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On November 02 2010 11:09 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +Post late 1970's, Keynes theory was albeit rejected from most major governments in favor of Friedman economics, but with the latest recession, Keynes is seeing a comeback (so no, it has not been the predominant thought since the 30's). Friedman's version of economics never displaced neoclassical synthesis as the main theoretical background taught at the university level. And for all the stuff Friedman said, much of it proved to be incorrect. There is significant video of him saying that socialized medicine would break countries and here we are in 2010 and the best systems all have some degree of socialization. and what is the deal with so many people saying that output levels are a poor measure of economic performance? this must be the one of the new conservative excuses for why their policies blow ass so hard.
You're right, I was taught the IS/LM model at my university. It's a fantastic model for the short run, but poor for long run. You should have learned why. That's why they move into the AD/AS model, which is acceptable for modeling the effects of various changes in a classroom. As for much of Friedman's stuff being proved incorrect, source? Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
Output levels are a poor measure of economic performance because it fails to take into account several key things, ie. a housewife staying at home raising the children, preparing dinner, cleaning the house, while the husband brings in the cash (it could very well be the other way around, this is just an example). GDP doesn't take into account any of that, but it's still an integral aspect to how people make decisions on a daily basis, decisions which DO fuel measured GDP.
Another example is the negative environmental impact that manufacturing gives off. And yet another example black market transactions. I hate to quote wikipedia, but this is pretty much verbatim what I was taught: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Limitations_of_GDP_to_judge_the_health_of_an_economy
One last thing, I'm a registered independent and voted for Obama, so don't pull that anti-conservative crap on me.
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On November 02 2010 13:20 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:16 Sabu113 wrote:
Any one else sympathetic to Krugman's column last friday?
The apocalypse is coming. Government gridlock and no sign of the fiscal stimulus that we clearly need. The fears of a liquidity trap aren't too ridiculous imo. not too sure about that. just hold strong and work together to get through this. don't let religious fear mongering get to you. Albert Einstein issued one of my favourite quotes in the history of the spoken word, and it is as follows: in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity!
I remember reading a Krugman article in Rolling Stone at an old job. He wanted a second, bigger stimulus. If you are gonna throw money away, at least have a way to pay it back. Krugman is all over the place with his positions. I don't take him very seriously anymore.
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everyone should go out and Vote tomorrow, assuming your in the states that is
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On November 02 2010 13:03 angelicfolly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 12:33 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 12:27 angelicfolly wrote:On November 02 2010 11:52 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 11:06 Tuneful wrote:On November 02 2010 10:30 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 10:25 Tuneful wrote:On November 02 2010 10:21 pfods wrote:
i hope the republicans sweep the house and senate, literally obliterate what remains of our functioning democracy(that term barely applies), and we can all jump ship and move on with our lives. The same "barely functioning democracy" that allows you to post here.  what kind of an argument is that? that's the most bland, generic herpderp of a statement i've ever read. we have one of the most broken political systems in the developed world. our congressional process is so bogged down in partisanship and procedural rules it's a joke. Yes, but I still wouldn't trade it away. Every day I am thankful that I live here and not somewhere else. I don't think that being grateful for what you have, despite it being "broken," is "herpderp." cool patriotism bro. i can think of five other countries that i would rather live in off the top of my head(that might actually care about me). america is not one of them. already plan on moving, so save the genius come back. It's cool when the country actually allows you to do that, I mean ins't that something to be grateful for? You might actually have a hard time finding a country made for you.... what is with you people? do you actually think america is the only country with "freedom"? and why should i be grateful? that i wasn't born in north korea? what did the country have to do with that? i thank my parents for not being korean for that one. country had nothing to do with it. Hmm, it actually does, when the country give you the ability to get things down, you kinda want at least to be grateful you had the opening to do what you want. Hint, it's not just being born, it's what they offer YOU. Oh don't go to another country thinking they need to cater to you, it doesn't happen.
Actually, it totally does. Take like, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, New Zealand, Australia, etc. as examples. You might think taxes are a big deal but you can get free college/healthcare/time off/vacations etc. just for being a citizen in many places and that's way less expensive than paying for any of that in the US.
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This is actually one of the most horrifying midterm elections in my life.
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I don't really like either party that much, but I'm really excited about this election because of Prop 19 and Jimmy McMilian. Honestly, it might totally suck for NY if McMilian won the governor race but then again it might not and it'd be so fucking badass if he somehow won. But, for now, I'm just hoping that he can somehow manage 7-10% of the vote (highly doubtful but I can hope).
