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How do foreigners view US politics? - Page 20

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hypercube
Profile Joined April 2010
Hungary2735 Posts
November 04 2010 11:57 GMT
#381
For all the criticism about money and the two party system, the US has more participatory elements in their system than most European democracies. Representatives are only elected for 2 years (it's 4 in most European countries). Referendums are fairly rare in most of Europe but common in the US. The range of elected officials is much wider. And finally, while the first past the post system does restrict choice the primary system gives almost any political movement a shot.

In the end US policies are what they are not because business buys politicians but because it's what the people who are most active in the political process want.
"Sending people in rockets to other planets is a waste of money better spent on sending rockets into people on this planet."
Loanshark
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
China3094 Posts
November 04 2010 11:57 GMT
#382
I cannot comment on the video because I would need a proxy or VPN to watch it, courtesy of my government.
No dough, no go. And no mercy.
kar1181
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom515 Posts
November 04 2010 12:04 GMT
#383
On November 04 2010 20:56 vetinari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2010 19:06 kar1181 wrote:
Also sniffy something to point out, Australia has a VERY different culture when it comes to public sector services compared to the US and actually even the UK now.

That's because Australia has not experienced ANYTHING like the mass migrations the US and UK have. That population pressure really does affect people's perceptions of what the state should and shouldn't do for the public.

It's sad in a way. But when I think about the health service we have in Australia vs what we have in the UK, I almost feel it would be better for a more private system here because the taxes to support the system for everyone is so high and it is borne by the middle classes mostly. It reaches a point when they would be better off in terms of service and cost on private health.

In Australia population demographics haven't yet (although this is changing) haven't yet reached that breaking point like it has in some parts of Europe, and I imagine, the US.


No.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_grow&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:GBR:AUS:USA&hl=en&dl=en


That's in percentage terms. I'm talking in absolute terms, Australia hasn't had 5 million rock up to its shores in the past 5 years which is what has happened in the UK.
clementdudu
Profile Joined September 2010
France819 Posts
November 04 2010 12:11 GMT
#384
On November 04 2010 20:26 Velr wrote:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

I once did this test in some other, german dominated, forum.


Pure comedy gold for europeans... Nearly everyone was between -5 and -10", not a single person was on the right side, even some pretty right/conservative guys when it comes to a more "european" scale.


And you wonder why we bash on the Republicans? It's just a totally diffrent worldview...


After answering genuinly every question(that means even though i'm far left,answering what you would say right-winged sometimes)........-7 -7>.<
TMStarcraft
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia686 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-04 12:21:06
November 04 2010 12:18 GMT
#385
On November 04 2010 19:59 Velr wrote:
Things i think are stupid:

The Winner takes it all system... i don't even like coalition systems which most countries run. I think every vote should count for something, you shouldn't just lose if you picked the "wrong" team.


The problem is, no voting system can ever truly be fair. Link.

On topic, all I really know about American politics is what I hear from Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, which turns out to be not all that much. Entertaining as hell though.


On November 04 2010 20:57 Loanshark wrote:
I cannot comment on the video because I would need a proxy or VPN to watch it, courtesy of my government.

Or an amazon kindle.
||
kar1181
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom515 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-04 12:26:02
November 04 2010 12:24 GMT
#386
I bet if you got people that consider themselves conservatives, a lot of them would end up on the liberal side of the spectrum. It's part of the problem with the labels and stereotypes associated with liberal/conservative politics.

I mean I have some views which are on the extremes of both, and many which straddle the middle. But it seems if you are 'right wing' you must hate environmentalism, must believe in god, and think any sort of welfare is evil. And vice versa, if you're a lefty, you must not believe in god, you must believe high taxes and a large state support network is a good idea and all large companies are inherently evil.

Clearly this is stupid. Yet the media seems to perpetuate this polarised view of politics.

Anyway I did that orientation test mine was
Economic Left/Right: -3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.44

So interesting
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
November 04 2010 12:34 GMT
#387
Most people over here doesn't have a clue about american politics. Those who do generally are disguisted with the painfully obvious lobbyism. This is true among the people I speak with about american politics though.

