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Pokerstars is an online poker site. Pokerstrategy is an educational training site. They are not the same site. The TSL3 is sponsored by pokerstrategy.com. |
On April 16 2011 12:01 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 11:55 Ingenol wrote:On April 16 2011 11:45 PJA wrote:On April 16 2011 11:35 Ingenol wrote:On April 16 2011 11:26 PJA wrote:On April 16 2011 11:04 CaucasianAsian wrote:On April 16 2011 10:55 PJA wrote:On April 16 2011 10:50 jeparie wrote:On April 16 2011 10:45 Hatsu wrote:On April 16 2011 10:41 jeparie wrote:
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You do realize that there are people that could be losing 5 and 6 figures here. That's hardly "a pretty good lesson."
That is the very definition of a "pretty good lesson", in fact. You're confusing "a pretty good lesson" with "absolutely ridiculous punishment for people that didn't do anything wrong." Also "ruining lives" in some cases. It is absolutely ridiculous, and definitely ruining some people's lives. But the people whose lives are being ruined weren't doing anything productive for society. Not saying they deserved it, but it makes it hard to feel sorry for them. They may not provide research or anything useful to the community (but what do movies and actors do? atheletes? How are they any different? Where you are literally allowed to sit down and play with these people in their professional field. There's no way you would be able to put on some ice skates and join the Washington Capitals during their hockey season. They just won't allow it. Poker is a game where you can play with famous people in their choice of profession. It is similar to daytrading in the sense you are working at home. But you cant compete with a high class day trader in a social atmosphere like poker. Firstly, <3 all the hate. These forums are awesome. Second, I don't think you are making a fair comparison. The stars who are providing entertainment to the masses, Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan, etc. etc., even probably lesser known people like Isildur, luckychewie, balugawhale, etc. are not going broke over this. Phil Ivey probably loses more money playing craps than he is losing from this shit. The people whose "lives are being ruined" are random people who grind 30k a year. They're not entertaining anyone. It's unfortunate that they're going to lose their bankroll, but it is also unfortunate that they felt that poker was their best way to make a living, and it's probably for the better that they're forced to do something else. Also, comparing poker to day trading isn't really accurate. The stock market (at least in theory) provides a legitimate service to businesses, unlike poker. The bottom line is this: you either believe each individual has a fundamental right to his life and his property and to do whatever he sees fit with either, or you do not. You, apparently, do not. Edited for grammar. You misunderstand. I agree that people have a fundamental right to do what they want with their property. I also have a fundamental right to think less of them if they play poker for a living rather than do something more productive. Just because I think that people should be allowed to do what they want doesn't mean that I will hold the same opinion of everyone regardless of the choices they make. Absolutely, but if you do believe they have that right, then you should be outraged that it is being denied them. It's the same reason bans on smoking in private establishments outrage me, even though I abhor smoking and would prefer a smoke-free bar. Except the two cases aren't even remotely similar. The poker sites are being seized for blatantly lying about their activities to banks, and probably avoiding taxes and other charges in the process. If anything, poker players should be pissed off at the shady business model used by poker sites, not the government.
If anything poker players should be pissed that the poker sites had to go through so much trouble and break laws just to allow its customers to play online poker.
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On April 16 2011 12:01 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 11:55 Ingenol wrote:On April 16 2011 11:45 PJA wrote:On April 16 2011 11:35 Ingenol wrote:On April 16 2011 11:26 PJA wrote:On April 16 2011 11:04 CaucasianAsian wrote:On April 16 2011 10:55 PJA wrote:On April 16 2011 10:50 jeparie wrote:On April 16 2011 10:45 Hatsu wrote:On April 16 2011 10:41 jeparie wrote:
[quote]
You do realize that there are people that could be losing 5 and 6 figures here. That's hardly "a pretty good lesson."
