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How's the free market to blame if a municipal institution doesn't do what you want?
These firefighters were municipal... tax-paid.
If they weren't, I'd argue they would love to take any "I'll pay whatever it takes" calls as possible. But it's precisely because they're subsidized that they generally service less.
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On October 05 2010 19:40 Loanshark wrote:
lol reminds me of that story of some rich Roman dude who had all the teh slaves with buckets and whenever there was a fire he would get over there and wouldn't put out the fire unless the owner paid up. Oh and he also made the neighbors pay up too as their homes were in danger as well. Only difference is, this Roman guy actually did eventually put out the fires when the owners offered a good price and had paid.
Eventually he was killed when some badder dudes poured molten silver down his throat to satisfy his "lust for money".
Actually the Roman Fire Brigade purchased all the houses surrounding the fire because their value suddenly plummeted as they were about to be destroyed, they then put out the fire and sold the houses to make a huge profit.
I think you might be thinking of the Spanish governor that was killed by the Jivaro tribe by having molten gold poured down his throat till his bowels burst open, or maybe it happened to both these people.
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On October 05 2010 19:23 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:18 D10 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:12 jello_biafra wrote:On October 05 2010 19:08 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On October 05 2010 18:47 Monsen wrote:
America, fuck yeah!
Wouldn't have happened under evil, satanic SOCIALISM btw.
I'm sure that family is glad to have the FREEDOM not to pay the firefighters. Remind me how Germany's National Socialist Movement improved society again. I think that one house burning down is the most of a non-socialist societies worries. No one is mentioning NATIONAL Socialism here, that's an entirely different thing, European countries operate on a mixture of capitalism and socialism (meaning they run the same capitalist economy but the government provides more services than in the US). Over here fire brigades are a "free" service (some of your tax money goes towards them), you don't have to pay any monthly fee or give them any money at all if they save your house from burning down, just the same way that you don't have to pay for the police or ambulance services. I gotta admit I was awed by the fact the US has this kind of mechanism to pay for firefighters, hehe, US, always givin us lulz Residents of cities are taxed to fund their local fire dept. he was not within the city boundaries and did not have to pay the local tax. he was still, however, given the chance to pay for the service and chose not to.
This is AMAZING, I cant even put together words to describe how mindblowingly awesome this is, I mean you need to account for the fact that theres a lot of stupid people over there, this system is bound to make someone somewhere watch their house burn with firefighters mocking them for being cheap.
But its a necessary evil, for every idiot crying over his burning house and the firefighters inaction you will get a whole town paying their tax normally as they always did .... wait what?
Yep, making a point with someones burning house and playing "sorry cant do" is a childrens game, I hope he ends up suing the town in your legal system where anyone can sue anyone over anything and wins millions of dollars so he can rebuild his life and forget about this sad episode.
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Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something...
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On October 05 2010 19:48 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:23 mahnini wrote:On October 05 2010 19:18 D10 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:12 jello_biafra wrote:On October 05 2010 19:08 SnK-Arcbound wrote:On October 05 2010 18:47 Monsen wrote:
America, fuck yeah!
Wouldn't have happened under evil, satanic SOCIALISM btw.
I'm sure that family is glad to have the FREEDOM not to pay the firefighters. Remind me how Germany's National Socialist Movement improved society again. I think that one house burning down is the most of a non-socialist societies worries. No one is mentioning NATIONAL Socialism here, that's an entirely different thing, European countries operate on a mixture of capitalism and socialism (meaning they run the same capitalist economy but the government provides more services than in the US). Over here fire brigades are a "free" service (some of your tax money goes towards them), you don't have to pay any monthly fee or give them any money at all if they save your house from burning down, just the same way that you don't have to pay for the police or ambulance services. I gotta admit I was awed by the fact the US has this kind of mechanism to pay for firefighters, hehe, US, always givin us lulz Residents of cities are taxed to fund their local fire dept. he was not within the city boundaries and did not have to pay the local tax. he was still, however, given the chance to pay for the service and chose not to. This is AMAZING, I cant even put together words to describe how mindblowingly awesome this is, I mean you need to account for the fact that theres a lot of stupid people over there, this system is bound to make someone somewhere watch their house burn with firefighters mocking them for being cheap. But its a necessary evil, for every idiot crying over his burning house and the firefighters inaction you will get a whole town paying their tax normally as they always did .... wait what?Yep, making a point with someones burning house and playing "sorry cant do" is a childrens game, I hope he ends up suing the town in your legal system where anyone can sue anyone over anything and wins millions of dollars so he can rebuild his life and forget about this sad episode.