Policy differs a lot across the pond but the big thing that swedes have a hard time understanding is that lobbyism seems ok to the people of the united states. Almost like it's a perk of the deregulated free market system there to reward people for rising to the level of elected office. Everyone knows it's going on. Only the most hardcore bible thumping ignorant people would ever deny that it exists. Because even the media doesn't try to deny it. Most politicians try to hide it and it's obviously not money straight in the pocket from the corporations. It grosses me out though when you see that top politicians gets huge deals with big corporations after their time in office is done.

I mean you have politicians that try to argue that extending potentially devastating tax cuts for the richest people in the country will somehow benefit the economy. You just need to look at the history to see how stupid that argument is. But top level politicians push that idea so hard right now and the reason is very obvious. They want that million dollar pension and they're fucking the worlds economy up in the meantime.

Politics is a dirty buisness and it's never going to be totally fair. But the US dissapoints me as a prodominant western nation that is supposed to lead the way in terms of humanity and choice / free speech and you have a situation where politicians exist only to further their own careers while people can't even get their healthcare covered.
Bungle
Profile Joined November 2002
Canada59 Posts
November 04 2010 12:37 GMT
#388
Your liberals seem to lie more right of center.
=]
Vasili
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia125 Posts
November 04 2010 12:44 GMT
#389
Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.49

P
vetinari
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia602 Posts
November 04 2010 12:46 GMT
#390
On November 04 2010 21:04 kar1181 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2010 20:56 vetinari wrote:
On November 04 2010 19:06 kar1181 wrote:
Also sniffy something to point out, Australia has a VERY different culture when it comes to public sector services compared to the US and actually even the UK now.

That's because Australia has not experienced ANYTHING like the mass migrations the US and UK have. That population pressure really does affect people's perceptions of what the state should and shouldn't do for the public.

It's sad in a way. But when I think about the health service we have in Australia vs what we have in the UK, I almost feel it would be better for a more private system here because the taxes to support the system for everyone is so high and it is borne by the middle classes mostly. It reaches a point when they would be better off in terms of service and cost on private health.

In Australia population demographics haven't yet (although this is changing) haven't yet reached that breaking point like it has in some parts of Europe, and I imagine, the US.


No.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_grow&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:GBR:AUS:USA&hl=en&dl=en


That's in percentage terms. I'm talking in absolute terms, Australia hasn't had 5 million rock up to its shores in the past 5 years which is what has happened in the UK.


uh, uk population 2000: 58,892,514
uk population 2008: 61,414,062
uk pop growth = 2.52million.

aus pop 2000: 1915300
aus pop 2008: 21413800
absolute growth 8 years = 2.26million


You vastly exaggerate the difference between australias population growth and the uk's population growth. Yeah, its slightly more, and the UK is a small country but our population growth here is in a grand total of 3 cities. We also had net migration of more than half a million in the past two years and fertility rate above replacement level.

oh, and one last fact: population growth, uk, 1960-2008 = 9.04 million, 17%
population growth, australia 1960-2008 = 11.16 million, 108%

You were saying?

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:GBR:AUS&tstart=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48&hl=en&dl=en
neverlast
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria62 Posts
November 04 2010 12:48 GMT
#391
Those Europeans that do care about US politics - have a tendency towards the democratic side - because they do not care about how well the American is protected when it comes to Mexicans, Muslims or Talibans. The group of Europeans that do not care - would probably vote republicans.:-D

But we rather care about non-violent solutions where republicans - are not known for their diplomatic skills. I personally think invading countries because somewhere some terrorits are hiding - is a clear infringement of sovereignty of a country - especially when it is for completely different reason (oil, warfare industry ....)
The 3 races in bronze are: 6pool, cannon rush and bunkers. | Native Bronze Player since 2010
Dogsi
Profile Joined August 2010
Indonesia298 Posts
November 04 2010 12:55 GMT
#392
Despite what everyone on here seems to think, Europeans are just as right wing as Americans. There is currently a much stronger "push" against muslims, immigrants, ect. (foreign elements in general) through out all of Europe. Americans outlaw same sex marriage, Europeans outlaw arabic garments and minarets. A lot of you Europeans are extremely hypocritical in your posts on this thread.