On the other side of the country, I'm very interested in Prop 19 and want it seems like it has a great chance of passing which is awesome. Should change a lot of things not just in CA but the rest of the country. I mean, I don't think it'll culturally change very much as a great deal of people already smoke weed and it's not like when/if it's legalized everyone is gonna start lighting up. It'll, in my opinion, reduce crime and gang violence while generating an enormous amount of money for California. I feel pretty confident that other states will try to emulate that sort of law as well. Wonder how the feds will react though if it passes?
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On November 02 2010 10:15 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 10:06 red_b wrote:On November 02 2010 09:43 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
And by clean up their mess you mean create unemployment that lasted for 30 years after the depression ended, and extended the great depression by 7 years. It's your memory that is extremely short.
Einsteins definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. If Obama wants to do the same as FDR, I expect the depression to last longer and for unemployment to extend into the far future (2050 assuming history repeats itself). You are demonstrably wrong: ![[image loading]](http://www.urbandigs.com/great-depression-gdp.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.djindexes.com/mdsidx/images/avgimages/graph1930-1939.gif) ![[image loading]](http://www.economicshelp.org/uploaded_images/Gdp-us-20-40-767020.jpg) FDR took over in 1933. Get the fuck over it, you're wrong, period, end of story. Take a look at reality and reevaluate how you can be so utterly wrong. Hoover and his bunch of idiot libertarians did nothing and it blew up spectacularly in their faces. Keynesian economics was so right it is STILL the predominant economic theory, albeit it has at this point basically merged with neoclassical economics. Where the fuck did you learn economics? Your dad? Your basketball coach in high school? When I talk to libertarians, it is like my own personal version of Heart of Darkness. I come face to face with pure, unadulterated idiocy and stare it in the face. GDP has nothing to do with unemployment, or wealth creation. GDP =CGI, consumer spending, government and investment. Decrease consumer spending and investment and increase government, the population is poorer, but GDP goes up. Amazing how math works. What you demonstrated is absolutely nothing. I never said that Hoover did anything right. But if you want to explain how Keynes didn't create 10 year of unemployement and depression when his policy was used, that is entirely up to you.
"Shit.
This guy has caught me.
Okay. What did I learn in sophomore macroeconomics that I can tell him to fuck off with.
Hmmm. I know. Let's just say that GDP is consumer spending + public spending + investment.
That means it's not unemployment right?
Jesus, I really should've taken macro in my junior year too. Okay, let's just go with that. Hopefully that's as far as anyone ever got."
Seriously, if you're going to debate economics, make goddamn sure you know something about it.
As for the midterm elections, if you vote teaparty, you're a fucking idiot and you're helping to destroy this country.
Otherwise, your republican / democrat vote should probably be decided on what you know (e.g. a vote for Matt Doheny would be a great way to put an asshole shill into congress AND simultaneously damage your state, whereas John McCain, though still pretty evil by most conventional measures, does pretty well by Arizona.
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On November 02 2010 13:37 Scruffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:20 Roe wrote:On November 02 2010 13:16 Sabu113 wrote:
Any one else sympathetic to Krugman's column last friday?
The apocalypse is coming. Government gridlock and no sign of the fiscal stimulus that we clearly need. The fears of a liquidity trap aren't too ridiculous imo. not too sure about that. just hold strong and work together to get through this. don't let religious fear mongering get to you. Albert Einstein issued one of my favourite quotes in the history of the spoken word, and it is as follows: in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity! I remember reading a Krugman article in Rolling Stone at an old job. He wanted a second, bigger stimulus. If you are gonna throw money away, at least have a way to pay it back. Krugman is all over the place with his positions. I don't take him very seriously anymore.
Krugman wanted a stimulus that stimulated.
That means public spending.
The first stimulus was a whole bunch of bull shit bailouts. No fucking wonder it didn't work.
What did we build with it? Approximately nothing. Where did the money go? Largely to large financial institutions.
Stimulus can work. We've seen it before. It just can't be a bunch of cash payouts to everyone and their dog.
