On September 01 2011 00:03 gzealot wrote: By the way, Saji, this Lizzie Phelan you speak so highly of..
She has been confronted with documentary proof of her being on Gaddafi's payroll. If she was unjustly accused, she should have made a big deal of it. Instead what does she do?
Removes all her Youtube rants, twitter and has shut down all her blogs. In an apparent "muzzling by the West", so say you.
Really now, Saji,.. why don't you fly over to Libya and take pictures of Gaddafi's victories?
Can you link me to the documentary proof of her being of Gaddafi's payroll?
I thought she was on Press.tv payroll which is from Iran
Look, Saji, you have to prove your sources are legit. That's how it works. It does not work the other way around (us having to disprove them, apparently by posting our own sources ... disproving or contradicting yours? As if legitimate news agencies somehow have a vested interest in vehemently trying to deny conspiracy nutcase "news reports" etc).
If you still don't understand what I said in my previous post then there's no hope at all for you. Please stop posting in this thread. If not for my sake, at least for all the dead libyans who gave their lives fighting for a better future.
I'd just like to end on this: "The Secretary General of NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
But I want to emphasize that we will continue this mission until we can guarantee that no more threats against civilians in Libya.
How can he say that when there is evidence that NATO has been bombing and terrorizing the Libyan people."
Not only is that standard PR talk that you're reading way too much in to (it's not that special of a quote), what you say afterwards is just plain out wrong. There's zero evidence of NATO terrorizing libyan civilians. Yes, there's evidence of civilian targets being hit, shit happens. It's not terrorism.
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories qualify as off-topic, no? Can we possibly bar these from the thread so we can get back on topic, or at least split the thread off into a separate "Libya Conspiracy Theories" topic? Thanks.
On September 01 2011 00:03 gzealot wrote: By the way, Saji, this Lizzie Phelan you speak so highly of..
She has been confronted with documentary proof of her being on Gaddafi's payroll. If she was unjustly accused, she should have made a big deal of it. Instead what does she do?
Removes all her Youtube rants, twitter and has shut down all her blogs. In an apparent "muzzling by the West", so say you.
Really now, Saji,.. why don't you fly over to Libya and take pictures of Gaddafi's victories?
Can you link me to the documentary proof of her being of Gaddafi's payroll?
I thought she was on Press.tv payroll which is from Iran
Yes being on Iran's payroll certainly makes her a trustworthy source!
some updates:
1 hour 36 min ago - Libya
Oil trading company Gunvor Group Ltd said on Wednesday it is sending a cargo of diesel fuel to the Libyan rebel stronghold of Benghazi for use in power generators.
Gunvor, which is registered in Cyprus and part-owned by Russian-Finnish businessman Gennady Timchenko, said it would supply the diesel to the rebel-controlled Arabian Gulf Oil Co, or Agoco.
The order is being fulfilled by its Geneva-based trading arm, Gunvor said.
A London-based spokesman for the company, Patrick d'Ancona, declined to say how much diesel was being shipped, from where and at what price.
In a statement, Gunvor cited an unidentified Agoco official saying the fuel would help prevent electricity blackouts.
Gunvor has grown beyond its Russian roots and now buys and sells petroleum products around the world.
Libya was a significant producer of oil until production largely came to a standstill with the outbreak of fighting between anti-government rebels and the regime of Muammar Gaddafi.
1 hour 17 min ago - Libya
About 500 Tuaregs hunted by Libyan rebels have entered Algeria in the last 24 hours, a government source said on Wednesday.
"About 500 Tuaregs were being pursued by the rebels. They fled Libyan territory and, for humanitarian reasons, we couldn't refuse them entry," an official, who did not want to be named, said.
Among them were women, children and casualties, the source added.
Tens of thousands of Tuaregs took refuge in Libya following rebellions that shook Mali and Niger in the 1990s and early 2000s, and again between 2006 and 2009.