evidently not, as this guys house burned down ;o
quick google search would help you realize this isnt a standalone incident
Even if the town did pay all their fees except for thsi one person, if firefighters had let his house nto burn down, the town would suddenly stop paying their fees, there's no incentive to do so.
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On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no
Were you in the military?
Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)?
Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain.
Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well.
On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something...
They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment.
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On October 05 2010 19:53 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no Were you in the military? Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)? Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain. Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well. Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something... They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment.
you do realize if your boss tells you to do something, you don't follow his orders, you are fired.
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Whether one thinks that firefighting should be a public service or not, it seems rather clear to me that this city is doing it wrong.
Whatever the city thinks it is selling, it sure is no insurance. The purpose of an insurance is to protect the customer from financial risk, not grant/deny him access to the service itself. Imagine an optional health insurance system, where doctors are only allowed to treat patients which pay insurance fees, but not patients who want to pay themselves. Exactly what kind of "option" would that be?
This seems to be rather comparable to a subscription based service. But a subscription based service with a flat fee irrespective of risk or direct cost for a "virtual" service which may very well never be provided? Seriously?
Any community/city/county/country who voluntarily organizes its firefighting like this should damn well have to pay up for any damages to the property of people who don't want to participate in this nonsense.
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On October 05 2010 18:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 18:44 Sanguinarius wrote:
That was really fucking stupid by the fire department. Makes me angry that the government would condone this. Even if some idiot doesn't pay 75$ its really poor form to not help when you have the chance to help. On my ER month, I saw plenty of patients who cannot pay their full bill or only pay part of their bill. Do we not treat them??
I guess we wont once the government finishes the healthcare takeover. Sweet, less work for me! Was that really fucking stupid of the fire department or of the homeowner for not paying the fucking fee?
The fire department. As I said. Do I not take care of patients who don't pay? "Oh, I am sorry, you just lost 3 liters of blood in a car crash. Looks like you dont pay your government fee.... guess we will just let you die.
Yeah, that makes alot of sense :-/
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On October 05 2010 20:01 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:53 spinesheath wrote:On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no Were you in the military? Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)? Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain. Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well. On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something... They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment. you do realize if your boss tells you to do something, you don't follow his orders, you are fired.
so you're saying that everything is ok as long as your boss tells you to? Policy or not, law or not, firefighters not helping people save their home is wrong. By their logic policemen shouldn't help homeless people that are assaulted right in front of them because they don't pay for the "service".
Sure the family should've paid but there are other ways, e.g. just give them a bill over 5000$. Thats still about 65 years of the annual amount they'd had to pay
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On October 05 2010 19:41 ey215 wrote:
The property was not in city limits.
Yeah,I think we also shouldn't take care of patient who are helicoptered in - cause they weren't in city limits.
Unless we can take their organs after they pass away and give it to my own city's residents.... Let me ask you, does that make sense?
The answer is No. Its stupid. Just like refusing to fight a fire.
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This is so stupid that I have no words for it. On some level I can understand the principals, but when it comes to this its just weird. Why people have to pay to have people save their houses from fire is the real stupid thing here. Some things should be left up to the government.
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On October 05 2010 19:53 spinesheath wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no Were you in the military? Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)? Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain. Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well. Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something... They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment.