That is the very definition of a "pretty good lesson", in fact. You're confusing "a pretty good lesson" with "absolutely ridiculous punishment for people that didn't do anything wrong." Also "ruining lives" in some cases. It is absolutely ridiculous, and definitely ruining some people's lives. But the people whose lives are being ruined weren't doing anything productive for society. Not saying they deserved it, but it makes it hard to feel sorry for them. They may not provide research or anything useful to the community (but what do movies and actors do? atheletes? How are they any different? Where you are literally allowed to sit down and play with these people in their professional field. There's no way you would be able to put on some ice skates and join the Washington Capitals during their hockey season. They just won't allow it. Poker is a game where you can play with famous people in their choice of profession. It is similar to daytrading in the sense you are working at home. But you cant compete with a high class day trader in a social atmosphere like poker. Firstly, <3 all the hate. These forums are awesome. Second, I don't think you are making a fair comparison. The stars who are providing entertainment to the masses, Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan, etc. etc., even probably lesser known people like Isildur, luckychewie, balugawhale, etc. are not going broke over this. Phil Ivey probably loses more money playing craps than he is losing from this shit. The people whose "lives are being ruined" are random people who grind 30k a year. They're not entertaining anyone. It's unfortunate that they're going to lose their bankroll, but it is also unfortunate that they felt that poker was their best way to make a living, and it's probably for the better that they're forced to do something else. Also, comparing poker to day trading isn't really accurate. The stock market (at least in theory) provides a legitimate service to businesses, unlike poker. The bottom line is this: you either believe each individual has a fundamental right to his life and his property and to do whatever he sees fit with either, or you do not. You, apparently, do not. Edited for grammar. You misunderstand. I agree that people have a fundamental right to do what they want with their property. I also have a fundamental right to think less of them if they play poker for a living rather than do something more productive. Just because I think that people should be allowed to do what they want doesn't mean that I will hold the same opinion of everyone regardless of the choices they make. Absolutely, but if you do believe they have that right, then you should be outraged that it is being denied them. It's the same reason bans on smoking in private establishments outrage me, even though I abhor smoking and would prefer a smoke-free bar. Except the two cases aren't even remotely similar. The poker sites are being seized for blatantly lying about their activities to banks, and probably avoiding taxes and other charges in the process. If anything, poker players should be pissed off at the shady business model used by poker sites, not the government.
Not at all, the sites only did that because the United States government decided it was illegal for someone to decide how to spend their money and time. Was what they did technically illegal? Yes. Did they steal from anyone? No. They were merely avoiding a law that shouldn't have existed in the first place, and it outrages me that it was passed by my government.
Poker players should be angry with the government and only the government.
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On April 16 2011 12:03 Ingenol wrote:
Poker players should be angry with the government and only the government.
We are. No one with a brain is upset with Stars/FTP. UB, sure, but that's different.
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For those of you being hostile to the poker players
fuck you
Maybe next time i'll make your 5/6/7 figure life savings disappear too yeah? Nah you didn't deserve it in the first place
Poker and SC are very closely tied together, and you should appreciate that
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On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught. Some of you are starting to sound like hardcore libertarians, especially the Europeans. :x
Bull, man. The UIGEA is the cause of this "lawbreaking", and it's not only constitutionally very freaking questionable, but also in violation of international treaty. It's nonsense in the first place, and those of us in the US who have done well at poker are grateful they've been making it happen for us.
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Itsn't Rootgaming sponsored by Pokerstar? Will they lost the sponsorship? Pretty sad to see this after they try hard to get some sponsors.
And for the people who have thousand of dollars tie up in these sites, my heartfelt condolences. Hopefully you will be able to recover part of the money, eventually 
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From pokerstars.
![[image loading]](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1947/effs.png)
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My close buddy has almost 20k tied up atm. I'm pretty sure it's gone, and although I feel for him, I just have to say that he should have seen this coming. If one was to just analyze the commercials that PokerStars and Full Tilt have been circulating in the U.S. for quite some time now, any reasonable person could have discerned that they were breaking quite a few laws. In addition, if you have ever played online (which I have), individuals should notice how they quite CLEARLY break laws when they process deposits / withdrawals. Ever notice how the name of the deposit is usually from a completely different entity or name than the site?
TL;DR
Anyways, it's bullshit, but not unexpected.
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Does this mean the TSL will continue or not?
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On April 16 2011 11:45 jeparie wrote:
There was never anything questionably legal about Pokerstars or FT.
They absolutely advertise everywhere that you can play with real money on their sites. Don't tell me you've never seen those ridiculous "I call your $600 and match you another $600 deposit bonus blah blah" ads with Phil Ivey? Do you even play poker, sir?
A fool and his money? If you say so, but honestly, you're coming across as the fool here.
Maybe you should do a little research into these sites before making generalized statements about "legality" and such.
Of course there was. The fact that when UIGEA passed in the first place should have been reason enough - especially when other sites like PartyPoker and Pacific Poker took it way more seriously and blocked US players entirely. Not surprisingly, those sites are still up and running right now. Me, and a lot of other people, quit when PP pulled out of the US (ok, partly because PartyPoker was the softest game around, but also because it was obvious that the government wasn't going to ignore online poker).
And they don't advertise "everywhere" about real money games. I've you've ever seen a commercial on ESPN, FTP, AP, and PS were always very careful about advertising for their ".net" site and not their ".com" site. The ".net" sites were all play money games. Of course, on the internet it's a different story because they thought they could get away with it. Didn't work out that way.
Edit: hell, just google "not a gambling site". There's tons and tons of people asking "wait how is this not a gambling site" and people constantly explaining the ".net" versus ".com" difference.
Also, try not to forget that for the hundreds of thousands of European players, there was never anything illegal about Stars or FT. Nothing, not a single thing. Not even the payment processing, which is what this whole thing is about.
