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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. |
On September 13 2011 17:04 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 16:27 Pika Chu wrote:On September 13 2011 12:30 ImFromPortugal wrote:Bani Walid's resistance fading, but battle to overcome Gaddafi ties just beginning Bani Walid’s stubborn resistance to the rebels, which turned it from a Libyan crossroads town to the epicentre of the country’s civil war in the space of two weeks, may be nearing its end. On Sunday night the fighting in the town was so intense that rebel forces ran out of ambulances as casualties were rushed back down the road out of town. And, alarmingly, captives suggested that those staging the most bitter resistance were not members of pro-regime forces left behind by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, the dictator’s son, who left after marshalling defences, but townsfolk themselves. “There is no military here,” said Al-Hadi Imbiresh, a retired colonel from the town who had volunteered to lead a home guard of residents against the rebels, many of them like him fellow members of the dominant local tribe, the Warfalla. Over the last two weeks, rebels had tried to portray the town’s refusal to surrender as an example of the regime holding ordinary people hostage. But Col Imbiresh, who was nursing a foot which had taken a bullet and seemed to be allowed to speak freely after being captured on a scouting mission, said that local Warfalla had themselves been determined to resist.
“We are protecting our land, defending our people and defending Libya,” he said. “We don’t trust the rebels. We don’t know if they are going to steal our houses and rape our women.”http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8756262/Bani-Walids-resistance-fading-but-battle-to-overcome-Gaddafi-ties-just-beginning.html I think that breaks down the myth of a popular uprising and people hating gaddafi all over the country even for the most pro-westerners around. Well, when you think about it, if the anti-government folks were as numerous proportionally as in Egypt, then the revolution would have lasted no time at all and there most likely wouldn't have been civil war or foreign assault. I think that is proof enough that the story that "Everyone in Libya hates the government" is quite untrue. That said, it's not unlikely that at least some notable percentage of the people with the revolution are with it due to the influence of LIFG and other groups, and mob mentality and related concepts of incitement. A lot of the common people in the mix are probably the "YEAHHH LET'S DO THIS! GET ME INTO DA FIGHT!" sort rather than the "I believe that the government is satan incarnate and that the benefit of usurping it will well outweigh the cost *insert noble cause jargon here*". That's how such movements typically are. Those famous scenes of Lenin stirring the masses come to mind in the Russian revolution against the monarchy. On the flip side, many people fine with the status quo (which, when comparing to most developing countries, was pretty good in Libya) in revolutions generally don't want to be a part of the conflict. Then there's the camp opposite the revolutionaries who counteract it. Well, just a few thoughts on the matter.
The difference between Egypt and Lybia is that in Egypt the army left Mubarak and didn't want to shoot the peaceful protestors anymore. In Lybia only part of the army defaulted and the rest kept fighting for Gadaffi and he started hiring mercenaries after the armed uprising started.
Gadaffi does have supporters nobody denies that, his own tribe of course since he treated them the best and then you also have Sirte which is his birth place and while it was never really an important city Gadaffi pumped a lot of money in to it .
It's obvious that nobody really wants war but it's also obvious that Gadaffi did some very nasty things and people just want to decide their own future whether it will be better or worse we don't know but atleast they have a chance to do it better now.
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On September 13 2011 12:30 ImFromPortugal wrote:Bani Walid's resistance fading, but battle to overcome Gaddafi ties just beginning Bani Walid’s stubborn resistance to the rebels, which turned it from a Libyan crossroads town to the epicentre of the country’s civil war in the space of two weeks, may be nearing its end. On Sunday night the fighting in the town was so intense that rebel forces ran out of ambulances as casualties were rushed back down the road out of town. And, alarmingly, captives suggested that those staging the most bitter resistance were not members of pro-regime forces left behind by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, the dictator’s son, who left after marshalling defences, but townsfolk themselves. “There is no military here,” said Al-Hadi Imbiresh, a retired colonel from the town who had volunteered to lead a home guard of residents against the rebels, many of them like him fellow members of the dominant local tribe, the Warfalla. Over the last two weeks, rebels had tried to portray the town’s refusal to surrender as an example of the regime holding ordinary people hostage. But Col Imbiresh, who was nursing a foot which had taken a bullet and seemed to be allowed to speak freely after being captured on a scouting mission, said that local Warfalla had themselves been determined to resist.
“We are protecting our land, defending our people and defending Libya,” he said. “We don’t trust the rebels. We don’t know if they are going to steal our houses and rape our women.”http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8756262/Bani-Walids-resistance-fading-but-battle-to-overcome-Gaddafi-ties-just-beginning.html
Out of curiosity, is there any reason to believe a former colonel of Gadaffi's army over what I read from a supposed citizen and his family escaping from Bani Walid? To requote what was conveniently ignored by a certain group here:
Some residents of the town, meanwhile, were fleeing. One man, who identified himself as Abu Farook but did not want to provide his last name for fear of retribution, arrived at a checkpoint about 20 kilometers (12 miles) outside Bani Walid on Monday, accompanied by his wife and children.
"There are around 700 Gadhafi forces scattered around Bani Walid and another 150 in the center of the city," he said. "Most of them have sniper rifles and other heavy artillery positioned between houses in residential areas. These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
In addition, Abu Farook said, there are African mercenaries inside Bani Walid. He said there are no communications, no electricity and no running water. Food is running out for residents, he said.
He said NTC fighters are not inside Bani Walid, but on its northwest outskirts in the Manasla and Douwara neighborhoods, still about 10 kilometers (6 miles) from the city center.
