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On November 04 2010 17:37 skurj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 16:35 iCanada wrote:On November 04 2010 08:35 skinnyrl wrote:On November 04 2010 07:02 Almin wrote:
American's are dumb.
All the Europeans here can agree.
Yesterday, there was a big vote and there were a lot of open seats in the house/senate. Guess what, Republicans take the house with ease, and almost take the Senate.
For some reason Republicans have the cash to spend millions on ads, (Which we see constantly on television) and 97% of their campaign donations are from millionaires and billionaires. Tell me, who do the Republicans represent? Not the middle class. I can't believe how idiotic Americans are, 2 years after the worst 8 years of a downward sloap, they elect the same people that got into that mess. The Republicans themselves said their agenda wouldn't change from the Bush administration.
I find it funny how hypocritical Republicans are, they say they want to cut down on government size and spending, but that same government invades 2 countries in 8 years. When the oil spill happened, they went to the government to fix it.
REPUBLICANS WERE AGAINST PUTTING BP UNDER OATH IN COURT- I MEAN COME ON, WHO DO THEY REPRESENT? The rich people. They're constantly hammering how the top 2% of Americas richest need a tax cut? LOL, they don't even spend their money so the economy wouldn't get better if the rich got one.
TL;DR= Dumb ass Americans vote in the rich white politicians again hoping that things will get better with them in the house/senate. This is the sad truth. You should buy some glasses if you don't know this is the actualy truth. And to the ones who still think obama and all those bush like people will change anything they should try to dig further in what is actually going on. I wouldn't have said it like that, but i tend to agree that Americans tend to vote in people representing factions that aren't their own. I think part of this has to do with he two party system, part of it has to do with the sheer monetary flow that Republicans are able to put into attack ads on TV (which is annoying as all hell, btw) and i blame the rest on just pure ignorance; people are pissed off about the countries financial situation and they are knee-jerking their way back to the people who put them in the red in the first place. I just don't understand the reasoning... it is like having one financial planner who screws up your portfolio really badly to the point in which you switch planners because the other guys plan sucked. You finally start climbing out of the red and back in the black (or, in this case, employment is rising, economy starting to normalize again) and you say "Damn, this new guy isn't working out, lets switch back the the old guy." It seems like faulty logic at every step of the way, personally. I almost use american politics as comic relief, i find it ridiculous that despite the US having secularism in their roots, religion still plagues the government all around. And in general, i believe that the Parliamentry system is better because it is less confusing. When i vote in a federal election, i vote for one guy and that is it; Americans have to vote for a president, a senator, and a congressman for the house of representatives. I understand that they are staggered, but there is still so many more issues to get covered, and so many more variations and platforms you need to familiarize yourself with if you want to be an informed voter at all levels. In addition to that, i feel like the average american is much more right wing than any other western country. For example, the Conservative party that is in power right now is in my opinion more liberal than the supposedly moderate/leftwing democrats. Just a point of fact - you speak about the money the Republicans used for attack ads, but the Democrats had the contribution advantage in this election cycle. Common misconception among people that get their news from left-leaning outlets.
AFAIK contribution numbers like that don't include, for example, money flowing into the Chamber of Commerce which runs ads overwhelmingly in favor of Republicans. Direct contributions to campaigns does run slightly in the Democrat's favor, I believe.
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I'm an expat living in Japan and I view elections as a motivator to stay here. It's like nobody can understand the outcome of their actions beyond the immediate impulse.
