. We barely even communicate on messenger, so honestly, I have absolutely no idea why she even agreed to meet again, but that is not for me think about,
Honestly though, have you asked anything about her? have you gotten to know her, what she likes, what she wants? chances are she is not asking you these questions because you haven' t asked her, so she probably does not want to bother you or say something you would retain stupid; seems like there is some ice breaking to do there... if she has agreed and will show up to the second appointment, she definitely likes you or at least finds you interesting.
Also, just because women are very good listeners, doesn' t mean though that that is what she wants to be doing that all day, especially if you are going on randomly about topics in which you are not personally invested in. I would say relax a little and take a step back;
the best moment to make a move, is when the situation spontaneously comes up for it. Its a mindset, its not a moment that you should ideally pre-fabricate in your own mind. If she is having a good time, and you are having a good time too, that moment will naturally pop up and then you can take advantage of the situation. Too many men often are prefixated on this idea, they want it to go like this, that, and that. When big corporations make multi million dollar deals, it never works like that, most often informal scenarios are set up, and the moment the deal happens is when everything is flowing beetwen the two parties involved, and everyone is having a smooth time.
Also, have you considered giving her flowers? or some other act that signifies you are into her? does she even know you feel attracted to her? a lot of women are very insecure about how they look, and about the fact if their dates find them attractive and physically likeable. So yeah take a step back, relax, and think of somewhere fun or interesting that you would like to spend time, or some kind of activity that you believe she might enjoy; a bar can work, but you should never assume that is the go to place. Its very situational these things; hope this can inspire you
On September 30 2019 23:35 Volband wrote: How do you make a move onto someone who seems quite reserved? Matched with this girl the other day, asked her if she wants to meet, she agreed, we grabbed a coffee next day, talked and walked for a few hours, left, asked her later if she wants to meet again and she said yes.
Great, but I don't know how to turn this up a notch if we can't get to have a date where I feel like I can take a move. Whether it's something less subtle, like meeting at my place, or more ordinary, like having a few wines somewhere. Haven't proposed anything to her, so maybe she'd be into going to something like a bar, but unless it's friday or sunday, even that is scary a bit, because this town is a ghost town from monday through thursday, and once again, she is quite reserved.
As for how the dating process went, I would say probably shit, as she did not even ask a single question about me, but that may have been due to me jumping from one topic to another in fear of losing the spark. We barely even communicate on messenger, so honestly, I have absolutely no idea why she even agreed to meet again, but that is not for me think about,
What Raynor said is pretty good. In general though, you want to do the opposite, you described doing most of the talking. I usually want the women to do 80-90% of the talking. You usually have to lead the conversation still, but make the date about getting to know her. People feel good when they talk about themselves, AND you usually want to learn about her anyway so it serves both purposes.
Don't interview her, make it a fun conversation, but if you find yourself talking about you or things you like or do more than 50% and really more than 35% of the time...that's not what you want. She will usually come away with the impression "all he did was talk about himself".
How to make a move? Start by increasing your level of touch, put your hand on her hand or arm briefly, or lightly touch her shoulder. From there you might move to putting an arm around her or something similar, eventually working to where you are holding hands or playing with her hair or whatever. The bottom line is if you don't have that increase in touch it just feels like a fun, non sexual conversation. It doesn't have spark. Obviously, don't be creepy about this. You work up, and if at any point she is uncomfortable you pull the fuck back. I usually parallel this by gradually moving the conversation towards dating/relationship talk and then eventually to talk about sex (not you two having sex, just about sexual stuff in general).
If all that went well, just pitch a date at your house. Wine and a movie, enjoy that a bit and then move towards something sexual mid movie.
A million ways you can do it, but I think the main keys are to escalate the physical side of the interaction, move towards more romantic/sexual topics, and then on second or third date you have her come to your place.
On October 01 2019 06:53 L_Master wrote: What Raynor said is pretty good. In general though, you want to do the opposite, you described doing most of the talking. I usually want the women to do 80-90% of the talking. You usually have to lead the conversation still, but make the date about getting to know her. People feel good when they talk about themselves, AND you usually want to learn about her anyway so it serves both purposes.