The rebel movement say Libyan Tuaregs fought for toppled leader Muammar Gaddafi.
Algerian media reported that the country closed its borders with Libya after Gaddafi family members fled there on Saturday.
The daily Ennahar said in its online edition on Wednesday however that Algeria partially reopened its border near the Libyan town of Ghadames, a mainly Berber settlement about 600km southwest of Tripoli which is now under rebel control.
A group of 70 Tuaregs were authorised to enter the country on Tuesday afternoon, followed on Wednesday by the remainder, it said.
"The Algerian Red Cross has been tasked with dealing with the refugees and taking care of them," the government source told AFP.
23 min 11 sec ago - Libya
Russia will take part in a French-hosted "Friends of Libya" conference on Thursday and seek to uphold its interests in the North African nation, President Dmitry Medvedev's Africa envoy said on Wednesday.
"At the president's instruction, Russia will participate in the conference on Libya," Mikhail Margelov said in comments confirmed by his spokeswoman, Varvara Paal.
"Our country was one of the first to be invited to this forum."
Margelov will represent Russia at the conference in Paris, where members of a Western-led contact group on Libya and others will discuss support for the political and economic rebuilding of the war-torn state.
22 min 11 sec ago - Libya
Mauritania's president who also headed the African Union's Libya mediation panel will attend a meeting in Paris this week to discuss Libya's future without Muammar Gaddafi, an official said on Wednesday.
Mohamed Ould Abdel Aziz "leaves this Wednesday evening for Paris," ahead of the Thursday start of the "Friends of Libya" conference, a presidency source said.
The AU steadily criticised NATO's attacks on Gaddafi regime targets and created its own mediation team that unsuccessfully tried to negotiate a peaceful end the conflict.
Ould Abdel Aziz headed the high-level panel, which also included Presidents Denis Sassou Nguesso of Congo (Brazzaville), Amadou Toumani Toure of Mali, Jacob Zuma of South Africa and Yoweri Museveni of Uganda.
15 min 11 sec ago - Libya
CEO of Eni, the Italian energy company, has said his firm has set an “ambitious” target of October 15 for the resumption of natural gas flow from Libya to Italy via the Greenstream pipeline.
Paolo Scaroni told reporters on Wednesday in northern Italy that the date “perhaps is a bit ambitious”, especially since Eni personnel haven't yet been able to check the Libyan terminal point to verify the pipeline conditions after months of warfare in Libya.
Greenstream runs some 520km between Mellitah, Libya, and Sicily and can carry roughly 11 billion cubic metres of natural gas per year. It hasn't been operational since late February.
Scaroni said he is worried about getting the supply resumed quickly before winter. Italy also obtains gas from Tunisia and Russia via Ukraine.
Algerian government, after according exile to Libyan leader Colonel Gaddafi (Muammar Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi) are now facing "possibility of a massive terrorist attack", as stated by the Interior Ministry of that country. Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb has also threatened to massive terrorist attack, if Algerian government will not repatriate Muammar al-Gaddafi and his sons to face trial at the International Criminal Court.
Confirming Colonel Gaddafi's presence in Algerian, official sources said, "A top priority will be the protection of the Gaddafi family, especially as Libyan rebels may try and pursue them here. For this reason they are in a top security area of Algiers."
Meanwhile this Friday 18 people were killed when AQIM suicide bombers attacked the Cherchell military academy, 80 miles west of Algiers, protesting against Algeria's support for the Gaddafi regime. Libyan rebels are reportedly supplying arms and weapons to Islamic Maghreb in Algeria to either murder Gaddafi and members of his family, or even to stage a coup against the Algerian government, thus snatching Gaddafi and his family and send them back to Libya.
How can he say that when there is evidence that NATO has been bombing and terrorizing the Libyan people."
So you dismiss all the video footage circulating on the internet about NATO's Bombing Libya? (its all fake do you imply that?)
