On August 29 2011 02:11 GeyzeR wrote: Media topic again...
"Richard Engel reporting live from Tripoli's Green Square" in front of the blue screen with video over (0:52) Common guys, at least make it look not so obvious
Srsly, propaganda at its most obvious. There are so many 'facts' in that report which have already been de-bunked or greatly questioned that I can only believe its propaganda for NATO. Funny point, the video says at some point the NTC will have to establish roads, government, laws as a part of their new era. I find it funny that the NTC doesn't have to establish a Central Bank of Libya or establish oil companies because this was done months ago before there was any real indication that the rebels would even win despite NATO/American arms shipments.
The second of the two links also provides evidence for Central Bank of Libya which was created at the same time the oil exports were ramped up. What most people don't know is that Libya under Gadaffi had nationalized its banking and oil exports...and now under the rebels their oil is flowing directly out to foreign countries; HMMMMMM suspicious indeed. I'll say it, imperialism/colonialism or going into a weaker country and resource-enslaving its people to the benefit of the home country and to the disdain of the colonized country. *sigh, its blood for oil again...proving time and time again when the big money is at stake, both parties in America (D and R) will sell out their election anti-war/pro-peace promises.
On August 29 2011 02:36 GeyzeR wrote: It is interesting and useful to learn history. Paraguay under dictatorship, 1844—1870.
The highest living standards on the continent. Did not let foreign interests and money to come in. Did not take loans. It was self-sufficient. Did not let the elite to take control over the country. People loved "dictators" Then a war has happened (1866—1870). Citizens fought to the very end for their country, including children and women. 90% of men were killed. That social dictatorship experiment was over. The dictator was blamed for everything, of course. Now Paraguay has democracy and is one of the poorest country on the continent.
Sexually abused children are often fiercely loyal to their abusing parents.
On August 29 2011 02:36 GeyzeR wrote: It is interesting and useful to learn history. Paraguay under dictatorship, 1844—1870.
The highest living standards on the continent. Did not let foreign interests and money to come in. Did not take loans. It was self-sufficient. Did not let the elite to take control over the country. People loved "dictators" Then a war has happened (1866—1870). Citizens fought to the very end for their country, including children and women. 90% of men were killed. That social dictatorship experiment was over. The dictator was blamed for everything, of course. Now Paraguay has democracy and is one of the poorest country on the continent.
The issue isn't whether there is direct autocracy or not. It's an issue of how competent the administration is in building up the state and how well it is able to fend of foreign exploitation. Obviously, Paraguay lacks both of these things nowadays quite unfortunately.
Jesus Christ they are really not trying. MSN should not be reported more in this thread i think it has pretty much lost all credibility or are there people still believing in what they are telling?
Okay I'm fucking sick of this conspiracy theory bullshit. Gonna start posting some real news from down on the ground, expect some people to claim its fake but whatever, this thread is to keep people informed not fill their heads with crap propaganda.
:: Warning - video contains images of burnt bodies and skeletons
Sky's chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay has seen evidence in Tripoli of a mass killing which eyewitnesses have blamed on pro-Gaddafi forces.
He said he had counted as many as 53 executed bodies in a burnt-out warehouse.
Ramsay was shown the building where eyewitnesses who escaped the massacre said people were murdered by pro-Gaddafi forces on August 23 and 24.
He said he had also seen the bodies of two soldiers, with their hands tied behind their backs.
"Locals believe they refused to fire on the people being held inside the warehouse, and were then murdered," he said.
Salim lives nearby and heard shouting and gunfire at the farm building which he said was next door to a military base.
He said that as many as 150 civilians were killed but around ten people escaped.
Salim said the military had not allowed anyone to enter the building recently, but local residents investigated after the troops left.
He said he believed the massacre was carried out by pro-Gaddafi forces.
The discovery of the mass grave came as fears started to grow about the humanitarian situation in Libya.
There were also bodies found shot in a hospital earlier, no ideas on who did it. (this part might have been posted already)
Earlier, dozens of dead bodies were found at a hospital near Tripoli.
They were patients apparently abandoned in their beds at the Abu Salim building when fighting broke out last week.
Most of the victims were men and several had been shot, according to reports.
Witnesses described seeing the decomposing bodies piled up in the building.
It was unclear when the men died or who killed them, but reports said they had darker skin than most Libyans. Colonel Gaddafi has recruited fighters from sub-Saharan Africa
International Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell told Sky News that the reports from the hospital were "appalling".
"We will hold to account anyone, on either side, who commits atrocities," he said.
Mr Mitchell said that the International Criminal Court would be the correct place for dealing with those accused of war crimes.
I'm not going to translate all of it, you can do it yourselves using google translate but basically it says how those 400 virgins that are said to be gadafi's personal guards were raped and abused by gadaffi, his sons and all of their friends and libyan officials. Like, how stupid can some get to believe that?