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On November 02 2010 13:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:03 angelicfolly wrote:On November 02 2010 12:33 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 12:27 angelicfolly wrote:On November 02 2010 11:52 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 11:06 Tuneful wrote:On November 02 2010 10:30 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 10:25 Tuneful wrote:On November 02 2010 10:21 pfods wrote:
i hope the republicans sweep the house and senate, literally obliterate what remains of our functioning democracy(that term barely applies), and we can all jump ship and move on with our lives. The same "barely functioning democracy" that allows you to post here. what kind of an argument is that? that's the most bland, generic herpderp of a statement i've ever read. we have one of the most broken political systems in the developed world. our congressional process is so bogged down in partisanship and procedural rules it's a joke. Yes, but I still wouldn't trade it away. Every day I am thankful that I live here and not somewhere else. I don't think that being grateful for what you have, despite it being "broken," is "herpderp." cool patriotism bro. i can think of five other countries that i would rather live in off the top of my head(that might actually care about me). america is not one of them. already plan on moving, so save the genius come back. It's cool when the country actually allows you to do that, I mean ins't that something to be grateful for? You might actually have a hard time finding a country made for you.... what is with you people? do you actually think america is the only country with "freedom"? and why should i be grateful? that i wasn't born in north korea? what did the country have to do with that? i thank my parents for not being korean for that one. country had nothing to do with it. Hmm, it actually does, when the country give you the ability to get things down, you kinda want at least to be grateful you had the opening to do what you want. Hint, it's not just being born, it's what they offer YOU. Oh don't go to another country thinking they need to cater to you, it doesn't happen. Actually, it totally does. Take like, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, New Zealand, Australia, etc. as examples. You might think taxes are a big deal but you can get free college/healthcare/time off/vacations etc. just for being a citizen in many places and that's way less expensive than paying for any of that in the US.
The point is, ultimately, that you shouldn't desire to "tear down" any system that could even modestly be called democratic, because the alternatives are far worse, and if you did eliminate such a system, it would likely take centuries of bloody struggle to restore said system.
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On November 02 2010 14:36 IamTheWhiteGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:37 Scruffy wrote:On November 02 2010 13:20 Roe wrote:On November 02 2010 13:16 Sabu113 wrote:
Any one else sympathetic to Krugman's column last friday?
The apocalypse is coming. Government gridlock and no sign of the fiscal stimulus that we clearly need. The fears of a liquidity trap aren't too ridiculous imo. not too sure about that. just hold strong and work together to get through this. don't let religious fear mongering get to you. Albert Einstein issued one of my favourite quotes in the history of the spoken word, and it is as follows: in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity! I remember reading a Krugman article in Rolling Stone at an old job. He wanted a second, bigger stimulus. If you are gonna throw money away, at least have a way to pay it back. Krugman is all over the place with his positions. I don't take him very seriously anymore. Krugman wanted a stimulus that stimulated. That means public spending. The first stimulus was a whole bunch of bull shit bailouts. No fucking wonder it didn't work. What did we build with it? Approximately nothing. Where did the money go? Largely to large financial institutions. Stimulus can work. We've seen it before. It just can't be a bunch of cash payouts to everyone and their dog.
So who do you suggest we give money to this time?
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On November 02 2010 13:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:03 angelicfolly wrote:On November 02 2010 12:33 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 12:27 angelicfolly wrote:On November 02 2010 11:52 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 11:06 Tuneful wrote:On November 02 2010 10:30 pfods wrote:On November 02 2010 10:25 Tuneful wrote:On November 02 2010 10:21 pfods wrote:
i hope the republicans sweep the house and senate, literally obliterate what remains of our functioning democracy(that term barely applies), and we can all jump ship and move on with our lives. The same "barely functioning democracy" that allows you to post here. what kind of an argument is that? that's the most bland, generic herpderp of a statement i've ever read. we have one of the most broken political systems in the developed world. our congressional process is so bogged down in partisanship and procedural rules it's a joke. Yes, but I still wouldn't trade it away. Every day I am thankful that I live here and not somewhere else. I don't think that being grateful for what you have, despite it being "broken," is "herpderp." cool patriotism bro. i can think of five other countries that i would rather live in off the top of my head(that might actually care about me). america is not one of them. already plan on moving, so save the genius come back. It's cool when the country actually allows you to do that, I mean ins't that something to be grateful for? You might actually have a hard time finding a country made for you.... what is with you people? do you actually think america is the only country with "freedom"? and why should i be grateful? that i wasn't born in north korea? what did the country have to do with that? i thank my parents for not being korean for that one. country had nothing to do with it. Hmm, it actually does, when the country give you the ability to get things down, you kinda want at least to be grateful you had the opening to do what you want. Hint, it's not just being born, it's what they offer YOU. Oh don't go to another country thinking they need to cater to you, it doesn't happen. Actually, it totally does. Take like, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, France, New Zealand, Australia, etc. as examples. You might think taxes are a big deal but you can get free college/healthcare/time off/vacations etc. just for being a citizen in many places and that's way less expensive than paying for any of that in the US.
Actually what? If you are saying that they want you, you're kidding yourself.
Nothing is free, you ARE expected to pay taxes to actually get this "stuff". Point is you are EXPECTED to work for what you want, not be catered to.
