EPTWhat pisses most people off is that this is being actively (and poorly) covered up in the name of "winning hearts and minds".
US Army: Soldiers killed Afghans for sport - Page 17
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
What pisses most people off is that this is being actively (and poorly) covered up in the name of "winning hearts and minds". | ||
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DX Raider
United States32 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
If the grunts weren't put in an environment that breeds the mentality, and were sent to mental health professionals for getting like that, instead of getting promotions for "having the right attitude", it would help immensely. Yes, the individual fault is on the people who commit the atrocity, but the people who don't do their jobs as leaders and get them therapy, but instead encourage the mindset that causes the problem should be treated as accomplices. Edit: intolerance.. hatred.. i don't see anything but intolerance and hatred in this thread. So stop whining about it. You think people should be more tolerant towards murder? Let's look at cause and effect. Kill an enemy combatant = not murder. Kill an enemy civilian = murder. One of these breeds intolerance, for an action. Granted, a lot of people are focusing their ire horribly, but that doesn't mean the emotion behind the reaction isn't reasonable. Their aim just sucks. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
This story, however, is a direct consequence of the Army lessening its standards for recruitment during the dog-years of 2005-2008. Just about every recruiting period failed to meet their required goals. In response, the JCOS did two things. One was being the "stop-loss" orders, in which soldiers on rest and refit could be ordered back to the front in Iraq and Afghanistan. The second, and much more important, was the relaxing of standards to allow just about anyone into the Army. Beforehand, you needed to pass several physical and mental tests before being recruited into the Army. During those dog-years though, the Army did away with most of these requirements. Yes, this soldier was a bad apple, but the relaxation of requirements is what allowed these bad apples to fester. By and large, the US army is a very professional outfit. Even though I have major qualms about US foreign policy and agenda, I will almost never berate the US army because it is one of the few fighting forces out there that are actually quite professional. | ||
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malady
United States600 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:18 Offhand wrote: ^ The army is primarily staffed by those without any other decent financial options and/or those with that whole "God and country" crazy complex. The grunts make up the bulk of the army so shit like this isn't exactly unexpected. What pisses most people off is that this is being actively (and poorly) covered up in the name of "winning hearts and minds". couldn't have said any better the army is mostly comprised of people trying to escape there shitty life that said being put into a war situation only furthers mental stress and can create someone to go crazy i dont doubt that | ||
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Whizon
Netherlands64 Posts
I think it's pointless to say stuff like "they should be punished". Punishment may seem obvious on the one hand, but does not solve anything on the other hand. But acts like these are too gruesome anyway, so rational thinking seems hard by default on such a subject. It all comes down to a saying I tend to embrace more and more when stumbling upon stupid stuff like this: "make love, not war". And this comes from someone who never smoked weed, nor hugged a tree in actual life for 27 years in a row now. Crap went down, horrible stuff happened. Really nothing good can be said about that in any way. Should we just move on? I don't believe so. But rejudging the situation over and over again isn't going to contribute a single part of a constructive solution in any way. A basic study of prison life and/or punishment will show the huge ineffectiveness of said systems. What else is there to do? In a well advanced world no wars at all, but let's keep it more realistic. Professional help, such as psychiatrists for instance. Working well together with the US army to prevent/handle with stuff like this. That's one thing that comes to mind. And yes, it does not "feel" good after seeing stuff like this. But that's the one thing that's not going to help getting rid of horrible situations like this, feeling. Demanding justice by killing/brutalizing/whatevering the "suspects" doesn't help in any single way. It's not getting the victims magically undamaged, and/or peace restored. It leaves a shitty feeling for everyone anyway. And it screams we want to go back instead of forth regarding development of the human species. "Man smash other man 'cause he smash other man". Welcome back to the stone age. So instead why not ask questions that help prevent this kind of stuff in the (near) future? Looking at the history of man kind I'd say this "is the time to move forth" or something like that. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
Look down upon the people who committed the crimes, not the people who share their occupation and sacrifice. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
I dislike generalizations but numbers don't lie. The military is comprised primarily of middle-class WASPs with no where else to go. These are people who can't get into a college or have a decent job out of highschool. | ||
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Souljah
