I had an epiphany when I was 13, it resulted in a near death experience.
As humans on Earth, we are part of the all-entailing, infinite universe. Our solar system is made up of 8 planets, and our star, the Sun. The Sun is roughly 109 Earths accross, and can fit more than 220,000 Earths inside of it. Our Galaxy is made up of an estimated 400 Billion Stars, each with its own solar system just like ours. It has been estimated that there are more than 500 billion Galaxies, each with its own set of Stars. If you held up a grain of sand, the patch of sky it covers contains more than 10,000 galaxies alone. Relative to the universe, how big are you?
The Universe is 13.75 billion years old. Our Solar System, Earth included, formed 4.6 billion years ago. The first apes appeared 35 million years ago, the first apelike men appeared 10 million years ago. Man has been on Earth for only 300,000 years. The current world average for life expectancy is:
67.2 years, or 24,545 days, or 589,080 hours, or 35,344,800 minutes or 2,120,688,000 seconds
Your life span in relation to the universe is the equivilent of a Human blink. Human life on Earth itself in relation to the Universe equivalent to less than an hour. Relative to the universe, how old are you?
We are all going to die. Whether its tomorrow or 50 years from now, we're all terminal. In the end nothing matters. It doesn't matter if you kill 6 million Jews or you are the epitome of Altruism. It doesn't matter if you censored science on a religious basis, or sponsored it with theory and law. All the suffering in the world, all the joy in the world means nothing. It doesn't matter if you raised a family or left no relatives. A Single human or even the entire human species is insignificant. It is without purpose and will not change in the totality of existence.
When I realized this I had an uncontrollable urge to kill myself, what point was there in living? Sure it was selfish, my friends and family would grieve their loss, but what did I care, I was dead and they soon would be too. It is all meaningless
Hearing this was obviously confronting - has anyone comments or other examples of suicide inducing epiphanies they've encountered?
Psh, near-death experience. Weak shit. I had a near-life experience the other day.
Also... where-ever the bullshit in that 'epiphany' story came from, objectiveness and logic had nothing to do with it. Nobody needs a reason to be born and consequently, nobody needs a reason to live. I really don't know why people think they did.
Yes importance is measured by mass, that's why nothing any single person does will ever matter because they're not even close to being as important (large) as the massive dead rocks that orbit our sun.
I think everyone who thinks about this stuff at the end comes out with different ideas and reasons of that.
Some persons can't handle it, some persons don't care about it and keep on living and many others just try to not think about it because of how scary the thought is.
As of me, I actually don't find it that incredible or scary... I think that searching a reason behind everything is not the correct way, there are simply things we cannot explain and that we should simply accept... because things are, and so are we.
depends on your definition of "matter". "it doesnt matter" - to you? to your friends? to your parents?
if shit doesnt matter to you then realise that the secret of contentment is exploring and finding what does matter to you.
the emotional nature of humankind is that , even with the knowlege of futility, we are able to find contentment and things that matter to us and make life worth living.
friend needs to start trying to achieve and through this will learn some "self respect"
(of course everyone goes through emotional phases, "lows" - as much as we are able to go through emotional "highs". you need to work at it though, "not sucking" and self respect requires some degree of effort!)
I was on the verge of committing suicide a few years ago. I was already depressed and the notion that we have no free will was driving me towards the edge. But thinking about it led to some more unanswered questions, so thankfully i didnt go trough with it.
Your friend has made a tremendous amount of baseless assumptions.
Feeling insignificant when facing the vastness of the universe is understandable but at the same time, it comes from flaws in logic, from assumptions, generalizations and dividing reality, pulling parts of it and putting them inside boxes of the mind.
You don`t know what you are as an individuated conciousness. If you think you know then you probably don`t have a fucking clue about the depth and breadth of the conciousness and the scope of our ignorance.
The layers of knowledge, both in case of the universe and the inner world of the human conciousness, are nearly infinite.
No, even a belief that you as an individual are unable to make a change that would be significant in the face of the very infinity of the universe is baseless. There are hundrends, if not billions of possible arguments and explantations that would challenge or even discard this presumption, and certainly a few ones that could be articulated in a common language.
People in general and many of the scientists do not like to see their theories, observations or insights as incomplete or lacking in some way.
However, those sincere about science realize the scope of humanity`s ignorance. They are all about truth and self-honesty. Really, we know nearly fucking nothing in relation to the scope of reality.
Just because your friend doesn't see the point in living, doesn't mean that nothing matters.
You can still have a good time, and endeavor to make the lives of those around you as pleasant as possible.
