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Libyan Uprising - Page 136

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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated.
perser84
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany399 Posts
August 25 2011 23:21 GMT
#2701
who says that the new regime will be a good one ?

Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 25 2011 23:26 GMT
#2702
All the governments involved in this war, >_< and oil companies, and some people that believe democracy and freedom can be bombed unto people
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6642 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 00:31:48
August 26 2011 00:30 GMT
#2703
On August 26 2011 08:26 Saji wrote:
All the governments involved in this war, >_< and oil companies, and some people that believe democracy and freedom can be bombed unto people

Governments supporting the forces fighting against the tyrant that's run the country for 42 years, when you bomb the people who oppose democracy and freedom then it's actually a really effective method.

Also you seem to be implying that the oil money (or at least their fair share) won't go to Libya.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 02:34:16
August 26 2011 02:33 GMT
#2704
That's a spectacularly naive position for someone with that nick.

You should know the drill by now. Public funds pay for military action, private profit via infrastructure projects, oil and security contracts. Democracy within narrow confines, anything you want unless you want no foriegn military bases or state owned oil... or anything that smells muslim.

All of it justified by us, the western educated, misusing words like "democracy" and "freedom" so very much that they are rendered more meaningless with each passing year. Add a dash of "Aren't we awesome for civilising these poor retches" and a pinch of "Anyone that disagrees simply doesn't know how good they have it" and soon they'll be flipping burgers and pounding keyboards in cubicles like the rest of us. Lets all give ourselves a pat on the back.

Drill... haha I made a funny.
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
August 26 2011 02:45 GMT
#2705
On August 26 2011 04:29 RvB wrote:
now they're talking about sending his frozen assets back to the council in Benghazi.


"The council?"

The "National Transitional Council" represents a faction of the people doing the fighting which is a small fraction of the libyan people. They are a faction of a fraction. The west is pretty much annointing them for power by promising them billions of dollars in frozen assets and in return the NTC is promising favorable contracts to the multinationals associated with countries that spent the cash bombing the gaddafi regime. Don't assume that "the council" are in any way representatives of the Lybian people.

Does noone engage in critical thinking anymore? Do we just repeat what we overhear on T.V. while we munch on cheerios?
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
gzealot
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Singapore238 Posts
August 26 2011 02:49 GMT
#2706
On August 26 2011 11:45 Dapper_Cad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2011 04:29 RvB wrote:
now they're talking about sending his frozen assets back to the council in Benghazi.


"The council?"

The "National Transitional Council" represents a faction of the people doing the fighting which is a small fraction of the libyan people. They are a faction of a fraction. The west is pretty much annointing them for power by promising them billions of dollars in frozen assets and in return the NTC is promising favorable contracts to the multinationals associated with countries that spent the cash bombing the gaddafi regime. Don't assume that "the council" are in any way representatives of the Lybian people.

Does noone engage in critical thinking anymore? Do we just repeat what we overhear on T.V. while we munch on cheerios?


you cant have the whole country on the decision making body. No decision will ever be reached. They are supposed to make a interim congress of sorts with people representing all states soon. We shall see.
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 03:00:35
August 26 2011 02:57 GMT
#2707
An interim congress of sorts sounds like a good start. The "National Transitional Council" is a group of gorilla fighters which we like with a name that sounds nice who we seem poised to give billions of dollars to.

On August 26 2011 11:49 gzealot wrote:
you cant have the whole country on the decision making body.


No, but you can have the whole country involved in the decision making process. AKA a functioning democracy. There is no way that that will be allowed to happen or it might reflect popular views, which may include things which our governments don't like, such as again, state owned oil or no foreign owned military bases.
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 05:03:52
August 26 2011 05:03 GMT
#2708
Does noone engage in critical thinking anymore? Do we just repeat what we overhear on T.V. while we munch on cheerios?


I don't know, but I bet men like Moammar Qaddafi find people like you to be useful.