Abu Farook said firing and explosions have taken place for 10 days but he could not flee until Monday. He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him.
The man's 7-year-old son, in the car, said he was scared by all the fighting and loud explosions.
source
I'm not saying one is more true over the other but I'm wondering if words from a former Gadaffi colonal in a pro-Gadaffi city should hold more weight than escaping citizens claiming there in fact are soldiers and even mercenaries in the city. Either could be true, but if the rebels with NATO support are having trouble entering the city it begs to question whether it's normal untrained citizens with weapons or Gadaffi soldiers/mercenaries with snipers and heavy artillery. Just a thought.
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On September 13 2011 19:08 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 12:30 ImFromPortugal wrote:Bani Walid's resistance fading, but battle to overcome Gaddafi ties just beginning Bani Walid’s stubborn resistance to the rebels, which turned it from a Libyan crossroads town to the epicentre of the country’s civil war in the space of two weeks, may be nearing its end. On Sunday night the fighting in the town was so intense that rebel forces ran out of ambulances as casualties were rushed back down the road out of town. And, alarmingly, captives suggested that those staging the most bitter resistance were not members of pro-regime forces left behind by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, the dictator’s son, who left after marshalling defences, but townsfolk themselves. “There is no military here,” said Al-Hadi Imbiresh, a retired colonel from the town who had volunteered to lead a home guard of residents against the rebels, many of them like him fellow members of the dominant local tribe, the Warfalla. Over the last two weeks, rebels had tried to portray the town’s refusal to surrender as an example of the regime holding ordinary people hostage. But Col Imbiresh, who was nursing a foot which had taken a bullet and seemed to be allowed to speak freely after being captured on a scouting mission, said that local Warfalla had themselves been determined to resist.
“We are protecting our land, defending our people and defending Libya,” he said. “We don’t trust the rebels. We don’t know if they are going to steal our houses and rape our women.”http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8756262/Bani-Walids-resistance-fading-but-battle-to-overcome-Gaddafi-ties-just-beginning.html Out of curiosity, is there any reason to believe a former colonel of Gadaffi's army over what I read from a supposed citizen and his family escaping from Bani Walid? To requote what was conveniently ignored by a certain group here: Show nested quote +Some residents of the town, meanwhile, were fleeing. One man, who identified himself as Abu Farook but did not want to provide his last name for fear of retribution, arrived at a checkpoint about 20 kilometers (12 miles) outside Bani Walid on Monday, accompanied by his wife and children.
"There are around 700 Gadhafi forces scattered around Bani Walid and another 150 in the center of the city," he said. "Most of them have sniper rifles and other heavy artillery positioned between houses in residential areas. These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
In addition, Abu Farook said, there are African mercenaries inside Bani Walid. He said there are no communications, no electricity and no running water. Food is running out for residents, he said.
He said NTC fighters are not inside Bani Walid, but on its northwest outskirts in the Manasla and Douwara neighborhoods, still about 10 kilometers (6 miles) from the city center.
Abu Farook said firing and explosions have taken place for 10 days but he could not flee until Monday. He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him.
The man's 7-year-old son, in the car, said he was scared by all the fighting and loud explosions. sourceI'm not saying one is more true over the other but I'm wondering if words from a former Gadaffi colonal in a pro-Gadaffi city should hold more weight than escaping citizens claiming there in fact are soldiers and even mercenaries in the city. Either could be true, but if the rebels with NATO support are having trouble entering the city it begs to question whether it's normal untrained citizens with weapons or Gadaffi soldiers/mercenaries with snipers and heavy artillery. Just a thought.
Speculation
* It would be normal for Colon Gadaffi to send troops to Bani Walid's because it is a pro region and not sending troops could degenerate the moral of the Libyan people following Gaddafi and he needs all the support. (plus from a tactical point of view if fights concentrate at Bani Walid that leaves other openings in the land for the different tribes and army to move around more freely (just my thoughts).
* I find it very intersting to say the least that this man can accurately claim the amount of soldier. Mind you this is pretty hard to do (ever tried to remember how many people are in a city and accurately be able to count them?), unless military personal informed/debrief the citizen of Bani Walid personally (which i doubt they do)
Think about it yourself how hard it is to identify 700 soldiers in the city and 150 outside (how do you know since they would usually be hidden right?) The message is a bit too specific for the events. (but that`s just my opinion)
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On September 13 2011 19:38 Saji wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 19:08 xBillehx wrote:On September 13 2011 12:30 ImFromPortugal wrote:Bani Walid's resistance fading, but battle to overcome Gaddafi ties just beginning Bani Walid’s stubborn resistance to the rebels, which turned it from a Libyan crossroads town to the epicentre of the country’s civil war in the space of two weeks, may be nearing its end. On Sunday night the fighting in the town was so intense that rebel forces ran out of ambulances as casualties were rushed back down the road out of town. And, alarmingly, captives suggested that those staging the most bitter resistance were not members of pro-regime forces left behind by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, the dictator’s son, who left after marshalling defences, but townsfolk themselves. “There is no military here,” said Al-Hadi Imbiresh, a retired colonel from the town who had volunteered to lead a home guard of residents against the rebels, many of them like him fellow members of the dominant local tribe, the Warfalla. Over the last two weeks, rebels had tried to portray the town’s refusal to surrender as an example of the regime holding ordinary people hostage. But Col Imbiresh, who was nursing a foot which had taken a bullet and seemed to be allowed to speak freely after being captured on a scouting mission, said that local Warfalla had themselves been determined to resist.