Sometimes, at a party or social event where i've grown bored... for shits and giggles ... i will challenge myself to see how long i can get a person, male or female, to talk about themselves without ever asking a question towards me or about me.
You can get a good idea of how self absorbed someone is by doing this.
Delicate balance between being a creep and a nice date that got a bit more physical. Try really hard to read the signals.
Some personal experience with fucking that part up: + Show Spoiler +
I did not do that properly one time and it still haunts me how uncomfortable it must've made my date (just holding hands though not consensual). Man that sucked, what an idiot I was.
Even though you guys met on tinder, this shan't be taken as a preemptive consent to touching. Not implying that's what you thought, just sharing a bad experience I caused.
On October 01 2019 07:02 Artisreal wrote: Delicate balance between being a creep and a nice date that got a bit more physical. Try really hard to read the signals.
Some personal experience with fucking that part up: + Show Spoiler +
I did not do that properly one time and it still haunts me how uncomfortable it must've made my date (just holding hands though not consensual). Man that sucked, what an idiot I was.
Even though you guys met on tinder, this shan't be taken as a preemptive consent to touching. Not implying that's what you thought, just sharing a bad experience I caused.
This is very true. When you get used to it, you'll usually start to realize when you're being creepy, but I suspect we've all had a few dates where we left and realized we probably came across as really creepy.
I'm not sure there is a way around it, unless you just play ridiculously safe with zero contact..but then you'll miss like 4 or 5 shots for every one that does work.
Best I can say is true to learn how to be very perceptive of body language, if she gives any subtle body language cue she doesn't look the touch you just made....back it off. Go a few steps back and try again later.
On October 01 2019 06:53 L_Master wrote: What Raynor said is pretty good. In general though, you want to do the opposite, you described doing most of the talking. I usually want the women to do 80-90% of the talking. You usually have to lead the conversation still, but make the date about getting to know her. People feel good when they talk about themselves, AND you usually want to learn about her anyway so it serves both purposes.
Sometimes, at a party or social event where i've grown bored... for shits and giggles ... i will challenge myself to see how long i can get a person, male or female, to talk about themselves without ever asking a question towards me or about me.
You can get a good idea of how self absorbed someone is by doing this.
I haven't ever played that game, but I can imagine that would be pretty hilarious...and likely true :D
Historically I did OK in old fashioned face-to-face conversation and organically meeting people and progressing from there, of late I just don’t meet anyone to even succeed/fail with and it’s been that way for a while. I’m decent company and pretty amusing so I can do alright for myself if I’m around a woman for a period of time.
In my youth I just met friends of friends on big group nights out, as we’re getting older my friends are settling down etc and we don’t have those kind of big nights out.
Tried dating apps, not gone especially well. I have made a good friend but that’s about it, I don’t think my sense of humour translates at all if it’s not a face to face kind of deal, but I can’t even get to that stage because I’m not particularly engaging (at least to the types I would find compatible) without any of that context.
Bit frustrated but not bitter about being single for 4 years now, just trying to figure out some kind of solution that isn’t just sitting around and hoping for some lucky chance meeting.
I was thinking of doing some kind of activity to just meet people anyway, a lot of my friends have moved away and I’ve never replaced them.
Have any fellow TLers had particular things they’d recommend in this domain or what?
On October 01 2019 01:09 pebble444 wrote: Also, have you considered giving her flowers? or some other act that signifies you are into her?
This is a great idea. However, at the stage things are with the guy asking the question i think 5+ flowers is probably overdoing it. At this stage I recommend a single "Hershey's Kiss". For the record the chocolate is 22 calories. Doing this move gives me a wide range of outcomes. I've had women ask me to feed it to them... I've had women snarl at me "are you trying to get me fat". This is when I reply it is 22 calories and having used the Hershey's Kiss as an ice breaker for 10+ years I'm able to quickly break it in half while keeping the foil wrapped on it making it 11 calories. Then I say "now its only 11 calories".
I usually have a pretty good idea after 20 seconds with the "Hershey's Kiss" interaction if a woman is enjoying interacting with me. If she is not enjoying herself I politely exit... sometimes with a handshake. I'm always cheerful upon my exit.