His comment about the Holocaust should tell you everything you need to know about your "friend", what he thinks about himself, and what he thinks about you.
You only get a short time, don't spend it thinking about how futile it is. It's not.
Actually the inability to reconcile the point of life with how it affects the universe/the world is a pretty common thing in depressed people. Flawed logic or not, it's a clear indicator.
On June 22 2011 22:41 lozarian wrote: Actually the inability to reconcile the point of life with how it affects the universe/the world is a pretty common thing in depressed people. Flawed logic or not, it's a clear indicator.
I agree that depression and solipsism seem go hand in hand.
life is a series of decisions to be made, emotions to feel, and experiences to go through. I had that same epiphany at the same age. I think a lot of people do, that moment where you really realize your physical place and role in the universe. You go from anything, anywhere everywhere to here on earth for a fleeting moment, my mind literally shot out of my head and expanded so fast I couldn't deal with it but I knew I was at the center and I was so little. during life you have to jump off a bunch of cliffs down into water where there might be rocks or it might not be deep enough, this is just another cliff.
Obviously my friend is still alive, but it was interesting to see these few reactions, some were empathetic, the majority were critical so far. It was intriguing to see his logic though, obviously lacking the fundamental "its not where you're going, but how you get there that matters" aspect of it.
At times I do think that if I were to die, people would mourn my death then would just go on living like nothing ever happened. There's that feeling of insignificance and the drive to make the decision look logical. (I don't think of actually doing it, its not in me)
I like to philosophize about random things, so I understand his point. However suicide is not just stupid (hence illogical) its also not worth it.
That's just bad logic (ie. "nothing really matters hence I need to suicide myself"; this is as valid of an argument as "nothing really matters hence I'm gonna go out, pickup a couple of girls and have a sweet sweet threesome" or "nothing really matters hence I'm gonna go out and get some ice cream, since I'm only thirteen"; and in addition to bad logic, the other two actually sound fun).
If nothing really matters, why not play Starcraft2 now, eat something good tasting later, go out with friends tonight, maybe find a girl, have some sweet love, then a good night sleep. Then wake up and repeat. It may not really matter but sure sounds more fun than dieing today. If it doesn't matter, you might as well die of old age or in a car accident or whatever; cause obviously there's no reason to die right now or today or really soon - because it actually doesn't matter when you die.
Sure, you have to work tomorrow or have other tasks that are not that fun. But it actually doesn't matter since they're soon over and back to having fun.
There is already a well known and recognized book who gives a scientifical approach to suicide called Suicide from Emile Durkheim : And it has nothing to do with epiphany or some deep shit like that... lol
On June 22 2011 22:49 whiteguycash wrote: And thus nihilism was born
I laughed at what you wrote :D
Um yea... I had those moments when I was a kid trying to fall asleep to the clock ticking... I would think about all kinds of things, like Why are we alive? What if time stops ticking for me... do I just cease to exist when I die? Meaning of the universe?. THankfully God has rescued me from a lot of mishaps and provide all the answers which plagued me as a child. Jesus says "Come" to all of you
This is nothing new. It's called existential nihilism. It's what happened when people started studying science instead of believing they were special children of some creator god.
This is thread is more pointless than life. Which to you says something. Whether we go to heaven or don't exist when we die, who cares how insignificant the world is? Enjoy the life you have, be proud of what you have done while you still have the presence to appreciate it.
There's also the element that quite a lot of someone's life is driven towards a goal.
when you're young you're told you need to work hard at school, to get good grades, to get into a good secondary, to get good GCSEs, to get good A levels, to get to a good university, to get a good job and a good life etc.etc.
If you've been told this string of things to do, and that's all you understand, realising its futility is essentially cutting off all meaning of life. That quite quickly extends to "all action is pointless, inaction may as well happen instead" - and the ultimate inaction is death.
Obvioiusly that's just because doing nothing is easier than going and having a lot of fun, but depression is, well, depressing. You don't see a lot of motivated, highly active depressives for a reason.
It's not that hard to a jump from "everything I've done so far is pointless, and everything I will ever do is equally so" to "fuck it, I may as well not exist any more, since if that's where I'm heading anyway and this feels like shit, I may as well speed up the process"
On June 22 2011 22:11 Darkalbino wrote: Hearing this was obviously confronting - has anyone comments or other examples of suicide inducing epiphanies they've encountered?
No. But Richard Dawkins made a good argument once (reciting from memory.)
We, who are destined to die, are the lucky ones. Because we lived. Most are never born.