A Nation is being bombed there has been over 7k strike sorties!!!!!!. and you expect me to believe NATO has done absolutely nothing wrong?!?!?
Air Operations Since the beginning of the NATO operation (31 March 2011, 06.00GMT) a total of 20,980 sorties, including 7, 886 strike sorties*, have been conducted *Strike sorties are intended to identify and engage appropriate targets, but do not necessarily deploy munitions each time.
On September 01 2011 02:33 sunprince wrote: Dear Mods,
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories qualify as off-topic, no? Can we possibly bar these from the thread so we can get back on topic, or at least split the thread off into a separate "Libya Conspiracy Theories" topic? Thanks.
I'd like to second this. I've PM'ed a mod about it a few days ago and they're apparently in discussion with what to do with this thread. Hopefully something's done soon because it's really hard to gauge what's actually going on in Libya from this thread with all these random conspiracy theories and links to wordpress blogs as actual sources.
On September 01 2011 02:33 sunprince wrote: Dear Mods,
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories qualify as off-topic, no? Can we possibly bar these from the thread so we can get back on topic, or at least split the thread off into a separate "Libya Conspiracy Theories" topic? Thanks.
Dear sunprince from USA,
I qualify your words as an attack on freedom of speech(not guaranteed on this PRIVATE forum, but anyway). Maybe you dream of a world, where there is just 1 news agency that always tells truth but it looks like it still not the case and information from non mainstream media and from mainstream media from "non mainstream" countries has right to exist and expressed. Especially when the information from mainstream media is proved to be lie from time to time. It is unclear what do you call "conspiracy theory" in the topic of Libya. The fact that UN resolution is violated? or the fact that al-Qaeda asset is a military commander of rebels? Please explain. And check the forum rules.
Are you incapable of reading even the simplest of sentences? You try to tell me (and everyone else here) that NATO is engaging in terrorizing the libyan population - as if it's one of their operational goals - and that it is an established fact. I then tell you that you're wrong and that while civilian targets have been hit, there's no denying that, it does not equate to terrorism. Do you think the UK and the US intend to have the blue on blue action that sometimes happens in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Get a clue of what you're talking about or for the love of god stop posting.
On September 01 2011 02:33 sunprince wrote: Dear Mods,
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories qualify as off-topic, no? Can we possibly bar these from the thread so we can get back on topic, or at least split the thread off into a separate "Libya Conspiracy Theories" topic? Thanks.
Dear sunprince from USA,
I qualify your words as an attack on freedom of speech(not guaranteed on this PRIVATE forum, but anyway). Maybe you dream of a world, where there is just 1 news agency that always tells truth but it looks like it still not the case and information from non mainstream media and from mainstream media from "non mainstream" countries has right to exist and expressed. Especially when the information from mainstream media is proved to be lie from time to time. It is unclear what do you call "conspiracy theory" in the topic of Libya. The fact that UN resolution is violated? or the fact that al-Qaeda asset is a military commander of rebels? Please explain. And check the forum rules.
If there really was any proof that "the mainstream media" was lying "again and again" then I'd be right there with you on the bandwaggon. However, us source critical sane people realize that you guys are off the walls with your theories and your extremely uncredible sources.
As for your last two questions there; 1. The UN Resolution isn't being violated. If you think otherwise then you're poorly educated on the subject. But you can go ahead and try to convince me otherwise. 2. Noone's denying that Al Qaida (well noone that I know of) are part of the rebel forces. However unlike you guys we don't expect them to have a prominent role, mostly because there's nothing pointing to that being the case. If there's more updates at a later time then we'll discuss it then.
On September 01 2011 02:57 xBillehx wrote: it's really hard to gauge what's actually going on in Libya from this thread
Sirte is under heavy NATO bombardment. Rebels do not let people out, shoot on them (there was a video in the topic)
"Sons Saif al-Arab and Khamis: Reported killed" - dismissed by loyalists.