The snarling "are you trying to get me fat" is sometimes a "congruence test" and other times it is a genuine sign of a lack of interest. Cracking it in half and saying "now its 11 calories" gets me over the "congruence test" almost every time.
On October 01 2019 15:07 Wombat_NI wrote: Have any fellow TLers had particular things they’d recommend in this domain or what?
A lot of the methods I employ to "break the ice" with women I also use when I'm "breaking the ice" and building my business network at in-person events.
Its a good idea to get better at in-person networking in general. Its good for whatever business you run or job you have. Meeting a woman for the potential of a romantic interlude is a special case of "in-person networking".
Currently, if one is lousy at in-person networking this is no reason for shame. Slowly build your in-person networking skills one step at a time by experimenting with various informal social techniques. I continue to improve in this area because I "work" at it a little bit every couple of months. And "work" isn't quite the right word actually.. I'd say I "riff" on it. This ain't hard labour.
Often at these giant live events and conferences there are long lineups for badges or some other such administrative task. If everyone in line is looking testy and impatient about waiting in the line up I'll often speak up and say ... " hey ... IS EVERYONE HAVING A GOOD TIME? " with a sarcastic tone in my voice. This often leads to an open discussion about how well the event is organized with people close to me in line.
I stumbled upon the above 1-liner when a friend of mine just said it totally spontaneously while we were in line and he was being his usual stand up comic self.
Most of my techniques are variations on stuff other people have done. Very few things are 100% invented by me.
Thanks for the reply Jimmy, although not really what I was talking about.
I did fine previously when I just met women in my day-to-day life, circumstances currently are that I don’t meet anyone to network with, not that I’m necessarily bad at it.
I know how to take a drink of water, I’m just currently in a desert.
Have any of you had experiences with broadening your horizons, taking a class or whatever and meeting interesting people in that manner or anything like that?
On October 02 2019 09:01 Wombat_NI wrote: Thanks for the reply Jimmy, although not really what I was talking about.
I did fine previously when I just met women in my day-to-day life, circumstances currently are that I don’t meet anyone to network with, not that I’m necessarily bad at it.
I know how to take a drink of water, I’m just currently in a desert.
Have any of you had experiences with broadening your horizons, taking a class or whatever and meeting interesting people in that manner or anything like that?
I live in a big city (nyc) and there are these sports groups that get together - not hardcore, very casual stuff like dodgeball or volleyball. "Zogsports" or "nycsocial" for example. I got a gift card for christmas so reluctantly signed up as a single person and got stuck with a random team. I actually made a few friends from that, and there are a LOT of single young women mostly there to meet people. Just be friendly and get invited to the drinks afterwards, or try to get a group to go out after.
I agree. Your best shot at meeting people at a gym or something sport related.
You also mentioned your "old" friends are living somewhere else. There is the option of them having new circles of friends and you could visit your friends, meet their new friends and so on.
Third option would be dating apps I guess, but it's not for everyone
On October 02 2019 09:01 Wombat_NI wrote: Thanks for the reply Jimmy, although not really what I was talking about.
I did fine previously when I just met women in my day-to-day life, circumstances currently are that I don’t meet anyone to network with, not that I’m necessarily bad at it.
I know how to take a drink of water, I’m just currently in a desert.
Have any of you had experiences with broadening your horizons, taking a class or whatever and meeting interesting people in that manner or anything like that?
Find a hobby where you meet woman regularly.
I will go out of my way, again, to recommend crossfit gyms as the best place to meet young woman lol.
As for go to routines, I am usually just headbutting things, and they either work or not. If we had anight out, a couple of drinks and I feel that we had some chemistry or tension, I usually go for a kiss somewhere. I'm at a point where doing that is less scary, than initiating physical contact, as I've never really done the latter before. Stories like Artisreal said are what living in my head all the time.
This is why I would like to try to circumvent this issue whenever I am dating. Once again, if you are having a few drinks, some laughs, then even without physical stuff you can judge your position with your date.
I honestly given up on her, as I had to initiate every conversation even post-date, so when she said today may be fine for a second meet on Tuesday, then haven't written since, I was like okay, I won't write again. Then just now she messaged me about today. Fuck! I have no idea where to bring her, when we meet 4 PM, or how to plan this out. Now, you would say "don't plan anything", but if we have another casual date, then she may think I am not making a move, and considers us just being friendly.