I was gobsmacked by the philosophical ramblings of this 13 year old. I really truly believe him to be the next Nietzsche. No, really! Please encourage him to write more of these semi-coherent platitudes so I can bask in his glorious epiphanies... and then go kill myself for being so absolutely insignificant.
PS. And for the love of basilisks everywhere, please change the title of this thread as this has nothing to do with literature whatsoever.
On June 22 2011 22:49 whiteguycash wrote: And thus nihilism was born
I laughed at what you wrote :D
Um yea... I had those moments when I was a kid trying to fall asleep to the clock ticking... I would think about all kinds of things, like Why are we alive? What if time stops ticking for me... do I just cease to exist when I die? Meaning of the universe?. THankfully God has rescued me from a lot of mishaps and provide all the answers which plagued me as a child. Jesus says "Come" to all of you
This is something I think most (non-religious) people figure out at one point or other during adolescence. It either kills you or makes you stronger. I'm still alive, and I take great comfort in the fact that nothing I do really matters. It helps me relax, and not take everything so seriously.
You think the inventor of anything that is used globally thinks his life was too short and meaningless? Record setting athletes that are now immortal thanks to video capture? Presidents of countries that will live in honor or infamy?
no, i just admire the greatness of the universe, and even though you say we r nothing, we are amazing beings, the sole amazing fact that counciosness has arisen from dead matter has to be enough to counter those suicide thougths i think
On June 22 2011 23:15 Carras wrote: no, i just admire the greatness of the universe, and even though you say we r nothing, we are amazing beings, the sole amazing fact that counciosness has arisen from dead matter has to be enough to counter those suicide thougths i think
Yeah we are so amazing that in 10000 years we have destroyed ourselfs, our planet and all 'counciousness arisen from dead matter' and in the end it was meaningless and nothing at all.
On June 22 2011 22:19 Megaliskuu wrote: Sounds like a kid trying to be "deep"
Ya, except that it makes sense.
Only on a universal scale. If look at it from a personal scale you'll probably get why suicide isn't the greatest idea.
Edit: and even on a universal scale, just because your actions will have no meaning in the grand scheme of things does that mean that your actions are meaningless?
It's like this: 1) Either you are an atheist, and believes pretty much that this is it. 2) Or you are religious, and should live according to your religion to reap the benefits in the afterlife. 3) Or you aren't sure, and really ought to figure out what you believe, and not burn too many bridges until you do.
As an atheist, I believe this is it. This is the life I live, and when it's done, there's nothing more. No continued existence, nothing more.
That everything is meaningless considering the big picture, doesn't mean you should consider your actions in the big picture.
You should live for yourself and those around you. That is, if you care about them. I like Heinleins definition of love - you love someone when their happiness is essential to your own.
I don't think suicide is inherently wrong. Nor do I think the death penalty is. It should be every persons right to chose whether or not they find their own life worth living. If they don't, I think they should have the right to end it. But that ought to be based on whether or not continuing to live will give you more pleasure than pain, because I believe that when life ends, there's nothing more for you, and it stops there. If you are a devout christian, who believe that suicide leads you to hell, it doesn't make any sense to kill yourself ... your viewpoint on religion, should influence how you feel about suicide I feel.
Since this life is all you get, you should, imho, have a strong incentive to make the most of it. For yourself. Not like you lived in the past and can change that, and not like you will be alive in the future to see what will happen then. Excepting some miraculous medical breakthrough in the near future, and it becoming available to you.
Taking care of yourself, and those you care about, should be the main consideration of most peoples life. Do whatever the %¤# you want, since nothing matter - sure. But will hurting someone, going to jail, be in prison for decades, lead you to have a more enjoyable experience than finding someone to love and live with them? That's up to you to answer of course ...
Even if you would spent the rest of your life in a basement playing games browsing the net and never go out because you are scared of other people, given the alternative being absolutely nothing, I don't see it as obvious that that life isn't worth living till the end. It's all you are going to get anyway. From my viewpoint.
Why should you care that your life doesn't matter? I don't believe anyones life matter. Don't see me going around killing them either. It's just not in my best interest to do - since I don't believe being in prison is likely to lead me to more happiness than ... well, not going to jail.
tl;dr: The fallacy in the original post is implying that life being meaningless means it's not worth living. Not true.
On June 22 2011 23:15 Carras wrote: no, i just admire the greatness of the universe, and even though you say we r nothing, we are amazing beings, the sole amazing fact that counciosness has arisen from dead matter has to be enough to counter those suicide thougths i think
Yeah we are so amazing that in 10000 years we have destroyed ourselfs, our planet and all 'counciousness arisen from dead matter' and in the end it was meaningless and nothing at all.
Yes all our advancements in social justice and science are nothing.
