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Keep it civil guys.
Alright I am sick of warning people: Trolling, flame baiting, and derailing will result in insta bans.
The same goes for conspiracy theorists and stupidity generally.
Confirmation was as follows
- On-site DNA test which came back as 99% positive.
- photos of face sent to CIA and confirmed with photo analysis
- confirmed by 20 year old wife who live in pakistan.
This thread is specifically dedicated to the details surrounding the raid/his death. |
On May 03 2011 00:42 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 19:44 Imres wrote:On May 02 2011 19:41 partisan wrote:On May 02 2011 19:38 VicTimEyes wrote:On May 02 2011 19:35 partisan wrote:On May 02 2011 19:32 VicTimEyes wrote:On May 02 2011 19:30 partisan wrote:On May 02 2011 19:27 blomsterjohn wrote:On May 02 2011 19:23 partisan wrote:On May 02 2011 19:21 Zerokaiser wrote:
[quote]
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
We have rights to protect our fellow human beings from being subject to mistreatment, and to give everybody the ability to live their lives freely. Osama Bin Laden had those rights like anybody else. When you make the conscious choice to violate those rights and take away the lives of people, you are no longer free and equal with mankind. That's my personal opinion. Well said. Bin Laden had his until he infringed on the rights of others by eliminating their ability to enjoy those rights. A price must be paid Why do I feel like this is the same'ish as "I believe in free speech, except for some stuff" Doesn't feel good either. There are limits to free speech, and they are extreme cases. Any idea taken to an absolute extreme can be troublesome. The idea that a person can murder thousands and not be brought to justice is confounding. He was intent on fighting to the very last bullet and he fired on the team that came to arrest him. Self defense in the course of executing a legitimate arrest is something that's not usually questioned. So why is George W. Bush still not brought to justice then? He murdered thousands of innocent civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody has ever been prosecuted accidental civilian deaths that result in war, at least as far as I'm aware. Actually it was during an invasion, which was even illegal in the case of Iraq. Technically the UN signed off on Iraq, which gave it legal cover. That being said, it was a stupid mess that I marched against for years. You'll never hear me defend the wisdom of that war but we did get approval first. France (one of the few things we can be proud of :D) vetoed the decision. That was a little shady though. France stood to lose if the Oil for Food program ended as there were allegations of bribery and abuse of the system by the Russians, Chinese, and French.
Money makes the world goes round.
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On May 02 2011 11:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
It's not Libya related. That and as others are saying late night and on a Sunday is rather unusual.
Why is late at night on a sunday unusual? I heard on the radio it was a SEAL team that brought him down? If they had word where he was and when he was vulnerable, why would it be unusual for them to bring him down the first chance they got? I'm confused
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On May 03 2011 00:40 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:38 Chrispy wrote:
Winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world while having your people parade and cheer in the streets over the death of one of their own (regardless of whether or not they support him), yeah good luck with that.
Most muslims would be very offended by this. "One of their own"? Do you know how many moderate muslims live in the world? It's like blaming some protestant family for the actions of Westboro baptist church - they are called extremists for a reason -_-. Please research before posting opinions. Actually i'm just going to delete your post because if i keep rereading it im going to hit ban.
I try to think of it in terms of how I would react if my friends mom was murdered, they caught the guy, and he was put to death. I wouldnt be running around and yelling hip hip horray. I would be relieved and happy but respectful that this marks closure for the loss of loved ones.
But yah I agree that hes is no more a muslim than any religious extremist is to their "faith".
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On May 03 2011 00:46 Stropheum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 11:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
It's not Libya related. That and as others are saying late night and on a Sunday is rather unusual. Why is late at night on a sunday unusual? I heard on the radio it was a SEAL team that brought him down? If they had word where he was and when he was vulnerable, why would it be unusual for them to bring him down the first chance they got? I'm confused
You quoted a post that was made long before anyone knew what Obama's speech was about. Sunday night is unusual for a national announcement.
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On May 03 2011 00:47 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:40 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:38 Chrispy wrote:
Winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world while having your people parade and cheer in the streets over the death of one of their own (regardless of whether or not they support him), yeah good luck with that.
Most muslims would be very offended by this. "One of their own"? Do you know how many moderate muslims live in the world? It's like blaming some protestant family for the actions of Westboro baptist church - they are called extremists for a reason -_-. Please research before posting opinions. Actually i'm just going to delete your post because if i keep rereading it im going to hit ban. I try to think of it in terms of how I would react if my friends mom was murdered, they caught the guy, and he was put to death. I wouldnt be running around and yelling hip hip horray. I would be relieved and happy but respectful that this marks closure for the loss of loved ones. But yah I agree that hes is no more a muslim than Hitler was a catholic.
