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About 1,500 people were turned away from pooled Benton County caucuses in Kennewick by event organizers after rooms at the Three Rivers Convention Center reached capacity this morning.
Some potential caucus voters said they arrived at 9 a.m. to find the large hallways at the convention center packed to the rafters and were told no more people could enter the caucus rooms.
Ray Swenson, a Richland lawyer, criticized local GOP officials for poor organization and said the results today should be invalidated.
"I think it's illegal," Swenson shouted to a gathered crowd, many of whom were filming him with cell phone cameras. "The Republican party leadership is taking away our freedom."
Swenson told the Herald he may file a lawsuit seeking to invalidate the caucus results.
"I think it's unconstitutional," he said. "Our right to vote is the most fundamental right in the Constitution. ... This is exactly equal to walking into a polling place and being told, 'We've run out of ballots. We didn't expect this many people. Go home.'"
Benton County Republican Party members who organized the caucuses said they estimated 2,000 people would show up at the convention center, where most of the county's precincts caucused today.
But their jaws dropped when they saw an estimated 3,000 people packed into the convention center's hallways and spilling outside.
"We where overwhelmed," said Tony Benegas of West Richland, chairman of the Kennewick caucuses. "It's tough because it's all volunteers — nobody gets paid to do this."
Benegas said it quickly became apparent there weren't enough volunteers to check everyone in — which in most cases involved looking up their voter registration on a list provided by the county Auditor and helping them find their precinct number, and that the rooms they booked were filled to capacity.
And the party was under pressure to finish by 11:30 so that results could be tabulated and turned over to the state party.
"We did pull the leadership aside and said, 'What are we going to do?'" Benegas said.
The only choice apparent was to close the doors and turn an estimated 1,500 people away, he said.
"I am extremely sorry we could not accommodate everyone," he said. "I apologize to those folks who we had to turn away. We fit in as many as we could, but we had more than we could physically fit in the rooms."
Source
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Remind me again why we still have caucasus?
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On March 04 2012 10:33 1Eris1 wrote:
Remind me again why we still have caucasus?
To make the media money.
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1019 Posts
On March 04 2012 10:33 1Eris1 wrote:
Remind me again why we still have caucasus?
Because the american voting system is a piece of shit.
On March 04 2012 08:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:
now, i wonder how you feel about all those liberals that called sarah palin: stupid, a c***, a bimbo, a tool, claimed that her baby wasn't hers, a ditz, a slut, etc. and have yet to apologize for any of it?
This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats.
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On March 04 2012 12:12 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 08:32 sc2superfan101 wrote:
now, i wonder how you feel about all those liberals that called sarah palin: stupid, a c***, a bimbo, a tool, claimed that her baby wasn't hers, a ditz, a slut, etc. and have yet to apologize for any of it? This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats.
i can understand the thinking that republicans say stupid things. i'm republican and i think they say stupid things. i can even understand the idea that it's ok to call them stupid things to say, and while i don't agree with it, i can even understand calling the republican who said it stupid.
i don't understand the idea that it is ok for democrats to say nasty things about republicans and not ok for republicans to say nasty things to democrats. a lot of republicans i know say that democrats are idiots and that they aren't thinking about things, and that they deserve to be called idiots and other nasty names. i always try to explain to them that democrats probably feel the same way about them, and that they will get angry when democrats name-call, so why should they do it? the response i always get seems to be the same one that you're giving me:
"well they are wrong. they are stupid."
well how is that supposed to solve anything? and what does that have to do with it? just because someone is wrong doesn't mean that it's suddenly ok to be mean to them. likewise, just because someone is right, that doesn't suddenly make it ok for them to be mean. if republicans are being meaner and nastier, ok, that might be true, still! how is responding in kind going to help anything? how dpes saying: "it's wrong that you are mean and nasty, so i'm gonna be mean and nasty back" stop the mean and nastiness? it only further encourages both sides to keep being mean and nasty because "they did it first!". where can we possibly go from there? if we want the discourse to be raised, and the nastiness to stop, we have to stop it. at some point, someone is going to have to say "be mean and nasty all you want, but i'm not going to let you drag me down."
