On August 29 2011 23:57 GeyzeR wrote: Saif: "We have no intention of killing them or taking revenge on these traitors who have betrayed our people. We say to them that they can run into Egypt quite safely because Libya no longer belongs to them. A lot of them have already left for Egypt."
"We have prevented as massacre in Benghazi".. .bullshit! Everyone who was afraid to be killed could leave the country. The situation drew a lot of international attention, Gaddafi wanted to remain "friends" with West so he would allow to leave everyone who wanted. I hope no one really believes that the entire city would be destroyed.
And now we have a massacre, thanks to NATO intervention.
BTW, I do not mind if Gaddafi have killed some throat cutting, decapitation lovers.
Did you not watch the speech where he proclaimed that they'd pretty much go door to door and kill everyone ("who's not loyal", which in this context is exactly everyone in Benghazi)? Because I sure did. Doesn't get much clearer than when it comes from the mans own lips.
Did you actually watch the Gaddafi speech? I did and he said no such thing. What he actually said was that they would go door to door, if the rebels laid down their weapons they would be forgiven, if they did not then they would be killed. Seems reasonable that the regime would kill armed rebels. Don't just regurgitate what you have heard, actually go watch the speech where Gaddafi talks about Benghazi.
On August 29 2011 23:57 GeyzeR wrote: Saif: "We have no intention of killing them or taking revenge on these traitors who have betrayed our people. We say to them that they can run into Egypt quite safely because Libya no longer belongs to them. A lot of them have already left for Egypt."
"We have prevented as massacre in Benghazi".. .bullshit! Everyone who was afraid to be killed could leave the country. The situation drew a lot of international attention, Gaddafi wanted to remain "friends" with West so he would allow to leave everyone who wanted. I hope no one really believes that the entire city would be destroyed.
And now we have a massacre, thanks to NATO intervention.
BTW, I do not mind if Gaddafi have killed some throat cutting, decapitation lovers.
Did you not watch the speech where he proclaimed that they'd pretty much go door to door and kill everyone ("who's not loyal", which in this context is exactly everyone in Benghazi)? Because I sure did. Doesn't get much clearer than when it comes from the mans own lips.
Did you actually watch the Gaddafj speech? I did and he said no such thing. What he actually said was that they would go door to door, if the rebels laid down their weapons they would be forgiven, if they did not then they would be killed. Seems reasonable that the regime would kill armed rebels. Don't just regurgitate what you have heard, actually go watch the speech where Gaddafi talks about Benghazi.
I watched the speech live. It's linked earlier in this thread.
On August 29 2011 23:57 GeyzeR wrote: Saif: "We have no intention of killing them or taking revenge on these traitors who have betrayed our people. We say to them that they can run into Egypt quite safely because Libya no longer belongs to them. A lot of them have already left for Egypt."
"We have prevented as massacre in Benghazi".. .bullshit! Everyone who was afraid to be killed could leave the country. The situation drew a lot of international attention, Gaddafi wanted to remain "friends" with West so he would allow to leave everyone who wanted. I hope no one really believes that the entire city would be destroyed.
And now we have a massacre, thanks to NATO intervention.
BTW, I do not mind if Gaddafi have killed some throat cutting, decapitation lovers.
Did you not watch the speech where he proclaimed that they'd pretty much go door to door and kill everyone ("who's not loyal", which in this context is exactly everyone in Benghazi)? Because I sure did. Doesn't get much clearer than when it comes from the mans own lips.
Did you actually watch the Gaddafj speech? I did and he said no such thing. What he actually said was that they would go door to door, if the rebels laid down their weapons they would be forgiven, if they did not then they would be killed. Seems reasonable that the regime would kill armed rebels. Don't just regurgitate what you have heard, actually go watch the speech where Gaddafi talks about Benghazi.
I watched the speech live. It's linked earlier in this thread.
Then where does he say he is going to massacre everyone? I watched it live a few months back and have rewatched it many times, still can't find where he says everyone is going to die.
The problem with these kinds of videos is that I have no real way of verifying anything that is claimed. Much like information that is spread by the traditional media.
Then again we really did see videos of a lot of people asking (peacfully) for Gadaffi to step down. When he decided to turn his weapons on these people it doesn't matter what he did before. At that moment I feel governments have the right to step up and prevent such a one-sides slaughter.
Ofcourse you can say that this also never happened or the images where manipulated. But if we are going to be that cynical what can we believe. It seems nihilism is the only answer once again.