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On November 04 2010 15:54 skurj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 15:30 Blondinbengt wrote:On November 04 2010 14:54 skurj wrote:
In America, many of us are quite amazed at the extent of the left-wing in Europe. We see that the French government raised the retirement age by 2 years because they had to, otherwise the country would go bankrupt, and French citizens riot in the street and demand their handouts! Demanding handouts is very unAmerican. We believe that a person should take responsibility for himself and only seek help if he falls on hard times. Many people on the right-wing believe that socialism corrupts the morality and spirit of a people, it makes them soft and dependent, infantilized. We see the riots in France and this confirms our negative views of socialism. The problem with saying that everyone should just ''take responsibility'' for themselves is that people are not born equal in terms of their capacity to provide from themselves. Some people are born into rich families while some people are born into poor ones. Then there's the simple fact that people are not equally gifted in areas that matter when it comes to making money, not everyone is Einstein-smart or Usain Bolt-athletic. So, a system based on the idea that everyone has the same possibilites for wealth is in my opinion not a very fair system at all. This discussion is on too simple a level. I support some programs for the poor but I think programs that provide benefits for everyone are dangerous and a bad idea. This country isn't going bankrupt because of programs for the poor, it is going bankrupt because of our large entitlement programs that cover everyone and military spending. I am fine with food stamps and college subsidies for poor students but I would like to see parts of Social Security and Medicare rolled back. In particular, I would like to see them means-tested so that only poor people could draw benefits. I can't speak for the entire right wing but I am sure many agree with me.
Well, obviously the situation here in Sweden is different since we don't spend 20% of our budget on the military. But, I also think you are missing the point, the idea isn't to take money from specific people and give to specific people, the idea is to establish a solid welfare system that makes sure that everyone has atleast a certain standard of living, no matter how much money they make.
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On November 04 2010 16:32 LB87 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 15:30 Blondinbengt wrote:On November 04 2010 14:54 skurj wrote:
In America, many of us are quite amazed at the extent of the left-wing in Europe. We see that the French government raised the retirement age by 2 years because they had to, otherwise the country would go bankrupt, and French citizens riot in the street and demand their handouts! Demanding handouts is very unAmerican. We believe that a person should take responsibility for himself and only seek help if he falls on hard times. Many people on the right-wing believe that socialism corrupts the morality and spirit of a people, it makes them soft and dependent, infantilized. We see the riots in France and this confirms our negative views of socialism. The problem with saying that everyone should just ''take responsibility'' for themselves is that people are not born equal in terms of their capacity to provide from themselves. Some people are born into rich families while some people are born into poor ones. Then there's the simple fact that people are not equally gifted in areas that matter when it comes to making money, not everyone is Einstein-smart or Usain Bolt-athletic. So, a system based on the idea that everyone has the same possibilites for wealth is in my opinion not a very fair system at all. In the US, you don't have to be an intellectual genius or a pro athlete to be successful. Most people are able to do very well, some do exceptionally well. Some people aren't able to get by, and there are many safety nets for those people. If the US embraced equality of outcome versus equality of opportunity, the successful would have to be penalized for being successful. The drive to succeed would be diminished, killing off innovation and improvement. Ford probably wouldn't have worked so hard to invent automobiles if he knew that most/all of the profit he would make because of it would have to go to other people. I don't understand why so many people think that being successful and wealthy is bad for everyone else and that rich people hoard all their money. Rich people buy and all kinds things that other people are producing and selling. I wouldn't be surprised if rich people buying yachts, cars, and huge houses created more jobs than Obama's $800 billion. It takes a lot of people to build a yacht, and those people aren't as rich as the people buying it, and I guarantee they're making money doing it. Life in general isn't fair. I would rather have the possibility of gettin a super hot gf than have the government issue me a marginal one. Same w/ life. Sorry if I sound like Limbaugh, but that makes sense to me.
First of all, I didn't say that unless you are born with the genetics of a demi-god you can't succeed, those are just examples of extreme cases.
Also, socialism doesn't mean that everyone is only allowed to make a certain amount of money every month and every cent over that goes to the state.
When did I say that people being rich is bad?
Once again, it's not that you have to choose between a chance at a 10 or a guaranteed 5, it's more along the lines of that the chance at a 10 are lowered slightly in order to guarantee a 5 if shit doesn't work out.
It's not black and white, you don't have to choose between Capitalism and Socialism, to be honest, all western countries uses a mix of both ideologies.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2010 06:06 KwarK wrote:
I find it absurd to the point of amusement until I remember the global position of the US and then I die a little inside. The importance of religion in American politics (how is abortion an important issue for anyone anywhere ever?!?!?!) and a Cold War fear of socialism are rather quaint from a European perspective.
