On August 06 2011 17:19 Gamegene wrote: Where's the controversy here? The guy didn't follow the rules and got in trouble for it.
The consumer safety laws are in place so you don't get crappy food that won't make you sick, not so they can pick on you, jesus christ. People are getting huffy and puffy over no reason.
Just follow the fucking rules and you'll be fine!
This is a joke, right?
Yes, Just follow the fucking rules! What a brilliant idea! Don't question faulty laws! Don't question potential problems in our society! Just follow the fucking rules! Buy into every rule that is put in place and we'll all be happy, living under a government that controls every fucking aspect of our lives.
This country was based on individual freedom. If I want to buy unpasteurized milk, then for fucks sake let me buy unpasteurized milk. No doubt there should be a warning that it is potentially harmful. The issue with buying unpasteurized milk is that I'm not buying from corporate farmers. God forbid we farm our own food, and sell food that we farm. We should have to buy into huge farms. Make organic farmers just through every fucking loop so that eventually, we don't have any organic, local farms. I find it disgusting that I am allowed to buy cigarettes, but not local organic products that don't have corporate ties.
When it comes down to it, cigarette company's are huge corporations that have pull in the government. Organic farms are small companies with weak ties to the government. Both are potentially harmful yet one is able to legally operate its business.
Sadly, most people aren't fully educated on our nation's origins and thus don't fully respect the principles upon which it was founded.
It's threads like these that make me firmly believe the viewership of TL comprises of mostly teenagers, because I can model their thought processes based on their posts and compare it to when I was that age.
story from my village. one day young tree say to him father "father why do you stay in village? the world is for tree, is it not?"
to the young tree, father reply, "the world is for tree, it is true, but the roots which nourish tree and the bark that protect tree make it harder to move. so we must move slow"
"that is dumb", ambition sapling say, "i will be free. root will not hold me, i will find my own nourishment, bark will not restrain me for i am young and strong" this he say for all to hear.
next day he die.
We've gone from raw milk to talking trees all in one thread. Congrats.
On August 07 2011 03:18 caradoc wrote: I dont quite follow you. You just copy-pasted and edited 'your' into my post.
I think you're trying to say that I'm being hypocritical. But my position is not equivalent to his at all.
He's presumably labelling people who disagree with his viewpoint as anti-government extremists. I'm pointing out that the ability to label people as such in a sensical way in this context, where there is no real evidence of singleminded anti-government sentiment or extremism is only indicative of an environment that makes dissent difficult and normalizes the status quo.
You took the phrase "anti government extremists" and accused him of "marginalizing dissent" with a ludicrous explanation.
You have no right to talk.
haha, speaking of marginalizing dissent. =) Essentially that was my point, and your responses are precisely in line with his original response, which further emphasizes it.
I see that you take issue with my post. That's fabulous. I would be more than happy to respond to a sensible critique of it, or even a request for clarification. I urge you to make such a reply in the near future so that we can contribute to the overall quality of this thread, provided it is on topic, as I believe that we are dangerously close to being off on a tangent, and we don't want to derail this thread.
On topic:
I'm also surprised that so few people have pointed out that raw milk is pretty commonplace in Europe.
I've never seen raw milk sold anywhere in any of the countries I have visited in Europe
French cheese is the most obvious example. There are also raw milk vending machines in France.
In Germany, theres Vorzugsmilch, which is sold everywhere.
you can get it in the UK in many farmers markets...
Not to mention that the FDA also approves drugs as safe which end up killing hundred thousand people in the US every year.
Drugs that kill hundreds of thousands of people in the US every year, what? Name me a drug that has FDA approval that has directly killed 100,000 people.
We estimated that in 1994 overall 2216000 (1721000-2711000) hospitalized patients had serious ADRs and 106000 (76000-137000) had fatal ADRs
ADR = adverse drug reaction. That is, the drug having an unexpected harmful side effect. We're not talking about toddlers swallowing some pills or elderly not taking their meds properly. We're talking about people being cured by doctors and nurses with prescription drugs that were approved as safe by the FDA.
What you don't seem to understand is that people are only taking those drugs because they're sick. Drugs are not magic, they all have side effects. You only take drugs when you think the benefits outweight the side effects. Chemo causes all sorts of adverse drug reactions, but people do it to live a few months or years longer because otherwise they'd die of cancer faster.
On August 07 2011 03:18 caradoc wrote: I dont quite follow you. You just copy-pasted and edited 'your' into my post.
I think you're trying to say that I'm being hypocritical. But my position is not equivalent to his at all.