And once again, she seems like the most reserved person I have ever met. I can barely hear her, because she speaks so quietly and slowly, she has a job, which she likes, but can be improved upon, she likes her older brother and he introduced her to many "boy stuff", and overall, she barely complained about anything or anyone. Everything she said was just... reasonable.
As for questions, I did ask a lot about her, and I let her speak.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. To be fair, this time, it wasn't me who fucked up, a'ight? I'm the first to self-deprecate, you know that.
Currently waiting for her answer if she wants to meet again or not. She's typing for 1 min now. Damn. I'm not even sure if I'm gonna send this post if she ends this. Ok, not over, I think, but my golden opportunity is still fucked. Fuuuuuuuuuuck.
Okay, so we meet, and I asked her beforehand if she likes marzipan. She said yes, and I happened to have a marzipan flavored Mercy, which I have bought for myself. Don't judge me, at least let me love myself! So, anyway, It originally has like 4 or 5 bars, and I had one left. I was about to take that one bar and bring it to her, but thought it would be funny if I gave her the whole package, even though it's like mostly empty and basically a junk. That's what I did, and immideately after I gave it to her, I explained the joke to her, as to avoid her thinking I'm a jackass, and told her to just give the empty package to me, I'll throw it out, and she can just take the bar. But she insisted on taking it all home!! I took it that she liked it as a memento maybe, because she seemed a bit disappointed when I told her again that there's a trashcan ahead and I'll just throw it out for her.
So, we grabbed a coffee again, at a different place. I told her that I order according to what she orders, as I wouldn't want to chunk down a beer whilst she's drinking some coffee. She ordered coffee eventually, and so did I.
Eventually I tried to change the topic to meeting new people and going out with them in general, tinder experiences, what have you. It worked well, I also got to learn how she thinks about dating in general, and when she said that she gives the opportunity for everyone, and she'll see whether it will work out, and if it does, whether as friends or something more. So, basically our situation. I haven't touched on anything sexual, I just didn't get that vibe from her. I had like one good opportunity, when she said she ended the dating process with someone who wanted an open relationship, so I could have asked her if he told her after of before they had done the deed, but it felt a bit shaky to me.
She also talked about some of her girlfriends and how they sometimes are too afraid to tell the guy that they just don't feel that way, etc., and how she's always tel lthe truth in these situation because it's just overall better. That's a relief. At this point, I knew I had to do something, but it's 16:30 in the afternoon in a coffee shop, so my options are fairly limited. Sure, it would be nice to end the date with a walk in the park, but it's hard to do, when her train leaves at 17:30. She apologized beforehand for thinking that there'd be a train a bit later, so all cool, but mistakes were made on her part.
Anyway, I decided in favor of my headbutt approach, just a bit more thoughtful version of it. Going for a full-on make-out as a goodbye would have been a bit much, so I thought since we greet and say goodbye by two kisses on the cheeks, I'd just softly grab her shoulders and give a kiss to her lips, nothing more intrusive.
The time was clicking, and not for me, but for her, as it was already past 17:00, but I didn't want to tell her, because it would've sounded weird if I am reminding her that she has to leave; it's not like I wanted her to. A bit later she realized we should probably be going, and she insisted on paying me back for her coffee on our first date. Nice!
She seemed happy on the way back, playing around with her handbag, talking about dog stuff, which I really did not even care about, I've always been a cat person, and I was just glad she seemed to enjoy herself, and I was already preparing myself for the moment(tm). But time was really running out. I even told her that I can walk faster, and we probably should.
She said it wouldn't be the end of the world if she missed it, but from her tone it was obvious she would rather catch it. Sure, it would have been quite cozy to invite her to my house which is 2 minutes from the train station if she missed it, but I didn't want her to be there just because she had to be there, I think you understand. So I upped the tempo, because I'm a great guy. Not really though, but if you need to hurry up, I'm your guy. Even when I'm going on my mundane business, I walk fast, like my life depended on it. I cut through the lines of people like a lion, probably even saved an orphan in the process, so I'm sure she liked it.