This pretty much sums up my view. I'm probably biased from Swedish media but still, Republicans and Tea Partyists scare the living shit out of me. So much fear, hate and ignorance.
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On November 04 2010 17:39 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 17:37 skurj wrote:On November 04 2010 16:35 iCanada wrote:On November 04 2010 08:35 skinnyrl wrote:On November 04 2010 07:02 Almin wrote:
American's are dumb.
All the Europeans here can agree.
Yesterday, there was a big vote and there were a lot of open seats in the house/senate. Guess what, Republicans take the house with ease, and almost take the Senate.
For some reason Republicans have the cash to spend millions on ads, (Which we see constantly on television) and 97% of their campaign donations are from millionaires and billionaires. Tell me, who do the Republicans represent? Not the middle class. I can't believe how idiotic Americans are, 2 years after the worst 8 years of a downward sloap, they elect the same people that got into that mess. The Republicans themselves said their agenda wouldn't change from the Bush administration.
I find it funny how hypocritical Republicans are, they say they want to cut down on government size and spending, but that same government invades 2 countries in 8 years. When the oil spill happened, they went to the government to fix it.
REPUBLICANS WERE AGAINST PUTTING BP UNDER OATH IN COURT- I MEAN COME ON, WHO DO THEY REPRESENT? The rich people. They're constantly hammering how the top 2% of Americas richest need a tax cut? LOL, they don't even spend their money so the economy wouldn't get better if the rich got one.
TL;DR= Dumb ass Americans vote in the rich white politicians again hoping that things will get better with them in the house/senate. This is the sad truth. You should buy some glasses if you don't know this is the actualy truth. And to the ones who still think obama and all those bush like people will change anything they should try to dig further in what is actually going on. I wouldn't have said it like that, but i tend to agree that Americans tend to vote in people representing factions that aren't their own. I think part of this has to do with he two party system, part of it has to do with the sheer monetary flow that Republicans are able to put into attack ads on TV (which is annoying as all hell, btw) and i blame the rest on just pure ignorance; people are pissed off about the countries financial situation and they are knee-jerking their way back to the people who put them in the red in the first place. I just don't understand the reasoning... it is like having one financial planner who screws up your portfolio really badly to the point in which you switch planners because the other guys plan sucked. You finally start climbing out of the red and back in the black (or, in this case, employment is rising, economy starting to normalize again) and you say "Damn, this new guy isn't working out, lets switch back the the old guy." It seems like faulty logic at every step of the way, personally. I almost use american politics as comic relief, i find it ridiculous that despite the US having secularism in their roots, religion still plagues the government all around. And in general, i believe that the Parliamentry system is better because it is less confusing. When i vote in a federal election, i vote for one guy and that is it; Americans have to vote for a president, a senator, and a congressman for the house of representatives. I understand that they are staggered, but there is still so many more issues to get covered, and so many more variations and platforms you need to familiarize yourself with if you want to be an informed voter at all levels. In addition to that, i feel like the average american is much more right wing than any other western country. For example, the Conservative party that is in power right now is in my opinion more liberal than the supposedly moderate/leftwing democrats. Just a point of fact - you speak about the money the Republicans used for attack ads, but the Democrats had the contribution advantage in this election cycle. Common misconception among people that get their news from left-leaning outlets. AFAIK contribution numbers like that don't include, for example, money flowing into the Chamber of Commerce which runs ads overwhelmingly in favor of Republicans. Direct contributions to campaigns does run slightly in the Democrat's favor, I believe.
When you add third-party spending, the Dems still had the lead. Also the number one outside spending organization was the state and local public employee union, which favors the Dems (because Democrats shamelessly bankrupt states like California to give them benefits).
3 of the 5 top spending outside organizations were Dem voting unions.
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On November 04 2010 17:28 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 17:26 mortar wrote:
Seems OK to me. Altho I'm not so sure of why americans (most of them) are so afraid of socialism. Because very wealthy business interests control the government, media, and workplace. Heavy indoctrination tilted towards business interests is the rule with few exceptions!