“We are protecting our land, defending our people and defending Libya,” he said. “We don’t trust the rebels. We don’t know if they are going to steal our houses and rape our women.”http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8756262/Bani-Walids-resistance-fading-but-battle-to-overcome-Gaddafi-ties-just-beginning.html Out of curiosity, is there any reason to believe a former colonel of Gadaffi's army over what I read from a supposed citizen and his family escaping from Bani Walid? To requote what was conveniently ignored by a certain group here: Some residents of the town, meanwhile, were fleeing. One man, who identified himself as Abu Farook but did not want to provide his last name for fear of retribution, arrived at a checkpoint about 20 kilometers (12 miles) outside Bani Walid on Monday, accompanied by his wife and children.
"There are around 700 Gadhafi forces scattered around Bani Walid and another 150 in the center of the city," he said. "Most of them have sniper rifles and other heavy artillery positioned between houses in residential areas. These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
In addition, Abu Farook said, there are African mercenaries inside Bani Walid. He said there are no communications, no electricity and no running water. Food is running out for residents, he said.
He said NTC fighters are not inside Bani Walid, but on its northwest outskirts in the Manasla and Douwara neighborhoods, still about 10 kilometers (6 miles) from the city center.
Abu Farook said firing and explosions have taken place for 10 days but he could not flee until Monday. He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him.
The man's 7-year-old son, in the car, said he was scared by all the fighting and loud explosions. sourceI'm not saying one is more true over the other but I'm wondering if words from a former Gadaffi colonal in a pro-Gadaffi city should hold more weight than escaping citizens claiming there in fact are soldiers and even mercenaries in the city. Either could be true, but if the rebels with NATO support are having trouble entering the city it begs to question whether it's normal untrained citizens with weapons or Gadaffi soldiers/mercenaries with snipers and heavy artillery. Just a thought. Speculation * It would be normal for Colon Gadaffi to send troops to Bani Walid's because it is a pro region and not sending troops could degenerate the moral of the Libyan people following Gaddafi and he needs all the support. (plus from a tactical point of view if fights concentrate at Bani Walid that leaves other openings in the land for the different tribes and army to move around more freely (just my thoughts). * I find it very intersting to say the least that this man can accurately claim the amount of soldier. Mind you this is pretty hard to do (ever tried to remember how many people are in a city and accurately be able to count them?), unless military personal informed/debrief the citizen of Bani Walid personally (which i doubt they do) Think about it yourself how hard it is to identify 700 soldiers in the city and 150 outside (how do you know since they would usually be hidden right?) The message is a bit too specific for the events. ( but that`s just my opinion)
Well he wasn't really specific. The usage of "around" means its a rough guess. I was just wondering why the word of a former Gadaffi colonel should hold more weight than a citizen of the pro-Gadaffi town supposedly escaping for his family. Naturally even among pro-Gadaffi citizens some would value their children over political will, so I don't doubt the possibility that someone would indeed try to escape the city to avoid fighting.
I agree it would be normal to have troops stationed there though, in fact I think that'd be the smartest thing to do on the Gadaffi side if he intends to keep fighting. However some are claiming it's just the citizens taking up arms to defend their own town and there's no soldiers whatsoever. It makes it a bit sensationalist to paint the picture of angry rebels terrorizing normal citizens alone, but ignores that normal citizens probably wouldn't be able to keep the rebels + NATO support out this long.
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xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you.
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On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you.
You shouldn't be patronizing. I simply question every bit of news I hear out of Libya, including what I believe to be true. (more than I can say about others though, which is funny because you call me gullible and unthinking.)
Nothing in what I quoted mentioned any troops were killing children for fun. It's an unfortunate side effect of fighting that there will be false casualties, so I wasn't even emphasizing on that point. However, I did question whether normal untrained civilians by themselves would be able to hold out attacks from NATO backed rebels. Is that not a legit question to ask? Personally I would agree with Gadaffi posting troops in the city if his intention is to fight, it makes complete sense to hold onto the areas that still support you. However some claim it's just citizens, which I questioned. It seems asking questions like this is apparently gullible and unthinking to you, which I find strange. Someone gullible wouldn't question at all, which is what I'm doing while you ignore said questions.
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On September 13 2011 20:04 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you. You shouldn't be patronizing. I simply question every bit of news I hear out of Libya, including what I believe to be true. (more than I can say about others though, which is funny because you call me gullible and unthinking.) Nothing in what I quoted mentioned any troops were killing children for fun. It's an unfortunate side effect of fighting that there will be false casualties, so I wasn't even emphasizing on that point. However, I did question whether normal untrained civilians by themselves would be able to hold out attacks from NATO backed rebels. Is that not a legit question to ask? Personally I would agree with Gadaffi posting troops in the city if his intention is to fight, it makes complete sense to hold onto the areas that still support you. However some claim it's just citizens, which I questioned. It seems asking questions like this is apparently gullible and unthinking to you, which I find strange. Someone gullible wouldn't question at all, which is what I'm doing while you ignore said questions.
Hey xBillehx, I saw an interview of a Black Libyan (in the beginning of the war) and he said that the majority of people are taught how to use weapons at school and later on their lives, so I wouldn't call them untrained.
Also don't forget that these people have Tribal heritage and therefore have a long history of `trained warriors` to defend their tribes. It impossible to compare the citizens of Libya specially the most tribal ones with how we in the west identify with the term "citizen"
Just some food for thought why its so hard for NATO and the rebel to defeat them.