Is it a coincidence how every time something happens in the interest of western nations we get hundreds of news each day to show me how bad gadaffi is, or how evil iran is?
"From 17.06 - 31.07.11, 5 Million Libyans Demonstrated so Far Against NATO and its Rebels attacks, Killing Thousands of Libyan Men, Women & Children, and Still Intent on Breaking Their Free Spirit and Stealing Their Wealth. The Libyan People Are the Only Legitimate People to Decide Who Represents Them and to Determine Their Own Future.. Category:"
"From 17.06 - 31.07.11, 5 Million Libyans Demonstrated so Far Against NATO and its Rebels attacks, Killing Thousands of Libyan Men, Women & Children, and Still Intent on Breaking Their Free Spirit and Stealing Their Wealth. The Libyan People Are the Only Legitimate People to Decide Who Represents Them and to Determine Their Own Future.. Category:"
Sorry Saji I beat you to that first one, and my video (on the site I linked to) has the locals speaking to what happened, not just a title for people to manipulate. Evidence that it was NATO vs what the locals say?
Libyan rebels moving in on Sirte from multiple directions. (east and west) They're going to attempt to attack all at once and clear out Gadaffi Loyalists there. Seems like it'll be the next area to pay attention to.
On August 27 2011 14:51 Nightfall.589 wrote: Please show us a single video of the MILLION Ghadaffi supporters that apparently took to the streets.
I've seen youtube videos taken by a civilian, driving his car past loyalist APCs, jeeps, troops... Yet for some reason, nobody in that crowd of a million people had a cell phone.
Oh, right, your source is Prvada. Do they even have a correspondent in Libya? Does he have access to a camera? Or, perhaps, far more likely, they are just making shit up - as they have since the October revolution.
You want a video showing a million people loyal to Gadaffi?
Well that was easy.
Edit: too easy. Here's another million person rally. This time in Al Ajaylat, Libya.
And how do we know that these videos weren't filmed 5 years ago? Has a single source, besides the Lybian government provided evidence that these actually happened, this year? That all these people are out there of their own free will? Does Pravda have their own photographs of them? No? Didn't think so.
All that they show is... A rally. And a voiceover. Oh, and a lot of military hardware that's sitting around, doing fuck all, instead of, you know, fighting rebels. Which is what it has been doing for the past four months. Something doesn't add up.
If they like him so much, why didn't all these people fight for him? How is it that a bunch of rebels with looted weapons manage to defeat both his army, and his supporters? Are his supporters by any chance also followers of Ghandi?
Think I can re-upload and re-name this video, and claim that yesterday there is a million person pro-communist rally in Russia? (Do I get bonus points if someone believes that these people are out there on their own free will?)
Critical thinking - something that quite a few people need to apply to the mountains of conspiracy theories. Before they post them.
Edit: fixed spelling error
To be quite honest, I don't think you spent much time analyzing just what you are asking me to do in order for us to have a conversation about Libya. For instance, I am confused about what you could possibly be asking me to do with your link to the Russian May Day Rally.
To open your eyes, and apply the same level of critical thinking that you and your friends try to level against the Mainstream Media (As if it were a monolithic entity) to the bullshit spewed by Pravda. As a Russian, I'm pretty sure I can safely say that that newspaper is a government mouthpiece.
. And btw what does Pravda have to do so much about the million person rally which occurred 2 months ago?
Everything. They claim the rally occurred 2 months ago. There is a video of a rally, with a lot of people.
What that video is lacking, is any evidence that it actually occurred 2 months ago, instead of 2 years ago. Neither you, nor Pravda have contemplated that question - instead, you take Ghadaffi's word at face value.
If Pravda is a legitimate news organisation, they aren't doing their job. They provide no independent verification of the claims made by the regime. (And they actually are based in a country with a Vast 'Mainstream' Media Conspiracy. Journalists in Russia have a habit of turning up dead, when they don't sing the party line.)
That was one source, and as I have said in an earlier post you no doubt read, that this stuff (these pro-Gadaffi rallies) are all over youtube. You simply haven't searched to see them. I expect no less that you are that much more inclined to know absolutely nothing about any remote possibility that America might be lying to war us again; like it happened in Iraq, like it has happened continuously throughout American history?
And have you considered the remote possibility that remote possibility that Ghadaffi is lying to us? Especially when his life is on the line? Don't you think some independent verification of his claims should be made? (Instead of copy and pasting them, and posting them as news?)
Has Pravda done so? All evidence points to "No."
Come on man, the big Iraq-War Lying scandal only happened less than ten years ago.
And the Bush administration caught a good amount of shit for it, both during, and after the invasion. Incidently, ridiculous conspiracy theories were not necessary to explain Iraq.
If all of those people were at the rally, then why aren't there a million people in the streets fighting the rebels in Tripoli right now? Think about what it takes for someone to take up arms and kill someone.