(the way Lenin did)

Anyway, the NTC is a reasonable umbrella organization through which to institute a popular government that has a chance of ruling the country fairly and with stability.

There is no such other entity in Libya that has a chance to do this.

I don't think it's reasonable to say things like this:

The "National Transitional Council" represents a faction of the people doing the fighting which is a small fraction of the libyan people. They are a faction of a fraction. The west is pretty much annointing them for power by promising them billions of dollars in frozen assets and in return the NTC is promising favorable contracts to the multinationals associated with countries that spent the cash bombing the gaddafi regime. Don't assume that "the council" are in any way representatives of the Lybian people.


As it simply assumes that this non-Western organization that has allied with Western governments is a craven puppet, without any evidence for that.

The National Transitional Council was representative enough of the country to lead the way in fighting Qaddafi and so far has not tried to intimidate or shut out the western factions that had little connections to it. You're condemning a man while he is still a baby, we don't know what kind of man the baby NTC and the new baby Libya are going to grow into. The future of Libya is still taking form, you don't know precisely how the NTC is going to act.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
DarthXX
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia998 Posts
August 26 2011 05:48 GMT
#2709
On August 26 2011 14:03 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Show nested quote +
Does noone engage in critical thinking anymore? Do we just repeat what we overhear on T.V. while we munch on cheerios?


I don't know, but I bet men like Moammar Qaddafi find people like you to be useful.

(the way Lenin did)

Anyway, the NTC is a reasonable umbrella organization through which to institute a popular government that has a chance of ruling the country fairly and with stability.

There is no such other entity in Libya that has a chance to do this.

I don't think it's reasonable to say things like this:

Show nested quote +
The "National Transitional Council" represents a faction of the people doing the fighting which is a small fraction of the libyan people. They are a faction of a fraction. The west is pretty much annointing them for power by promising them billions of dollars in frozen assets and in return the NTC is promising favorable contracts to the multinationals associated with countries that spent the cash bombing the gaddafi regime. Don't assume that "the council" are in any way representatives of the Lybian people.


As it simply assumes that this non-Western organization that has allied with Western governments is a craven puppet, without any evidence for that.

The National Transitional Council was representative enough of the country to lead the way in fighting Qaddafi and so far has not tried to intimidate or shut out the western factions that had little connections to it. You're condemning a man while he is still a baby, we don't know what kind of man the baby NTC and the new baby Libya are going to grow into. The future of Libya is still taking form, you don't know precisely how the NTC is going to act.

Slow down there tiger, no need to hate because people have different opinions. Whether or not this new group will perform better than Qaddafi remains to be seen.

As for what to do with cravens, isn't it obvious? Send them to the WALL!
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 10:22:56
August 26 2011 09:43 GMT
#2710
Chemical frustration – the race to find Libyan stockpiles
Published: 26 August, 2011, 10:08

The US says it is monitoring sites in Libya known to contain stockpiles of chemical weapons. But while America is pledging to prevent the weapons from falling into the wrong hands, doubt arises over whether they would be any safer under NATO’s watch.


http://rt.com/news/libya-chemical-weapons-usa-189/




Eminent Africans Denounce War On Libya
Published: 24 August 2011

MORE than 140 eminent Africans leaders will sign an open letter in Rosebank, Johannesburg today to express their concerns over the all-out war raging in Libya in a bid to oust Colonel Muammar Gaddafi.

Amongst the issues raised in the open letter are the "misuse" of the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) to engage in "militarised diplomacy" and "abuse" of the UNSC Resolutions 1970 and 1973 to effect regime change in Libya.


http://allafrica.com/stories/201108241083.html

GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
August 26 2011 10:19 GMT
#2711
Young Libyan in London
by terms of this topic he is a "conspiracy theorist", but anyways I recommend to listen to him
I guess he know about Libya more than any of us here
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 26 2011 10:22 GMT
#2712
On August 26 2011 11:33 Dapper_Cad wrote:
That's a spectacularly naive position for someone with that nick.