i am not one to complain about the media. i hate it when republicans complain about the media. even if republicans are held to a higher standard, i think that's a good thing. republicans should hold themselves to a higher standard, and they all claim to, so then why should they be surprised when everyone else holds them to a higher standard? but at the same time, it's not fair to say that we can insult you because we think you're wrong, but you can't insult us. it's true, they shoudn't insult you even if you are insulting them, but no one should insult anyone! we should all try to be less insulting (unless we're not insulting, and then we are doing just fine).
rush was absolutely wrong in what he said. he should have made the point he was trying to make without calling that woman names, and without being insulting, and if he couldn't do that, he shouldn't have said anything at all. he is absolutely right if he feels like he needs to apologize, because he does need to apologize. i don't care what that student said, calling her a slut is out of line. even discussing her sex life is out of line. he did nothing but hurt himself and others when he did that. but calling sarah palin a c*** is the same thing! forget calling her stupid, i don't like that, but that's fine. well it's not fine, but it's acceptable. it's often followed by an argument as to why she's stupid, so what they really mean is that she says and believes stupid things. but calling her a c*** is indefensible. it adds nothing to the argument and it brings down everyone. if they think she's a c*** they should just keep their mouths shut. and that's why i said that. because it gets very tiring seeing all kinds of names being thrown by both sides and both sides try to justify it with bs excuses instead of owning up to it and saying: "i was out of line, and i need to watch my words."
we wonder why kids feel disinterested in politics, why millions of people refuse to vote, refuse to take part in running their country. we wonder why millions of people think both parties are the same and think that no one in the media or the government listens to them. well that's why! because both parties throw insults and entrench people and refuse to be civil. both parties make strawmen arguments out of their opponents positions, and both parties accuse the other of being something evil and nasty. it's ridiculous! i see more mannered discourse in preschools than i do in congressional debates. maybe these politicians could use some preschool time, because they obviously haven't learned the first lesson about dealing with other people which is "play nice!"
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United States22883 Posts
I'm glad you're posting here, sc2superfan101. 
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we wonder why kids feel disinterested in politics, why millions of people refuse to vote, refuse to take part in running their country. we wonder why millions of people think both parties are the same and think that no one in the media or the government listens to them. well that's why! because both parties throw insults and entrench people and refuse to be civil. both parties make strawmen arguments out of their opponents positions, and both parties accuse the other of being something evil and nasty. it's ridiculous! i see more mannered discourse in preschools than i do in congressional debates. maybe these politicians could use some preschool time, because they obviously haven't learned the first lesson about dealing with other people which is "play nice!"
The amusing thing is neither the republican nor the democratic party could continue to exist without the other. The republican party to satisfy the religious and conservative base of America, and the democratic party to "reel them in" when they start getting crazy. The lesser of two evils working off each other to make sure the status quo stays. In the meantime, they insult each other, but it's really just part of their overall strategy. Without the animonisty between the parties, people may begin to suspect what is really going on.
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It's not really fair to put politicians and comedians in the same category. I couldn't care less if a comedian call someone an idiot, I do if it's an politician. They should be held to a higher standard.
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On March 04 2012 14:12 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +
we wonder why kids feel disinterested in politics, why millions of people refuse to vote, refuse to take part in running their country. we wonder why millions of people think both parties are the same and think that no one in the media or the government listens to them. well that's why! because both parties throw insults and entrench people and refuse to be civil. both parties make strawmen arguments out of their opponents positions, and both parties accuse the other of being something evil and nasty. it's ridiculous! i see more mannered discourse in preschools than i do in congressional debates. maybe these politicians could use some preschool time, because they obviously haven't learned the first lesson about dealing with other people which is "play nice!"
The amusing thing is neither the republican nor the democratic party could continue to exist without the other. The republican party to satisfy the religious and conservative base of America, and the democratic party to "reel them in" when they start getting crazy. The lesser of two evils working off each other to make sure the status quo stays. In the meantime, they insult each other, but it's really just part of their overall strategy. Without the animonisty between the parties, people may begin to suspect what is really going on.