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On September 13 2011 20:13 Saji wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 20:04 xBillehx wrote:On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you. You shouldn't be patronizing. I simply question every bit of news I hear out of Libya, including what I believe to be true. (more than I can say about others though, which is funny because you call me gullible and unthinking.) Nothing in what I quoted mentioned any troops were killing children for fun. It's an unfortunate side effect of fighting that there will be false casualties, so I wasn't even emphasizing on that point. However, I did question whether normal untrained civilians by themselves would be able to hold out attacks from NATO backed rebels. Is that not a legit question to ask? Personally I would agree with Gadaffi posting troops in the city if his intention is to fight, it makes complete sense to hold onto the areas that still support you. However some claim it's just citizens, which I questioned. It seems asking questions like this is apparently gullible and unthinking to you, which I find strange. Someone gullible wouldn't question at all, which is what I'm doing while you ignore said questions. Hey xBillehx, I saw an interview of a Black Libyan (in the beginning of the war) and he said that the majority of people are taught how to use weapons at school and later on their lives, so I wouldn't call them untrained. Also don't forget that these people have Tribal heritage and therefore have a long history of `trained warriors` to defend their tribes. It impossible to compare the citizens of Libya specially the most tribal ones with how we in the west identify with the term "citizen" Just some food for thought why its so hard for NATO and the rebel to defeat them.
Valid thoughts, I did not know this at all, thanks! I was under the impression that most of the people living there were untrained normal citizens just trying to live their lives before this whole thing started. Though taking this into consideration, wouldn't most of the rebels also be trained with weapons in school? I recall them being quite a ragtag group and losing badly before official outside training started happening. Is there any sort of history of this I can look up? For example, I know that South Korea has a mandatory military service for all men, so they'd know how to fight in case of a war. Is there such program in Libya?
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On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you.
If you check what the US army did in Iraq, you'd see that such things happen all the time in guerilla warfare. A US Sniper is told to defend a certain street, he does. A child crosses the street, he shoots. He then realizes it could've been a teenager but it's too late, and you never know.
And even though that man could be emphasizing the facts, it does not prove that he's wrong.
Now tell me, though: if Beni Walid fears the NATO bombers, why don't they cooperate with the rebels? "Defending" their territory is more likely to generate a mass slaughter and actually attracts NATO bombs like magnets.
But maybe they want to protect their families by going to heaven together after NATO coventrizes the city to pieces...?
I think YOU are being the gullible one here, as you're clearly defending one side of the fight. But I did have the same position a few months ago. Going through the mass of information made me realize we know very little of what's happening, though.
On September 13 2011 20:13 Saji wrote:
Hey xBillehx, I saw an interview of a Black Libyan (in the beginning of the war) and he said that the majority of people are taught how to use weapons at school and later on their lives, so I wouldn't call them untrained.
Oh, very interesting, so rebels only went to schools where they didn't learn how to shoot?
Is it me or is there a contradiction...?
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On September 13 2011 20:17 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 20:13 Saji wrote:On September 13 2011 20:04 xBillehx wrote:On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you. You shouldn't be patronizing. I simply question every bit of news I hear out of Libya, including what I believe to be true. (more than I can say about others though, which is funny because you call me gullible and unthinking.) Nothing in what I quoted mentioned any troops were killing children for fun. It's an unfortunate side effect of fighting that there will be false casualties, so I wasn't even emphasizing on that point. However, I did question whether normal untrained civilians by themselves would be able to hold out attacks from NATO backed rebels. Is that not a legit question to ask? Personally I would agree with Gadaffi posting troops in the city if his intention is to fight, it makes complete sense to hold onto the areas that still support you. However some claim it's just citizens, which I questioned. It seems asking questions like this is apparently gullible and unthinking to you, which I find strange. Someone gullible wouldn't question at all, which is what I'm doing while you ignore said questions. Hey xBillehx, I saw an interview of a Black Libyan (in the beginning of the war) and he said that the majority of people are taught how to use weapons at school and later on their lives, so I wouldn't call them untrained. Also don't forget that these people have Tribal heritage and therefore have a long history of `trained warriors` to defend their tribes. It impossible to compare the citizens of Libya specially the most tribal ones with how we in the west identify with the term "citizen" Just some food for thought why its so hard for NATO and the rebel to defeat them. Valid thoughts, I did not know this at all, thanks! I was under the impression that most of the people living there were untrained normal citizens just trying to live their lives before this whole thing started. Though taking this into consideration, wouldn't most of the rebels also be trained with weapons in school? I recall them being quite a ragtag group and losing badly before official outside training started happening. Is there any sort of history of this I can look up? For example, I know that South Korea has a mandatory military service for all men, so they'd know how to fight in case of a war. Is there such program in Libya?
Il try to look up the interview but if you look up the history of pre war Libya specially on the different tribes you will understand it better.
Another good one is to watch Lion of the Desert: Omar Mukhtar http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7643457725474129538 it`s a movie about how Libya fought against Italian occupation (its not a documentary so take it for what it is but it does tell the story of how the tribes are)
This movie tells the story of Omar Mukhtar, an Arab Muslim rebel who fought against the Italian conquest of Libya in WWI. It gives western viewers a glimpse into this little-known region and chapter of history, and exposes the savage means by which the conquering army attempted to subdue the natives. Written by Ibrahim Bloushy
Between two worlds wars, a struggle for freedom took place in the African desert. This movie is the historicaly accurate story about the Libyan resistance leader, Omar Mukhtar, who led the Libyan resistance against the Italian opressors from 1911-1931. The movie takes place during the reign of Mussolini
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081059/
Info on Libyan Tribes
http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya
http://lunis1.free.fr/spip.php?article129
More recent info on tribes
http://redstomp.org/forums/showthread.php?1109-Libya-s-Tribal-Dyanmics
I suggest always trying to investigate the history of that which you are interested in order to put it into context for yourself.
