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On March 31 2011 22:11 MichaelEU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:50 Tufas wrote:On March 31 2011 21:48 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote:
So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics. It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate. Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad  Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/ I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here.
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On March 31 2011 22:11 MichaelEU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:50 Tufas wrote:On March 31 2011 21:48 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote:
So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics. It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate. Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/ I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it.
Musicians are magical being without opinions that materialise on every gig and play their music ? I for example think that lyrics are a very important part of the music and when I hear a bunch of stupid lyrics he can play guitar like Adrian Legg and I couldnt care less. Part of why so many rock bands of the 60s are still so absolutely awesome to listen to is for the message they are carrying ..
Ah damn, its derailing the thread. PM me if you want to discuss it further.
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I <3 you GTR, and thanks for the edit.
Anyway, what's "sc2 council" and does it have anything to do with Seoul sponsorship?
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On March 31 2011 22:13 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 22:11 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 21:50 Tufas wrote:On March 31 2011 21:48 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote:
So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics. It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate. Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/ I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it. The lyrics have an important meaning, instead of just being another love song.
That's great, if the people listen to that and feel comfort in that or feel it adds to the music then that's absolutely fantastic for them. Not something I like. It's almost like poetry, where if it's situated in a nice package it suddenly becomes the almighty truth. But of course, that's debatable so we get a discussion. A political discussion. And then the focus is drawn away from the music.
And I wouldn't like that if I were music.
But I was wrong with my wording, stating things as facts. It is an opinion, it's how I think it should be and it's something many disagree with. And that's totally fine with me.
On March 31 2011 22:18 Zechs wrote:
I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here.
Actually, I'm currently into studying the 1st Fuga of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier from our good friend J.S. Bach. He was religious, but it can be seperated from his music. I've also been listening to Miles Davis' jazz works as of late.
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On March 31 2011 22:09 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
but can you really say it's bad for people to take advantage of a podium their fame gives them to express a deeply felt belief?
No. The fact people use their fame that way dont disturb me at all. But a GSL is not the place and the moment for that from my personnal point of view
They can use their fame to be invited in some political shows and speak about their belief, no problem for that.
But in gaming show it's not it's place. People come to see games, nothing else. It's just uncalled for.
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On March 31 2011 22:22 MichaelEU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 22:13 Jibba wrote:On March 31 2011 22:11 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 21:50 Tufas wrote:On March 31 2011 21:48 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote:
So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics. It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate. Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/ I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it. The lyrics have an important meaning, instead of just being another love song. That's great, if the people listen to that and feel comfort in that or feel it adds to the music then that's absolutely fantastic for them. Not something I like. It's almost like poetry, where if it's situated in a nice package it suddenly becomes the almighty truth. But of course, that's debatable so we get a discussion. A political discussion. And then the focus is drawn away from the music. And I wouldn't like that if I were music. But I was wrong with my wording, stating things as facts. It is an opinion, it's how I think it should be and it's something many disagree with. And that's totally fine with me. Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 22:18 Zechs wrote:
I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here. Actually, I'm currently into studying the 1st Fuga of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier from our good friend J.S. Bach. He was religious, but it can be seperated from his music. I've also been listening to Miles Davis' jazz works as of late.
To clarify, i'm not saying that good music HAS to be philosophical or political. I listen to trance to chill out or whatever. But even that has an uplifting message that comes through the lyrics (dumb as they may be) and especially through the music itself. What i'm trying to get at is that if you ONLY listen to music solely because it "sounds cool" then you're missing out.
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Poor taste to bring up a nationalistic dispute in an event that's supposed to raise aid for the Japanese victims. It's two barren rocks for crying out loud, why would MKP think this is so important he has to state it in a fundraising event?
If he was bringing up some severe injustice, I might be "fine" with it, but something like this which is only a territorial dispute and nationalistic nonsense should stay out of sports of all kinds. Lost my respect for that guy.