Everyone knows that it's picking between two lesser evils most of the time. Obama sort of broke that, because people actually like him, but certainly the bush elections felt that way.
I'm frustrated with the republicans. I don't think they want small government. Social conservatives want to interfere in your personal life and the there's nothing small government about that. But I think almost all of them are completely disingenuous when it comes to reducing government.
It would be nice if the republicans went more of the way of Ron Paul. Then it would actually be between small and big government instead of "big government that I like" and "big government I don't like." Because that's honestly how it feels right now.
rush was absolutely wrong in what he said. he should have made the point he was trying to make without calling that woman names, and without being insulting, and if he couldn't do that, he shouldn't have said anything at all. he is absolutely right if he feels like he needs to apologize, because he does need to apologize. i don't care what that student said, calling her a slut is out of line. even discussing her sex life is out of line. he did nothing but hurt himself and others when he did that. but calling sarah palin a c*** is the same thing! forget calling her stupid, i don't like that, but that's fine. well it's not fine, but it's acceptable. it's often followed by an argument as to why she's stupid, so what they really mean is that she says and believes stupid things. but calling her a c*** is indefensible. it adds nothing to the argument and it brings down everyone. if they think she's a c*** they should just keep their mouths shut. and that's why i said that. because it gets very tiring seeing all kinds of names being thrown by both sides and both sides try to justify it with bs excuses instead of owning up to it and saying: "i was out of line, and i need to watch my words."
Who called someone a c***? Seriously, I actually want some proof of this. Maher may be an asshole, but that does seem rather Out Of Character.
So what do we do supersc2fan, when politicians are being incredibly disrespectful toward people? Santorum and several of the republican candidates have been rather clear about their opinions about homosexuals (and some about women, some about atheists etc.), and it is very disrespectful honestly. I find rather astonishing that they think they can get away with being so insulting in public.
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AHAHAHA oh Santorum, you bring a smile of madness every time I read up about you.
There are 18,000 married gay and lesbian couples in California and at least 131,000 nationwide according to the 2010 census, conducted before New York state legalized same-sex marriage in July.
Rick Santorum says he'll try to unmarry all of them if he's elected president.
Once the U.S. Constitution is amended to prohibit same-gender marriages, "their marriage would be invalid," the former Pennsylvania senator said Dec. 30 in an NBC News interview.
"We can't have 50 different marriage laws in this country," he said. "You have to have one marriage law."
Source and more at:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/03/MN3Q1N9EV9.DTL
He just keeps upping the ante.
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This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats.
This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives.
The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.?
You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments.
You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 05 2012 01:21 Chaosvuistje wrote:AHAHAHA oh Santorum, you bring a smile of madness every time I read up about you. Show nested quote +
There are 18,000 married gay and lesbian couples in California and at least 131,000 nationwide according to the 2010 census, conducted before New York state legalized same-sex marriage in July.
Rick Santorum says he'll try to unmarry all of them if he's elected president.
Once the U.S. Constitution is amended to prohibit same-gender marriages, "their marriage would be invalid," the former Pennsylvania senator said Dec. 30 in an NBC News interview.
"We can't have 50 different marriage laws in this country," he said. "You have to have one marriage law."
Source and more at:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/03/MN3Q1N9EV9.DTL He just keeps upping the ante.
State's rights. 
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On March 05 2012 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats. This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives. The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.? You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments. You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives.
That doesn't seem like a very objective opinion.
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On March 05 2012 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats. This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives. The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.? You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments. You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives.
Just based on reading this thread and others on TL, I have to agree that liberals more often resort to name calling, ad hominem, and straw men. It's really sad to me, and I've been trying to make posts asking people to justify their ideas instead of just calling the other side crazy all the time. It's the IDEAS that matter, not the specific politicians who have endless faults. We should focus on the ideas, not the person, as much as possible. I agree that Rick Santorum is a complete tool and expresses horrible ideas much of the time, but he doesn't represent the entirety of conservative ideology. He simply represents the anti-Romney vote, and the religious fundamentalists.