Currently, the "right" parties are gaining increasing force in European politics to a large enough degree that previously extreme parties are actually becoming more main stream.

The only real difference in our politics is our views on economics (namely socialism/taxation). Since the American economy is more successful than the larger European economies, I see no reason why we are "crazy".
Shockk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany2269 Posts
November 04 2010 13:02 GMT
#393
On November 04 2010 21:55 Dogsi wrote: A lot of you Europeans are extremely hypocritical in your posts on this thread.


I'd like to quote this.

Considering the special demographic featured here on TL (probably 80-90% young males with over-average education and wealth), we probably don't have a lot of far right supporters on the US side and not too many muslim-haters on the european side either.

It's very dangerous (again, from both sides) to generalize and say "you Americans" or "you Europeans". If there's one thing a political debate doesn't need then it's judging all participants as if the belong to a homogenous group.
Kerotan
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
England2111 Posts
November 04 2010 13:11 GMT
#394
On November 04 2010 21:55 Dogsi wrote:
Despite what everyone on here seems to think, Europeans are just as right wing as Americans. There is currently a much stronger "push" against muslims, immigrants, ect. (foreign elements in general) through out all of Europe. Americans outlaw same sex marriage, Europeans outlaw arabic garments and minarets. A lot of you Europeans are extremely hypocritical in your posts on this thread.

Currently, the "right" parties are gaining increasing force in European politics to a large enough degree that previously extreme parties are actually becoming more main stream.

The only real difference in our politics is our views on economics (namely socialism/taxation). Since the American economy is more successful than the larger European economies, I see no reason why we are "crazy".


I'm going to have to call you out on this.
"Europe" hasn't done anything like that.
yes Switzerland banned minarets and the French banned body covering veils, but that leaves a whole long list of countries that haven't done anything legislatively that would be considered typically right wing.
In addition, that leaves you appealing to public feeling/mood in Europe, and to to base the general public mood of a whole area like Europe on a number of loud mouthed extremists, in the same way its ridiculous to do that for the states.
So to a certain extent, yes public opinion informs politics, and politics informs public opinion, but to investigate the political spectrum through perception of public opinion looking across from either side of the pond is a nonsense.
On the basis of legislation passed, I think that its undeniable to suggest that America is more to right that the EU, (Don't ask don't tell, healthcare, gay marriage) but it is up to you to make the value judgement.
Nerdette // External revolution - Internal revolution // Fabulous // I raise my hands to heaven of curiosity // I don't know what to ask for // What has it got for me? // Kerribear
Electric.Jesus
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany755 Posts
November 04 2010 13:58 GMT
#395
Also took the political orientation test.

Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.95

I knew I was a left-libertarian ut I had no idea about the extent. Also nice to see that I am in the company of Ghandi and the Dalai Lama which I consider to be admirable people.

Back on topic.

What I find most distreessing is the way politica depabtes are held in the US. NO ONE talks about facts anymore. From the republicans you can always hear the same sermon.

"bla bla bla...democrats are communists...bla, bla, terrorists will kill us all...bla bla bla, lower taxes...bla bla bla...god loves us (and only us)...bla bla bla...politically left = elitist...homosexuality is a devil-induced sickness and must be cured (and, btw, lets go see some lesbian dancers)."

The democrats counter with their own sermon:

"bla bla bla...intolerant bastards...bla bla bla...crazy nutjobs...bla bla bla...theocrats...bla bla bla all republicans are lobbyists".

Whenever anyone from wither side hears an argument that is not 100% in line with their own personal view, the other person is an idiot who fell for biased infromation. That killer-argument is even raised by the smart people in this thread (you dislike the conservatives in the US? - poor ignorant EU elitist who is mislead by biased media - sure!).