And generally a mess is going on. That why there is not many official news.
And guys, if you like to filter the news on Libya, why do you ask the mods to do it for you?? And if you want the news, there is Google news, type in Libya. I thought here we not only give some news, but discuss too.
On September 01 2011 03:02 HellRoxYa wrote: If there really was any proof that "the mainstream media" was lying "again and again" then I'd be right there with you on the bandwaggon. However, us source critical sane people realize that you guys are off the walls with your theories and your extremely uncredible sources.
As for your last two questions there; 1. The UN Resolution isn't being violated. If you think otherwise then you're poorly educated on the subject. But you can go ahead and try to convince me otherwise. 2. Noone's denying that Al Qaida (well noone that I know of) are part of the rebel forces. However unlike you guys we don't expect them to have a prominent role, mostly because there's nothing pointing to that being the case. If there's more updates at a later time then we'll discuss it then.
"Any proof", are you joking? Gaddafi fled(few times), sons captured or killed(few times), tripoli bombed (by Gaddafi, since it is OK to bomb it by NATO) -these are among the most obvious. Celebration on 22 August on the Green Square in the middle of fight for Tripoli raises a lot of questions, especially when I can see a street is simply painted on the wall. And all these staged photos and videos of rebels? People make fun of them in internet.
1. What has bombing of Tripoli to do with no fly zone and protecting civilians? OK, let me help you. "We must protect civilians from Gaddafi forces, and until there is Gaddafi force, we will destroy it. The only way to protect civilians from Gaddafi is to remove the regime. Till then the civilians are being killed and under thread." Generally speaking, the phrase "any necessary measures" means that it is possible to do everything. just add "to protect civilians" at the end. and "excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory"? Again, I can help you. "The special force is not occupation force, it is a special force"
But I am not satisfied with the answers. Remember, at the beginning every official said that changing the regime is not the goal of NATO operation. But to justify the NATO actions, it must be.
And what about that weapons embargo? Cannot help you this time.
2. Why you do not expect to have the rebels from islamistic east, led by al-Qaeda asset, to have a prominent role? What makes you think so? Younis, killed by al-Qaeda, and replaced by al-Qaeda, does not ring the bell? Sharia law, no?
Alright, first of all it was not just a no fly zone. That's why they're allowed to fly sorties and not just patrol air space. Secondly this was done in line with the UN charter. You going off on an unrelated tangent when I tell you that you're wrong doesn't help your cause.
As far as the latter part of your post I have no idea what you're talking about.
And as far as your enitre post goes, how about some sources to, say, all of your claims? Even if most of them seem to be based on misunderstandings.
On September 01 2011 03:12 GeyzeR wrote: And guys, if you like to filter the news on Libya, why do you ask the mods to do it for you?? And if you want the news, there is Google news, type in Libya. I thought here we not only give some news, but discuss too.
You're not engaging in an actual intellectual discussion. You're dismissing all evidence against your position as biased despite that this evidence typically comes from more credible and established sources while you provide links from the same questionable sources again and again and again.
For instance, the http://humanrightsinvestigations.org site is less than two months old, and doesn't contain ANY information for well-known abuses outside of Libya. Go ahead, try searching for Darfur or North Korea. Nothing. This is not a credible source.
Also, the http://globalciviliansforpeace.com site is about two months old (that's all that can be found in the archives). Also note that neither of these sites lists how they are sponsored. Let's have a little transparency, shall we?
On September 01 2011 02:33 sunprince wrote: Dear Mods,
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories qualify as off-topic, no? Can we possibly bar these from the thread so we can get back on topic, or at least split the thread off into a separate "Libya Conspiracy Theories" topic? Thanks.