Sadly, I only had time to open the already closed train doors for her, then she jumped up, and we said goodbye. What an absolute travesty. I felt it man. I had first kisses where I was really on the edge if it's a good idea, because I just wasn't quite sure based on the feedbacks on the date, but I was so sure now.
When I started typing this post, I asked her if she'd like to meet again, she said "Of course. As I said, I give the opportunity [to others], though as for now, it's not clear [in me], if this could go somewhere for me. I mean... so, you're likeable and I can talk with you, but that's it so far." LOL, and as we are currently talking, she said she wasn't sure if she would've been happy if I kissed her. That is some grade A yikes, right? I mean... wow. I won't delete this now, as some may like or enjoy this story but... what the fuck can I even do?
Like, okay, cool, she's willing to meet yet again, but how am I to reach to the level where she isn't afraid of me kissing her? What is she looking for, which she hopes to find on a 3rd date? Do I flirt harder? Do I ask some hard-hitting, person-defining questions? Do I show her my ability to blurp on command?
edit: ah, we talked a little more, she said she'll think about it. I unintentionally put together the saddest story of the week. Well, a bit overdramatized, as the tl;dr is that she just probably didn't feel that strongly, but the way it played out sucked. Also, I'm not even any smarter if she says yeah, she surely wants to meet again. I still don't know what am I even supposed to do at this point. At least if she had gotten that kiss, she would know for sure how she felt about it. Now, even if we were to meet again (which I highly doubt at this point), it would be hella weird.
To me, even if this acquaintance situation fails to evolve into a bf/gf relationship you've undergone some good personal growth. Keep it up. Good work. Happiness for a child is a gift granted to them by their parents. Happiness for adults is only earned by the brave.
Anyhow, Do you have your own place? if so, invite her to your place for dinner.
On October 04 2019 01:26 Volband wrote: She also talked about some of her girlfriends and how they sometimes are too afraid to tell the guy that they just don't feel that way, etc., and how she's always tel lthe truth in these situation because it's just overall better.
Part of this is the fault of the guy for not defining the relationship and closing. Men who are very skilled at securing new social arrangements are happier and more successful in both their business lives and personal lives. Learn how to "close". It is not easy.. but its a great life skill to have. I "close deals" every week. I get refused and face rejection every week as well. Meh, Welcome to the real world.
When I was single I had a very nice sex life//love life. However, I encountered plenty of personal rejection along the way. Meh, it happens. The reason I faced rejection is that I did not allow a vague relationship status to last for very long. I went in for the close. I made sure this was a man/woman relationship and my only continued investment in the relationship was under those conditions.
Salesmen make the same mistake most guys make when dealing with women. They do not close. If you go in for the close and demand a clear definition of the relationship and she rejects you then there are two good results. #1 You are not wasting her time. #2 you are not wasting your own time.
Here is a humorous look at "closing". To me, this is one of the best speeches in the history of the movie industry. Alec Baldwin is brilliant.
Heavily embroidered in work. Out of the game for MONTHS (since football season started I think?)
There’s a bartender that tended to my football league a while back and I’ve turned into a “regular” at that bar since it’s right by my work. Anyways, I think she’s interested as she’s clumsy with my drinks and always makes it a point to say hi when I show up.
I’m so fucking rusty that I don’t even know how to initiate flirting with a bartender (as that’s supposed to be the easiest thing).
On October 04 2019 08:07 Emnjay808 wrote: Heavily embroidered in work. Out of the game for MONTHS (since football season started I think?)
There’s a bartender that tended to my football league a while back and I’ve turned into a “regular” at that bar since it’s right by my work. Anyways, I think she’s interested as she’s clumsy with my drinks and always makes it a point to say hi when I show up.
I’m so fucking rusty that I don’t even know how to initiate flirting with a bartender (as that’s supposed to be the easiest thing).
I wouldn't read too much into a bartender showing interest in you. It's her job. The girls at the coffee place I go also recognize me and say hi. That isn't flirting, it's greeting repeat clientele.
That said, she may like you. Just ask her straight up what time she gets off / when her day off is and if she wants to meet up. There isn't much in the way of flirting that works well while she's serving you drinks. So you just gotta ask.
EPT