Shouldn't stop people from thinking themselves tho :p
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We just can't understand how someone sane, from the middle class, with no prejudice against race or nationality and not a biggot could vote for republicans.
Then Democrats have a free ride with poeple who aren't deeply interested in politics.
Oh and 2 parties? How the F can you express the subtelty of policy making with a binary choice? No wonder you get polarized stances and idiotic argument.
Last thing: get a damn dictionnary and look up socialism ; get a plane ticket and go to european countries with "socialist parties" ruling (or ruled not so long ago). Then find a new word to abuse.
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On November 04 2010 18:09 skurj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 17:39 Romantic wrote:On November 04 2010 17:37 skurj wrote:On November 04 2010 16:35 iCanada wrote:On November 04 2010 08:35 skinnyrl wrote:On November 04 2010 07:02 Almin wrote:
American's are dumb.
All the Europeans here can agree.
Yesterday, there was a big vote and there were a lot of open seats in the house/senate. Guess what, Republicans take the house with ease, and almost take the Senate.
For some reason Republicans have the cash to spend millions on ads, (Which we see constantly on television) and 97% of their campaign donations are from millionaires and billionaires. Tell me, who do the Republicans represent? Not the middle class. I can't believe how idiotic Americans are, 2 years after the worst 8 years of a downward sloap, they elect the same people that got into that mess. The Republicans themselves said their agenda wouldn't change from the Bush administration.
I find it funny how hypocritical Republicans are, they say they want to cut down on government size and spending, but that same government invades 2 countries in 8 years. When the oil spill happened, they went to the government to fix it.
REPUBLICANS WERE AGAINST PUTTING BP UNDER OATH IN COURT- I MEAN COME ON, WHO DO THEY REPRESENT? The rich people. They're constantly hammering how the top 2% of Americas richest need a tax cut? LOL, they don't even spend their money so the economy wouldn't get better if the rich got one.
TL;DR= Dumb ass Americans vote in the rich white politicians again hoping that things will get better with them in the house/senate. This is the sad truth. You should buy some glasses if you don't know this is the actualy truth. And to the ones who still think obama and all those bush like people will change anything they should try to dig further in what is actually going on. I wouldn't have said it like that, but i tend to agree that Americans tend to vote in people representing factions that aren't their own. I think part of this has to do with he two party system, part of it has to do with the sheer monetary flow that Republicans are able to put into attack ads on TV (which is annoying as all hell, btw) and i blame the rest on just pure ignorance; people are pissed off about the countries financial situation and they are knee-jerking their way back to the people who put them in the red in the first place. I just don't understand the reasoning... it is like having one financial planner who screws up your portfolio really badly to the point in which you switch planners because the other guys plan sucked. You finally start climbing out of the red and back in the black (or, in this case, employment is rising, economy starting to normalize again) and you say "Damn, this new guy isn't working out, lets switch back the the old guy." It seems like faulty logic at every step of the way, personally. I almost use american politics as comic relief, i find it ridiculous that despite the US having secularism in their roots, religion still plagues the government all around. And in general, i believe that the Parliamentry system is better because it is less confusing. When i vote in a federal election, i vote for one guy and that is it; Americans have to vote for a president, a senator, and a congressman for the house of representatives. I understand that they are staggered, but there is still so many more issues to get covered, and so many more variations and platforms you need to familiarize yourself with if you want to be an informed voter at all levels. In addition to that, i feel like the average american is much more right wing than any other western country. For example, the Conservative party that is in power right now is in my opinion more liberal than the supposedly moderate/leftwing democrats. Just a point of fact - you speak about the money the Republicans used for attack ads, but the Democrats had the contribution advantage in this election cycle. Common misconception among people that get their news from left-leaning outlets. AFAIK contribution numbers like that don't include, for example, money flowing into the Chamber of Commerce which runs ads overwhelmingly in favor of Republicans. Direct contributions to campaigns does run slightly in the Democrat's favor, I believe. When you add third-party spending, the Dems still had the lead. Also the number one outside spending organization was the state and local public employee union, which favors the Dems (because Democrats shamelessly bankrupt states like California to give them benefits). 3 of the 5 top spending outside organizations were Dem voting unions.