It's certain Lybia was quite fine and dandy as far as Africa goes, and one of the best off places in that quite climatically hostile continent, but Qaddafi isn't a very nice guy, and that may be understating it. Also, I'm not like 95% of people in this thread who just heard of him or Lybia with the recent American invasion of the country, so it's not like I'm going with our side of the propaganda. That said, I'd prefer him to LIFG (who is more destined than not to take over if the revolution is successful), and the issue is that in that part of the world where people are not complacent nor easily deceived and are willing to fight for whatever reason, good or not (not to forget in the case of Lybia, a ridiculously strong Islamist presence in eastern Lybia that has been there for some decades), you need a tough government to keep order. It's an unfortunate side effect. If the people were quite complacent and easily deceived, give them 2 extremely similar political parties comprising of the nation's political elites, and it's a good 'republic'. It's a simple transition. However, for better or for worse, the people there are not that way.
On August 30 2011 09:52 DisneylandSC wrote: The problem with these kinds of videos is that I have no real way of verifying anything that is claimed. Much like information that is spread by the traditional media.
I searched for travelers and expats reports to understand it. People were indeed socially protected. What I did not like about Libya and Libyans is that they become very lazy with all these social benefits and high unemployment payments. There were 1,5-2 millions of foreign labor to do all the dirty and hard work or very skilled work. Now these are gone and Libyans have to do it themselves, like in a "normal" African country
Then again we really did see videos of a lot of people asking (peacfully) for Gadaffi to step down. When he decided to turn his weapons on these people it doesn't matter what he did before. At that moment I feel governments have the right to step up and prevent such a one-sides slaughter.
These people, radical islamist, are asking Gaddaffi to step down since a lot of time ago. And not realy peacefully. It is just this time they got western support. It was never proved that "he decided to turn his weapons on these people". The governments have no right to step in into an internal conflict. Especially without any investigations and basing only on some youtube videos
Ofcourse you can say that this also never happened or the images where manipulated. But if we are going to be that cynical what can we believe. It seems nihilism is the only answer once again.
Nothing and nobody we can believe in the contemporary world, full of lies! Neither side. Secretary General of NATO lied(no civilian killed), Bush lied, rebels and ICJ lied(sons are captured), William Hague, British Foreign Secretary lied (Gaddafi fled to Venezuella). How many confirmed lies do you need to at least doubt the "official" information?
You have to collect all the facts and make a conclusion yourself. You have to understand geopolitics. "Follow the money" works almost always.
A good point from geopolitical and economical point of view: War for Africa: 'Libya key to new US bases, cheap labor & resources'
Some may start to shout "RT cannot be trusted!" But you listen to Dan Glazebrook, not RT. RT is just give him an opportunity to be heart. I want media to bring me different points of view on the same situation. I wold like to see an open debate on the Libyan topic in the same studio. Till now I saw it only on RT. Can someone point me to any western media presenting not official point of view? Western mainstream media does not give opportunity for people like Dan Glazebrook. But let me decide what is truth and who can be trusted. I do not want any media to do it for me. I find Dan Glazebrook arguments very reasonable. It is really hard to believe in "protecting civilians"
On August 30 2011 11:17 GeyzeR wrote: A good point from geopolitical and economical point of view: War for Africa: 'Libya key to new US bases, cheap labor & resources'
look, forget about the rest for a moment and think this argument through, apart from the resource / oil part, does the rest make sense to you?
Libya isn't really the place you go to for cheap labor, they are a country with a population of 6 million people and are considered as having a slightly higher living standard than other african countries (mostly because of the oil industry).
A military base in Libya wouldn't give the US control over more space than they already have. The US has bases in Italy, Spain, Saudi Arabia and carrier fleets in the mediterranean and the red sea. So they basically have the possibility to intervene in most countries of north africa. It also wouldn't give them any further control of countries further south, because there is a huge desert in between.
If it really was only about cheap labor / resources and control over africa, they would have found a reason to intervene in the (short) civil war following the presidential election in oil-rich Nigeria last year.
Alright you ask whats wrong with the Lybian economy well I'll answer it now there is also some positive stuff I will add mind you it is from 2010 so before the civil war:
A short analysis: The Lybian economy is very dependant on oil which is quite bad actually you want a most balanced economy as possible. Little of the oil income flows to the poorer people. Lybia was trying to go away from the liberal economy. The agricultural sector is expanding in more products. GDP swings because of dependancy on oil. High GDP per capita compared to the rest of Africa but as already said little of it flows to the poorer people. 30% unemployment which is one of the worst in the whole of the world and 1/3 live below the poverty line.
the facts:
The Libyan economy depends primarily upon revenues from the oil sector, which contribute about 95% of export earnings, 25% of GDP, and 80% of government revenue.
Substantial revenues from the energy sector coupled with a small population give Libya one of the highest per capita GDPs in Africa, but little of this income flows down to the lower orders of society.
Libya faces a long road ahead in liberalizing the socialist-oriented economy, but initial steps - including applying for WTO membership, reducing some subsidies, and announcing plans for privatization - are laying the groundwork for a transition to a more market-based economy.