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On March 31 2011 22:29 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 22:22 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 22:13 Jibba wrote:On March 31 2011 22:11 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 21:50 Tufas wrote:On March 31 2011 21:48 MichaelEU wrote:On March 31 2011 20:59 0meg4 wrote:
So many ignorant statements, obviously it have place in e-sports too, i hope i dont see someone say that not even in music should have politics. It shouldn't. And I say that as a musician. I say that as a musician that is interested in politics. I love the discussion. I love music. Keep it separate. Please tell me that you are trolling .. or you make me really really sad Why should there be no politics in music .. what ... explain Edit : Almost all of my favorite bands are political. They kind of have to be political to be my favorite bands. :/ I'm not trolling. If you're a fan of "political bands" you're not a fan of their music, but of their total image, their character, their sound, their image. I only care about the music, I don't buy into that shit that revolves around it. The lyrics have an important meaning, instead of just being another love song. That's great, if the people listen to that and feel comfort in that or feel it adds to the music then that's absolutely fantastic for them. Not something I like. It's almost like poetry, where if it's situated in a nice package it suddenly becomes the almighty truth. But of course, that's debatable so we get a discussion. A political discussion. And then the focus is drawn away from the music. And I wouldn't like that if I were music. But I was wrong with my wording, stating things as facts. It is an opinion, it's how I think it should be and it's something many disagree with. And that's totally fine with me. On March 31 2011 22:18 Zechs wrote:
I genuinely feel sorry for you if that's your attitude. Then again, maybe you're into this shitty kpop/jpop or whatever, in which case i fully understand. The reason music is so shitty these days is precisely becaues it has no meaning. I would call it art for art's sake, but it seems inaccurate to label that manufactured noise as art... anyway, getting pretty off topic here. Actually, I'm currently into studying the 1st Fuga of Das Wohltemperierte Klavier from our good friend J.S. Bach. He was religious, but it can be seperated from his music. I've also been listening to Miles Davis' jazz works as of late. To clarify, i'm not saying that good music HAS to be philosophical or political. I listen to trance to chill out or whatever. But even that has an uplifting message that comes through the lyrics (dumb as they may be) and especially through the music itself. What i'm trying to get at is that if you ONLY listen to music solely because it "sounds cool" then you're missing out.
I think you're confusing a political message with a message that brings out your emotions. Lyrics can help with that, dumb as they may be, but it actually is perfectly possible to do so without any, thus ditching the dumb parts. And I love ditching the dumb parts.
I don't necessarily mean ditching vocals, as opposed to lyrics. I love listening to vocals even if I don't understand crap about (or even if I do, hah, e.g. I listen to metal music once every while).
Well, if you think I'm missing out, I'm not saying all this shit without at least trying it out. But I'll stick to me and my "cool sounding" music.
I'm going too off topic here but it's an interesting discussion, anyone willing to continue should do so over PM.
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On March 31 2011 22:09 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
More generally to the point: Sport, like music, has been a forum for political discourse throughout history, and it's going to stay that way. Athletes have opinions just like everyone else, some of them very deeply felt, and if you put them in a forum with a very large audience, some of them are going to express them. It might be aggravating, but can you really say it's bad for people to take advantage of a podium their fame gives them to express a deeply felt belief?
Of cause you can't stop people from taking advantage of that, but you can make sure that they are aware of the consequence, if they felt it needed to be heard above all else, it's upto them.
I think many people are generally looking at this from a too low of level. Everyone should able to express their opinion, nothing is wrong with that.
But imagine your in a shoe of average gamer who wants esports to grow, you want the event to be successful, popular, you want to create an environment where people with different ethic, beliefs can get together and enjoy something they love. The last thing you want is some sort of controversy issue that divides the people.
These controversy issues can often leads to decrease in viewerships, where some people simply do not feel comfortable with the environment. It can also leads to boycott where it has happened in
Olympics. You want as much viewers as possible so big sponsors are willing to put in the money.
Worse of all, people with personal agenda can use it against the community or the event. For example if someone made a political statement in an event, then suddenly you might find dumb political figures accusing and stereotyping gamers, then news network reported that, and bang, you'll find whole alot of dumb parents suddenly stop their kids from playing that game.
I know the example I gave was bit extreme, but I just want to point out we should not encourage political statement in esport scene because it's most likely bring more bad than good.
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On March 31 2011 22:33 sushiman wrote:
Poor taste to bring up a nationalistic dispute in an event that's supposed to raise aid for the Japanese victims. It's two barren rocks for crying out loud, why would MKP think this is so important he has to state it in a fundraising event?