Again, try reading before posting pls
Perhaps you'd like to read the press release before posting. This is not just about "payment processing". If you actually read the press release in the very first post, you'll see that AP, FTP, and PS are being charged with:
1. Conspiracy to Violate Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA)
2. Violation of Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA)
3. Operation of Illegal Gambling Business
4. Committing Bank Fraud and Wire Fraud
5. Money Laundering Conspiracy
This whole "it's just about payment processing argument" is false. It is illegal to operate an internet poker site in the US. Yes, there is also lots of other stuff involving their financial transactions with US banks (namely SunFirst Bank). But it's also about the illegal operation of a poker site.
Go read the press release for yourself if you haven't already:
http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2011/manhattan-u.s.-attorney-charges-principals-of-three-largest-internet-poker-companies-with-bank-fraud-illegal-gambling-offenses-and-laundering-billions-in-illegal-gambling-proceeds
or the .pdf link the OP.
I do feel extra bad for non-US players, since this is about the companies' legal issues in a different jurisdiction. That said, that's how the world works now. It's not uncommon to lose money because of the political or legal decisions in an entirely different country. It sucks but it happens. I hope people can find alternative sources of income.
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On April 16 2011 12:38 relyt wrote:From pokerstars.
relief face
FUCK YEAH PS
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On April 16 2011 12:25 bronzeterran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:59 Jibba wrote:I know people here are extremely invested in poker, but a lot of you would be cheering for the DoJ if it had been one of the other multi-billion dollar companies abusing loopholes and using offshore bank accounts. A dirty business got caught. Some of you are starting to sound like hardcore libertarians, especially the Europeans. :x Bull, man. The UIGEA is the cause of this "lawbreaking", and it's not only constitutionally very freaking questionable, but also in violation of international treaty. It's nonsense in the first place, and those of us in the US who have done well at poker are grateful they've been making it happen for us.
It is in no way Constitutionally questionable. We're talking about international commerce here, which is one of the most basic functions the federal government is empowered to regulate:
The Congress shall have Power [...] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States
I'd also like to know what treaty UIGEA allegedly violates. I've never heard that before so I'm genuinely interested.
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Those of you who had more than 10k tied up in online poker sites: what the fuck were you thinking? I know players who refuse to use those sites at all because they view them as insecure and prone to corruption. If you somehow get your money back for god's sakes take the lesson and don't keep so much liquid there.
User was warned for this post
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On April 16 2011 12:44 Kar98 wrote:
Does this mean the TSL will continue or not?
TSL will more than likely be fine, as they are sponsored by a poker strategy site, and not a poker site. Even then despite being a strategy and educational site, pokerstrategy.com has always denied US customers, so we werent their base customers anyway. The industry as a whole will take a hit, without the US, but I think it is safe to say foreign sites are fine for now. Especially one such as pokerstrategy that doesnt offer play.
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Meh PS is in a lose-lose situation if they declare that the sky is falling because everyone will just cash out their money and they'll stop playing on the site, which means less immediate profits if they do survive this. So I'm not really sure if I can believe them when they say that it is "business as usual" for non-us players.
But yeah hopefully it is true. And hopefully the rumors that PS is going to shut down permanently are unfounded.
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On April 16 2011 12:55 UniversalSnip wrote:
Those of you who had more than 10k tied up in online poker sites: what the fuck were you thinking? I know players who refuse to use those sites at all because they view them as insecure and prone to corruption. If you somehow get your money back for god's sakes take the lesson and don't keep so much liquid there.
Because to play high stakes you have to have a large bankroll
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On April 16 2011 12:55 UniversalSnip wrote:
Those of you who had more than 10k tied up in online poker sites: what the fuck were you thinking? I know players who refuse to use those sites at all because they view them as insecure and prone to corruption. If you somehow get your money back for god's sakes take the lesson and don't keep so much liquid there.
Its quite simple. For starters, most good regs started with 50-200 bucks and turned them into 10k or more. 2nd, poker is a high variance game and you need a big bankroll compared to the stake you play to avoid ruin when you run bad (and you are a long term winning player). Also, the higher u play, the lower ur edge/higher variance, so you need even more bi's relative to the stake.
For example, a simple br management (some people use more agressive/less agressive bankroll management, but this kinda standard):
stake / bank roll required
nl10 - 200 bucks
nl25 - 600 bucks
nl50 - 1250 bucks
nl100 - 3k
nl200 - 10k
nl600 - 60k
nl1k - 100k
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I truly feel bad for all the US citizens out there who were just robbed.
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I have 6k on full tilt and I'm not optimistic about getting it back. The situation really sucks, and I've felt sick to my stomach since first reading this thread while at work earlier today (2+2 is blocked there, if it wasn't for tl I wouldn't of known until I got home and started trying to play). Hopefully everyone who has money tied up can get it back, but its hard to think positively about it today. On the flip side, I now have a lot more time to play & watch starcraft. 
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EPT