You should know the drill by now. Public funds pay for military action, private profit via infrastructure projects, oil and security contracts. Democracy within narrow confines, anything you want unless you want no foriegn military bases or state owned oil... or anything that smells muslim.

All of it justified by us, the western educated, misusing words like "democracy" and "freedom" so very much that they are rendered more meaningless with each passing year. Add a dash of "Aren't we awesome for civilising these poor retches" and a pinch of "Anyone that disagrees simply doesn't know how good they have it" and soon they'll be flipping burgers and pounding keyboards in cubicles like the rest of us. Lets all give ourselves a pat on the back.

Drill... haha I made a funny.


This Article also deals large part of what you are talking about when you say " All of it justified by us, the western educated, misusing words like "democracy" and "freedom" so very much that they are rendered more meaningless with each passing year"

Killing the Truth: Western Mainstream Media Complicit in NATO
+ Show Spoiler +
Libya represents a new low in Western government war crimes – which is something of a disturbing record given the decades of war criminality by these governments.

In Libya, not only is there the criminal military assault on a sovereign country, the destruction of civilian infrastructure, the murder of women and children, and all the violation of international law that that entails – we now have the complete lobotomisation of language and normal meaning of words.

And in these crimes against law, humanity and morality, the Western mainstream media have played a disgraceful, vital role.

Over the past five months, as US, British, French and other NATO warplanes pounded Libya with 20,000 bombing raids, the world has in truth witnessed a concerted campaign of outright war crimes to bring down the government of Muammar Gaddafi. Thousands of civilians have been murdered in this blitzkrieg, which, it will be recalled, was orchestrated through the United Nations as an intervention to "protect civilians".

Whatever the grievances against Gaddafi may have been they cannot be compared with the destruction and slaughter that the NATO powers have inflicted.

How could such deformation of international law be achieved and made to appear normal, acceptable? It is in large part because the Western powers have deformed the normal meaning of language to go along with their criminal actions. This is propaganda taken to a new level where reasonable criticism is rendered nearly impossible because the framework of words has become unintelligible and therefore hardly answerable.

In previous imperialist interventions, for example Afghanistan and Iraq, Western powers at least used the word "war" to go along with their self-serving actions. In former Yugoslavia and Somalia, we at least heard the term "humanitarian war". Before that, we were told of Cold War, "war on communists, "war on drugs". Notwithstanding that these "wars" were but deceptive covers for imperialist control of resources.

However, in the case of Libya, the word "war" has been dropped altogether from all discourse about Western intervention. It’s called a "responsibility to protect civilians lives". This disarticulated language and meaning is repeated even though the factual truth of what is happening is an exact conformation to the word "war". And not only "war" but "criminal war". The murder of civilians by NATO warplanes is a war crime in the normal framework of fact, truth, reality, law and morality. But in the abnormal, hideous framework of Western imperialist propaganda it is called "protecting civilians" and "supporting democracy".

"This is war in all but name," notes Michel Chossudovsky. "These are war crimes in all but name. And the Western mainstream media are complicit in these war crimes. The Western media have made absurdities acceptable through their non-reporting and distortion of crimes by NATO powers. If people can be made to believe absurdities, then they can be made to accept atrocities."

Libya can be seen as the pinnacle of Orwellian function – meaning the nadir in normal reasoning. In its relentless one-eyed coverage of Libya, the Western media has served as the ministry of disinformation for NATO.

For five months, the bombardment of Libya has been presented in the mainstream media as "responsibility to protect civilians". The fact that NATO has gone well beyond even the fake terms of its UN mandate to act as an air force to pave the way for a minor insurrection is not reported; the fact of civilian deaths caused by NATO warplanes is not reported; the fact that NATO special forces have led insurgents on the ground has not been reported; the fact that the Western governments have collaborated with the despotic Arab regimes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar to dismantle a sovereign government and gain control of its huge oil reserves has not been reported

All the while, the Western mainstream media have collaborated with NATO powers to lobotomise truth, reality and normal language to conceal war crimes – the latest episode now being the "triumph in Tripoli".