He's presumably labelling people who disagree with his viewpoint as anti-government extremists. I'm pointing out that the ability to label people as such in a sensical way in this context, where there is no real evidence of singleminded anti-government sentiment or extremism is only indicative of an environment that makes dissent difficult and normalizes the status quo.
You took the phrase "anti government extremists" and accused him of "marginalizing dissent" with a ludicrous explanation.
You have no right to talk.
haha, speaking of marginalizing dissent. =) Essentially that was my point, and your responses are precisely in line with his original response, which further emphasizes it.
I see that you take issue with my post. That's fabulous. I would be more than happy to respond to a sensible critique of it, or even a request for clarification. I urge you to make such a reply in the near future so that we can contribute to the overall quality of this thread, provided it is on topic, as I believe that we are dangerously close to being off on a tangent, and we don't want to derail this thread.
On topic:
I'm also surprised that so few people have pointed out that raw milk is pretty commonplace in Europe.
I've never seen raw milk sold anywhere in any of the countries I have visited in Europe
French cheese is the most obvious example. There are also raw milk vending machines in France.
In Germany, theres Vorzugsmilch, which is sold everywhere.
you can get it in the UK in many farmers markets...
Guys, stop equating raw milk cheese to raw milk, they are NOT the same. If raw milk cheese is aged for >60 days, the pathogenic bacteria are dead. Raw milk is consumed without any process that can kill pathogenic bacteria.
On August 07 2011 03:18 caradoc wrote: I dont quite follow you. You just copy-pasted and edited 'your' into my post.
I think you're trying to say that I'm being hypocritical. But my position is not equivalent to his at all.
He's presumably labelling people who disagree with his viewpoint as anti-government extremists. I'm pointing out that the ability to label people as such in a sensical way in this context, where there is no real evidence of singleminded anti-government sentiment or extremism is only indicative of an environment that makes dissent difficult and normalizes the status quo.
You took the phrase "anti government extremists" and accused him of "marginalizing dissent" with a ludicrous explanation.
You have no right to talk.
haha, speaking of marginalizing dissent. =) Essentially that was my point, and your responses are precisely in line with his original response, which further emphasizes it.
I see that you take issue with my post. That's fabulous. I would be more than happy to respond to a sensible critique of it, or even a request for clarification. I urge you to make such a reply in the near future so that we can contribute to the overall quality of this thread, provided it is on topic, as I believe that we are dangerously close to being off on a tangent, and we don't want to derail this thread.
On topic:
I'm also surprised that so few people have pointed out that raw milk is pretty commonplace in Europe.
I've never seen raw milk sold anywhere in any of the countries I have visited in Europe
French cheese is the most obvious example. There are also raw milk vending machines in France.
In Germany, theres Vorzugsmilch, which is sold everywhere.
you can get it in the UK in many farmers markets...
Guys, stop equating raw milk cheese to raw milk, they are NOT the same. If raw milk cheese is aged for >60 days, the pathogenic bacteria are dead. Raw milk is consumed without any process that can kill pathogenic bacteria.
did you read my post? I gave three examples of raw milk being sold at a wide scale in different countries in Europe, and one example of cheese, and you say my argument of raw milk being safe is invalid because cheese is safe?
On August 07 2011 04:31 NET wrote: (I am not here to quarrel with anyone, I am humbly here to just give some of my basic knowledge in order to help others understand what is going on.)
To begin with, it is not an attack on organic food, its an attack on illegal vendors selling potentially hazardous foods.
Without oversight of that illegal vendor, how do consumers know if the proper measurements were taken to properly transport the product. How do we know if the milk and cheese being stored in their refrigerators is the correct temperature so that bacterial growth is at least not exponential.
Also I don't understand the fad of drinking raw milk. People assume its healthier, but scientific evidence proves otherwise. Think about it for a second. Milk is taken from a cow by a farmer for example. How do we know if his hands are clean or if they are full of either cow feces or feces of his own. That contamination spreads, from that one instance, to the entire container holding all of the milk, therefore contaminating the entire product. Raw milk will sell the product as is. (As stated before I think people are confused about the difference between organic and raw milk, its completely understandable because how many people really know and study this topic anyways?)