Yeah wtf is up with people. I mean, yeah I'm mildly relieved that OBL is no more but I'm not going to go out in the streets chanting USA USA USA, the fuck is up with that.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:51 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:47 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2011 00:40 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:38 Chrispy wrote:
Winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world while having your people parade and cheer in the streets over the death of one of their own (regardless of whether or not they support him), yeah good luck with that.
Most muslims would be very offended by this. "One of their own"? Do you know how many moderate muslims live in the world? It's like blaming some protestant family for the actions of Westboro baptist church - they are called extremists for a reason -_-. Please research before posting opinions. Actually i'm just going to delete your post because if i keep rereading it im going to hit ban. I try to think of it in terms of how I would react if my friends mom was murdered, they caught the guy, and he was put to death. I wouldnt be running around and yelling hip hip horray. I would be relieved and happy but respectful that this marks closure for the loss of loved ones. But yah I agree that hes is no more a muslim than Hitler was a catholic. Yeah wtf is up with people. I mean, yeah I'm mildly relieved that OBL is no more but I'm not going to go out in the streets chanting USA USA USA, the fuck is up with that.
It's a bunch of excited new yorkers. I don't think anyone is saying that 250 million americans are jumping up and down....lets not type cast the entire bunch (americans, muslims etc).
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Disclaimer: I hope my post doesn't get misconstrued as trolling, I mean it as a totally serious question.
Is this actually a big deal? I mean, I understand why it's a newsworthy factoid, but why does it matter? Does it actually change anything on the world stage, or it just a small pat-yourself-on-the-back moral victory?
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On May 03 2011 00:48 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:46 Stropheum wrote:On May 02 2011 11:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
It's not Libya related. That and as others are saying late night and on a Sunday is rather unusual. Why is late at night on a sunday unusual? I heard on the radio it was a SEAL team that brought him down? If they had word where he was and when he was vulnerable, why would it be unusual for them to bring him down the first chance they got? I'm confused You quoted a post that was made long before anyone knew what Obama's speech was about. Sunday night is unusual for a national announcement.
This.
In addition the press conference was announced with roughly 30 minutes notice. Which is pretty rare in itself.
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On May 03 2011 00:53 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:51 ZeaL. wrote:On May 03 2011 00:47 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2011 00:40 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:38 Chrispy wrote:
Winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world while having your people parade and cheer in the streets over the death of one of their own (regardless of whether or not they support him), yeah good luck with that.
Most muslims would be very offended by this. "One of their own"? Do you know how many moderate muslims live in the world? It's like blaming some protestant family for the actions of Westboro baptist church - they are called extremists for a reason -_-. Please research before posting opinions. Actually i'm just going to delete your post because if i keep rereading it im going to hit ban. I try to think of it in terms of how I would react if my friends mom was murdered, they caught the guy, and he was put to death. I wouldnt be running around and yelling hip hip horray. I would be relieved and happy but respectful that this marks closure for the loss of loved ones. But yah I agree that hes is no more a muslim than Hitler was a catholic. Yeah wtf is up with people. I mean, yeah I'm mildly relieved that OBL is no more but I'm not going to go out in the streets chanting USA USA USA, the fuck is up with that. It's a bunch of excited new yorkers. I don't think anyone is saying that 250 million americans are jumping up and down....lets not type cast the entire bunch (americans, muslims etc).
From what i can tell it was those New Yorkers, who had an understandable outburst of emotion, and college kids outside the white house who live in dorms 2 minutes away. College kids will celebrate and get drunk over ANYTHING.
What other examples in all of America have their been of jubilant mass celebration?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Some interesting points
- Bush did his "Mission Accomplished" speech 8 years ago today.
- May 2 1945 - Hitler's death announced.
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On May 02 2011 23:31 whatdoido wrote:
enjoy your nuclear bomb, europe.
...thanks?
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I would just like to say thank you for the hard work of our troops overseas, they are regular guys just like you and me doing a job to support themselves and their family. Let's celebrate as a country that someone who has been the link to personal closure to many American's is now gone. American's who lost family on 9/11 can now have peace after 10 years of searching, knowing that the man who orchestrated the catastrophe of 9/11 is now gone.
