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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
Well, damn, let's all get on the work 60 hours a week for 1.5$/hour bandwagon. I mean, the Chinese are doing it, it's got to be a good idea. You first. Or do you not actually mean what you say, and are just aiming to show how things that you disagree with on a political basis, are a Bad Idea? | ||
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
The more you unionize, the less competitive your economy becomes, and the more corporations will outsource. globalization ROCKS! with no unions it means that no matter where you live.. you will be paid the lowest salary possible..just becouse somewhere where there are no labour laws and people get exploited, can do it cheaper =) | ||
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
So you would like to work for 1 dollar an hour, 16 hours a day? Because that argument makes no sense, people in undeveloped countries will ALWAYS be cheaper, so using your logic everyone will just outsource anyways. | ||
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thebigdonkey
United States354 Posts
Capitalism as an idea is a very good incentive model for improving society. Sadly, I think pure capitalism in our globalized economy has evolved (or devolved) to the point where the societal benefits of pure capitalism are very debatable. The incentive model isn't rewarding improvement of society as much anymore, it's rewarding those who can game the system the most..yes I'm looking at you investment bankers. The degree of economic inequality is increasing while the level of social mobility is decreasing. Unions have traditionally been a counteracting dam holding back that flood, but I think that dam has burst. I will never argue that unions are without fault. Truly, they have been among the most corrupt organizations of recent history. However, I do believe they performed a needed function in our society. I am wondering if anything will fill the gap they are leaving behind. | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
Minimum wage has nothing to do with unions. Many highly rated employers are companies with no unions. Unions frequently abuse their position by requesting unreasonable benefits which ultimately force the company's hand to outsource instead of provide lower-paid jobs to people of the same country. The city in which I live has had multiple teacher strikes and public transit worker's strikes that have caused a shitload of inconvenience to everyone... all because their employer refused to give them a 15% pay raise!!!!! What the fuck? People who have no education and drive buses here make more than thirty dollars an hour. Are you serious? In the meantime, public transportation is becoming less accessible for the poor (arguably who need it the most), since fares keep having to be increased to pay for the inflated salaries of the unionized workers. If unions are used correctly in prevent exploitation of workers, then i'm 100% behind the idea. The fact of the matter is however that most unions just do whatever they can to abuse their situation and get as much as possible for the workers regardless of whether or not they deserve it. Its despicable and needs to stop. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
Unions are a necessity to some extent and are generally beneficial for society in many situations. However, if unions become too strong, they can severely stagnate growth or create inefficiencies that are not ideal for a given economy (see: Agricultural subsidies in the US) | ||
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thebigdonkey
United States354 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:26 Reason.SC2 wrote: If unions are used correctly in prevent exploitation of workers, then i'm 100% behind the idea. The fact of the matter is however that most unions just do whatever they can to abuse their situation and get as much as possible for the workers regardless of whether or not they deserve it. Its despicable and needs to stop. Because CEO's of large corporations don't ever abuse their situations to get as much as possible whether they deserve it or not? It works both ways, chief. Edit: http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621/ This link explains it all. Are CEO's really worth 10x more to a company now than they were in 1965? I think not. It's a case of people taking because they can. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
This isn't to say that abuses of power within unions is an impossibility. That whole dialogue that unions are the ones ripping people off (in order for master's degree holding teachers to get a middle class wage) is nonsense. It only clouds the issue and doesn't address the gregarious abuses of power that are rampant in the current government. The American middle and lower classes are being held accountable for the state of the economy. Cuts in government spending will effect them the most and those responsible for the economy's current state will be rewarded for it. | ||
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Smurphy
United States374 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:31 thebigdonkey wrote: Because CEO's of large corporations don't ever abuse their situations to get as much as possible whether they deserve it or not? It works both ways, chief. Edit: http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621/ This link explains it all. Are CEO's really worth 10x more to a company now than they were in 1965? I think not. It's a case of people taking because they can. Correct. Unions, CEOs, Corporations, dogs, policeman, mothers, vampires... anything can be corrupt. Simply because one side is corrupt does not mean the other side is definitively in the right or wrong. | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
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RedBarchetta
49 Posts