The non-oil manufacturing and construction sectors, which account for more than 20% of GDP, have expanded from processing mostly agricultural products to include the production of petrochemicals, iron, steel, and aluminum. Climatic conditions and poor soils severely limit agricultural output, and Libya imports about 75% of its food. Libya's primary agricultural water source remains the Great Manmade River Project, but significant resources are being invested in desalinization research to meet growing water demands.
GDP growth rate ( highly dependant on oil obviously which causes huge swings ) 4.2% (2010 est.) country comparison to the world: 89 -2.3% (2009 est.) 2.3% (2008 est.)
GDP - per capita (PPP): $14,000 (2010 est.) country comparison to the world: 84 $13,700 (2009 est.) $14,400 (2008 est.)
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 2.6% industry: 62.9% services: 34.6% (2010 est.)
Labor force - by occupation: agriculture: 17% industry: 23% services: 59% (2004 est.)
Unemployment rate: 30% (2004 est.) country comparison to the world: 176
Population below poverty line: NA note: About one-third of Libyans live at or below the national poverty line
Muammar Gaddafi loyalists are ambushed while on a reconnaissance mission, by Libya freedom fighters at a checkpoint.
This Al Jazeera Exclusive footage gives an inside view of the struggle as the fighters push towards Sirte, the last stronghold of Gaddafi.
About Gadaffi's family supposedly being in Algeria
7 hours 35 min ago - Libya
Mahmoud Shammam, Information Minister in Libyan rebel government:
"I cannot confirm it, but I can comment that, especially for Hannibal, if he fled to Algiers and the Algerian authorities allowed him to do that, we'll consider this as an agressive act against the Libyan people's wish. We're going to use all the means to get him back and try him, put him in a court and try him. This is our aim. We would give everybody of the Gaddafi family a fair trial and we can guarantee that. Other than that, we don't encourage other countries to harbour them, to harbour him [Muammar Gaddafi] or his family and we'll consider any act of that as an agresssion act against the wish of the Libyan people."
- Associated Press
6 hours 8 min ago - Libya
Libyan troops loyal to Muammar Gaddafi forced civilians to act as human shields, perching children on tanks to deter NATO attacks, human rights investigators said. It was part of a pattern of rapes, slayings, "disappearances" and other war crimes that they said they found.
Physicians for Human Rights was able to get a team of interviewers into the embattled city of Misrata from June 5-12, just after Libyan rebel forces expelled Gadhafi's loyalists.
Interviewing dozens of survivors of the two-month siege, the Boston-based PHR found widespread evidence of crimes against humanity and war crimes, including summary slayings, hostage-taking, rapes, beatings, and use of mosques, schools and marketplaces as weapons depots. - Associated Press
3 hours 31 min ago - Libya
As Libyans in Tripoli celebrate the defeat of Muammar Gaddafi, a young activist group is putting up a memorial wall to display the names and faces of fellow Libyans who have died.
While no one knows how many people were killed in the months-long battle for a free Libya, it is believed to be thousands. These activists want them all to be remembered.
Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught reports from Tripoli.
2 hours 49 min ago - Libya
Police in Tripoli are overcoming fears they would not be welcomed by Libya's new masters and are slowly returning to work, taking pains to distance themselves from ousted leader Muammar Gaddafi and win the public's trust.
Visitors to one police station step on a rug featuring Gaddafi's face and drivers roll over a poster of him at a checkpoint outside.
The district's policemen on Monday spent their first day in uniform since Gaddafi's overthrow. Senior officers had for days urged colleagues to return to work, through announcements at mosques and word of mouth.
The former Libyan leader had a formidable security apparatus that was notorious for its brutality.
The National Transitional Council, Libya's new governing body, is hoping to avoid the same kind of lawlessness seen after the fall of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, and want to co-opt Gaddafi-era policemen, not dismiss them. - Reuters
I have no doubt in my mind Libya is going to be worse under the Al Qaeda rebel leaders. They're sell outs willing to give themselves to foreigners...and its the same story in the US. Our politicians sell out our people when they purposefully create tax breaks to ship jobs overseas to get corporate lobbying monies. Traitors are amongst us, and the rebel leaders are GRADE A traitors..
105 Libyan children have gone missing from the orphanage in the rebel held city of Misrata. The mainstream media has been strangely silent on this issue.
On August 31 2011 10:19 Aurocaido wrote: 105 Libyan children have gone missing from the orphanage in the rebel held city of Misrata. The mainstream media has been strangely silent on this issue.
All you Nato defender explain to me why NATO wasn't willing to send a FACT finding team that is normally required by UN LAW? if they are doing such a great job these authorties have nothing to hide right? fact of the matter is that RULE of LAW has been undermined and it is now RULE of FORCE. (you guys should look up that NATO did'nt follow procedure entering this war).