Post the numbers and I'll believe it.
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I think the entire world is laughing at USA. You have a gov that runs your country into the shittyhole, big ass debt everywhere, loaning tons of money from China. Stuck in wars you can't win. You choose a different president who tries to sort the mess, doing quite ok at it aswell such as pulling troops out and trying to stabilize the economy. Instead of voting for him again, you choose to go back to the old way, WTF?
Such a joke. Hopefully the rest of the world wont be affected for long by how you run your country.
Also that you consider Socialism to be the mega devil is funny, I live in Sweden and it's great. Here you don't see bums on the street and you don't hear about people dying because they can't afford the most basic medical aid. Yes we pay more taxes, so what? If we get sick we aren't fucked for life.
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As a non-American I applaud that politics is so big in your country. There are huge rallies and people honking their cars -- stuff like that ONLY happens for sports in Europe. There there's also ALOT of talking about politics on TV, and it's much more in depth than in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. There are bestseller books about poltiics. That could NEVER happen where I live.
In Europe we take sports seriously. Americans take sports *and* politics seriously. 
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On November 04 2010 18:14 Grumbaki wrote:
We just can't understand how someone sane, from the middle class, with no prejudice against race or nationality and not a biggot could vote for republicans.
Then Democrats have a free ride with poeple who aren't deeply interested in politics.
Oh and 2 parties? How the F can you express the subtelty of policy making with a binary choice? No wonder you get polarized stances and idiotic argument.
Last thing: get a damn dictionnary and look up socialism ; get a plane ticket and go to european countries with "socialist parties" ruling (or ruled not so long ago). Then find a new word to abuse.
I am middle class, not prejudice and not a bigot and vote republican (most of the time, I am not a blind ticket voter). The reason why lies in your next point about 2 parties. I have always viewed myself as socially liberal and fiscally conservative. The two party system totally sucks, and it was never the intention of American politics to have a solely two party system. It was created, as I am sure everyone has read, to be "a government of the people, by the people, for the people." Somewhere in the last 200 years this system has failed miserably however.
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On November 04 2010 18:19 DwD wrote:
I think the entire world is laughing at USA. You have a gov that runs your country into the shittyhole, big ass debt everywhere, loaning tons of money from China. Stuck in wars you can't win. You choose a different president who tries to sort the mess, doing quite ok at it aswell such as pulling troops out and trying to stabilize the economy. Instead of voting for him again, you choose to go back to the old way, WTF?
Such a joke. Hopefully the rest of the world wont be affected for long by how you run your country.
Also that you consider Socialism to be the mega devil is funny, I live in Sweden and it's great. Here you don't see bums on the street and you don't hear about people dying because they can't afford the most basic medical aid. Yes we pay more taxes, so what? If we get sick we aren't fucked for life.
Well before flaming and stereotyping every American as stupid you should probably consider that Obama was not up for election 2 days ago.
On November 04 2010 18:20 MrLonely wrote:As a non-American I applaud that politics is so big in your country. There are huge rallies and people honking their cars -- stuff like that ONLY happens for sports in Europe. There there's also ALOT of talking about politics on TV, and it's much more in depth than in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. There are bestseller books about poltiics. That could NEVER happen where I live. In Europe we take sports seriously. Americans take sports *and* politics seriously.
We must put on a pretty good show then, because in reality most Americans can't be bothered with politics.
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Here's what i got from american polticis really simply explained:
Bush was evil, republicans will lose.
Democrats seeing the opportunity they want to to do something memorable, a women or a black president.
Republicans try to counter with an old, respectable, stand up man, who might have a chance but not a big waste if he loses (by waste i mean if i got it correctly once you lose an elections you wont try again, in Hungary our current leader lost 2 elections before this, lol)
Democrats end up with Obama, republicans counter with a women vice-president to get the feminist votes. They fail, Obama rises up, everyone tries to bring him down asap.
Plus the number of seats/senators swings almost every 2 years to make things more complicated, lol.
What i find stupid is the fact you can lose the popular vote and become the President, pretty lame.