If he was bringing up some severe injustice, I might be "fine" with it, but something like this which is only a territorial dispute and nationalistic nonsense should stay out of sports of all kinds. Lost my respect for that guy.
I agree to some extent.
This event was hardly the right place to bring forth anti-japanese sentiment . Politics should stay out of e-sports anyway.
btw: It is sad that two developed countries like SK and Japan can't settle an insignificant dispute like that and even more sad that both sides infuse their youth with nationalistic nonsense over such a minor issue. The leaders of both countries should feel ashamed. I wouldn't blame MKP himself, he is just brainwashed.
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so long as it does not interfere with the esport or game itself
it looks like he just put up the sign in the pre-game commentary while everyone was waiting for the game to start anyways, no harm in that
if it actually started interfering with the esport, then that becomes a problem
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I'm perfectly fine with sportspeople of any sport, be it traditional or electronic to express their views on whatever matters they wish but there are better places to do so than right after a game. Just holding up a sign after winning a contest instead of making an intelligent and reasoned statement in an interview or the such will only lead to misunderstandings, division amongst both the audience and competitors and anger towards the player.
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On March 31 2011 20:57 shinarit wrote:
They can have opinion, they can express it, but not in an event where people go to watch sport.
This is exactly right. If the Korean e-Sports scene does not have a particular stance on a controversial subject, then players shouldn't go around promoting that stance while inside the booth or while wearing a team's colors.
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well guess the real tragedy is, that Japan and Korea have a senseless dispute over those tiny islands.
Had to look it up, there are 2 permanent citizens and 37 Korean police officers living on Dokdo - kinda stupid isn't it?
but on topic, if the programers feel compelled to express their opinion on this topic, they should be free to do so
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There are a lot in there that nonKoreans don't and will never know about.
Personally I think at worst it's a matter of taste, but I don't mind,
especially given the gravity of the situation. This poll merely obscures and trivializes the situation.
Leave it be, especially foreigners.
It's like Ali's comments on the "Viet Congs" in the 60s. Then controversial, Now makes every sense.
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5003 Posts
I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
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On March 31 2011 23:18 Milkis wrote:
I personally think it's retarded they would bring in politics into the game arena. Leave that kind of stuff outside. It's clear that it's 100% for foreign fans who watch the GSL and honestly it's sad that the SC2 council would approve or even endorse pathetic attempts to spread things around.
I would have agreed with these kind of statement if I didnt know the story.
Before anyone is a progamer or a doctor or a bum, he is a person with immutable rights.
And those rights are exactly what are being fought for here.
Was it poor taste? Perhaps. But hey, I can swallow some poor taste over abuse of rights any day!
May I recommend to those who don't know what's up here, please refrain from stirring this up.
It's a controversial and explosive issue as it is. There is no need to quarterback it on an online community. Thanks.
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On March 31 2011 23:10 Nesto wrote:
well guess the real tragedy is, that Japan and Korea have a senseless dispute over those tiny islands.
Had to look it up, there are 2 permanent citizens and 37 Korean police officers living on Dokdo - kinda stupid isn't it?
I feel like I should point out that these territorial disputes over tiny or insignificant seeming islands (Japan and Russia dispute the ownership of a few islands around Sakhalin/Karafuto that are similarly unpopulated) can actually have a significance beyond petty nationalistic squabbling, though there's obviously a lot of that, too. By international law, a country gains exclusive fishing and other economic exploitation rights in a region extending up to 200 nautical miles from its shoreline, so if you can establish ownership of a tiny little rock in the middle of the ocean, that can be worth significantly more than the island itself would seem to justify.
Obviously, this situation must be a bit more complicated, because we're not dealing with an island out in the middle of nowhere, but we shouldn't just assume that the only source of this sort of dispute is chest thumping and childish pettiness.
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He's allowed to have an opinion, just like my opinion that politics has no place in SC2.
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OGN had that Dokdo Is Korean Land/Territory, I forget which, as part of its station Logo for a while does not seem like a big deal. Seems more of a fad than a political statement, like people having runty US flags hanging from their car window after 9-11.
Just because an individual is being nationalistic doesn't mean they're being hostile.
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