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On November 02 2010 09:30 Ferrose wrote:
This is the first year that I can vote. I'm so excited to stand outside for an hour when it's thirty degrees!
But really, I'm excited to vote.
Edit: Why should we get all the Democrats out and put in Repubs? Doesn't that kind of fuck everything up to get totally new people in there?
basically nothing will ever happen when the house and senate are opposite parties of the president, i forget what it's called since AP Gov was a while ago 
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On November 02 2010 15:05 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 09:30 Ferrose wrote:
This is the first year that I can vote. I'm so excited to stand outside for an hour when it's thirty degrees!
But really, I'm excited to vote.
Edit: Why should we get all the Democrats out and put in Repubs? Doesn't that kind of fuck everything up to get totally new people in there? basically nothing will ever happen when the house and senate are opposite parties of the president, i forget what it's called since AP Gov was a while ago
Bill Clinton comes to mind....
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On November 02 2010 14:42 LOLtex wrote:
So who do you suggest we give money to this time?
If I did this math right, $800,000,000,000 is about 2.5% of the United State's GDP for three years. It is no surprise this did not create a massive amount of jobs or spur demand to the point that recovery would be exhaustive.
Here is the CBO's newest report on ARRA - http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/117xx/doc11706/08-24-ARRA.pdf
On November 02 2010 14:36 IamTheWhiteGuy wrote:
What did we build with it? Approximately nothing. Where did the money go? Largely to large financial institutions..
ARRA =\= TARP, pic related.
![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/2lw2k1z.jpg)
$300 billion out of a $800 billion stimulus is tax cuts and Republican's heads explode. No surprise.
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[/QUOTE]
As for the midterm elections, if you vote teaparty, you're a fucking idiot and you're helping to destroy this country.
Otherwise, your republican / democrat vote should probably be decided on what you know (e.g. a vote for Matt Doheny would be a great way to put an asshole shill into congress AND simultaneously damage your state, whereas John McCain, though still pretty evil by most conventional measures, does pretty well by Arizona.[/QUOTE]
If you vote Democrat or Republican you're helping to destroy this country too.
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On November 02 2010 13:57 keV. wrote:
This is actually one of the most horrifying midterm elections in my life.
Aww, poor guy. From "Hope and Change" that resulted in more-of-the-same-supercharged, to Damn These Idiot Voters Because I Disagree With Them.
So much for a mandate: Obama and the Democrat Congress have done more to wake this country up than anything. Because sometimes, people have to actually see Big Government Statism firsthand, to recognize how horrifying it is. So thanks, lefties, for over-exposing your ideology that reminded Americans of precisely what they do not want -- no matter how hard you try to force it down their throats.
As for me, I eagerly anticipate voting today...with a Slurpee and a smile (inside joke).
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On November 02 2010 19:23 Losticus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 13:57 keV. wrote:
This is actually one of the most horrifying midterm elections in my life. Aww, poor guy. From "Hope and Change" that resulted in more-of-the-same-supercharged, to Damn These Idiot Voters Because I Disagree With Them. So much for a mandate: Obama and the Democrat Congress have done more to wake this country up than anything. Because sometimes, people have to actually see Big Government Statism firsthand, to recognize how horrifying it is. So thanks, lefties, for over-exposing your ideology that reminded Americans of precisely what they do not want -- no matter how hard you try to force it down their throats. As for me, I eagerly anticipate voting today...with a Slurpee and a smile (inside joke).
Quick; someone count the number of talking points!
I'll be damned, incumbents lose during midterms and poor economic conditions, who would have guessed?
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tipping 39 seats should be a challenge but from what i've seen on the news here in the UK and from watching Bill Maher and other US political talk shows its quite a likely outcome.
Also tipping 10 seats in the senate.... well thats not hard, it happens all the time, all over the world.
I personally hope for the democrats to stay in charge, as from an outside perspective...... Democrats are by far the lesser of two evils. The republican party is piece by piece becoming the Tea Party..... and that scares me.... those nut jobs in power would spell doom for any country that doesn't have a predominantly white, christian population. I think even more so than when Bush the younger had his hands on the nuclear launch codes.
I don't know why Americans are so afraid of socialism..... we have socialised medicine and guess what.... i've never had to live with an illness or medical problem because i couldn't afford treatment..... i pay a small amount in tax and get a hell of a lot back.
On the statue of liberty it says "give me your hungry, your poor" hate to tell you this ladies and gents.... but thats a socialist statement right there. America is supposed to be the dream, the place you can go to live a better life...... not a place driven by fear of change, fear of people, and the opportunity to be shot at any point during your day.
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EPT