There are always two sides to any story, you can't even say that there's a bad side of a story or a good side, there are just multiple ways of looking at a story.
I think we all take our lives for granted now a days, we don't look at how things actually were not that great back in the day. Racism, discrimination and sexism were rampant and just a part of everyday life where in these days people try to teach and live with tolerance and understanding.
Of course there will always be bad things that happen but that's life. No one complains when their life is blessed, so you shouldn't when things go sour.
The OP really reminds me of something I quickly wrote up a while ago. I'm not here to debate this so please don't call me out on the last sentence. Due to the fact that existence in itself is subjective and up for interpretation.
The average life span of an American is 78.11 years. That’s only a total of 2, 464, 911, 489.86 seconds. The universe is approximately 13, 750, 000, 000 years old. You will live for 0.000000568% of the universe’s current age. The universe may last anywhere from 10 trillion years to a googolplex. There is approximately 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy. If you could travel to another star instantaneously from birth to death. Only spending 1 second exploring each star. You would only see 0.5-1.0% of the total stars in our galaxy before dying of old age. There is approximately 100-200 billion galaxies in the known universe. Each galaxy can contain hundreds of billions of stars. There is over 100 sextillion stars in our universe. Most stars have the potential to have their own system of planets. Each exoplanet within that system holds a chance of harbouring life. Your time in the universe is completely insignificant and so is your existence.
In the grand scale of things I think life is completely pointless, but on a personal scale it's the only thing that matters.
I agree with the epiphany up to the final conclusion. As humans, we are small, we are insignificant, and we are the product of (if you're a non-creationist anyways) random chance. We should revel in that. We should be happy and thankful that out of all the multitudes of possibilities, we were able to experience this small and blessed portion of the realm of existence that is Earth and life. Earth and humankind is not perfect. Far from it;there are aspects of humanity that are terrible and sick beyond imagine. But on the whole, it is still incredible that things are the way they are.
Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a poker player and I love when Lady Luck is on my side But those epiphanies only make me feel grateful for existence, not cynical. Other things make me cynical. Like the government. Grrrrr.
On June 22 2011 23:38 Krohm wrote: The OP really reminds me of something I quickly wrote up a while ago. I'm not here to debate this so please don't call me out on the last sentence. Due to the fact that existence in itself is subjective and up for interpretation.
The average life span of an American is 78.11 years. That’s only a total of 2, 464, 911, 489.86 seconds. The universe is approximately 13, 750, 000, 000 years old. You will live for 0.000000568% of the universe’s current age. The universe may last anywhere from 10 trillion years to a googolplex. There is approximately 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy. If you could travel to another star instantaneously from birth to death. Only spending 1 second exploring each star. You would only see 0.5-1.0% of the total stars in our galaxy before dying of old age. There is approximately 100-200 billion galaxies in the known universe. Each galaxy can contain hundreds of billions of stars. There is over 100 sextillion stars in our universe. Most stars have the potential to have their own system of planets. Each exoplanet within that system holds a chance of harbouring life. Your time in the universe is completely insignificant and so is your existence.
In the grand scale of things I think life is completely pointless, but on a personal scale it's the only thing that matters.
Your friend fears the vastness of the world, huh. I on the other hand am exhilarated that there is a near limitless amount of knowledge and variety that sparks my interest and intrigue.
What even is 'objective' meaning in life? How can you possibly have an objective meaning? Like, even if after you die some guy crafts entire galaxies in your honor, enumerating all of the fucking awesome things that you've done in your life time, so that all consciousnesses that are and ever will be can look into the skies and see your greatness, that's still not an objective meaning. You find your own meaning. Unless you're religious I guess, but let's not get into that.
I see things the complete opposite... if my time is so short and small compared to the big picture, I'm sure as hell going to make the most of it, since you are only alive once (for that short amount of time, and will be dead for the rest of infinite amount of eternity)
and the last couple sentences pretty much sum up my opinion on suicide. There are people that love and care about you, so stop being so fucking emo and deal with your shit.
learned that a long time ago in school, it´s a kind of philosophy called nihilism. Since then i´m trying to only do what makes me happy and what i think is cool
Edit: u might wanna read a little bit from Nietzsche or Heidegger if u want to dig deeper on that topic.