Pasteurization, and even better, ultra pasteurization helps kill many of the bacteria and other mircboes that are proven to be harmful to your health using heat (The only downside to using this method is that some people think it taste different(ergo worse), but that's just a matter of preference, you like to play zerg over terran because you like their style better, etc) . Lets talk Listeria monocytogenes. Here is an excerpt, but hopefully you will read the entire page: "It is one of the most virulent foodborne pathogens, with 20 to 30 percent of clinical infections resulting in death.[1] Responsible for approximately 2,500 illnesses and 500 deaths in the United States (U.S.) annually, listeriosis is the leading cause of death among foodborne bacterial pathogens, with fatality rates exceeding even Salmonella and Clostridium botulinum.[2]" Milk and milk products are some of the most common sources of listeria. I think because there is so much regulation in the food industry and that not as many outbreaks occur due to the this fact, people over time forget how dangerous raw milk truly is. In truth though, there is not enough people to check every batch of milk or every carton of eggs even in the regulated industry, so we do see cases appear every so often, which is when we hear about huge recalls on food.
You have to remember that the regulations in place are not there for your average healthy adult, but rather for you susceptible young children, your elderly, and your immunocompromised. Hopefully I helped clear a few things up, and not just add more confusing to this already controversial topic.
Great post.
Also, what a bunch of obnoxious people in OP's youtube clips.
Thank you sir. As for those people, they are entitled to their own opinions, its what makes this country great. The media seems to portray their side of the story more so than the other. It has more entertainment value, so its expected.
On August 07 2011 04:55 caradoc wrote: it should be mentioned that the increasing occurrence of listeriosis poisonings is precisely one of the reasons that people are turning increasingly to small scale, local organic food (of which organic raw milk is an example). Industrial food production in and of itself guarantees neither health nor safety.
I agree with the use of small scale farms in terms of a health perspective as well as in a small business perspective. But as far as practicality and affordability, especially during these economic downturns people will opt to purchase the cheaper mass scale milk products. In terms of health, we could be doing so much more in our efforts towards the public's health and well being, but as stated before we have no money to do so, so we make due with what we have.
On August 07 2011 04:31 NET wrote: (I am not here to quarrel with anyone, I am humbly here to just give some of my basic knowledge in order to help others understand what is going on.)
To begin with, it is not an attack on organic food, its an attack on illegal vendors selling potentially hazardous foods.
Without oversight of that illegal vendor, how do consumers know if the proper measurements were taken to properly transport the product. How do we know if the milk and cheese being stored in their refrigerators is the correct temperature so that bacterial growth is at least not exponential.
Also I don't understand the fad of drinking raw milk. People assume its healthier, but scientific evidence proves otherwise. Think about it for a second. Milk is taken from a cow by a farmer for example. How do we know if his hands are clean or if they are full of either cow feces or feces of his own. That contamination spreads, from that one instance, to the entire container holding all of the milk, therefore contaminating the entire product. Raw milk will sell the product as is. (As stated before I think people are confused about the difference between organic and raw milk, its completely understandable because how many people really know and study this topic anyways?)
Pasteurization, and even better, ultra pasteurization helps kill many of the bacteria and other mircboes that are proven to be harmful to your health using heat (The only downside to using this method is that some people think it taste different(ergo worse), but that's just a matter of preference, you like to play zerg over terran because you like their style better, etc) . Lets talk Listeria monocytogenes. Here is an excerpt, but hopefully you will read the entire page: "It is one of the most virulent foodborne pathogens, with 20 to 30 percent of clinical infections resulting in death.[1] Responsible for approximately 2,500 illnesses and 500 deaths in the United States (U.S.) annually, listeriosis is the leading cause of death among foodborne bacterial pathogens, with fatality rates exceeding even Salmonella and Clostridium botulinum.[2]" Milk and milk products are some of the most common sources of listeria. I think because there is so much regulation in the food industry and that not as many outbreaks occur due to the this fact, people over time forget how dangerous raw milk truly is. In truth though, there is not enough people to check every batch of milk or every carton of eggs even in the regulated industry, so we do see cases appear every so often, which is when we hear about huge recalls on food.
You have to remember that the regulations in place are not there for your average healthy adult, but rather for you susceptible young children, your elderly, and your immunocompromised. Hopefully I helped clear a few things up, and not just add more confusing to this already controversial topic.
it should be mentioned that the increasing occurrence of listeriosis poisonings is precisely one of the reasons that people are turning increasingly to small scale, local organic food (of which organic raw milk is an example). Industrial food production in and of itself guarantees neither health nor safety.
Could you show me a study or some other factual evidence that proves your point?
Otherwise you are just claiming stuff and that is, not really part of a discussion, when it comes to scientific facts.
On August 06 2011 14:29 shinosai wrote: Number two: We've remained quiet about the war on drugs, but now we have a war on organic food? Just how far does the government plan on going with telling us what we can and cannot have in our systems? They might have an argument that you are a danger to others when on drugs, but what possible danger can you have to others for eating and drinking organic? Why is the government now telling us what we can and cannot eat/drink?