By contrast, Global Research correspondents Mahdi Nazemroaya and Thierry Meyssan have endeavoured to report the facts and the truth of NATO’s war on Libya. They have backed up their reportage with video footage of the aftermath of bombing raids in which civilians have been targeted and killed. As Nazemroaya said recently: "This has been a campaign of terror by NATO."

Yet, ludicrously, the Western media describe the latest [NATO-led] marauding of Tripoli by anti-Gaddafi insurgents as "a triumph" – as opposed to the simple fact that is a consequence of five months of NATO-imposed terror.

Unlike the Western mainstream media, including CNN and BBC, Global Research has told the truth about NATO actions in Libya. Now the personal safety of our correspondents is at serious risk. Their lives have been threatened. We fear that this is just the beginning of a wider descent into bloody chaos that will befall Libya now that NATO has pushed its agenda of regime change to another notch.

Disturbingly, NATO’s illusion of "responsibility to protect" will be stretched to even further distortion in the coming months and years. As Libya’s state of Western-imposed anarchy looks set to transmogrify into yet another quagmire of Afghanistan and Iraqi proportions, the NATO powers are already preparing to invoke their criminal mandate to "protect" with more boots on the ground, the use of death squads and relentless manipulation of political proxies.

If Western publics seem confused and perplexed by their governments’ "wars without end" – the never-ending mayhem, body bags, dysfunctional administrations in far-off lands, terror blowback and budget-busting military costs – then one of the first things they should do is switch off the "ministry of disinformation". The Western media has shown itself now in Libya – more than ever – to be systematically complicit in an ongoing criminal war on the world by Western capitalist powers


Finian Cunningham is a Global Research Correspondent based in Belfast, Ireland.
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
August 26 2011 10:26 GMT
#2713
Emporio (2004)
Play "Emporio", a new family board game. The mission: help the USA to conquer the world.
Sorry only in Spanish, but I guess you can get the idea.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-26 10:46:37
August 26 2011 10:46 GMT
#2714
Libyan Rebels try to capture independed journalist from Voltaire
Published: 25 AUGUST 2011

Voltaire Network denounces the attempt by the "rebels" to arrest Thierry Meyssan

Voltaire Network, Thursday, 25 August 25, 2011, 3:25 p.m. - The journalists who had been trapped inside the hotel Rixos in Tripoli since Sunday were evacuated yesterday, 24 August 2011, at 5 p.m, by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). The four members of the Voltaire Network team - journalists Thierry Meyssan, Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, Mathieu Ozanon and Julien Teil - were among them.

However, after their release, the rebels tried to detain Thierry Meyssan, well known for his articles exposing the crimes of NATO. The ICRC intervened to prevent his arrest.

The journalists were taken to another hotel, where they are no longer under ICRC protection.

The journalists have thus far been unable to reach the ship chartered by the International Organization for Migration (IOM), which is supposed to have already docked in Tripoli.


http://www.voltairenet.org/Voltaire-Network-denounces-attempt
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
August 26 2011 10:57 GMT
#2715
On August 26 2011 19:46 Saji wrote:
Libyan Rebels try to capture independed journalist from Voltaire
Published: 25 AUGUST 2011

Show nested quote +
Voltaire Network denounces the attempt by the "rebels" to arrest Thierry Meyssan

Voltaire Network, Thursday, 25 August 25, 2011, 3:25 p.m. - The journalists who had been trapped inside the hotel Rixos in Tripoli since Sunday were evacuated yesterday, 24 August 2011, at 5 p.m, by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). The four members of the Voltaire Network team - journalists Thierry Meyssan, Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya, Mathieu Ozanon and Julien Teil - were among them.

However, after their release, the rebels tried to detain Thierry Meyssan, well known for his articles exposing the crimes of NATO. The ICRC intervened to prevent his arrest.

