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On September 24 2011 05:49 Mallard86 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 04:56 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:
the university system in the US is completely separate from the primary school system in the US.
Also, the US had a pretty good headstart, after WW2 when we took all the best scientists from Europe. While the rest of the world was in shambles, we discovered a ton of shit and invented a ton of shit. With that lead, we started recruiting the smartest people from other countries to our universities as well to continue our lead.
Also, the culture in the US is very much favoring innovation. You are only partially correct. Ill address several misconceptions in your post. First, America took the lead in Nobel laureates over Germany before WWII. This lead in top scientists grew as fascist and despotic governments began to show themselves and scientists in those countries began to flee to a safer haven, the US. Einstein is the most well known but there were others like Fermi and Bohr. At the end of WWII, the US, Russia and Britain all made attempts to round up and import all the top scientists of the defeated countries. Von Braun is the most well known example. The real reason that the US took the lead is because the US had money, much more freedom of movement and sharing of information compared to Russia and was not devastated like much of Europe and Asia. Today the US is tops among universities because we import a lot of foreign students and professors. The lead that the US gained at the end of the war has been perpetuated by the general practice of many other countries to send their best and brightest students to the US to study where many of them end up staying to teach and research.
I agree here; in a shameless self-plug however, I also sincerely believe there is something unique in American society that really incubates and encourages that sort of academic performance at the highest levels. Some combination of individualism, a perception of being able to truly work your way up, and a spirit of innovation.
These traits aren't necessarily that helpful at the high school level (where the general idea seems to be to get kids disciplined and accepting of basic societal expectations while picking up basic knowledge) ~ however at the college level, the idea of talking back to your professors and openly discussing wildly radical but well-formulated ideas are inherent to the American university experience. I've never seen that at any foreign university I've visited (Philippines, Korea, HK, Japan).
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Because idiots want to teach creationism in school. that is why.
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First off, public schools are open to everybody which means they will automatically be lower than universities which have the option to deny people entrance. Also, when Bush created the "No Child Left Behind" program he essentially made a "No Teacher Left Standing" policy because let's face it, some people are just stupid and have no will to learn. This then makes the teacher look bad for being unable to teach a child who has no interest in being taught. I live in America and I have to say, there are a lot of stupid people here. Our universities are so great though because they do not allow the stupid people to attend their university, they only let the most qualified attend, which then makes our universities exceedingly successful
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On September 24 2011 05:09 fdsdfg wrote:
American public school system really isn't as bad as all the political cartoons and hype would have you believe.
I know a few teachers, and we really do teach a lot of stuff. I'm not saying it's the best in the world, but it's not accurate to say our public school system is this useless heap. We just aren't allowed to stop pandering to kids who don't want to learn, which means the bottom half of our public schools is remedial crap that is just short of dropping out. Advanced public school classes really do teach a lot, I learned a ton.
Though, I am from Massachusetts, and we were ranked #1 public schools in the country recently, so I am certainly not seeing the whole picture.
Maybe not in some parts of the country, but in Chicago, they are SHIT.
They literally tried to bribe kids to attend the first day for public schools since few kids show up.
And if I remember correctly, they're in school for 5 1/2 hours a day. I went to a private high school, and 1-8 periods was 8:10-2:45. I had early dismissal twice, so I actually got out at 2 for two years, but still.
When speaking of universities, they aren't officially private, but they are given the perk of accepting anyone they want and rejecting anyone they want. 3.6 GPA and 28 ACT? Nope, not good enough for *insert school here*.
Lower levels of public education don't get that benefit. Private schools however, do.
So I can say that private schools = public universities in that regard.
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A big reason for the difference in quality is the goal of the schools. For almost all public high schools the aim is to get people to graduate, not for the students to actually learn anything but just to get them to graduate. This causes high school teachers to have to structure their teaching around trying to get the people that don't care about school to learn just enough to pass standardized testing so they can graduate. For most high schools that is their only goal.
To contrast that the best universities could care less if you fail out. They want only the best and the brightest to represent their school so it is only those people that graduate. Also if you get into one of these schools it is because you want to be their, so naturally you will do better than high schools students who are forced to go to school.
In my opinion the creation of standardized testing was one of the worst things that could have happened to the public school system because it changes the goal of teaching from learning to passing tests, which wont help at all later in life.
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On September 24 2011 05:58 Yuka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:49 Mallard86 wrote:On September 24 2011 04:56 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:
the university system in the US is completely separate from the primary school system in the US.
Also, the US had a pretty good headstart, after WW2 when we took all the best scientists from Europe. While the rest of the world was in shambles, we discovered a ton of shit and invented a ton of shit. With that lead, we started recruiting the smartest people from other countries to our universities as well to continue our lead.