Dear sunprince from USA,
I qualify your words as an attack on freedom of speech(not guaranteed on this PRIVATE forum, but anyway). Maybe you dream of a world, where there is just 1 news agency that always tells truth but it looks like it still not the case and information from non mainstream media and from mainstream media from "non mainstream" countries has right to exist and expressed. Especially when the information from mainstream media is proved to be lie from time to time. It is unclear what do you call "conspiracy theory" in the topic of Libya. The fact that UN resolution is violated? or the fact that al-Qaeda asset is a military commander of rebels? Please explain. And check the forum rules.
It's not an attack on free speech if it's off topic. That's like me crying that you're attacking my free speech if I try to discuss the best Wingnut happy hour deals.
Of course, yours is more related, but just saying it can't be construed in any way as an attack on free speech. Especially if you can go make your own topic on Libyan conspiracies. Just as I can make a blog about Wingnuts deals.
On September 01 2011 02:33 sunprince wrote: Dear Mods,
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories qualify as off-topic, no? Can we possibly bar these from the thread so we can get back on topic, or at least split the thread off into a separate "Libya Conspiracy Theories" topic? Thanks.
Dear sunprince from USA,
I qualify your words as an attack on freedom of speech(not guaranteed on this PRIVATE forum, but anyway). Maybe you dream of a world, where there is just 1 news agency that always tells truth but it looks like it still not the case and information from non mainstream media and from mainstream media from "non mainstream" countries has right to exist and expressed. Especially when the information from mainstream media is proved to be lie from time to time. It is unclear what do you call "conspiracy theory" in the topic of Libya. The fact that UN resolution is violated? or the fact that al-Qaeda asset is a military commander of rebels? Please explain. And check the forum rules.
It's not an attack on free speech if it's off topic. That's like me crying that you're attacking my free speech if I try to discuss the best Wingnut happy hour deals.
Of course, yours is more related, but just saying it can't be construed in any way as an attack on free speech. Especially if you can go make your own topic on Libyan conspiracies. Just as I can make a blog about Wingnuts deals.
On September 01 2011 02:33 sunprince wrote: Dear Mods,
Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories qualify as off-topic, no? Can we possibly bar these from the thread so we can get back on topic, or at least split the thread off into a separate "Libya Conspiracy Theories" topic? Thanks.
Dear sunprince from USA,
I qualify your words as an attack on freedom of speech(not guaranteed on this PRIVATE forum, but anyway). Maybe you dream of a world, where there is just 1 news agency that always tells truth but it looks like it still not the case and information from non mainstream media and from mainstream media from "non mainstream" countries has right to exist and expressed. Especially when the information from mainstream media is proved to be lie from time to time. It is unclear what do you call "conspiracy theory" in the topic of Libya. The fact that UN resolution is violated? or the fact that al-Qaeda asset is a military commander of rebels? Please explain. And check the forum rules.
It's not an attack on free speech if it's off topic. That's like me crying that you're attacking my free speech if I try to discuss the best Wingnut happy hour deals.
Of course, yours is more related, but just saying it can't be construed in any way as an attack on free speech. Especially if you can go make your own topic on Libyan conspiracies. Just as I can make a blog about Wingnuts deals.
the Lybian Conspiracies one was closed : d
I lied!!!!!!
On a different note, I'm not sure how well a topic on WingNuts would go either
Geyzer, you've contributed a lot in this thread, some of it weird, but we do have to take a stand against unsupported conspiracy theories. To this point, you have not sufficiently defended many of your claims and it's definitely crossing the border of what we would normally allow.
Yes, we want an open discussion but like Reedjr said, you're not actually addressing people's counterpoints, and you're not providing very strong evidence for your claims. If you can't do that, please keep the unsupported claims under wraps.
2 HellRoxYa, Why should I look for old links about already known fact, accepted officially? You are supposed to be updated since you participate in this topic. You wrote a post with no information in it, with no answers, for example, what part of UN resolution may allow bombing Tripoli. I even do not understand your position, your point of view. The only reason your write is to fight with those who are not agree with the official information and position. But I do not want to fight it. I post here to bring info from alternative sources and to discuss with the people who do not ask for links when I write "Younis" or "weapons embargo" or at least they are realy interested to learn.