It's my opinion here that this raid was absurd, and so is California law. How dare the government try and tell us what is healthy, when they created the joke that is known as the food pyramid. And whether or not you think raw milk is unsafe, what right do they have to regulate what I choose to drink. It's not even a drug!
As always, please keep the conversation civil. If you disagree with my opinion, feel free to post a counterargument that will persuade me.
With government health care insurance, they now have a vested interest in the cost of keeping us healthy, therefore they have more say in "laying down the law" upon what they consider to be a source of higher health care costs.
I agree 100% with the OP, just as the war on drugs is stupid, this is too. Seriously, why the fuck should the government care if people want to drink raw milk? Slap a warning label on it and let people do what they want, such a violation of personal autonomy not to mention a huge waste of time and money investigating/prosecuting people like this.
On August 07 2011 04:31 NET wrote: (I am not here to quarrel with anyone, I am humbly here to just give some of my basic knowledge in order to help others understand what is going on.)
To begin with, it is not an attack on organic food, its an attack on illegal vendors selling potentially hazardous foods.
Without oversight of that illegal vendor, how do consumers know if the proper measurements were taken to properly transport the product. How do we know if the milk and cheese being stored in their refrigerators is the correct temperature so that bacterial growth is at least not exponential.
Also I don't understand the fad of drinking raw milk. People assume its healthier, but scientific evidence proves otherwise. Think about it for a second. Milk is taken from a cow by a farmer for example. How do we know if his hands are clean or if they are full of either cow feces or feces of his own. That contamination spreads, from that one instance, to the entire container holding all of the milk, therefore contaminating the entire product. Raw milk will sell the product as is. (As stated before I think people are confused about the difference between organic and raw milk, its completely understandable because how many people really know and study this topic anyways?)
Pasteurization, and even better, ultra pasteurization helps kill many of the bacteria and other mircboes that are proven to be harmful to your health using heat (The only downside to using this method is that some people think it taste different(ergo worse), but that's just a matter of preference, you like to play zerg over terran because you like their style better, etc) . Lets talk Listeria monocytogenes. Here is an excerpt, but hopefully you will read the entire page: "It is one of the most virulent foodborne pathogens, with 20 to 30 percent of clinical infections resulting in death.[1] Responsible for approximately 2,500 illnesses and 500 deaths in the United States (U.S.) annually, listeriosis is the leading cause of death among foodborne bacterial pathogens, with fatality rates exceeding even Salmonella and Clostridium botulinum.[2]" Milk and milk products are some of the most common sources of listeria. I think because there is so much regulation in the food industry and that not as many outbreaks occur due to the this fact, people over time forget how dangerous raw milk truly is. In truth though, there is not enough people to check every batch of milk or every carton of eggs even in the regulated industry, so we do see cases appear every so often, which is when we hear about huge recalls on food.
You have to remember that the regulations in place are not there for your average healthy adult, but rather for you susceptible young children, your elderly, and your immunocompromised. Hopefully I helped clear a few things up, and not just add more confusing to this already controversial topic.
it should be mentioned that the increasing occurrence of listeriosis poisonings is precisely one of the reasons that people are turning increasingly to small scale, local organic food (of which organic raw milk is an example). Industrial food production in and of itself guarantees neither health nor safety.
Could you show me a study or some other factual evidence that proves your point?
Otherwise you are just claiming stuff and that is, not really part of a discussion, when it comes to scientific facts.
1000th post. I should probably feel honoured.
I don't think I need to respond to this here though as I think you're just derailing-- it is so common sense that a major motivation of people moving towards organic food is the perception that industrial food is unsafe and unsustainable, as evidenced by, for example, the fairly recent (2008) maple leaf listeria incident. If you're really interested in finding out more, you can PM me though, as I'd love to educate you if you're actually receptive and not just seeking an argument. (and I apologize in advance for my misperception of your stance if that is in fact the case)
On August 07 2011 03:18 caradoc wrote: I dont quite follow you. You just copy-pasted and edited 'your' into my post.
I think you're trying to say that I'm being hypocritical. But my position is not equivalent to his at all.
He's presumably labelling people who disagree with his viewpoint as anti-government extremists. I'm pointing out that the ability to label people as such in a sensical way in this context, where there is no real evidence of singleminded anti-government sentiment or extremism is only indicative of an environment that makes dissent difficult and normalizes the status quo.
You took the phrase "anti government extremists" and accused him of "marginalizing dissent" with a ludicrous explanation.
You have no right to talk.
haha, speaking of marginalizing dissent. =) Essentially that was my point, and your responses are precisely in line with his original response, which further emphasizes it.