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On May 03 2011 00:25 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:09 zatic wrote:On May 03 2011 00:03 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:01 zatic wrote:On May 02 2011 23:51 Thrill wrote:On May 02 2011 23:43 Kennigit wrote:
Regarding why he was buried so fast at sea.
1) Islamic law requires fast burials. (24 hours i believe someone can confirm)
2) If they kept his body on the ship to take somewhere else, as soon as that info hits the news every foreigner in pakistan/islamic world becomes immediate target for hostage taking to get the body back
3) If they bury him on soil, that site makes him more of a martyr and allows ppl/supporters to rally around it/visit etc.
Fast sea burial defuses it.
The white house/state department is debating which photos/videos to release without being too graphic (cranial exit wounds leave a bit of a mess). Well, the briefing doesn't state why a stronger effort wasn't made to capture him alive. Surely that should have been the main objective? Rubber bullet to the chest and tear gas would make more sense than two (!) lethal rounds to the head. Even if he was personally returning fire - seals are seals, they could have detonated the floor under him and brought him down without even giving him a chance to shoot himself. I just don't get it. I think we all feel a bit cheated by the way this was executed. If they really had him cornered in a compound, multiple headshots seems terribly excessive and un-seals like. Yeah I don't buy for a second that they wanted to capture him alive. I'll bet they had orders to kill. They were ordered to kill him and make no attempt to capture him....he was in a fortified compound with 8' high stone walls and armed guards. "unseal like" i'm going to lose it. Well the reasoning to kill him surely wasn't because there was a brick wall around the house and two donkeys with AKs patrolling. Compared to 25 elite forces who trained this specific raid for weeks. If they wanted to get him alive, they could have. He was killed because of the unbelievable quagmire that a capture and trial would mean. Nobody wanted this creep making statements in a fair trial. Just remember the PR catastrophe the Saddam trial was. Yeah they've been watching the location for a few months before the order was given to go in. CIA obviously went over the pros cons for weeks with super smart analysts/leaders before ordering the kill mission. Theres a task force in afghanistan that changes its identifier every few months (for secrecy: its made up of Delta, ST6, then some allies like JTF2/SAS etc) that literally flies around the pakistan/afghan mountain border, finds taliban leaders and kills them. Every single evening. People are freaking out because its the first time they've heard of something like this, but it happens constantly....Fly in, kill leader and brothers protecting him. Fly home. Theres a lot of reports of CIA ops doing scare tactics on local Taliban villages too (old school: killing the taliban leader at night then nailing signs in Pashto to town hall door warning ppl who would replace him). If you had a list of the taliban/al quada leaders that had been killed by special forces in afghanistan/pakistan in the last year, today wouldn't be that shocking to people.
Wait. Isnt this suppost to be beyond confifdential indormation? How you know this?
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The funniest thing about the announcement was the fact that it cut off Trump's TV show, and NBC never cut back to it. This coming one day after Obama verbally abused Trump at the WHPC dinner and humiliated him with his birth certificate announcement.
On May 03 2011 00:58 GG.NoRe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:25 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:09 zatic wrote:On May 03 2011 00:03 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:01 zatic wrote:On May 02 2011 23:51 Thrill wrote:On May 02 2011 23:43 Kennigit wrote:
Regarding why he was buried so fast at sea.
1) Islamic law requires fast burials. (24 hours i believe someone can confirm)
2) If they kept his body on the ship to take somewhere else, as soon as that info hits the news every foreigner in pakistan/islamic world becomes immediate target for hostage taking to get the body back
3) If they bury him on soil, that site makes him more of a martyr and allows ppl/supporters to rally around it/visit etc.
Fast sea burial defuses it.