To begin Id like to point out how it is only humans that feel the need to see things under the basis of time and space, knowing things within these dimensions are the basis of human reasoning. We are always aware of the passage of time and we can only perceive things as they move in our surroundings. Time dictates that everything will be destroyed eventually while space puts this into practice and makes us aware of the present and how it is in constant flux, why is it in flux? because of time. Memories are also built upon the basis that such things happened in the past, therefore the very nature of our perception leads us to believe that space(or the present state of things) dictates the present-
(think of it like this, if Im wearing red glasses all the time, I am still seeing the world but I am operating on the basis that the world around me is red therefore colours like blue or green cannot exist within my perception, similarly we may see the world under the basis that it does in fact exist as a perpetual product of space and time and therefore we can perceive it as nothing else)
-while the concept of time allows us to put our memories in context and perceive the potential existence or the inevitable occurrence of a future. Also typically the symptoms of what we consider madness is a distortion of what we are perceiving in space or even the inability to interpret memory as past. Which basically means that we as humans find non time/space related perceptions to be unnatural and therefore mad. The reason Im going through all this is to establish that perceptions and organizations of knowledge through time and space are inherently human qualities. This is the premise of my argument so if you don't agree with that then I am wrong in your eyes.
Anyways, lets look at the qualities of space and time, if our perceptions of them are actually true then we may very well be living one moment and seemingly nothing in the next, if the universe is actually just a persistent flux then our brief moments of awareness(I am assuming that you don't want me to suggest that a 100000 year old dead pile of ash is still you and we are in fact our awareness and nothing more) really do mean nothing. Yet what if we perceived the flow of things differently? In a book called Slaughter house five( Im sure a lot of you guy have read it if not its an awesome book) This is exactly the case in regards to an alien species called trafalmadorians, they see things simultaneously, when they look at you they see a baby a man and an old coot all at once because they perceive all moments at the same time. If this were the case then from their perspective no moment ever dies and you would live on forever in countless instances while at the same time being dead in countless instances.
If there perception is true you are apart of an ever present universe, to take you out of that universe would be unnatural and would fundamentally change it. You are important to and whose to say our shallow perception of time and space is at all better than theirs? Im not suggesting that their perception is necessarily truth I am only pointing out that our way of seeing things is very small and leads us to believe that we are nothing. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that our view of the universe is the end all be al so don't kill yourself just yet when so much of what we think is true is uncertain.
On June 22 2011 23:16 Klaus1986 wrote: Ah, what it must feel like to be a teenager again and feel like one knows everything...
Oh man, I can't put it any more eloquently than this. This thread is one of those strange curiosities where the temperance of age can siphon away what seems like an epiphany only years earlier.
I had a similar one to the OPs story when I was 8 after confronting the nature of the universe and how small and alone everything we are will ever be.
Take something like this and put your entire life towards achieving a goal to prevent the inevitable demise of your insignificant existence. Many men have found happiness searching for ways to stretch their lives as long as possible or find meaning in meaningless things. I feel dwelling on thoughts such as those are borderline depression. You're here, this is the time you have been given, and it's up to you to use it to the full extent or not. Many people "almost die" every day, and you're no different. You are the one and only person who can make changes that will effect the rest of your life. My mom passed a few years back when I was 15, life is what you make of it. You are dealt a hand and it's up to you how you play it. You can fold before the river or you can play your hand. Sure, the universe is gigantic and unknown, so is the rest of your life, attempted suicide doesn't change that reality, nor does a near death experience.
If life is truly useless, why not enjoy it as much as you can ? also, while enjoying it as much as I can I choose to abide by the rules, just because I don't enjoy getting locked up for the little time I have and I don't enjoy hurting other people.
On June 22 2011 22:49 whiteguycash wrote: And thus nihilism was born
I laughed at what you wrote :D
Um yea... I had those moments when I was a kid trying to fall asleep to the clock ticking... I would think about all kinds of things, like Why are we alive? What if time stops ticking for me... do I just cease to exist when I die? Meaning of the universe?. THankfully God has rescued me from a lot of mishaps and provide all the answers which plagued me as a child. Jesus says "Come" to all of you
While I dont think this kid should kill himself, I dont think his answer is to be found in lying to himself and believing in magic.
Just because theirs no point to living, doesn't mean there is a point to dying.
You had an uncontrollable urge to kill yourself? lol man. Even if its all meaningless, I like life. It suits me
On June 23 2011 00:31 sulliwan wrote: How can anyone contemplate the vastness and the complexity of the universe and be so egotistical as to only consider how he looks compared to it?
But I'm not really sure about this one guys, chaos theory states that my every minute action *could* be causing catastrophic events on the other side of the universe, so cheer up, there's a remote chance that by making this thread you're causing an intergalactic war 10 billion years from now, and that's way more bad ass than suicide.