However, whether or not they are necessary is utterly irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the right to organize and make agreements is a basic individual liberty. Even if it were somehow possible to make it so the right to unionize and bargain collectively for benefits and salary unnecessary, taking away the right to unionize would not be justified. Lack of necessity for a right or ability is never justification for government intervention To restrict that ability, like my esteemed Governor Scott Walker is attempting to do, constitutes an astounding overreach of government power. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:39 Smurphy wrote: Correct. Unions, CEOs, Corporations, dogs, policeman, mothers, vampires... anything can be corrupt. Simply because one side is corrupt does not mean the other side is definitively in the right or wrong. The option we have is either having only the interest of the shareholders heard, or having both the interests of the shareholders and the workers heard. With unions, there is at least a hint of democracy within corporations. Republicans, Libertarians and others who want to keep corporations the way they are but reduce the size and influence of government, should love unions. If you want to get rid of a strong state with strong regulation then unions are the only alternative for keeping the corporations in check. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
They need to be better regulated though in my opinion: 1) Striking or any form of mass disruption should be illegal. 2) Union bosses shouldn't be allowed to earn more than 2 times the average wage of their member. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9422 Posts
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nemY
United States3119 Posts
On March 09 2011 02:11 hidiliho wrote: LMAO. I read this as "Are onions necessary in the modern world?" I was like: "whats wrong with onions? I just woke up  On March 09 2011 04:17 Reptilia wrote: anyone else read "Are Onions necessary..." I read this as "Are Unicorns necessary in the modern world" | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:48 DrainX wrote: The option we have is either having only the interest of the shareholders heard, or having both the interests of the shareholders and the workers heard. With unions, there is at least a hint of democracy within corporations. Republicans, Libertarians and others who want to keep corporations the way they are but reduce the size and influence of government, should love unions. If you want to get rid of a strong state with strong regulation then unions are the only alternative for keeping the corporations in check. No, unions are anathema to free marketers. Given that unions demand livable wages and normal benefits, things that free marketers don't want or care for, unions are a problem in a free market society. Combined with the ability to get nearly every worker in a specific trade behind them, unions are a problem. Unions effectively act as government regulation under a different name. | ||
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huameng
United States1133 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:55 nemY wrote: I read this as "Are Unicorns necessary in the modern world" Do you have any idea how much happier 4 year old girls would be? Vote yes on unicorns. | ||
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thebigdonkey
United States354 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:48 divito wrote: All unions do is inflate worth, with no considerable (if any) gain in productivity, and force companies to outsource to remain competitive or maintain certain profit margins. Yep this is true. But who reaps the rewards from increased profit margins? Who drives the expectations for those profit margins, that is to say, who decides that a company is entitled to ever increasing profit margins. I'll just give you an example. I work for an IT company who bids for outsourced IT contracts. The company whose account I work on is always trying to drive down the outsourced contract costs. Theoretically, they're trying to be "leaner". But you know what it leads to? My company no longer hires people full time, they bring in temps from agencies to fill IT positions for not too much above minimum wage and with no benefits. Eventually, they do hire some of the people on to permanent positions, but in the mean time, these people are working for crap wages and can't afford to go to the doctor. These are generally skilled and somewhat educated (most people have at least an associates and some certifications) people getting pinched so everyone at the top in the contractee company can get a fatter bonus. And you know what? These people don't have a choice but to take it because the supply of labor is so high right now that companies can pay anything and people have to take it because the only alternative is unemployment. This is your capitalism, folks. | ||
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Dugrok
Canada377 Posts
The nickel mines here in Sudbury, Ontario make on average over 6 figures, have dental, and optical plans, more vacations than anyone I know, plus nickel bonus. Minimum required education is a high school diploma. Yet here they are complaining that they need more. Is it a high risk job? Sure, for the people who actually go underground, but a lot of these people are just support staff and never do. I'm generalizing here, and I apologize because I know there are quite a few miners who don't fall into the stereotype I'm setting (even in the Sudbury area). However, these miners are the assholes with the hummers who box in the little guy at the grocery store and laugh. They're the jackasses who drive big Harlies at 100kph in a school zone. They spend all their money on toys, and when they get stuck going on strike, they complain that the mine is being unfair... I mean, who's fault is it REALLY that you're broke? Like I said at the beginning of the post, unions are necessary and I'm not opposed to them existing in different sectors (because abuses are everywhere). That said, I think a lot of people are overly ambitious in their demands and should think about the real reason unions exist. | ||
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Dugrok
Canada377 Posts
On March 09 2011 06:51 Klive5ive wrote: Unions are useful for a lot of things, such as providing legal aid for their members. They need to be better regulated though in my opinion: 1) Striking or any form of mass disruption should be illegal. 2) Union bosses shouldn't be allowed to earn more than 2 times the average wage of their member. Why should striking be illegal? How else are they going to get noticed? EDIT: Sorry for the double post. It was unintentional, this post was supposed to go at the beginning of my previous one. | ||
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