Guys, we write a lot of not really useful posts now. I, at least, give not common information and opinions, and you, at the best, copy-paste from wide spread sources. Lets feed this topic with information and opinions, so anyone who read can make up his own.
Check "Independent", "Guardian" comments, for example. You, who stand for the official position, are minority now in internet. There are many "hate" comments. I am being very polite here in fact. But actually NATO brought death, grief, devastation, poverty, uncertainty to Libya. If Gaddafi were that bad dictator, people would find a way to overthrow him, especially having weapons and help provided by west. History has many examples. He did not have a strong army. Khamis brigade was just 40.000 and cannot resist to armed population. "Democracy" argument is not good anymore these days. Especially when it become "Sharia law democracy"
Just imagine rebels with banners "Jamahiriya NO, Sharia law YES" "Bigger share of our resources to western companies!" "We want to pay for medicine and education!" "No more free houses to married couples!" "Say no to 0.15$ petrol price!" etc. Funny? But it is actually what is gonna happen: no more socialism.
There were problems. For example, I do not like the fact thanks to high social support and payments, Libyans become very lazy. There were 2 millions foreign labor to do the jobs for them. And since they are gone, Libyans have to learn how to work for small money. Because now the money will go to oil companies, to the new government that was corrupt already under Gaddafi, this time having no fear of him, western companies that will come to rebuild the country. And it is still not clear how long will the civil war go...
Please name me at least one out of tens ex socialism countries, where ordinary people live now better under democracy. I can name you a lot where the life has become much worse. Oil rich Russia, Iraq as examples.
Gaddafi pays people to fight his propaganda war online. We saw Chinese sockpuppets on TL before. Now we are surely seeing Gaddafi sockpuppets here with Saji and GeyzeR. Their claims aren't even internally coherent.
We have people here that are probably relatively young, have no natural affinity with politics or history and they are given a propaganda package. This is why their responses are so poor. This is not what they usually would do for fun. They just jump on this opportunity. This explains why them arguing politics comes across so unnatural as they would never argue politics without pay. They don't know about Gaddafi's history on wars, terrorism and human rights. They also don't draw any connection with Syria, Bahrein or Saudi Arabia. Instead, they continuously follow the Gaddafi line about Al Qaeda and NATO.
If you support Gaddafi and you are Libyan, fine. If you support Gaddafi and fight his online propaganda war and you are from some other country, you are a mercenary. You people are fucking mercenaries and I hope Gaddafi pays you a lot because otherwise it's really a disgrace.
We haven't seen anything like this with Egypt, Iran, Tunesia etc. Maybe we saw a little tiny bit of it with Bahrein here on TL. The only other example is China. We know Gaddafi has online mercenaries and here they are! It's quite odd to see several of them post on TL.
News! Saif El Islam Gaddafi - 31.08.2011CNN Speech Summary: the fight is not over. There are 20.000 armed volunteers in Sirte. Jump to 14:40 for CNN summary. The message from Saadi Gaddafi saying that he is ready to surrender - another lie from NATO rebels. He is already made a statement to CNN about it.
Analysis: as you know, rebels are not in hurry to attack Sirte, giving an ultimatum till 3 September. It looks like Sirte is prepared and well defended indeed. I see no reason why the rebels would wait otherwise. NATO is bombing the city hard to weaken the defense, which is also reasonable. Rumors: berbers withdrew from Tripoli because of Algerian "volunteers" coming to berbers cities. This kind of info cannot be confirmed at this point in mainstream media of course.
Your claim is ridiculous. Try to count how many people do not support NATO rebels in internet forums, comments etc. Thousands! All paid by Gaddafi? I do not have to live in Libya to learn about Libya. And of course to use my brain and distinguish lie from truth. At least I give some reasons. You just play on emotions.
EPT