As far as i go, i'd vote for the democrats most of the time, or not at all.
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On November 04 2010 06:06 KwarK wrote:
I find it absurd to the point of amusement until I remember the global position of the US and then I die a little inside. The importance of religion in American politics (how is abortion an important issue for anyone anywhere ever?!?!?!) and a Cold War fear of socialism are rather quaint from a European perspective.
Yeah something like that.
Everytime I remember the positions of republicans, I have a serious headache.
The thing I find seriously worrying is that everything in the actual US debate is driven by fear, and most often by very irrationnal fear.
I think US is going downhill and will never really recover; I don't know how much of the erst of the world they will take with them, but an era is over.
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On November 04 2010 18:26 KashmirAZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 18:14 Grumbaki wrote:
We just can't understand how someone sane, from the middle class, with no prejudice against race or nationality and not a biggot could vote for republicans.
Then Democrats have a free ride with poeple who aren't deeply interested in politics.
Oh and 2 parties? How the F can you express the subtelty of policy making with a binary choice? No wonder you get polarized stances and idiotic argument.
Last thing: get a damn dictionnary and look up socialism ; get a plane ticket and go to european countries with "socialist parties" ruling (or ruled not so long ago). Then find a new word to abuse. I am middle class, not prejudice and not a bigot and vote republican (most of the time, I am not a blind ticket voter). The reason why lies in your next point about 2 parties. I have always viewed myself as socially liberal and fiscally conservative. The two party system totally sucks, and it was never the intention of American politics to have a solely two party system. It was created, as I am sure everyone has read, to be "a government of the people, by the people, for the people." Somewhere in the last 200 years this system has failed miserably however.
Your point is interesting but even as "socially liberal and fiscally conservative", here in Europe poeple would (IMHO) choose to vote for the party fitting their social request over their fiscal requests.
There is 2 exceptions I could see to that
- someone with a grand total of 0 link to any of the social issues. The old joke of 35 white straight male "nut gum" joke from the simpsons. (http://www.snpp.com/episodes/1F12.html couldn't find youtube...homer "I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me -- no matter how dumb my suggestions are.
- someone in the way lower middle class who gives up his social requests for escaping poverty...(theoritical example as even under our "heavy european taxation" this category is generally very very lightly taxed).
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American politics are insane. It's a blend of reality tv and music videos. Without substance and self-promotion 24/7.
I'd be so embarrassed to live in USA.
The democrats are dumb useless assholes and the republicans are dumb useless assholes.
The one thing that scares the living shit out of me, besides the Christians in USA, are the PC socialists in Sweden. Those fuckers are just as bad from a different direction. They spew their filthy lies like they're the DDR. Their PC agenda restricts people's thoughts and they apply laws and rules that are anti free speech and call it tolerance when in fact it's the opposite. It's disgusting.
Free discussion in Sweden is like a black man at a KKK rally.
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I find it hilarious that a small but vocal minority of Americans care about what Europeans think about us. I don't think that happens in other countries but I could be wrong, Europhilia is just really strong among the NYT-Starbucks-hipster crowd.
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Also that you consider Socialism to be the mega devil is funny, I live in Sweden and it's great. Here you don't see bums on the street and you don't hear about people dying because they can't afford the most basic medical aid. Yes we pay more taxes, so what? If we get sick we aren't fucked for life.
We get alienated/ignored/insulted/[insert something awful] for trying to explain the non-American truth about socialism. Personally, I have had to push that kind of knowledge to the side because not many people here care.
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Personally speaking, I think in the UK we look at US politics with a bit of bemusement.
It is so polarised, there seems very little 'centre' ground.
Also, our perception of US media, whether justified or not, is one of hyperbolic partisanship.
It seems you have either a liberal media, or a conservative media. And no actual objective media.
Mind, we have that here too, but US media seems more TV dominated than the UK which is more print led. And TV doesn't lend itself to weighty discourse, and more towards talking points, personalities and black and white positioning.
Of course overseas it's hard to understand the mood and feeling that fuels US politics and so from the outside looking in, it can seem a little absurd.
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EPT