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On March 05 2012 02:25 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats. This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives. The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.? You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments. You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives. Just based on reading this thread and others on TL, I have to agree that liberals more often resort to name calling, ad hominem, and straw men. It's really sad to me, and I've been trying to make posts asking people to justify their ideas instead of just calling the other side crazy all the time. It's the IDEAS that matter, not the specific politicians who have endless faults. We should focus on the ideas, not the person, as much as possible. I agree that Rick Santorum is a complete tool and expresses horrible ideas much of the time, but he doesn't represent the entirety of conservative ideology. He simply represents the anti-Romney vote, and the religious fundamentalists.
Agreed, but unfortunately that´s not how it works in a democracy that is transported by big partisan media corporation on both sides. And from my point of view, there are enough reasons to not vote for Obama this time, but the problem of the Republicans this time around, is that they THEMSELVES are delivering the biggest reasons to reelect him.... The horrendous debates, the freak show of early candidates, the flip flopping of the best( "most electable" because elections are usually won in the middle) candidate, Santorum, the disregard of good Ron Paul ideas over and over again....the list continues.
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I'm still hoping for romney and santorum to be caught on something really dirty (corruption or gay sex between them) and Ron Paul gets elected
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On March 05 2012 02:25 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats. This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives. The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.? You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments. You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives. Just based on reading this thread and others on TL, I have to agree that liberals more often resort to name calling, ad hominem, and straw men. It's really sad to me, and I've been trying to make posts asking people to justify their ideas instead of just calling the other side crazy all the time. It's the IDEAS that matter, not the specific politicians who have endless faults. We should focus on the ideas, not the person, as much as possible. I agree that Rick Santorum is a complete tool and expresses horrible ideas much of the time, but he doesn't represent the entirety of conservative ideology. He simply represents the anti-Romney vote, and the religious fundamentalists.
That's funny because I 100% believe that you feel like you're actually right. By the way, I'll say left and right instead of "conservatives" and "liberals" which is confusing and people think liberalism is on the left.
I argue politics in a very wide range of forums in two languages and the people who resort to strawman fallacies, sloppy red herrings, appeal to emotion and other logical fallacies tend to be on the right by a long, long shot. Granted, it may not look that way because admittedly, there are more people from the left everywhere on the Internet, perhaps because they like - have access to information or something. (wololz!)
That said, I just betrayed myself. Yes, unfortunately, the majority from the left will bash the minority from the right on the Internet. Granted, that wasn't an ad hominem because it wasn't really meant to be an argument. You have to understand though, that it's hard for people like myself to be very respectful of a person who's ideals are incompatible to mine, because I have strong principles, and I'll defend them - perhaps too valiantly. I'll have a civil discussion with the moderate right, but I can't keep my cool with the extreme right, sometimes racists, sexists, hatred of homosexuals, with arguments that make no sense. Hell, come to think of it, I can't keep my cool with morons from the moderate right - or from the moderate left for that matter.
I love debating with smart people from the right, who sometimes move me and change my perspective ever so slightly. I love discussions about the "grey area" of some arguments with people who disagree with me. But sometimes, you're going up against someone and it's like "playing chess with a pigeon, no matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is going to knock over the pieces and crap all over the board to then strut around like it's victorious". And it happens to you too, I'm sure - how are you to write an argument against someone who's argument is that you're stupid for thinking X and Y?
Recently I was on a French-speaking board and I got caught in a crossfire because I'm more than happy to bring down the thunder to both sides. I was arguing against the far-left (full-blown communists and such). Suddenly, xenophobes and WN's were backing up my arguments, while adding garbage on top of them. And there I was, arguing against the far left, the far right, and people in the middle were misinterpreting my arguments, so I had to spend hours explaining my arguments for the moderate left and right to understand where I was coming from.