The journalists were taken to another hotel, where they are no longer under ICRC protection.

The journalists have thus far been unable to reach the ship chartered by the International Organization for Migration (IOM), which is supposed to have already docked in Tripoli.


http://www.voltairenet.org/Voltaire-Network-denounces-attempt

Do you still take that guy seriously? Why wasn't he killed by those CIA-assassins?
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
August 26 2011 10:57 GMT
#2716
On August 26 2011 19:19 GeyzeR wrote:
Young Libyan in London
by terms of this topic he is a "conspiracy theorist", but anyways I recommend to listen to him
I guess he know about Libya more than any of us here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mo8b3M4QBc


What is up with this notion that people have that because you have a certain skin colour or because you are born in a certain pile of dirt you come into this world with some inherent deep understanding of that part of the world.

This guy is perhaps even more clueless given to how close he is to the situation. One can hardly be able to think objectively when his uncle is getting killed by the rebels in fighting.

Would he just admit to the truth that his uncle was fighting to secure his own intrests and fighting against the will of the Libyan people to maintain the power of a dictator? No ofcourse not. Both the uncle would have lied to himself to make him sound like the hero and the nephew will lie to himself to believe that his uncle was fighting the good cause.

People like to make themselves out to be the good guys regardless of what side they are on. Nobody paints a picture of themselves as the bad guys despite these Gaddaffi loyalists being just that. They are invested in the regime and fighting to cling on to those little benefits that come with that.

It's short sighted self intrest against long term greater good.

Emporio (2004)
Play "Emporio", a new family board game. The mission: help the USA to conquer the world.
Sorry only in Spanish, but I guess you can get the idea


Does this still have anything to do with Libya or are you just going off on more anti-America rants?

Ooh but your evidence has certainly improved, we have gone from youtube comments and likes to...a boardgame.
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
August 26 2011 11:20 GMT
#2717
Yeah, there is attack on the independent journalists
Lizzie Phelan all accounts(facebook, twitter, mail) and sites are blocked


Franklin Lamb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Lamb) was shot in a leg by sniper, taken by NATO forces and now has become a pro rebel reporter. Cannot actually blame him, so much pressure on him.

Tripoli is now in an information blackout. No internet, no connection
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
August 26 2011 11:29 GMT
#2718
zalz,
I still cannot understand how one can come to the conclusion that the so called rebels represent "the will of the Libyan people"? Libya is complex with all these different tribes, barbers... How can you say that they have the same will. Even the rebels have just one thing in common - to remove Gaddafi and to free the path to power. Everyone want to sell oil and get profits.
What Gaddafi did is that he found a balance and united the country. No doubt he used force and violence during the process. So the NATO and rebels do. But is unclear if they can manage to stabilize and to improve the country like he did.

The boardgame was just a bit of political humor, relax.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
August 26 2011 11:43 GMT
#2719
Reported breakthroughs by rebels reap rewards
Published: 26 August

http://rt.com/news/rebels-getting-libyan-assets-183/

I am curious who the maker of the check of $500 million will be, but certainly it is clear that the recipient is [Abdel] Jalil,” he said. “You know, this is a guy who only two weeks ago has been linked to the murder of his own general and then a purge of his council, so he ends up in control of among other things the finance ministry of the National Transitional Council.”

Debar says that Libyan sovereign funds are now going to be handed over to a person who “you can’t really characterize as anything at this point but an attempted coupster.”
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
August 26 2011 11:50 GMT
#2720
On August 26 2011 20:20 GeyzeR wrote:
Franklin Lamb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Lamb) was shot in a leg by sniper, taken by NATO forces and now has become a pro rebel reporter. Cannot actually blame him, so much pressure on him.

Oh clearly, if he doesn't report what you want him to report, he lies. Maybe he was a CIA-agent all along, just waiting for this crucial moment to influence public opinion?
Or maybe he is just reasonable?


You don't need to be naive to be a rebel-supporter in this conflict, you are naive if you don't see both sides.
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