What is so maddining about it is that this way of public debate turns politics from a debate about political issues and solutions into an irrational debate about taste or ideologies. Every side can get their own "fatcs and media support" and in the end its like two small children argueing about who has the cooler imaginary friend. In that system people do not get elected because of the right ideas for existing problems but based on who gets to be liked the most based on perceived similarity of personal taste.

Even worse: that trend is beginning to spill over to other countires. Our politicians in Germany are already starting to copy that crap. Long time since I heard a politican actually answer a question on the point.
"Sir, the enemy has us sourrounded" - "Excellent, now we can attack in any direction!"
clementdudu
Profile Joined September 2010
France819 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-04 14:23:06
November 04 2010 14:14 GMT
#396
On November 04 2010 21:55 Dogsi wrote:
Despite what everyone on here seems to think, Europeans are just as right wing as Americans. There is currently a much stronger "push" against muslims, immigrants, ect. (foreign elements in general) through out all of Europe. Americans outlaw same sex marriage, Europeans outlaw arabic garments and minarets. A lot of you Europeans are extremely hypocritical in your posts on this thread.

Currently, the "right" parties are gaining increasing force in European politics to a large enough degree that previously extreme parties are actually becoming more main stream.

The only real difference in our politics is our views on economics (namely socialism/taxation). Since the American economy is more successful than the larger European economies, I see no reason why we are "crazy".


And if you knew anything about french politics,you'd know that the ban on burqas is not an anti-muslim act at all.
Modern-day France is VERY anti-religious.
Christians are asked to remove crosses from their neck everyday in schools if it's too big and might *offend* someone.
French people just feel that burqas are an abuse on woman,and that every french citizen should be immediatly recognizable by police.(France just banned masks in demonstrations for that very reason)
Dogsi
Profile Joined August 2010
Indonesia298 Posts
November 04 2010 15:04 GMT
#397
On November 04 2010 23:14 clementdudu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2010 21:55 Dogsi wrote:
Despite what everyone on here seems to think, Europeans are just as right wing as Americans. There is currently a much stronger "push" against muslims, immigrants, ect. (foreign elements in general) through out all of Europe. Americans outlaw same sex marriage, Europeans outlaw arabic garments and minarets. A lot of you Europeans are extremely hypocritical in your posts on this thread.

Currently, the "right" parties are gaining increasing force in European politics to a large enough degree that previously extreme parties are actually becoming more main stream.

The only real difference in our politics is our views on economics (namely socialism/taxation). Since the American economy is more successful than the larger European economies, I see no reason why we are "crazy".


And if you knew anything about french politics,you'd know that the ban on burqas is not an anti-muslim act at all.
Modern-day France is VERY anti-religious.
Christians are asked to remove crosses from their neck everyday in schools if it's too big and might *offend* someone.
French people just feel that burqas are an abuse on woman,and that every french citizen should be immediatly recognizable by police.(France just banned masks in demonstrations for that very reason)



You are restricting the willing actions of others based on personal views. Regardless of my personal opinion on that action, it qualifies as right.

In another country, a politician who publishes multitude of anti-islamic works (videos, books, ect.) now leads a controlling party in a European country.

In another country, minarets are banned.

In another country, the highest ranked government official states that immigrants need to adapt christian and local culture.

Ect.
clementdudu
Profile Joined September 2010
France819 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-04 15:16:25
November 04 2010 15:12 GMT
#398
On November 05 2010 00:04 Dogsi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2010 23:14 clementdudu wrote:
On November 04 2010 21:55 Dogsi wrote:
Despite what everyone on here seems to think, Europeans are just as right wing as Americans. There is currently a much stronger "push" against muslims, immigrants, ect. (foreign elements in general) through out all of Europe. Americans outlaw same sex marriage, Europeans outlaw arabic garments and minarets. A lot of you Europeans are extremely hypocritical in your posts on this thread.

Currently, the "right" parties are gaining increasing force in European politics to a large enough degree that previously extreme parties are actually becoming more main stream.

The only real difference in our politics is our views on economics (namely socialism/taxation). Since the American economy is more successful than the larger European economies, I see no reason why we are "crazy".