Also, the culture in the US is very much favoring innovation. You are only partially correct. Ill address several misconceptions in your post. First, America took the lead in Nobel laureates over Germany before WWII. This lead in top scientists grew as fascist and despotic governments began to show themselves and scientists in those countries began to flee to a safer haven, the US. Einstein is the most well known but there were others like Fermi and Bohr. At the end of WWII, the US, Russia and Britain all made attempts to round up and import all the top scientists of the defeated countries. Von Braun is the most well known example. The real reason that the US took the lead is because the US had money, much more freedom of movement and sharing of information compared to Russia and was not devastated like much of Europe and Asia. Today the US is tops among universities because we import a lot of foreign students and professors. The lead that the US gained at the end of the war has been perpetuated by the general practice of many other countries to send their best and brightest students to the US to study where many of them end up staying to teach and research. I agree here; in a shameless self-plug however, I also sincerely believe there is something unique in American society that really incubates and encourages that sort of academic performance at the highest levels. Some combination of individualism, a perception of being able to truly work your way up, and a spirit of innovation. These traits aren't necessarily that helpful at the high school level (where the general idea seems to be to get kids disciplined and accepting of basic societal expectations while picking up basic knowledge) ~ however at the college level, the idea of talking back to your professors and openly discussing wildly radical but well-formulated ideas are inherent to the American university experience. I've never seen that at any foreign university I've visited (Philippines, Korea, HK, Japan).
Actually I think you touch on an excellent social point. In many Asian countries, there seems to be culture of respect and hierarchy. There may also be a tendency to rely on brute force and blind studying rather than a more creative method which involves some of that questioning of established ideas.
In the US, the sometimes arrogant notion that I know something my superior doesnt can really lead to new ways of looking at problems in science and coming up with new solutions.
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There is a big line between a university and a public education system. Going to a university alone assumes that you have enough money invested and meet some requirements of attending said university, that alone factors out a huge block of people. Next you should consider exactly how much money some of these universities make off a single student (mine makes around 13 grand a year off of me alone) then you multiply that by the amount of students that attend and you have an enormous sum of money (not to mention money some of them get from the state). With proper financial support they can afford to hire the good professors (though they often don't -.-), generate a lot of research opportunities, and literally create their own micro economy. In other words American universities are what would happen if a big business took over a school.
American public schools on the other hand are far from efficient, well-funded machines that only selectively choose who can come in. The atrocious American political system leaves many schools under-funded and over-supplied, which stifles any attempt towards improvement. A good chunk of kids going to American schools have no desire to learn or even give a rats ass about anything. Without money and motivation, just about anything suffers.
Also the Americans that do manage to make it into good universities and do well, are generally highly motivated and bright people. Its not like everybody coming from the American public education system is emerging from primordial ooze.
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On September 24 2011 05:31 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2011 05:29 Surrealz wrote:On September 24 2011 01:48 giuocob wrote:
Universities are private. America has been the site of many, many scientific and academic discoveries in its history, far more than any other country. These people drive universities and make them exceptional.
Most high schools and below are public. It is well known that most anything the American government touches turns to shit, and public schooling is no exception. this comment was both concise and true. I also consider the tests at which we are gauging our academic knowledge are increasingly subjective and outdated, and really don't do the average American student justice. Don't private universities still receive the majority of their funding from the government though?
The two posters above you are just about as incorrect as you can get.
Any American University/College that starts with University of "State name" - "City name" is a public school which gets state tax money as a major part of its funding. Residents of that state pay much lower tuition (I was paying about 1/5 of what the out of state students paid).
That includes some of the top universities here: Berkeley (University of California - Berkeley), University of Virginia (ok no city name in this one), Michigan (University of Michigan - Ann Arbor), ect.
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Most students at my school who are taking real majors (science) are foreigners or American students who have been in private schools their entire academic life prior to their admission. The overwhelming majority of American students however take bullshit majors like business or English that most people can half ass, and those students cry and complain all the time about how miserable their lives are.
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Because America is stratified. Our best are the very best, but on average I wouldn't say our colleges and universities are that much better than the rest of the world. There are a lot of bad colleges and universities in America too.
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Here is a good analogy
Universities :: Linux
Public School System :: Windows
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I can't help but laugh at the snide attitude that some people have regarding public schools. I went to a public high school. I had fantastic teachers, many opportunities to take advanced classes and ended up at a great college. The fact of the matter is that if you are smart and work hard, then public schools provide every bit the education a private school can offer. If you have no ambition, you can coast through public school and learn nothing.
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As a transfer high school student from Thailand, I agree that U.S. high school system is certainly not as intense as ones in Asian countries. The "honor" and "AP" classes are the same level or even easier and less competitive than regular Asian classes.
Still, less intense academic allows students to enjoy other aspect of life such as sports, clubs, and services (or SCII for me  ) without sacrificing their grades or getting too overwhelmed. There is also less competition in the U.S. because there are more colleges option available, unlike in Asian countries where kids would kill themselves to get to a decent college. That's probably why wealthy Asian parents send their kids to the U.S.; they want their kids to be happy.