Yes, I was and Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice states:
Any person subject to this chapter who—
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
So was the order to not respond to the 911 call, or the order to save the neighbor's yard but not the house a lawful order? I would argue as there is no one in the house in danger it is in fact, a lawful order and the courts would likely agree.
Notice I quoted the whole thing, I could have skimped but I think section three brings up an interesting conversation as to whether or not it was dereliction of duty.
I know you say, "Who the fuck cares about orders". In any organization where you are putting your life at risk chain of command matters. In a burning warehouse when an order to pull out comes the firefighters need to respond unquestioning to prevent further loss of life. It's there for the protection of the firefighters as well as people in the community.
Look, I agree the fire should have been put out but the blame shouldn't be on the everyday firefighters there just doing their job. The blame lies with their superiors that put the policy in place and chose not to ignore it in this instance. It also falls at the feet of the property owner who didn't pay the fee. A fee which is really a tax, but people don't like the word "tax" so they don't use it.
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Deal with the fire, then charge him. Dont show up and just stand there doing nothing while the house burns down. Being a firefighter shouldnt be all about the money. They disrespect their profession as well as thier fellow firefighters by doing what they did. Thats enough reason to get fired imo.
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On October 05 2010 20:18 xlep wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:01 HeavOnEarth wrote:On October 05 2010 19:53 spinesheath wrote:On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no Were you in the military? Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)? Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain. Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well. On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something... They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment. you do realize if your boss tells you to do something, you don't follow his orders, you are fired.
so you're saying that everything is ok as long as your boss tells you to? Policy or not, law or not, firefighters not helping people save their home is wrong. By their logic policemen shouldn't help homeless people that are assaulted right in front of them because they don't pay for the "service". Sure the family should've paid but there are other ways, e.g. just give them a bill over 5000$. Thats still about 65 years of the annual amount they'd had to pay
-im saying its your job or this mans house, who would choose the latter?
-Then everyone would opt for the 5,000$ bill and there are suddenly no more firefighters.
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On October 05 2010 20:01 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:53 spinesheath wrote:On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no Were you in the military? Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)? Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain. Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well. On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something... They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment. you do realize if your boss tells you to do something, you don't follow his orders, you are fired.
You do realize that me being fired is much less of a problem than this guy losing his home? Besides I would make a call to court about this issue then, and unless the system isn't totally retarded (questionable in the US it seems) I would keep my job. I would also be sure to have the support of the man whose house I saved, and most likely media and public too. "firefighter fired for fighting fire", yeah sounds funny.
I am assuming that at least half those firefighters are going to church every now and then (US, rural area?). While I don't consider myself a christian, I do appreciate most of the morals/ethics that go with it. One of the important ones is to help those around you when in need. Unconditionally.
On October 05 2010 20:25 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:18 xlep wrote:On October 05 2010 20:01 HeavOnEarth wrote:On October 05 2010 19:53 spinesheath wrote:On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no Were you in the military? Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)? Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain. Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well. On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something... They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment. you do realize if your boss tells you to do something, you don't follow his orders, you are fired.
so you're saying that everything is ok as long as your boss tells you to? Policy or not, law or not, firefighters not helping people save their home is wrong. By their logic policemen shouldn't help homeless people that are assaulted right in front of them because they don't pay for the "service". Sure the family should've paid but there are other ways, e.g. just give them a bill over 5000$. Thats still about 65 years of the annual amount they'd had to pay -im saying its your job or this mans house, who would choose the latter? -Then everyone would opt for the 5,000$ bill and there are suddenly no more firefighters.
- I would. Without hesitation.
- Wrong. There are plenty of optional insurances available for example against lightning damage etc. At least here in Germany many people prefer to pay a low fee for the insurance than running the risk of losing a huge sum of money because of bad luck.
Besides, there always is the option of a mandatory fee included in taxes. Not exactly what straight up egocentric capitalists ("I am too good to be struck by fate/ever need any help") prefer, but if you have a social aspect to your system then that's perfectly fine.
