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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
However, in some case, we have to respect the different. Black-white, Asian-European, male-female, Mr. A- Mr. B. It is depend on each case. I believe the insurance company doesn't look at gender particularly or intentionally discriminate male. They just doing what they think it's best interest for their company. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:36 pedduck wrote: I would agree with OP if he walk in to a restaurant and get charged more than what female would. However, in some case, we have to respect the different. Black-white, Asian-European, male-female, Mr. A- Mr. B. It is depend on each case. I believe the insurance company doesn't look at gender particularly or intentionally discriminate male. They just doing what they think it's best interest for their company. Sure, but that doesn't make it non-discriminatory. If a restaurant decided to cater to racist customers by excluding [undesired race], that would still be illegal, even if they did it soley for the $$$. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:34 matjlav wrote: Why is this relevant? Why does it make discrimination okay? It's relevant for the same reason we don't let dogs drive, and if we did they'd have STUPID high insurance costs. Wanna know why? Because they're different. Edit: And people STILL bring up race. Holy fuck people cmon... there is no mental difference between peoples of different ethnic backgrounds. THERE IS A MENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES | ||
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news
892 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:36 pedduck wrote: I would agree with OP if he walk in to a restaurant and get charged more than what female would. However, in some case, we have to respect the different. Black-white, Asian-European, male-female, Mr. A- Mr. B. It is depend on each case. I believe the insurance company doesn't look at gender particularly or intentionally discriminate male. They just doing what they think it's best interest for their company. Here in America people strive to be treated equally no matter what is in the best interest of a company they are dealing with. That is why such inequality constitutes discrimination. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:41 Risen wrote: It's relevant for the same reason we don't let dogs drive, and if we did they'd have STUPID high insurance costs. Wanna know why? Because they're different. Edit: And people STILL bring up race. Holy fuck people cmon... there is no mental difference between peoples of different ethnic backgrounds. THERE IS A MENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES BELIEVE ME BECAUSE I TYPE IN BOLDFACE | ||
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testpat
United States565 Posts
On November 23 2010 13:07 Vanished131 wrote: That is a very good analogy! And it makes perfect sense.  I find it interesting that you accept, without any evidence, that women are likely to have higher loan default rates than men. I'm pretty sure its the other way around. | ||
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Norway
United States341 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:20 Risen wrote: Science agrees, you mean. Should I post statistics about how blacks are overrepresented in poor communities, and therefor much more likely to commit crimes? Should I post statistics of purely white communities in which the poor commit more crimes than the rich? Should I post statistics showing that more blacks are incarcerated for equal crimes than their white counterparts? Statistics are fun Edit: I've been reading too many business law books lately, forgive all prior, present, and future uses of therefor (in place of therefore) you're practically making my point for me. Statistics can show a lot - and incorrectly used they can used as discrimination. I think in the matter of if I should pay more for my car insurance than a woman it's discrimination - just as much as women getting less money doing the same work. I keep reading circular arguments - much to the same extent as 'that's just how it is' It might be how it is - but do you really believe it should be how it should be? | ||
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mIniAtURe
United States32 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:40 Severedevil wrote: Sure, but that doesn't make it non-discriminatory. If a restaurant decided to cater to racist customers by excluding [undesired race], that would still be illegal, even if they did it soley for the $$$. This is actually just untrue. If I wanted to make a restaurant that only served white people, I would be perfectly allowed to. It would, however, be illegal for me to make a restaurant that only hired white people. | ||
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news
892 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:41 Risen wrote: It's relevant for the same reason we don't let dogs drive, and if we did they'd have STUPID high insurance costs. Wanna know why? Because they're different. Edit: And people STILL bring up race. Holy fuck people cmon... there is no mental difference between peoples of different ethnic backgrounds. THERE IS A MENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES First of all, you are wrong. I'm not going to get into this, just read something relevant (online will do). Secondly, you are missing the point. Even if there is a "mental difference" no one should be discriminated on that basis because it is illegal. No one should be discriminated against whether it is based on race, religion, sexual preference or gender. On November 23 2010 14:59 Risen wrote: Aren't you just so clever. You come into a thread where there is serious discussion and derail with an idiotic post. Hope the hammer falls. I must disappoint you but you had nothing to do with a serious discussion in this thread. Your arguments are comical. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:47 Severedevil wrote: BELIEVE ME BECAUSE I TYPE IN BOLDFACE Aren't you just so clever. You come into a thread where there is serious discussion and derail with an idiotic post. Hope the hammer falls. On November 23 2010 14:49 Norway wrote: you're practically making my point for me. Statistics can show a lot - and incorrectly used they can used as discrimination. I think in the matter of if I should pay more for my car insurance than a woman it's discrimination - just as much as women getting less money doing the same work. I keep reading circular arguments - much to the same extent as 'that's just how it is' It might be how it is - but do you really believe it should be how it should be? I didn't prove your point at all. You tried to make me prove your point by making me concede that statistics can be warped and women maybe aren't as reliable drivers as men and their rates shouldn't be different. Unfortunately, in my previous posts I have already stated that there is a concrete difference between men and women that is lacking between blacks and whites. The point I will agree with on, and I had not considered was made by FuRong. It isn't that his example may or may not be false, that wasn't the point. The point was to show that, were such a thing to be true, would banks be justified in giving different rates to different sexes. I would argue that they would be totally justified in doing such. Arguments like these usually come down to personal opinion on whether we should hold people all to a singular standard, or whether we should hold people to different standards based upon the means of their group. I happen to be in the latter group, OP is in the former. Note: I am in the latter group ONLY when it comes to scientifically proven differences, i.e. the difference between a woman and a man. If you place stock in a "social science" that's on you (Clearly I do not) | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:41 Risen wrote: It's relevant for the same reason we don't let dogs drive, and if we did they'd have STUPID high insurance costs. Wanna know why? Because they're different. Men and women are not nearly as different as dogs are. It is inconceivable that any dog could be as good at driving as any non-disabled human. You can't say the same for men vs. women. On November 23 2010 14:41 Risen wrote: Edit: And people STILL bring up race. Holy fuck people cmon... there is no mental difference between peoples of different ethnic backgrounds. THERE IS A MENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES If there is a statistical difference between two demographic groups with respect to car accident rates, why do your unfounded conjectures on the roots of the difference matter? It's all just statistics and business, right? | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On November 23 2010 13:43 matjlav wrote: Hell, if they charged women more, imagine the outrage. It's a ridiculous double standard and I really think that our society needs to start saying "Discrimination is wrong," rather than "Discrimination is wrong but only when it is against a group of people that we feel bad for discriminating against." Women (below age 40 or 45) are a higher health risk and get charged more for individual health insurance. There is intense pressure to change this... in fact I think the US reform bill made it illegal for insurers to charge more for women than for men whenever the bill kicks in. So sure, there are points for and against using gender as a factor in determining premiums. What's ridiculous is, as you point out, that there's only opposition to it being used in one way, but not in the other. Either ban the practice or allow it. Logical consistency is always good | ||
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BruceLee6783
United States196 Posts
HOWEVER, if you're one of those types that goes around spouting off "Life isn't fair, get over it", then why not realize that life COULD be more fair if people didn't just shrug their shoulders at issues like this and let these things slide. Nothing pisses me off more than those types of people, and I certainly don't feel like it's fair that I should have to pay for the mistakes of my male peers when I myself have never driven like a maniac. Press down harder on the people who give the males a bad name by charging them even more to recoop any lost income not earned by unfairly charging innocent male drivers. Wanna know where to put your statistics? Bend over, and I'll show you where. | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On November 23 2010 15:00 Signet wrote: Women (below age 40 or 45) are a higher health risk and get charged more for individual health insurance. There is intense pressure to change this... in fact I think the US reform bill made it illegal for insurers to charge more for women than for men whenever the bill kicks in. That's interesting, and I never realized that. I assume that doesn't generate as much controversy as the car insurance thing would, because charging women more for health insurance doesn't carry a connotation of "women are stupid." | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:58 News wrote: First of all, you are wrong. I'm not going to get into this, just read something relevant (online will do). Secondly, you are missing the point. Even if there is a "mental difference" no one should be discriminated on that basis because it is illegal. No one should be discriminated against whether it is based on race, religion, sexual preference or gender. Your last point on gender is debatable. Your first point, the difference in the biological growth of various ethnic groups is debatable as well, as most scientific studies look at data gathered from groups in different areas, not in a controlled test group (because this would be unethical) So again, please stop trying to pass off your social "science" statistics concerning different races. | ||
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MadVillain
United States402 Posts
This "sexism" isn't sexism in the general sense of the word, their is no moral defect causing insurance companies to construe a misguided hate towards women. Its all based on facts and facts that have proven to save them money. Insurance companies are chasing a high profit margin, this actually has nothing to do with hate towards any sex, race or whatever. Now you ask: Why don't they ask your race, religion, etc? They don't because there would be a very negative backlash from the rest of society, and there would be endless lawsuits from overzealous civil rights groups. This apparent "discrimination" by insurance companies is a fact of life and you just need to live with it. Please don't mistake it as you getting cheated because of who you are. Its funny seeing all the people talk about how "statistics can show anything blah blah." Yes you're right they can give a warped view of what's happening but were talking about multi-billion dollar entities, they don't just whip up a few google-searched statistics reports, they have entire workforces constantly optimizing how they do business. See Actuarial sience | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2435 Posts
However, sexes work the same way. Science can go ahead and demonstrate key "differences" between the sexes, but it's a lot harder to prove that these aren't a result of biased upbringings. The key difference between men and women is hormone levels, which is why you can still have masculine women and feminine men. I'm sure there are hormonal differences observed between races, too. Again, upbringing can affect hormone levels. People who are suggesting that race is completely independent and gender is obviously dependent are not really thinking about this deeply enough, of that I am sure. Just take the example of that lacking gene which is far more common in Asian people (possibly only women? I forget) when it comes to the metabolising of alcohol, causing flushing of the face and other symptoms. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:59 matjlav wrote: Men and women are not nearly as different as dogs are. It is inconceivable that any dog could be as good at driving as any non-disabled human. You can't say the same for men vs. women. If there is a statistical difference between two demographic groups with respect to car accident rates, why do your unfounded conjectures on the roots of the difference matter? It's all just statistics and business, right? People from the inner city are already charged more for car insurance than those in the burbs, so I'm perfectly fine with two different demographic groups being charged different amounts. Don't have a clue what you're talking about. Edit: And just like the points made earlier by others, I'm using hyperbole to make a point. | ||
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matjlav
Germany2435 Posts
On November 23 2010 15:06 MadVillain wrote: Now you ask: Why don't they ask your race, religion, etc? They don't because there would be a very negative backlash from the rest of society, and there would be endless lawsuits from overzealous civil rights groups. And this is the problem. Our society is at a point where one direction of discrimination is considered okay or even commendable (for example, the fact that black and hispanic students are ridiculously favored for college admissions and scholarships). On November 23 2010 15:06 MadVillain wrote: This apparent "discrimination" by insurance companies is a fact of life and you just need to live with it. Lol. "Life isn't fair" is never a good justification for anything. Ever. On November 23 2010 15:06 MadVillain wrote: Please don't mistake it as you getting cheated because of who you are. ummm... but, it is me getting cheated because of who I am. That's more on the fact side of the spectrum. | ||
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