Looking at life the way he did is actually similar to Carl Sagan's speech on Earth as being a "pale blue dot" in a vast galaxy & universe (you can find it on youtube). Although what Carl seemed to get out of it was that because of Earth's smallness we should be humbled by our problems, and realize we're all in it together on this small planet as its the only home we have.
He's right in one sense (that its our only home), but wrong in another (being humbled?), and so is your friend. It doesn't really matter how large the universe is relative to us, or how large earth is relative to the lands people fight over or the scope of world issues to your personal problems. I always thought it was kind of irrational to say that just because there are bigger problems, or larger "things" out there, that your issues don't matter. I can't think of any logical reasoning that would explain how, just because we occupy a fraction of a fraction of our galaxy and universe that therefore our problems don't matter.
Its strange to try to anthropomorphize the universe in this way...and say well in some part of the universe galaxies are colliding, and you're complaining about your job? Get real! Its just so silly..you have to have a realistic sense of proportion, and acknowledge *your* importance and size to the issues you face, not pretend that they don't exist because to the universe its so small. Its nonsense
The hardest thing that I tried to understand in life is that sometimes it's not about the greater good or saving thousands. Sometimes it's about the individual. I laughed when I heard this, I always thought that if you were given the option to save the person you love, or thousands of people, the answer would be the mass of people. Sometimes it's not, though. I don't think I'm making any sense and can't tell where this is going, but sometimes that friend/family member is more important than the mass of people to you.
If life is a game, then why refuse to play? Life includes not only happiness, but also pain. Refusing to play includes nothing. You will not be happy. You will not feel pain. Pain and happiness go hand in hand.
Think about the world 100 years from now. will Mcdonald's still be around? Coke? IBM? Nike? Google? Apple? (ibm celebrated its 100th birthday last week)
Take it one step further. Can you imagine an archaeologist in 1000 years, digging in the sand and finding these huge golden arches? What can this be, he asks. Must be some shrine to some unknown god. Upon further examination, he concludes that there is perhaps a slight resemblance to the ancient ying yang symbol.
I was talking with a friend about the meaning of life. He told me about the Eqyptians. Some 5000 years ago, there was some guy who was the head man for the pyramids. Every morning, he'd get up, kiss the wife and kids goodbye, climb into his chariot and go off to work. He was a real important guy in his time. Men respected him. Women adored him. Princes held him in great respect. On his way home, he'd often stop at the market to pick of bread and eggs for breakfast the next morning. Sometimes he might stop off at the Egyptian equivalent of KFC to pick up dinner. When he'd pull up to the house, the dog would bark, the kids would run to the door and shout, "Daddy's home!" (in Egyptian) and so it was.
Well one day that guy died. Today, he is not remembered. For all we know he might be nothing but a figment of my friend's imagination. But, let's say he was real. Today - he is forgotten. Just like you and I will be forgotten. Same thing with some of the companies mentioned earlier.
The lesson? Live life like it means something. Enjoy it to the fullest. Don't take any crap from anyone - life's too short. Don't worry about anything. Hug the people you love. Go ahead and eat the skin off the damned chicken. Don't be afraid to have another piece of that cherry pie. Enjoy yourself. Live, love, laugh.
On June 22 2011 22:47 Darkalbino wrote: Obviously my friend is still alive, but it was interesting to see these few reactions, some were empathetic, the majority were critical so far. It was intriguing to see his logic though, obviously lacking the fundamental "its not where you're going, but how you get there that matters" aspect of it.
No one tries to kill themselves saying or thinking, "I can have an impact in this huge universe"... Not a new philosophy at all and I am surprised there are people out there who can not figure out this way of thought related to suicide.
On June 23 2011 01:47 tiffany wrote: The lesson? Live life like it means something. Enjoy it to the fullest. Don't take any crap from anyone - life's too short. Don't worry about anything. Hug the people you love. Go ahead and eat the skin off the damned chicken. Don't be afraid to have another piece of that cherry pie. Enjoy yourself. Live, love, laugh.
Yes, because dying of obesity when you're 45 is the best way of living life to the fullest!
The views represented in the OP are as perfectly logical as they are perfectly herectical. Hedonism is no refuge for the serious nihilist, especially if he has any pretensions to pensive objectivity. When he says that everything is meaningless, he does not mean that everything is meaningless. He means that everything else is meaningless in comparison to that which alone is meaningful. In this case, he has an imaginary entity called the universe which he only vaguely understands. As the only thing which exists in, and acts upon all other things, it alone is worthy of solemn contemplation. You see, this man is a religious hermit, or would be, if materialism were a religion, and it is his inability to wax larger and longer in it which kills him.