Edit: Oh, I'm in private school. I guess my experience is not applicable with the thread then >.< I have a friend in Ohio public school, though. He always call me to complain about his overwhelming workload. I guess U.S. public schools' quality depends on what state they are in.
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American public schools on the other hand are far from efficient, well-funded machines that only selectively choose who can come in. The atrocious American political system leaves many schools under funded and over supplied, which stifles any attempt towards improvement. A good chunk of kids going to American schools also have no desire to learn or even give a rats ass about anything. Without money and motivation, just about anything suffers.
I think one of the biggest issues plaguing the US public school system is the end goal for every student. US schools seem to operate towards preparing kids for college. What should happen is a tiered system of high schooling which has one level focused on trades, one level focused on professional nondegree careers and the last level focused on preparing students for eventual college education.
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On September 24 2011 02:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
I'd still be interested to know if anyone has a theory of why Asian countries with top achievement math and science high school scores have such bad universities compared to the US.
I believe this is the result of cultural difference. In Asia, High school is the most important part of your life. The curriculum is STACKED like no tomorrow. Students spends 14h/day just studying and doing HW in order to challenge the exam that decide their whole life.
Elementary and middle school are also much harder and teach materials faster, ask any Asian immigrant who went to school in Asia, it's like you barely learn anything in Math/Science for a few years after coming over. I came over to Canada when I was in the 3rd grade, and until the 8th-9th grade when we learned algebra and trigonometry, I never really found anything significant new in my math classes.
Universities are very different, it's perceived as an award, a chance to finally have a break and have your own life after the insanely stressful time of High school. The most important part of your student life is over, now you just have to coast through. The curriculum is also not as demanding, it's a more specialized approach into your career. Most people aren't used to have a new kind of freedom after high school, so they explore life, have fun + dating (which you weren't really allowed to in High school by parents/teachers). The pursuit of knowledge isn't as strong as one might think, most people studied hard in high school because they had to, not because they wanted to.
In other words, those who study for having a good score far far outnumber those who study because of interest compared to the more liberal approach in the West, where it's kind of the opposite, you drink and have fun in the early years, and catch up later in Uni and focus on where you really want to be.
There are many other reasons, but I believe this is the main cause. For example, I know that in China, those who have the highest score tests often go to become gov't officials rather than researchers.
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recall that when universities are being ranked on an international scale, the universities are largely ranked based on their research, the contributions they make to the scientific community, and the famous scientists that came from that school.
A high ranking school for their research, may very well have very bad teachers. It depends on their QA control when it comes to selecting lecturers and granting tenure to the many minds that work at each of those institutions.
One example that may come into consideration is the way graduate students are essentially used as cheap labor by some professors, often placing them under rather strict conditions and a harsh work environment. In some situations, they've been reported to bar their students from transferring facilities so that they have help for an additional year or two, it's not uncommon.
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The only paradox occurs when you make the mistake of trying to overly generalize an entire education system that includes differences in public-private, areas of specialty, and grade-level.
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Spending 1 trillion dollars a year on the military doesn't help either. This is the main reason why the public school system is so 'bad' because the government cuts money from public schools and puts it into the military.
Private schools are unaffected because they receive and allocate their funds they way they want, whilst public schools get their funding from the government and the value of local real estate.
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On September 24 2011 01:54 meadbert wrote:
American Universities are really International Universities located in America. There are a ton of students from other countries.
My hall Freshman year had 9 kids including kids from Peru, Taiwan, Thailand and Pakistan.
In grad school the diversity only increases.
Statistic source please?
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On September 24 2011 06:19 BryanSC wrote:
Most students at my school who are taking real majors (science) are foreigners or American students who have been in private schools their entire academic life prior to their admission. The overwhelming majority of American students however take bullshit majors like business or English that most people can half ass, and those students cry and complain all the time about how miserable their lives are.
I dunno about this. I mean I went to public school in High school from being in private school up until then and even I knew that public school was a joke compared to private (damn private HS can be expensive tho for a 1 parent family) But Plenty of my fellow students went into your "real" majors such as engineering/sciences/doctors. Business majors generally do well btw so wtf? The problem with majors like English and some of the other humanities is that too many people are graduating with those degrees and a lot of them require advanced degrees to actually do something in that field such as my own (biological anthropology). As for international students yes they are prevalent but if they stay in the US (I would say a fair amount do) then who cares as they become americans anyway.
At my undergradate university (Michigan State) They have the largest study abroad program in the country so they welcome international students studying here and american students going overseas. Even with this the majority of students at my school seemed to be american kids. Although my one friend who now is doing postgrad work in engineering there says most of the people in his lab are international students.
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EPT