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On September 13 2011 20:29 Saji wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 20:17 xBillehx wrote:On September 13 2011 20:13 Saji wrote:On September 13 2011 20:04 xBillehx wrote:On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you. You shouldn't be patronizing. I simply question every bit of news I hear out of Libya, including what I believe to be true. (more than I can say about others though, which is funny because you call me gullible and unthinking.) Nothing in what I quoted mentioned any troops were killing children for fun. It's an unfortunate side effect of fighting that there will be false casualties, so I wasn't even emphasizing on that point. However, I did question whether normal untrained civilians by themselves would be able to hold out attacks from NATO backed rebels. Is that not a legit question to ask? Personally I would agree with Gadaffi posting troops in the city if his intention is to fight, it makes complete sense to hold onto the areas that still support you. However some claim it's just citizens, which I questioned. It seems asking questions like this is apparently gullible and unthinking to you, which I find strange. Someone gullible wouldn't question at all, which is what I'm doing while you ignore said questions. Hey xBillehx, I saw an interview of a Black Libyan (in the beginning of the war) and he said that the majority of people are taught how to use weapons at school and later on their lives, so I wouldn't call them untrained. Also don't forget that these people have Tribal heritage and therefore have a long history of `trained warriors` to defend their tribes. It impossible to compare the citizens of Libya specially the most tribal ones with how we in the west identify with the term "citizen" Just some food for thought why its so hard for NATO and the rebel to defeat them. Valid thoughts, I did not know this at all, thanks! I was under the impression that most of the people living there were untrained normal citizens just trying to live their lives before this whole thing started. Though taking this into consideration, wouldn't most of the rebels also be trained with weapons in school? I recall them being quite a ragtag group and losing badly before official outside training started happening. Is there any sort of history of this I can look up? For example, I know that South Korea has a mandatory military service for all men, so they'd know how to fight in case of a war. Is there such program in Libya? Il try to look up the interview but if you look up the history of pre war Libya specially on the different tribes you will understand it better. Another good one is to watch Lion of the Desert: Omar Mukhtar http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7643457725474129538 it`s a movie about how Libya fought against Italian occupation (its not a documentary so take it for what it is but it does tell the story of how the tribes are) Show nested quote +This movie tells the story of Omar Mukhtar, an Arab Muslim rebel who fought against the Italian conquest of Libya in WWI. It gives western viewers a glimpse into this little-known region and chapter of history, and exposes the savage means by which the conquering army attempted to subdue the natives. Written by Ibrahim Bloushy
Between two worlds wars, a struggle for freedom took place in the African desert. This movie is the historicaly accurate story about the Libyan resistance leader, Omar Mukhtar, who led the Libyan resistance against the Italian opressors from 1911-1931. The movie takes place during the reign of Mussolini http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081059/Info on Libyan Tribes http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libyahttp://lunis1.free.fr/spip.php?article129More recent info on tribes http://redstomp.org/forums/showthread.php?1109-Libya-s-Tribal-DyanmicsI suggest always trying to investigate the history of that which you are interested in order to put it into context for yourself. I know a little about old Libyan history and yes I've seen that film, but I didn't think that over the past 50 years people were being trained with weapons. I also figured those left over from previous wars would be a bit too old to effectively combat NATO backed rebels. And again, if this is the case that people were still being trained then how come the rebels were so bad off at the start? It's a bit questionable, which is why I wondered if there's a mandatory military program like South Korea, but I haven't found anything of the sort over the past half hour.
With that said I'm still inclined to believe there are troops in Bani Walid, because well that's what I would do in his position if I intended to fight. I don't think it is just citizens (trained or not) themselves, but I don't think that's necessarily the wrong thing to do either, so I wouldn't blame Gadaffi for stationing troops there.
Either way we've got one captured retired Gadaffi colonel saying there's no troops, and a family escaping the pro-Gadaffi city saying the complete opposite. My original inquiry was why does a retired Gadaffi colonel (i.e. he was on Gadaffi's side in the past) hold more weight than a man looking out for his family. (I.e. someone who puts his family above political will) I don't think we can fully 100% discredit either, so I think it's somewhere in the middle. There probably are citizens of the city standing up against the rebels, the same thing is happening in Sirte. But there are also probably Gadaffi soldiers (and possibly mercenaries?) stationed around the city with sniper rifles and artillery keeping the rebels at bay.