Essentially i've grown comfortable with the fact we're all obsolete and we're just a bunch of chemical reactions mostly composed of oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen. But then just think that out of that huge immenseness you described, we are somehow sentient, and can realise it, and how beautiful it is we can actually think.
Life is pointless, so what, by the same logic the entire universe is pointless. Just squeese as many endorphins as you can out of life while you still are alive, and then you can go back to being part of a planet for several hundred million billion years.
Personally, I feel that our lives are, metaphorically speaking, a ride between our life and death, so we might as well enjoy the ride, even if it's meaningless. Also, I remember reading a picture that said something along the lines of "You were born instead of someone who would have surpassed Einstein or someone who is more of musical genius than Beethoven, so make the most of your life." The combination of those two things is why I find meaning in life.
On June 23 2011 01:47 tiffany wrote: here's a better way to look at things
Think about the world 100 years from now. will Mcdonald's still be around? Coke? IBM? Nike? Google? Apple? (ibm celebrated its 100th birthday last week)
Take it one step further. Can you imagine an archaeologist in 1000 years, digging in the sand and finding these huge golden arches? What can this be, he asks. Must be some shrine to some unknown god. Upon further examination, he concludes that there is perhaps a slight resemblance to the ancient ying yang symbol.
I was talking with a friend about the meaning of life. He told me about the Eqyptians. Some 5000 years ago, there was some guy who was the head man for the pyramids. Every morning, he'd get up, kiss the wife and kids goodbye, climb into his chariot and go off to work. He was a real important guy in his time. Men respected him. Women adored him. Princes held him in great respect. On his way home, he'd often stop at the market to pick of bread and eggs for breakfast the next morning. Sometimes he might stop off at the Egyptian equivalent of KFC to pick up dinner. When he'd pull up to the house, the dog would bark, the kids would run to the door and shout, "Daddy's home!" (in Egyptian) and so it was.
Well one day that guy died. Today, he is not remembered. For all we know he might be nothing but a figment of my friend's imagination. But, let's say he was real. Today - he is forgotten. Just like you and I will be forgotten. Same thing with some of the companies mentioned earlier.
The lesson? Live life like it means something. Enjoy it to the fullest. Don't take any crap from anyone - life's too short. Don't worry about anything. Hug the people you love. Go ahead and eat the skin off the damned chicken. Don't be afraid to have another piece of that cherry pie. Enjoy yourself. Live, love, laugh.
Just to turn the whole "human life is 0.0000000000001% of the universe therefore we don't matter" angle on its head:
We may be tiny in reference to the universe, which exists on a humongous scale in terms of time, space, and mass, but that's not OUR reference point, we can't perceive or even understand things on the scale of "the entire universe." We can understand some stats about it, we can perceive aspects of it, rules, laws of physics etc., but the true scale of it is beyond any individual human mind. You can say "oh there are x billion stars and we are nothing," but do you really understand whatever number you choose to cite, can you truly comprehend that? Chances are that you can't, because your mind isn't built for it, so that shit doesn't matter and has absolutely no impact on your life.
The things we do probably don't matter for the sake of the Universe, but you're not the Universe, or God, or anything else other than a human, and the things you do matter on a human scale. To the Universe we're nothing, but we are much more than that to each other. You exist in the Universe first and foremost, but we exist on Earth and next to other humans, and interact with them in a much more intimate fashion than we do with the incomprehensible infinity of the Universe. The time we each have as individuals is limited, it's not infinite, and we can't get it back, and therefore valuable. Cherish your life.
Tl;dr: the Universe is too big for you to give a shit about, start thinking about your life on Earth, where things matter.
You don't need the impact of your life to affect the cosmos or the universe on a greater scale in order to rationalize living. That is silly. Pretty much, we know this is it, this is all there is as far as our experience goes, and something is better than nothing.
Anyone who has that epiphany and wants to kill themselves has totally the wrong perspective. That idea makes me happy to be alive. Unless you have serious ego problems, your insignificance on a universal scale shouldn't affect you.
Had this shit a few months ago where I was feeling quite depressed about everything and how nothing mattered. Finally got rid of it by looking at it from another angle and accepting the facts but now I have this annoying 3rd person perspective of "and this is how far the human race has come" every time I see something I think an Alien or another being would find primitive.
In terms of how long the universe has been around, then yes humanity is like a blink. But if we start killing ourselves, that's all we'll ever be. Just a blink. Imagine if we don't kill ourselves, if we strive to be the best we can be. One day in the future we may be more than just a blink. We could be a presence in the universe unlike anything we've ever dreamed of before. Humanity being a 'blink' is the past. The future should be regarded as a staring contest.