Not all that much, as it turns out,considering that the rebels are doing it pretty well.
Now task that to a civilian who can be speculated by the present evidence that at least a million civilians support Gadaffi by showing up to a rally - the kind of person who attended the million person rally was a civilian because Libya's military just isn't big or a primary focus of government expenditure; unlike in the NATO countries.
If he's such a pacifist, then why Ghadaffi was working on acquiring WMDs (He admitted to doing so, and destroyed his stockpiles, in the previous decade)?
Is that why in a country of six million people, he has a standing army of 50,000? That's one percent of the population - which is substantially more then that of most non-conscripting NATO countries.
Okay, add to the fact of the rather large population of civilians who attended the million person rally, all of the reports that black citizens of Libya and foreign blacks are being massacred, tortured, beheaded, and all sorts of f*ed up at the hands of the rebels.
I've no doubt that abuses happen. I've also no doubt that Ghadaffi's forces committed abuses. It's too early to tell what they were. The dust hasn't settled yet.
For all we know, the executed soldiers were executed by the loyalists, for refusing to fight. Or they may have been executed by rebels after surrendering. You must consider both possibilities, not one - and there's insufficient evidence to make that kind of call.
The rebels are downright scary.
And now your bias shows...
Again, show us solid evidence that supports your claim. Not hearsay. Not evidence that can be used to support either side of the story. Not isolated cases. Evidence of systematic ethnic cleansing. We're talking about mass grave type stuff, here.
Also, you asked how it could be that a rebel army that loots weapons can destroy the Libyan governments army? Well, they do have NATO bombing support, and Military weapons shipments from France and the USA so....tech advantage for sure. Pick between two armies: an American tech supplied army and a Libyan we-didn't-focus-on-our-military-because-we-don't-care-to-spend-as-much-as-you-guys-do-making-war tech supplied army - I'd pick the American every time.
The tech is not worth as much as you'd imagine, when you don't know how to use it. Air support is also near-useless during in-city fighting.
While we're on the subject, is Al Jezeera part of the Vast Western Media Conspiracy? Because they certainly don't share your views. Or do you define someone to belong to the "Vast Western Media Conspiracy," purely based on whether or not they parrot Ghadaffi?
"As soon as rebels arrived to Tripoli, Gaddafi loyalists started to kill the civilians, black among all." - are we supposed to believe this? We have already heard the news from local eyewitnesses about bombing of Tripoli and other cities. I find it interesting, that even after several lies from Al Jazeera and the Western media are exposed, they remain the only reliable source... Even after fake Green Square Hollywood style videos...
Good that some media (RT alot lately) is actually deep-interviewing activists in Libya instead of cherry picking what suits their own narrative.
Prove she was in Tripoli at all.
Or should we just take the unbiased, neutral source that is RT as fact?
See how this works?
Prove anyone that YOU source about the Libyan war was actually in Tripoli at all. See how that works?
I'm not saying RT isn't any more unbiased than any other station at times. However, on this issue they have stepped over a line by covering a side of the NATO narrative that isn't easily explainable by what has been shown in the western media. This is important in journalism as you will readily admit too. The source is there, if anyone doesn't think she was actually in Tripoli maybe they should just do a background check on her, or google her name, or follow her around everywhere she goes with a video camera; you get where I'm going? Trust her or don't but she's being interviewed to tell what she has seen and what she knows.
On August 29 2011 04:10 GeyzeR wrote: "As soon as rebels arrived to Tripoli, Gaddafi loyalists started to kill the civilians, black among all." - are we supposed to believe this?
How many have been killed? Do we know for sure that they were civilians? Are these systematic killings? You don't know enough to answer these questions. And from all I can gather, neither do your sources. Accusations are cheap. So are "Eyewitness" accounts from people who may not have ever been in Libya.
We have already heard the news from local eyewitnesses about bombing of Tripoli and other cities.
Yet not a single photograph of a bombed hospital, school... Or any other target that was allegedly illegally hit by NATO.
I find it interesting, that even after several lies from Al Jazeera and the Western media are exposed, they remain the only reliable source...
After several lies from Pravda are exposed, you maintain them as the only reliable source yourself.
On August 29 2011 04:10 GeyzeR wrote: "As soon as rebels arrived to Tripoli, Gaddafi loyalists started to kill the civilians, black among all." - are we supposed to believe this?
How many have been killed? Do we know for sure that they were civilians? Are these systematic killings? You don't know enough to answer these questions. And from all I can gather, neither do your sources. Accusations are cheap. So are "Eyewitness" accounts from people who may not have ever been in Libya.
More than 30 men believed to be fighters loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have been killed at a military encampment in central Tripoli and at least two were bound with plastic handcuffs, indicating they had been executed.
EPT
(0:52)