To add an update I guess, a few maps on Wikipedia show who holds where in Libya currently.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Libyan_Uprising.svg/616px-Libyan_Uprising.svg.png)
Brown = Cities under National Transitional Council control
Green = Cities under Muammar Gaddafi's control
Blue = Ongoing fighting
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Tripolitanian_Front.svg/800px-Tripolitanian_Front.svg.png)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Gulf_of_Sirt_Front.svg/800px-Gulf_of_Sirt_Front.svg.png)
Red = Rebel controlled
Green = Gadaffi controlled.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/LibyanRepublicRelations.svg/800px-LibyanRepublicRelations.svg.png)
Yellow = Libya
Dark Blue = Countries that have recognised the National Transitional Council as the sole legitimate representative of Libya
Light Blue = Countries that have permanent informal relations with the NTC but have not granted official recognition
Red = Countries that have said they will not recognise the NTC at present
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xBillehx
Either way we've got one captured retired Gadaffi colonel saying there's no troops, and a family escaping the pro-Gadaffi city saying the complete opposite. My original inquiry was why does a retired Gadaffi colonel (i.e. he was on Gadaffi's side in the past) hold more weight than a man looking out for his family. (I.e. someone who puts his family above political will) I don't think we can fully 100% discredit either, so I think it's somewhere in the middle. There probably are citizens of the city standing up against the rebels, the same thing is happening in Sirte. But there are also probably Gadaffi soldiers (and possibly mercenaries?) stationed around the city with sniper rifles and artillery keeping the rebels at bay.
Well lets just go by the logic of what they have been telling right.
So according to the civilian there are Soldiers with heavy arms stationed there right. If they have artillery and the rebels are close by would it not be weird if they haven't fired to rebels yet from long distance? (are there reports about artillery fire from out Bani Walid toward the rebels?)
Different point which i would like to address is that of the term given by the unreliable rebels to the black people in Libya which is: About the term "mercenaries" i don't like this term since the media has framed black Libyans and black immigrant as mercenaries.
Secondly, this is a thought experiment:
Imagine if you escape right, and the rebels get you and you want to live and protect your family, are you
(1) going to tell the truth and risk the chance of dying or (telling there are hardly any military or non makes it more difficult for NATO to legitimize bombings)
(2) tell a lie to back up the attackers point of view and survive (telling there are military targets there makes it easier to legitimize for NATO to bomb)
Thirdly
The captured colon on the other hand `has less to lose` since he is a military man so he will mostly likely be defiant. (i`m not saying he is going to tell the truth but he will probably not back up that which the rebels are saying).
Also you have to take inconsideration that NATO has been bombing innocent civilians, that act alone will make people who suffered the losses of dead family member fight the aggressors.
To put it simple a father or mother that has lost its children by NATO bombing rebel support will not accept NATO occupations or the rebel advancement, because they simple have nothing else to live for at that moment. Plus i take inconsideration the Tribes mentality for as much as i know about it and that mentality is about defending your home and your pride.
Also don`t forget the Military have families and these families live in cities probably at Sirte, Bani Walid etc they have a legitimate reason to fear the rebels for repercussion.
That`s my line of reasoning why i put a bit more weight on the fact that civilians are fighting against the rebels(on the colon comment).
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On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you.
Tired of obvious propaganda huh? It seems like you're the one spewing it out on regular basis the Western media didn't become more 'neutral' like you said you just found articles that fit your view of how it is and you twist it.
It's funny how you start quoting the 'western media' when in fact it is all propaganda according to you earlier.
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@Saji,
Are you a father? Children come first 99.9% of the time, and if there's a chance to escape vs stay in an area of fighting out of pride risking your children's lives you'll take escape every single time.
I'm aware that the rebels have falsely claimed Black Libyans as mercenaries, but that really doesn't mean there are 0 mercenaries at all, especially given the past of Gadaffi where he has been known to hire mercenaries before. I won't assert that they are in fact mercenaries though, that's why I said possibly, because it's impossible to confirm but still a possibility.
Yes, I have read reports of artillery fire from out Bani Walid toward the rebel position. In addition, there's also apparently radio stations within the city saying the fighters have struck a deal granting them women from Bani Walid, which causes more fear. But I've also read reports of even more families leaving the city, so apparently the fear isn't keeping some away. (You can see here a car with children in the back drives out of the city)
Again, I don't doubt one second that there are civilians standing against the rebels, whether it be fear or true conviction, but I do question some reports (the retired colonel) that say there is literally no military involvement in the city and all it is are innocent afraid civilians (with sniper rifles & artillery) against the murderous rebels. I do think there's military there, because again there's good reason for it on Gadaffi's side.
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On September 13 2011 21:33 Saji wrote:
Well lets just go by the logic of what they have been telling right.
So according to the civilian there are Soldiers with heavy arms stationed there right. If they have artillery and the rebels are close by would it not be weird if they haven't fired to rebels yet from long distance? (are there reports about artillery fire from out Bani Walid toward the rebels?)
Different point which i would like to address is that of the term given by the unreliable rebels to the black people in Libya which is: About the term "mercenaries" i don't like this term since the media has framed black Libyans and black immigrant as mercenaries.
Also you have to take inconsideration that NATO has been bombing innocent civilians, that act alone will make people who suffered the losses of dead family member fight the aggressors.
To put it simple a father or mother that has lost its children by NATO bombing rebel support will not accept NATO occupations or the rebel advancement, because they simple have nothing else to live for at that moment. Plus i take inconsideration the Tribes mentality for as much as i know about it and that mentality is about defending your home and your pride.
Also don`t forget the Military have families and these families live in cities probably at Sirte, Bani Walid etc they have a legitimate reason to fear the rebels for repercussion.
That`s my line of reasoning why i put a bit more weight on the fact that civilians are fighting against the rebels(on the colon comment).
I'd like to remind you once more that most of Gaddafi's arsenal dates back to the Cold War, and if the citizens themselves have their own weapons, it's probably also a bunch of rifles and old AK 47s. However, if there's any sort of military equipment, like technicals or such (not talking about artillery), it means the army is here, and seeing how the city is resisting, it is likely that the defenders do have what it takes in terms of training and equipment.