Congressman Dennis Kucinich questions the role of Khalifa Haftar and the intelligence services in the Libyan conflict
Other news from Independed Journalist Lizzie Phelan.
In the last few hours Lizzie Phelan has contacted Global Civilians for Peace to announce she is now safely back in the UK but is heartbroken to have left Libya under the circumstances. She said a Western-backed genocide is taking place in Libya and there are now no longer any independent journalists in Libya covering the story. It is therefore vital that the people who support the campaign, increase their efforts in spreading the truth of the Libyan conflict as far and wide as possible. She expressed thanks to all those who were concerned for her safety but said it is of most importance to fight for truth and justice on behalf of the Libyan people.
More News (Dutch) about the lies of NATO and their involvement in the War in Libya. 26 aug 2011
The reporter (Jan Eikelboom) says that the NATO Rebels have had intensive military training by NATO and Qatari trainers (thus contradicting the statements of NATO in the involvement in this war). He also talks about Sirte being bombed heavily without raising the question on the justification of NATO's killing sprees against citizens who reject NATO's infiltration into Libya.
I have no doubt in my mind Libya is going to be worse under the Al Qaeda rebel leaders. They're sell outs willing to give themselves to foreigners...and its the same story in the US. Our politicians sell out our people when they purposefully create tax breaks to ship jobs overseas to get corporate lobbying monies. Traitors are amongst us, and the rebel leaders are GRADE A traitors..
Since no moderator is evidently keeping any of you people in check, I'll speak on behalf of my two dead cuisins who died fighting Ghadaffi
I have no doubt in my mind Libya is going to be worse under the Al Qaeda rebel leaders. They're sell outs willing to give themselves to foreigners...and its the same story in the US. Our politicians sell out our people when they purposefully create tax breaks to ship jobs overseas to get corporate lobbying monies. Traitors are amongst us, and the rebel leaders are GRADE A traitors..
Since no moderator is evidently keeping any of you people in check, I'll speak on behalf of my two dead cuisins who died fighting Ghadaffi
Fuck you.
whoa dude! just coz someone has view that differs from the view we are fed in the mainstream media does NOT give you the right to swear at them. if i had a report button i'd sure be using it right now...
I have no doubt in my mind Libya is going to be worse under the Al Qaeda rebel leaders. They're sell outs willing to give themselves to foreigners...and its the same story in the US. Our politicians sell out our people when they purposefully create tax breaks to ship jobs overseas to get corporate lobbying monies. Traitors are amongst us, and the rebel leaders are GRADE A traitors..
Since no moderator is evidently keeping any of you people in check, I'll speak on behalf of my two dead cuisins who died fighting Ghadaffi
Fuck you.
whoa dude! just coz someone has view that differs from the view we are fed in the mainstream media does NOT give you the right to swear at them. if i had a report button i'd sure be using it right now...
Hmm... So he's fed the news of his cousins deaths through mainstream media? This thread isn't filled with "alternative news", it's filled with conspiracy theories. There can also be only one truth and while the mainstream media may not always give a 100% accurate account it sure as hell is a lot more accurate than all the crap that's been coming out of RT in this thread. Not to mention all of the subjective journalist sources being linked to on various off-sites. Whenever you bake in your own (or your company's) opinion as fact as a journalist you're distorting reality. I'm not kidding when I say that I open this thread each day and shake my head in disbelief.
I have no doubt in my mind Libya is going to be worse under the Al Qaeda rebel leaders. They're sell outs willing to give themselves to foreigners...and its the same story in the US. Our politicians sell out our people when they purposefully create tax breaks to ship jobs overseas to get corporate lobbying monies. Traitors are amongst us, and the rebel leaders are GRADE A traitors..
Since no moderator is evidently keeping any of you people in check, I'll speak on behalf of my two dead cuisins who died fighting Ghadaffi
Fuck you.
whoa dude! just coz someone has view that differs from the view we are fed in the mainstream media does NOT give you the right to swear at them. if i had a report button i'd sure be using it right now...
Hmm... So he's fed the news of his cousins deaths through mainstream media? This thread isn't filled with "alternative news", it's filled with conspiracy theories. There can also be only one truth and while the mainstream media may not always give a 100% accurate account it sure as hell is a lot more accurate than all the crap that's been coming out of RT in this thread. Not to mention all of the subjective journalist sources being linked to on various off-sites. Whenever you bake in your own (or your company's) opinion as fact as a journalist you're distorting reality. I'm not kidding when I say that I open this thread each day and shake my head in disbelief.
one man's conspiracy theory is another man's fact, and western news media are no less biased than RT. and anyway saying 'fuck you' to someone is never justified on TL anyways this is off topic
EPT