I see that you take issue with my post. That's fabulous. I would be more than happy to respond to a sensible critique of it, or even a request for clarification. I urge you to make such a reply in the near future so that we can contribute to the overall quality of this thread, provided it is on topic, as I believe that we are dangerously close to being off on a tangent, and we don't want to derail this thread.
On topic:
I'm also surprised that so few people have pointed out that raw milk is pretty commonplace in Europe.
I've never seen raw milk sold anywhere in any of the countries I have visited in Europe
French cheese is the most obvious example. There are also raw milk vending machines in France.
In Germany, theres Vorzugsmilch, which is sold everywhere.
you can get it in the UK in many farmers markets...
Guys, stop equating raw milk cheese to raw milk, they are NOT the same. If raw milk cheese is aged for >60 days, the pathogenic bacteria are dead. Raw milk is consumed without any process that can kill pathogenic bacteria.
did you read my post? I gave three examples of raw milk being sold at a wide scale in different countries in Europe, and one example of cheese, and you say my argument of raw milk being safe is invalid because cheese is safe?
Not true with that "wide scale" about the "Vorzugsmilch" in Germany, though I must admit I may have overlooked what products exactly there are in the supermarkets I frequent, because I do not really look in the refrigerated milk area and always buy the ultra-high-temperature treated milk.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, calling it wide scale is a matter of definition, and it is probably true that you can get raw milk in every city in Germany, though not in supermarkets.
It's my opinion here that this raid was absurd, and so is California law. How dare the government try and tell us what is healthy, when they created the joke that is known as the food pyramid. And whether or not you think raw milk is unsafe, what right do they have to regulate what I choose to drink. It's not even a drug!
.
They are not regulating what you can eat or drink; they are regulating what can be sold. It's the FDA's responsibility to make sure dangerous food materials aren't put on the market. If the science says these foods are dangerous then they aren't going to allow it to be sold. It is good policy.
Also, its kind of stupid to sell illegal food merchandise. What are you going to do when it harms someone? As a matter of law, you sold illegal food and you are responsible for any harm that comes from it whether you are negligent or not. Maybe it is better that the government shut them down before they harmed some litigious fool.
It's my opinion here that this raid was absurd, and so is California law. How dare the government try and tell us what is healthy, when they created the joke that is known as the food pyramid. And whether or not you think raw milk is unsafe, what right do they have to regulate what I choose to drink. It's not even a drug!
.
They are not regulating what you can eat or drink; they are regulating what can be sold. It's the FDA's responsibility to make sure dangerous food materials aren't put on the market. If the science says these foods are dangerous then they aren't going to allow it to be sold. It is good policy.
Also, its kind of stupid to sell illegal food merchandise. What are you going to do when it harms someone? As a matter of law, you sold illegal food and you are responsible for any harm that comes from it whether you are negligent or not. Maybe it is better that the government shut them down before they harmed some litigious fool.
There's no science that would ever tell you fresh milk is bad for you.
Only reason non treated milk is regulated in some countries is because it isn't retard proof. As in if you choose to buy that sort of milk it will spoil and get your ass sick in a couple of days, if you plan on drinking it and beeing healthier then the guy drinking crap from a carton you either get drinking the same day you get it out of the cow you either boil it for an hour at which point any bacteria dies and it's going to last you maybe a week or so.
Considering the amount of time it lasts is variable this is a pretty hard thing to sell legaly since you can't put an expiration date on it for example. And that makes that guy a criminal => raid time. At any rate nobody will ever die of drinkin a lil bad milk and it's certainly a really good product if you handle it right.
That beeing said the police just did their job maybe with a little too much passion, the legislation is idd retarded but that's just because most people are too and in the US they seem to love to sue.
Ah the whole "Organic food is awesome" and "Conventional food is super bad" discussion. Considering that in the past 50 years, where people have been mainly eating conventional food, the average life span and generall health increased, just shows how unhealthy those conventional foods are.
How dare you point this out, conventional food is dane-jerrr-us!
A lack of a "definitive study" doesn't mean it's unreasonable to assume they are more healthy. I'm not even sure I trust your assertion that such studies don't exist.
Yes in fact in the absence of evidence it is unreasonable to assume anything.
I don't care what you trust or don't trust, your post pretty much shows you wouldn't change your mind for anything on this issue.
Anyway, that meat from animals feeding on grass contains a lot more omega 3 fatty acids and milk from grass fed cows also contains more omega 3's, so we *should* assume they are more healthy. (Yes there are studies, no I won't search for you. They are easy enough to find)
"I'm not even sure I trust" blah blah blah. By the way:
EPT