Also, mercenaries have been seen on both sides and this is quite logical seeing the countries that are south of Libya. It has nothing to do with the media mistakenly thinking black people are all mercenaries. Africa IS full of cheap mercenaries and a black man in a uniform is at least a soldier, not just a "Libyan immigrant". Libyans however seem to have crossed the line and I've seen many reports of black people persecuted for no reason.
And while you seem to portray NATO's action as fire coming from the sky everywhere in the country, I'd like to remind you that the people's reaction has a lot to do with rumours, the side they are on, and if they witnessed bombings or not. This isn't Vietnam, no one is carpetbombing the shit out of cities - well, Gaddafi did shell Misrata for a month. If my neighbour was bombed, I'd be pissed, but if it occurred too far away for me to see it, it wouldn't affect me that much.
The conclusions you draw stem from ONE starting point: Libyan people are a united group who is against the rebels. So let me remind you that no, as you said Libya is divided in many groups, and no, not everyone is against the rebels, and at least the East of Libya massively supports them.
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On September 13 2011 22:34 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 21:33 Saji wrote:
Well lets just go by the logic of what they have been telling right.
So according to the civilian there are Soldiers with heavy arms stationed there right. If they have artillery and the rebels are close by would it not be weird if they haven't fired to rebels yet from long distance? (are there reports about artillery fire from out Bani Walid toward the rebels?)
Different point which i would like to address is that of the term given by the unreliable rebels to the black people in Libya which is: About the term "mercenaries" i don't like this term since the media has framed black Libyans and black immigrant as mercenaries.
Also you have to take inconsideration that NATO has been bombing innocent civilians, that act alone will make people who suffered the losses of dead family member fight the aggressors.
To put it simple a father or mother that has lost its children by NATO bombing rebel support will not accept NATO occupations or the rebel advancement, because they simple have nothing else to live for at that moment. Plus i take inconsideration the Tribes mentality for as much as i know about it and that mentality is about defending your home and your pride.
Also don`t forget the Military have families and these families live in cities probably at Sirte, Bani Walid etc they have a legitimate reason to fear the rebels for repercussion.
That`s my line of reasoning why i put a bit more weight on the fact that civilians are fighting against the rebels(on the colon comment). I'd like to remind you once more that most of Gaddafi's arsenal dates back to the Cold War, and if the citizens themselves have their own weapons, it's probably also a bunch of rifles and old AK 47s. However, if there's any sort of military equipment, like technicals or such (not talking about artillery), it means the army is here, and seeing how the city is resisting, it is likely that the defenders do have what it takes in terms of training and equipment. Also, mercenaries have been seen on both sides and this is quite logical seeing the countries that are south of Libya. It has nothing to do with the media mistakenly thinking black people are all mercenaries. Africa IS full of cheap mercenaries and a black man in a uniform is at least a soldier, not just a "Libyan immigrant". Libyans however seem to have crossed the line and I've seen many reports of black people persecuted for no reason. And while you seem to portray NATO's action as fire coming from the sky everywhere in the country, I'd like to remind you that the people's reaction has a lot to do with rumours, the side they are on, and if they witnessed bombings or not. This isn't Vietnam, no one is carpetbombing the shit out of cities - well, Gaddafi did shell Misrata for a month. If my neighbour was bombed, I'd be pissed, but if it occurred too far away for me to see it, it wouldn't affect me that much. The conclusions you draw stem from ONE starting point: Libyan people are a united group who is against the rebels. So let me remind you that no, as you said Libya is divided in many groups, and no, not everyone is against the rebels, and at least the East of Libya massively supports them.
You are right, not all Libyans are against the rebel and you are right that the Libyans of the East support SOME parts of the rebels (i.e. there were protestations in Bengahzi against the NTC members).
The Rebels is a very vague term because there are so much separate groups fighting for the control of power money and resources. So I will refrain from using the term `Libyan people` and will try to be more specific which tribes are fighting against the rebels and NATO.
Now on the NATO part
NATO does not have a good track-record so there is no need to defend them. They have proven in the past to be deceitful. You do realise that when we talk about NATO we are actually talking about USA military forces, French, English and the other nations Military forces joining this war.
These Military (Western) forces have done nothing else than being at war for the last 20 years...... That`s not a very good track record and they have also been lying about the reasons they went to war.
About the bombing
some stats on NATO Bombings
Air Operations
Since the beginning of the NATO operation (31 March 2011, 06.00GMT) a total of 22,456 sorties, including
8,427 strike sorties*, have been conducted
http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_09/20110913_110913-oup-update.pdf
If you follow NATO`s own archive you will see they have been bombing non stop. to bring it in perspective that is in 6 month (180 days) NATO has strike sorties Libya 8.427 times
thats an average of 46 strike sorties per day (8.427 strike sorties /180 days)
I don't know what you call 46 strike sorties a day but i call that relentless bombing (specially if you know most part took only in Tripoli
More about NATO trustworthiness:
NATO still has not confirmed (AS NATO does not want to answers this question) if they are using Uranium Depleted weapons (which they have used in the past I.E IRAQ)
America is one of the few non-signatories to the UN Human Rights Sub-Commission's DU ban. For over two decades, it's contaminated vast areas in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Serbia/Kosovo, Libya and other nations struck. Moreover, the Pentagon regularly uses other illegal terror weapons, including experimental ones tested in real time.