The white house/state department is debating which photos/videos to release without being too graphic (cranial exit wounds leave a bit of a mess). Well, the briefing doesn't state why a stronger effort wasn't made to capture him alive. Surely that should have been the main objective? Rubber bullet to the chest and tear gas would make more sense than two (!) lethal rounds to the head. Even if he was personally returning fire - seals are seals, they could have detonated the floor under him and brought him down without even giving him a chance to shoot himself. I just don't get it. I think we all feel a bit cheated by the way this was executed. If they really had him cornered in a compound, multiple headshots seems terribly excessive and un-seals like. Yeah I don't buy for a second that they wanted to capture him alive. I'll bet they had orders to kill. They were ordered to kill him and make no attempt to capture him....he was in a fortified compound with 8' high stone walls and armed guards. "unseal like" i'm going to lose it. Well the reasoning to kill him surely wasn't because there was a brick wall around the house and two donkeys with AKs patrolling. Compared to 25 elite forces who trained this specific raid for weeks. If they wanted to get him alive, they could have. He was killed because of the unbelievable quagmire that a capture and trial would mean. Nobody wanted this creep making statements in a fair trial. Just remember the PR catastrophe the Saddam trial was. Yeah they've been watching the location for a few months before the order was given to go in. CIA obviously went over the pros cons for weeks with super smart analysts/leaders before ordering the kill mission. Theres a task force in afghanistan that changes its identifier every few months (for secrecy: its made up of Delta, ST6, then some allies like JTF2/SAS etc) that literally flies around the pakistan/afghan mountain border, finds taliban leaders and kills them. Every single evening. People are freaking out because its the first time they've heard of something like this, but it happens constantly....Fly in, kill leader and brothers protecting him. Fly home. Theres a lot of reports of CIA ops doing scare tactics on local Taliban villages too (old school: killing the taliban leader at night then nailing signs in Pashto to town hall door warning ppl who would replace him). If you had a list of the taliban/al quada leaders that had been killed by special forces in afghanistan/pakistan in the last year, today wouldn't be that shocking to people. Wait. Isnt this suppost to be beyond confifdential indormation? How you know this?
A good bit of this information has been leaked and is on various news sources, but yeah, it's impossible to know the scope of this or fully verify the accuracy. For example, it's widely accepted that the groups involved in these operations are ST6 and Delta, but it isn't even fully known if ST6 and Delta still exist or if another group comprised of their members has taken their place.
That said, it would be foolish to pretend the US with it's obscene military budget and scale doesn't have uber-secret black ops groups operating in Pakistan.
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On May 03 2011 00:56 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:53 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:51 ZeaL. wrote:On May 03 2011 00:47 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2011 00:40 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:38 Chrispy wrote:
Winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world while having your people parade and cheer in the streets over the death of one of their own (regardless of whether or not they support him), yeah good luck with that.
Most muslims would be very offended by this. "One of their own"? Do you know how many moderate muslims live in the world? It's like blaming some protestant family for the actions of Westboro baptist church - they are called extremists for a reason -_-. Please research before posting opinions. Actually i'm just going to delete your post because if i keep rereading it im going to hit ban. I try to think of it in terms of how I would react if my friends mom was murdered, they caught the guy, and he was put to death. I wouldnt be running around and yelling hip hip horray. I would be relieved and happy but respectful that this marks closure for the loss of loved ones. But yah I agree that hes is no more a muslim than Hitler was a catholic. Yeah wtf is up with people. I mean, yeah I'm mildly relieved that OBL is no more but I'm not going to go out in the streets chanting USA USA USA, the fuck is up with that. It's a bunch of excited new yorkers. I don't think anyone is saying that 250 million americans are jumping up and down....lets not type cast the entire bunch (americans, muslims etc). From what i can tell it was those New Yorkers, who had an understandable outburst of emotion, and college kids outside the white house who live in dorms 2 minutes away. College kids will celebrate and get drunk over ANYTHING. What other examples in all of America have their been of jubilant mass celebration?
Well the Sunday Night Baseball game crowd started spontaneously chanting USA USA USA as people found out from texts and things. Idk it isn't that unreasonable, Osama is pretty much at the level of Hitler and Stalin as far as universal despise here
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Thank whatever deity you want for Kenningit for being a good mod =) kept the thread sane these last few pages. =)
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:58 GG.NoRe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:25 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:09 zatic wrote:On May 03 2011 00:03 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:01 zatic wrote:On May 02 2011 23:51 Thrill wrote:On May 02 2011 23:43 Kennigit wrote:
Regarding why he was buried so fast at sea.
1) Islamic law requires fast burials. (24 hours i believe someone can confirm)
2) If they kept his body on the ship to take somewhere else, as soon as that info hits the news every foreigner in pakistan/islamic world becomes immediate target for hostage taking to get the body back
3) If they bury him on soil, that site makes him more of a martyr and allows ppl/supporters to rally around it/visit etc.
Fast sea burial defuses it.