United States423 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:36 Stoids wrote: Another thread on TL full of self-hating Americans who comfortably sit behind their keyboards while bashing the people who protect this country. There are plenty of crazy people in every segment of society. I dislike being generalized as a soon-to-be killer due to the fact that I play video games. However I can tolerate that, seeing as though I really don't sacrifice anything to be that. When you generalize and bash American troops though, then you are crossing a line. Look down upon the people who committed the crimes, not the people who share their occupation and sacrifice. Nobody is "protecting your country". Euro-American force in Irak and Afghanistan are invading armies, are there for wrong reason, and, as it has been proven many times, don't behave much better than their opponents. What's really easy and confortable is to say that theses guys were psychopaths and that the problem has nothing to do with the whole situation. Just watch Fox News, like 3 minutes, and you get a good picture of what is really fucked up in the first place, of where the violence originaly comes from. On March 29 2011 00:11 JingleHell wrote: 99th percentile on my Asvab, Army infantry for 4.5 years, medically retired now. Mind you, a whole lot of the US Army is pretty fucked up, but so are the political and tactical situations. The issues are a whole lot more complex than they get made out to be though. The vast majority of Combat Arms, the Infantry, Cav Scouts, and Tankers, aren't in the high IQ demographic. However, I don't think that's really the issue. The issue is the social groups they fall under. Now I'm perfectly aware this will raise a shit storm, but the fact is, the majority of those guys are Catholic or redneck Christians. It's combining the lesser education, the intolerant religious upbringing, and the "badass soldier on a mission" mentality that really causes the problems. The intolerance allows them to not question the things that should be questioned, breeding ignorant hatred, and then handing them a gun and saying "all these guys are bad guys". It doesn't take long before they really believe that ALL of them are bad guys. It doesn't help that you can't be sure, and half the time, due to politics, you can't do something about the ones where you are sure. Give ignorant, intolerant people guns, combat training, and a motive for hatred, spurred on by the common conflict, and it creates incidents like this. The US breeds intolerance in more places than the military, they're just the ones given an outlet. The problem goes deeper than the war crimes. Fix the intolerance, fix the ignorance, and fix the political climate, and maybe we can avoid a lot of this nonsense. That makes a lot of sense. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
The military is comprised primarily of middle-class WASPs with no where else to go. These are people who can't get into a college or have a decent job out of highschool. So is Teamliquid. Nobody is "protecting your country". Euro-American force in Irak and Afghanistan are invading armies, are there for wrong reason, and, as it has been proven many times, don't behave much better than their opponents. What's really easy and confortable is to say that theses guys were psychopaths and that the problem has nothing to do with the whole situation. Just watch Fox News, like 3 minutes, and you get a good picture of what is really fucked up in the first place, of where the violence originaly comes from. I would respond to this, but you're inability to form a coherent argument makes it difficult to do. It's disrespectful to soldiers as a whole to group them together with these crazy people. They have an occupation that grants a larger amount of respect than most jobs. Whether or not you agree with their presence has no bearing on if you should support the individuals. They have a duty to serve their country and continue to make sacrifices that allow me to live the life that I live. | ||
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Frightmare
46 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:42 Offhand wrote: Ths US military doesn't do anything to protect me. The troops are on the line of fire, but not for reasons that concern my safety, or the safety of any other non-military Americans for that matter. I dislike generalizations but numbers don't lie. The military is comprised primarily of middle-class WASPs with no where else to go. These are people who can't get into a college or have a decent job out of highschool. I'm speechless at how ignorant this is. Amazing. I'm not saying, what you're saying is statistically incorrect, but the way you said it was disgusting. Not everyone has a mommy and daddy that can foot their 40,000 $ per semester bill, or cosign for their student loans. It's called upward mobility, and the post 9/11 G.I. bill is a great way to move up. Seriously think for like 2 seconds before you say some ignorant shit next time. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:51 Stoids wrote: So is Teamliquid. I would respond to this, but you're inability to form a coherent argument makes it difficult to do. It's disrespectful to soldiers as a whole to group them together with these crazy people. They have an occupation that grants a larger amount of respect than most jobs. Whether or not you agree with their presence has no bearing on if you should support the individuals. They have a duty to serve their country and continue to make sacrifices that allow me to live the life that I live. I believe the saying is "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." Agree with the politicians or not, the Military needs to exist, and the people in it (aside from the nuts that need to be kicked out) are just doing another needed job. (Note: I say a military is needed in the same way I say Marxism doesn't work. Theoretically, in a perfect world, we could avoid needing military, but we don't live in one of those.) | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:54 Frightmare wrote: I'm speechless at how ignorant this is. Amazing. I'm not saying, what you're saying is statistically incorrect, but the way you said it was disgusting. Not everyone has a mommy and daddy that can foot their 40,000 $ per semester bill, or cosign for their student loans. It's called upward mobility, and the post 9/11 G.I. bill is a great way to move up. Seriously think for like 2 seconds before you say some ignorant shit next time. Yes, we live in a society where it's acceptable to trade violence for upward mobility. Think about that for a second. + Show Spoiler + The average soldier is capable of attending college without service, they are middle class after all and things like loans do exist. The majority aren't there because they have no other option (although those there purely for upward mobility are no more or less morally in the clear). Maybe military service is the only way you could attend a 40k/year high-end private school. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:36 Stoids wrote: Another thread on TL full of self-hating Americans who comfortably sit behind their keyboards while bashing the people who protect this country. There are plenty of crazy people in every segment of society. I dislike being generalized as a soon-to-be killer due to the fact that I play video games. However I can tolerate that, seeing as though I really don't sacrifice anything to be that. When you generalize and bash American troops though, then you are crossing a line. Look down upon the people who committed the crimes, not the people who share their occupation and sacrifice. -Your point that our mission in Afghanistan is protecting Americans is highly debatable. It could be argued that the last time US troops actually "defended" the US was in WW2. -Just because there are nutbags exist in every segment of society does not mean that their actions should be tolerated if they are avoidable. The shit that happened ,happened because our military is flawed in that a) we don't screen the nutbags out in the first place, b) superior officers may condone/encourage this kind of behavior, and c) reports are covered up which protects perpetrators and makes it easier for things to happen again. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:55 Offhand wrote: Yes, we live in a society where it's acceptable to trade violence for upward mobility. Think about that for a second. I'm sure you thought of this statement and high fived yourself in the mirror for how insanely deep and thoughtful it was. I'm not sure the point you were trying to make, but it was in no way compelling. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:55 Offhand wrote: Yes, we live in a society where it's acceptable to trade violence for upward mobility. Think about that for a second. Gee, that's convenient. You must not need to give yourself a leg up in the world, because you're already standing on everyone below you. But hey, whatever, pay your taxes, and you pay for my $1000/weekly medication, and my disability check, because I'm medically retired, and planning to enjoy my GI Bill. So it worked, and apparently our society DOES support it, including you, whether you like it or not. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
Just because there are nutbags exist in every segment of society does not mean that their actions should be tolerated if they are avoidable. The shit that happened ,happened because our military is flawed in that a) we don't screen the nutbags out in the first place, b) superior officers may condone/encourage this kind of behavior, and c) reports are covered up which protects perpetrators and makes it easier for things to happen again. I'm fine with arguing at this angle. I do not enjoy reading generalized hatred directed at American troops though. It insults current and former soldiers who sacrificed their temporarily comfortable life to help our country. Like I said earlier, I am not arguing their reasons for being there; rather, I am supporting them as individuals whose inherent job description is to protect my country. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On March 29 2011 01:00 JingleHell wrote: Gee, that's convenient. You must not need to give yourself a leg up in the world, because you're already standing on everyone below you. But hey, whatever, pay your taxes, and you pay for my $1000/weekly medication, and my disability check, because I'm medically retired, and planning to enjoy my GI Bill. So it worked, and apparently our society DOES support it, including you, whether you like it or not. I agree, there's really nothing I can do to stop it. Perhaps all that cash and benefits help you sleep at night. I'll take my student loans and moral superiority instead. The solution is of course to kill military spending and make soldiers live by the same rules as the rest of civilization. But who the fuck am I kidding, that's not going to happen anytime soon. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2983 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:36 Stoids wrote: Another thread on TL full of self-hating Americans who comfortably sit behind their keyboards while bashing the people who protect this country. There are plenty of crazy people in every segment of society. I dislike being generalized as a soon-to-be killer due to the fact that I play video games. However I can tolerate that, seeing as though I really don't sacrifice anything to be that. When you generalize and bash American troops though, then you are crossing a line. Look down upon the people who committed the crimes, not the people who share their occupation and sacrifice. I think if the US governement didn't label it's military "pure and courageous angels fighting for freedom and peace" the standards wouldn't be so high. Everybody with half a brain knows the was has been done in Abu Grahib for ex. has been done (and worse) by any kind of army in a war environnement. The US is extending it's influence over the world to the expense of it's ennemies like any country would do but they refuse to call a cat a cat. And stop turning every american soldiers into a martyr, as far as I know these guys are either professionals or volunteers am I right ? And they are not defending the american land, they are occupying another country. Again, I'm not a rabid anti-US guy, I assume that my country would do the exact same thing if it was in the position the US is in. Just cut the "we're all good guys sacrifying solely for freedom and peace" BS. | ||
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