Things get heated up and it's partially because there are a lot of people who have an argument but they don't know what they're talking about. This is especially annoying for me, a political science masters student, when I see my field of study being shat on and desecrated by people who say things like "the minimum wage should be increased from $10 to $30" and "kill all the illegals who are taking our jobs" and "Obama will pay my mortgage" or "taxes are theft and shouldn't exist at all". I don't know how to respond to that - those pigeons don't fly in my university.
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On March 05 2012 02:25 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats. This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives. The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.? You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments. You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives. Just based on reading this thread and others on TL, I have to agree that liberals more often resort to name calling, ad hominem, and straw men. It's really sad to me, and I've been trying to make posts asking people to justify their ideas instead of just calling the other side crazy all the time. It's the IDEAS that matter, not the specific politicians who have endless faults. We should focus on the ideas, not the person, as much as possible. I agree that Rick Santorum is a complete tool and expresses horrible ideas much of the time, but he doesn't represent the entirety of conservative ideology. He simply represents the anti-Romney vote, and the religious fundamentalists.
Isn't that completely unfair? I mean this is the Republican Nominations thread. Obviously we're talking about the republicans, so they are going to be the targets. If this was a more balanced thread, like "Obama vs. Romney Thread" or something, then we'd see more attacks on ze liberals.
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On March 05 2012 02:25 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats. This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives. The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.? You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments. You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives. Just based on reading this thread and others on TL, I have to agree that liberals more often resort to name calling, ad hominem, and straw men. It's really sad to me, and I've been trying to make posts asking people to justify their ideas instead of just calling the other side crazy all the time. It's the IDEAS that matter, not the specific politicians who have endless faults. We should focus on the ideas, not the person, as much as possible. I agree that Rick Santorum is a complete tool and expresses horrible ideas much of the time, but he doesn't represent the entirety of conservative ideology. He simply represents the anti-Romney vote, and the religious fundamentalists.
If a party platform is at a point where the entire field pretty much supports some form of religious 'supremacy', homophobia, mild xenophobia (etc) and people are criticizing that, they are criticizing ideas and ideology and not personal traits of candidates. I read this thread regularly and I hardly see any of the name calling, ad homimen or straw man attacks you are referring to. Most of the debate on these forums is on the actual platform these candidates are running on, which I agree is different from a true conservative ideology (which would grant gays equal rights within seconds), but the 'ideal theory' isn't the republican platform. The republican platform is the lunacy that Santorum is promoting and is forcing Romney to go along with.
Also, when you're electing a president, individual traits do matter. Individuals that have proven to be unable to reach compromises and only manage to establish a 'cult of self' (Gingrich), or those that reject science in their personal lives (Santorum), these are obviously traits that have implications on an eventual presidency and voters would be right in taking these features into consideration.
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On March 05 2012 03:07 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 02:25 liberal wrote:On March 05 2012 02:13 DeepElemBlues wrote:This is the problem with republicans who rag on the "elite" media. You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of republican politicians say stupid things that warrant such ridicule from the media. Democrats have their share of dumb politicians but the republican party is producing people like bachmann, sarah palin, glenn beck, christine odonnell, etc etc and your surprised that the majority of the media isn't saying nice things about them? Both GOP and democrats are terrible right now, but if you look at it from a relative standpoint, theres so much more impoliteness, vitriol, and hate spewing from the republicans than there are democrats. This is the problem with liberals who justify being assholes with the brilliant argument of "because." You guys don't seem to realize that the current generation of liberals say stupid things that warrant the complaints leveled at you. Conservatives have their fair share of dumb people saying dumb things, but when liberals produce people like Markos Moulitsas, Matt Yglesias, Matt Taibbi, Harry Reid, every other poster at Daily Kos not named Markos Moulitsas, 95% of the writers and commenters at the Huffington Post, etc., you're surprised that you're portrayed as immature assholes? Both conservatives and liberals produce terrible