The white house/state department is debating which photos/videos to release without being too graphic (cranial exit wounds leave a bit of a mess). Well, the briefing doesn't state why a stronger effort wasn't made to capture him alive. Surely that should have been the main objective? Rubber bullet to the chest and tear gas would make more sense than two (!) lethal rounds to the head. Even if he was personally returning fire - seals are seals, they could have detonated the floor under him and brought him down without even giving him a chance to shoot himself. I just don't get it. I think we all feel a bit cheated by the way this was executed. If they really had him cornered in a compound, multiple headshots seems terribly excessive and un-seals like. Yeah I don't buy for a second that they wanted to capture him alive. I'll bet they had orders to kill. They were ordered to kill him and make no attempt to capture him....he was in a fortified compound with 8' high stone walls and armed guards. "unseal like" i'm going to lose it. Well the reasoning to kill him surely wasn't because there was a brick wall around the house and two donkeys with AKs patrolling. Compared to 25 elite forces who trained this specific raid for weeks. If they wanted to get him alive, they could have. He was killed because of the unbelievable quagmire that a capture and trial would mean. Nobody wanted this creep making statements in a fair trial. Just remember the PR catastrophe the Saddam trial was. Yeah they've been watching the location for a few months before the order was given to go in. CIA obviously went over the pros cons for weeks with super smart analysts/leaders before ordering the kill mission. Theres a task force in afghanistan that changes its identifier every few months (for secrecy: its made up of Delta, ST6, then some allies like JTF2/SAS etc) that literally flies around the pakistan/afghan mountain border, finds taliban leaders and kills them. Every single evening. People are freaking out because its the first time they've heard of something like this, but it happens constantly....Fly in, kill leader and brothers protecting him. Fly home. Theres a lot of reports of CIA ops doing scare tactics on local Taliban villages too (old school: killing the taliban leader at night then nailing signs in Pashto to town hall door warning ppl who would replace him). If you had a list of the taliban/al quada leaders that had been killed by special forces in afghanistan/pakistan in the last year, today wouldn't be that shocking to people. Wait. Isnt this suppost to be beyond confifdential indormation? How you know this?
It's not confidential theres many articles in time/news papers/books about it. They just dont talk about it that much.
Just google "task force hunting taliban"
first hit - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/task-force-373-secret-afghanistan-taliban
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Task_Force_121
That was the name of the task force in 08 i believe, they routinely change the number so its less obvious. The mission is the same though, local intel to find high value targets/leadership then either kill or capture them.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:56 Kennigit wrote:
Some interesting points
- Bush did his "Mission Accomplished" speech 8 years ago today.
- May 2 1945 - Hitler's death announced.
IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!!?! Jewish 9/11 Nazi Flying Saucers from the dark side of the moon took him home?!?!?
Seriously what's up with the Hitler references?
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On May 03 2011 01:00 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:56 Kennigit wrote:
Some interesting points
- Bush did his "Mission Accomplished" speech 8 years ago today.
- May 2 1945 - Hitler's death announced. IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!!?! Jewish 9/11 Nazi Flying Saucers from the dark side of the moon took him home?!?!? Seriously what's up with the Hitler references?
It's just a weird coincidence and people attach themselves to them. I mean, if you go to the Wikipedia page for any day of the year, you can find dozens of coincidences and make a big deal of them if you want to.
Edit: Here is today's page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2 Have a blast.
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On May 03 2011 00:53 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 00:51 ZeaL. wrote:On May 03 2011 00:47 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2011 00:40 Kennigit wrote:On May 03 2011 00:38 Chrispy wrote:
Winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world while having your people parade and cheer in the streets over the death of one of their own (regardless of whether or not they support him), yeah good luck with that.
Most muslims would be very offended by this. "One of their own"? Do you know how many moderate muslims live in the world? It's like blaming some protestant family for the actions of Westboro baptist church - they are called extremists for a reason -_-. Please research before posting opinions. Actually i'm just going to delete your post because if i keep rereading it im going to hit ban. I try to think of it in terms of how I would react if my friends mom was murdered, they caught the guy, and he was put to death. I wouldnt be running around and yelling hip hip horray. I would be relieved and happy but respectful that this marks closure for the loss of loved ones. But yah I agree that hes is no more a muslim than Hitler was a catholic. Yeah wtf is up with people. I mean, yeah I'm mildly relieved that OBL is no more but I'm not going to go out in the streets chanting USA USA USA, the fuck is up with that. It's a bunch of excited new yorkers. I don't think anyone is saying that 250 million americans are jumping up and down....lets not type cast the entire bunch (americans, muslims etc).
I'm not trying to typecast Americans as anything. I'm at work in Atlanta, Georgia and no one has even mentioned it today. I'm just bewildered as to why people decided to rally in NYC and DC on such short notice to celebrate bin Laden being killed.
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EPT