To contemplate the vastness of space-time and despair is to neglect the beauty of living within the space of a blinking eye. That sense of urgency is what has brought us so far in a couple measly human lifetimes.
I think your friend's perspective is valid, but the question is how does it serve him. If it bogs him down, that's fine, he'll get over it, it's in the human psyche to always move in a direction of what he defines to be less painful and more joyful. I think that everyone should assign their own meaning to things. Universe and existence is pointless and at the same time meaningful, just choose the perspective you prefer, you will not find THE truth anyway... The core cause of every depression is the idea of self-devaluation. While it is true that from the scientific point of view all beings are just sacks of meat, someone in this thread mentioned consciousness. It may be that there is some not-so-much physical part of ourselves...or not. It matters little...enjoy the mystery of life.
there is nonliving matter all around you, and you are matter which happens to be aware. chose to do what you want with it. chose to be apart of the emotional collective that can be astonishingly great or devastatingly horrible, but at least we have a better perspective of the world than a rock, or other animals on this planet. if you want to isolate yourself and be reclusive, you might as well be dead. its all up to you.
and also: smoke some weed alone and look inside yourself, perhaps you will become grateful of how miraculous life is.
yea i think there should be an estimate for the possibility of life on in a star system. it might be very low! if there was only a sextillionth chance of being in a star system with life, then the human race is one of only tens of life forms out there in the whole universe - i'd imagine we have enough in the intelligence area to understand and predict what these other life forms do too.
You are given a few years of something totally unique, life. It is insanely unlikely that you would have this opportunity. Any small change from now and a couple of billions of years back and you would probalby not have been reading this or even been alive. So enjoy your blink and try to have as much fun as possible.
I find a problem with his logic. If he feels that he can't impress the UNIVERSE (which is massive and has seen billions of years of evolution) then he feels that he has no point in existing? At the very least he should try to do something spectacular so that he thinks that me means something in the universe (of course, excluding suicides. That happens all the time, wouldn't change anything for the better).
When I realized this I had an uncontrollable urge to kill myself, what point was there in living?
Dude, you/he is just stating the obvious.
Everyone (slightly above intelligent person with a common sense) knows that you'r and everyones life means pretty much nothing to anyone besides ourselves, why do you think religion exists ? to counter these feelings of nothingness, people cant coap with the fact that they mean nothing so they lie to themselves that theres a purpose in this world and a greater good will come (god) etc.etc.etc.
But, to answer that question "what is the point of living"
Thats for you/him to decide, its your life and just because you think you wont see the golden gates when you die you shouldnt feel like life is pointless, wether religion is true or not i see no point in 'wasting' my life on a suicide (well, probably because my life is pretty decent)
Like bender from futurama said in the end of some episode... "Life is what you make of it" and thats true, its your life and you can do whatever you want these 50 or 100 years youre alive. Thus i would suggest you or your friend to stop worrying about some point or goal in life and just go with his own, smoke weed, play sc2, play sports or whatever you enjoy, because its probably more fun than what happens when you die.
I personally belive that being dead is the same as before we were born, and i dont really recall fun times there ! so ill just make the most of this life i have atm.
Edit: i didnt really read any replys before i posted and i noticed now that i kinda just re-wrote the 4chan post, derp. But yeah, its the best logic i guess in this matter,.
lol I always said this half as a joke, but life is kinda like a mmorpg. it doesnt really have any meaning or reason in the "real" world, but it doesnt mean you cant have fun doing w/e you want. whether it be just playing the economy, PvEing or PvPing or just sitting around talking with guildmates/randoms. the whole point is its contructed to have no meaning other than a place to have fun.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause: there's the respect That makes calamity of so long life; For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely, The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office and the spurns That patient merit of the unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscover'd country from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all; And thus the native hue of resolution Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought, And enterprises of great pith and moment With this regard their currents turn awry, And lose the name of action.--Soft you now! The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons Be all my sins remember'd.
This is our only chance to live, so why waste it. That's why people like beggars hold onto life so dearly, despite their burdensome lot. Each and every person can only experience life through their own unique viewpoint, such that their singular perspective becomes the entirety of the universe for themselves. The diminutive scale of a human life compared to the cosmos is irrelevant, then, because the only universe anyone will ever know is the one in which they presently reside, and in their minds, their own privileged little universes outweigh anything which lies external to themselves.
EPT![[image loading]](http://gabrielhummel.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/suicide-world-is-your-oyster.png)
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But those epiphanies only make me feel grateful for existence, not cynical. Other things make me cynical. Like the government. Grrrrr.