And if you knew anything about french politics,you'd know that the ban on burqas is not an anti-muslim act at all.
Modern-day France is VERY anti-religious.
Christians are asked to remove crosses from their neck everyday in schools if it's too big and might *offend* someone.
French people just feel that burqas are an abuse on woman,and that every french citizen should be immediatly recognizable by police.(France just banned masks in demonstrations for that very reason)




You are restricting the willing actions of others based on personal views. Regardless of my personal opinion on that action, it qualifies as right.

In another country, a politician who publishes multitude of anti-islamic works (videos, books, ect.) now leads a controlling party in a European country.

In another country, minarets are banned.

In another country, the highest ranked government official states that immigrants need to adapt christian and local culture.

Ect.


Hum we restrict others actions absed on french law o_O
In France you must be recognizable at any moment by the police when you're in the street.That's the law,not some kind of anti-liberty fascism thingy.
Of course when you see that France banned burqa from outside,you think directly about religious freedom.Btw extremists in france think thats an anti-muslim law,it's just not.
Sarkozy is probably the worst president in France since WWII,but if theres one thing you cannot accuse him of,thats being anti-muslim.
Vasili
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia125 Posts
November 04 2010 15:18 GMT
#399
Oooo and recently our media labelled you as intolerant of difference when the Mosque construction near ground zero was "slammed" as a hit the the American nation and 'letting the terrorists win'. It's sad how our media focused on that one point but I know for a fact that theres so many more diverse opinion on the subject. I did my research on American nationality construction through media discourse on war reporting, so I had to dig through articles from Fox news and the like and I found that much of the reporting focused on fighting back at intolerance. It looks like what we think of your politics doesn't really matter because it's misrepresented in our own media anyways. I wouldn't be to hung up at finding subjective interpretations of US politics from the outside because we have all been fed a bunch of assumptions about the U.S to begin with.. I guess the only real way to know is to actually live in America and take a neutral stance on all the information that you find.

Although, I'll say that I believe all politicians (left or right) are a pack of liars who can't give truthful information because it might damage their image.
Monsen
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany2548 Posts
November 04 2010 15:25 GMT
#400
On November 05 2010 00:04 Dogsi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2010 23:14 clementdudu wrote:
On November 04 2010 21:55 Dogsi wrote:
Despite what everyone on here seems to think, Europeans are just as right wing as Americans. There is currently a much stronger "push" against muslims, immigrants, ect. (foreign elements in general) through out all of Europe. Americans outlaw same sex marriage, Europeans outlaw arabic garments and minarets. A lot of you Europeans are extremely hypocritical in your posts on this thread.

Currently, the "right" parties are gaining increasing force in European politics to a large enough degree that previously extreme parties are actually becoming more main stream.

The only real difference in our politics is our views on economics (namely socialism/taxation). Since the American economy is more successful than the larger European economies, I see no reason why we are "crazy".


And if you knew anything about french politics,you'd know that the ban on burqas is not an anti-muslim act at all.
Modern-day France is VERY anti-religious.
Christians are asked to remove crosses from their neck everyday in schools if it's too big and might *offend* someone.
French people just feel that burqas are an abuse on woman,and that every french citizen should be immediatly recognizable by police.(France just banned masks in demonstrations for that very reason)



You are restricting the willing actions of others based on personal views. Regardless of my personal opinion on that action, it qualifies as right.

In another country, a politician who publishes multitude of anti-islamic works (videos, books, ect.) now leads a controlling party in a European country.

In another country, minarets are banned.

In another country, the highest ranked government official states that immigrants need to adapt christian and local culture.

Ect.


Troll much ?
Restricting the actions of "others" based on "personal views". "Others" being people that want the citizenship of each country in question ? And they're required to behave according to the laws and customs of said countries? Outrageous !

And "personal views" as in the laws of an entire country + the customs and values said country holds dear ?

I think you're killing babies for fun on a regular basis, with "killing babies" meaning eat bread, "fun" meaning hunger and "regular basis" meaning additional pylons.
11 years and counting- TL #680
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