assholes, but if you look at it from a comparative standpoint, there is so much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals than there is from conservatives. The only difference is that there actually is much, much more impoliteness, vitriol, outright lying, and hate spewing from liberals. The worst you can expect from mainstream conservative publications like the National Review or the Weekly Standard is a squishy kind of disdain, as opposed to the (cheered) regular, sophomoric insults you will find at "respected" liberal publications/shows like the New York Times editorial page, The New York Review of Books, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, Slate.com, Newsweek/Daily Beast (can you imagine National Review leading with a cover story entitled, "Why are critics of Republicans so dumb?" The way Newsbeast did with Andrew Sullivan asking that question about critics of President Obama?), Real Time with Bill Maher, Salon.com, Countdown with Keith Olbermann, Young Turks with Cenk Uygur, The Rachel Maddow Show, etc.? You're either a liar or tremendously ignorant if you think that liberals don't engage in more simple name-calling than conservatives in the media outside of daytime talk radio. The only other place conservatives even manage to come close is the internet. Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are on Fox News for what, 2 hours a day, compared to the hundred+ daily hours of programming containing liberals calling conservatives racist, misogynist, accusing them of the usually incompatible crimes of stupidity and chicanery, etc., based on lies and the most tendentious of arguments. You can't read, watch, or listen to any liberal outlet without being subjected to a constant barrage of name-calling, strawmen, and general juvenile behavior aimed at conservatives. Just based on reading this thread and others on TL, I have to agree that liberals more often resort to name calling, ad hominem, and straw men. It's really sad to me, and I've been trying to make posts asking people to justify their ideas instead of just calling the other side crazy all the time. It's the IDEAS that matter, not the specific politicians who have endless faults. We should focus on the ideas, not the person, as much as possible. I agree that Rick Santorum is a complete tool and expresses horrible ideas much of the time, but he doesn't represent the entirety of conservative ideology. He simply represents the anti-Romney vote, and the religious fundamentalists. Isn't that completely unfair? I mean this is the Republican Nominations thread. Obviously we're talking about the republicans, so they are going to be the targets. If this was a more balanced thread, like "Obama vs. Romney Thread" or something, then we'd see more attacks on ze liberals.
I'm just talking about all the posts that repeat non-arguments like "X is crazy." That seems to be the most common, calling someone "crazy." And I don't care if people think that about one of the Republican nominees, some of their ideas ARE crazy. I just wish people would articulate WHY they think that way instead of relying on lazy attacks like that.
I think it's more a numbers thing... There are far more liberals on TL, and so the few conservatives who speak up usually feel the need to explain or justify their reasoning, while the liberals won't catch much slack for just making "lol these people are stupid and crazy" kind of posts. I've criticized those types of mindless posts in the past, and what I get are a bunch of people responding with "but they ARE stupid and crazy." They are missing my point entirely, they need to articulate why they feel that way instead of using it as the premise of their beliefs. I just want this to be a battle of ideas instead of a battle of labels.
Personally I think labels are stupid. That might sound funny because my name is liberal, and I guess it is. But people have very different definitions of what a liberal is, especially from one nation to the next. When I say liberal in my posts, I'm referring to what Americans call liberal, because that's become the common meaning here, although that's not what I consider myself with this name. I think labels like "liberal" are just a too vague, but the labels I really think are bad are the kind of "stupid, crazy" labels I was talking about.
I'm already ranting so I might as well continue. The political process that goes on, especially in the US, focuses so much on the individuals and not the philosophies. It's like a popularity contest. They focus on people's sex life and their looks and religion and marriage.... All of that is irrelevant to me. The media tries often to label a certain politician as immoral or hypocritical or whatever, and the whole issue of debating what type of society we would like to live in gets lost. And I hate to see that carry over into forums like this one, where people pick a side, and defend their side at all costs and attack the other side at all costs, and forget the ideas are what need to be questioned and fought.
I was agreeing with deepelem that these attacks tend to be more frequent from American "liberals" than from conservatives. It feels like such people are more worried about feeling smarter than other people than actually arguing ideas or trying to win people over to their thinking. I respect conservatives who try to argue a position, even if I think the position is stupid. I don't respect liberals who resort to calling something stupid without articulating why. Otherwise the forum because a pointless circle jerk.
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EPT