http://www.rense.com/general94/nato.htm
Getting less publicity in the corporate media or from human-rights organizations is the U.S. use of depleted uranium weapons in Libya. The Pentagon’s denial of reports of U.S. use of DU weapons has been met with skepticism, especially considering U.S. use of the A-10 Tankbuster aircraft there. Kate Hudson, the general secretary of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, said, “We continue to seek a cast-iron guarantee that depleted uranium has not been used and will not be used in Libya. The U.S. has a long history of only admitting to deploying this radioactive material months or years after it has been used.” (Herald Scotland, April 3)
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/04/03-1
more info
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/the-casbah/nato-libya-dirty-bombs-depleted-uranium
Also read this Interview
http://www.lejdd.fr/International/Actualite/Anders-Fogh-Rasmussen-Je-suis-fier-de-ce-que-nous-Allies-avons-fait-Interview-379445/
Reflect those words of The Secretary General of NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen with what has happened up until now and the knowledge you have.
Then let me ask you this how can one still defend NATO i.e. the Western Military forces?
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Hey GeyZer/Saji, what happened to the whole "French and NATO special forces teams" using speedboats to attack Tripoli and slaughter innocent civilians? Is that still going on?
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On September 14 2011 01:02 Elegy wrote:
Hey GeyZer/Saji, what happened to the whole "French and NATO special forces teams" using speedboats to attack Tripoli and slaughter innocent civilians? Is that still going on?
What do you expect to happen to them?
Tripoli supports Gaddafi and citizens have arms distributed among them. End of September is the end of NATO mission. Taking the capital and the world recognize TNC was crucial.
The Libyan rebels could never take Tripoli. That's why external forces and terror and propaganda to demoralize tripolitanians.
I read from non western source that SAS has lost 21-34 soldiers and going home.
Center of Tripoli is under TNC control.
Benghazi and most of Cyrenaica is under islamists, not TNC control. TNC had to escape to a french ship.
There were events in Cyrenaica too, just not covered by western media...
Western troops are still there. There are many from Qatar. Also many islamist from all over the world.
Do not expect Libya to be a safe place in the years to come.
There is also report from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_E._Fauntroy
http://www.afro.com/sections/news/national/story.htm?storyid=72369
"...witnessing horrifying events in Libya's bloody civil war -- a war that Fauntroy claims is backed by European forces.
In an interview inside his Northwest D.C. home last week, the noted civil rights leader, told the Afro that he watched French and Danish troops storm small villages late at night beheading, maiming and killing rebels and loyalists to show them who was in control."
We need to be patient. The truth will come early or later. To much terrible things were done and it cannot be hidden forever.
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On September 13 2011 20:17 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 20:13 Saji wrote:On September 13 2011 20:04 xBillehx wrote:On September 13 2011 19:54 GeyzeR wrote:
xBillehx ,
It was ignored because it is an obvious lie and propaganda that I am already tired of.
"These forces are the ones who fled from Tripoli the last days of the fall of Tripoli and have blood on their hands."
When Gaddafi troops do not fight rebels, they start to kill civilians in the area that support Gaddafi.
"He said his nephew was killed by a sniper bullet on Sunday while standing near him."
Now they are in Bani Walid, killing children for fun.
Bani Walid are afraid of them and asking NATO for more bombs on the city.
NATO, rebels and Bani Walid citizens cannot win few hundreds of Gaddafi soldiers.
You are a very good citizen, xBillehx, gullible and unthinking. It is so nice and easy to rule people like you. You shouldn't be patronizing. I simply question every bit of news I hear out of Libya, including what I believe to be true. (more than I can say about others though, which is funny because you call me gullible and unthinking.) Nothing in what I quoted mentioned any troops were killing children for fun. It's an unfortunate side effect of fighting that there will be false casualties, so I wasn't even emphasizing on that point. However, I did question whether normal untrained civilians by themselves would be able to hold out attacks from NATO backed rebels. Is that not a legit question to ask? Personally I would agree with Gadaffi posting troops in the city if his intention is to fight, it makes complete sense to hold onto the areas that still support you. However some claim it's just citizens, which I questioned. It seems asking questions like this is apparently gullible and unthinking to you, which I find strange. Someone gullible wouldn't question at all, which is what I'm doing while you ignore said questions. Hey xBillehx, I saw an interview of a Black Libyan (in the beginning of the war) and he said that the majority of people are taught how to use weapons at school and later on their lives, so I wouldn't call them untrained. Also don't forget that these people have Tribal heritage and therefore have a long history of `trained warriors` to defend their tribes. It impossible to compare the citizens of Libya specially the most tribal ones with how we in the west identify with the term "citizen" Just some food for thought why its so hard for NATO and the rebel to defeat them. Valid thoughts, I did not know this at all, thanks! I was under the impression that most of the people living there were untrained normal citizens just trying to live their lives before this whole thing started. Though taking this into consideration, wouldn't most of the rebels also be trained with weapons in school? I recall them being quite a ragtag group and losing badly before official outside training started happening. Is there any sort of history of this I can look up? For example, I know that South Korea has a mandatory military service for all men, so they'd know how to fight in case of a war. Is there such program in Libya?
Don't underestimate military training and organization. It gives quite an advantage to the standing military both at the individual and group level.
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On September 14 2011 02:26 GeyzeR wrote:
In an interview inside his Northwest D.C. home last week, the noted civil rights leader, told the Afro that he watched French and Danish troops storm small villages late at night beheading, maiming and killing rebels and loyalists to show them who was in control."
Are you fully aware how crazy that notion is?
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EPT