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That is truly something disgraceful. As much as I like to rag on the stretcher fetchers, they still have a duty to do. Paramedics and Firefighters don't get paid great money, I would say Police too but they make substantially more here than us two. I'm not saying it's about money, quite the opposite. I didn't become a Paramedic to make the big dollars, it's not going to happen. Most of the Firefighters I know are in the same boat, they didn't become Firefighters to make a lot of money, we do it because we want to help people and that thought of helping people takes a huge slap in the face here.. Ouch.
On a side note, here is how we joke here:
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On October 05 2010 20:35 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 20:01 HeavOnEarth wrote:On October 05 2010 19:53 spinesheath wrote:On October 05 2010 19:26 ey215 wrote:On October 05 2010 19:04 goldfishs wrote:
"Nobody is blaming the fire fighters, blame the management they are just doing their jobs" BULLOCKS! they can't roll over there, put out the fire next door and leave and expect us to accept that. Maybe, and I mean maybe if they hadn't pulled out at all. I would had accepted that because there is consequenses for pulling out against orders and it might be next to impossible for one man to rally them. But at the scene ready to go and they just leave?
I've always been against hanging people out but if anyone those firemen desserves it. They ruined a familys life for 75 dollars. I'm sorry, this is where I draw the line. The firefighters were following orders, there is a chain of command for a reason, and property damage isn't enough to countermand an order like that. I have no doubt that if there was anyone inside they would have gone in after them. There wasn't because it took two hours for the fire to spread from the barrels (which I'm sure didn't spontaneously combust) to the house. Hell, the whole thing would have been solved if the fire fighters had been allowed to go out and put out the fire before it reached the neighbor's field in the first place. House saved, neighbor's field never caught fire, end of story. Granted, if the homeowner had paid the fee then there wouldn't be this issue in the first place either. The fault lies entirely at the feet of the county government, their policy (law really) is that the municipalities in the county provide fire services and if the people in the non incorporated portions of the county want them they need to pay a $75 fee. A fee that city residents pay through taxes. This should have been taken years ago (the news report states another incident in 2008) but the county commissioner's did not act. Not surprisingly, there is now a push for a county wide fire tax to put this issue to bed. Now, I'm a firm get the government out of our lives type but government's exist for a few reasons and public safety is one of them. This is something the taxpayers should have to pay for and hopefully will in the future in this county. Should this house have burned down? No. Is it the fault of the Fire Fighters? Hell no Were you in the military? Those firefighters had the knowledge and resources to reliably save this house. Who the fuck cares about orders if it is to basically save the future of a that guy (or his whole family, not sure is he has one)? Just because you are ordered this or that you should never stop using your own brain. Sure the whole system is crappy, but those firefighters themselves certainly are guilty as well. On October 05 2010 19:48 Manit0u wrote:Oh man, whatever happened to work ethics? I mean, I've always thought that firefighters are kind of like doctors, willing to help others no matter what, having the calling or something... They are just like doctors in the US. At least from what you hear about it, no money = no medical treatment. you do realize if your boss tells you to do something, you don't follow his orders, you are fired. You do realize that me being fired is much less of a problem than this guy losing his home? Besides I would make a call to court about this issue then, and unless the system isn't totally retarded (questionable in the US it seems) I would keep my job. I would also be sure to have the support of the man whose house I saved, and most likely media and public too. "firefighter fired for fighting fire", yeah sounds funny. I am assuming that at least half those firefighters are going to church every now and then (US, rural area?). While I don't consider myself a christian, I do appreciate most of the morals/ethics that go with it. One of the important ones is to help those around you when in need. Unconditionally.
not everyone has the financial stability to lose their job, and instead of looking for a new job, spend time and money to fight for your old job back
your argument about calling court, etc. to get it back is admirable, but in the end its a risk(you make it sound like success is guaranteed) most people don't want/ can't take.
I know nothing about the US court system, so i'll leave it at that.
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You will not getting fired for this. If training a firefighter is this expensive you will get only a warning.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images6.cpcache.com/product_zoom/181627766v1_225x225_Front_padToSquare-true.jpg)
