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I really appreciate all the posts by people actually who have actually served in a military whether it's America's or another country.
The civilians in countries currently occupied by the united states have been slaughtered like animals (or worse) quite often. The same goes for civilians in countries occupied by pretty much any other country. It amazes me that even after this sort of stuff surfaces, people still cling to their "our soldiers and society is more humane and 'good' than other societies of the past that have been in similar positions" mentality.
Because that mentality is correct. If you look at the numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan 60-70% or more of the civilians killed have died in terrorist attacks not American bombings or shootings.
It amazes me that people are so ignorant that they really think these kinds of moral equivalence arguments work, especially when they can't resist from using such intemperate language. It amazes me that people can cling to "Well some of your soldiers committed murder so I'm going to generalize that to the entire military and then to your society as well and condemn you" just because they are so emotionally charged about it they can't think straight.
And someone way earlier said that instances of US killing civilians is just like the Rape of Nanking, you've obviously never read what the Japanese actually did in Nanking, how it happened, etc.
America is one of the few countries in history to prosecute its own soldiers for war crimes they've committed, and it is while the conflict is on going! Unheard of.
Americans have died in Afghanistan and Iraq because of engagement and firepower limitation rules intended to protect civilians from being hurt.
The situation of your country depends of its ability to maintain its superiority. Every men who lives a good western life lives in a bubble allowed by the other's suffering. And it has always been that way. Even those who tried to impose the beautiful ideal of communism ended up by repeating the same scheme.
This is bullshit and I hope everyone reading it knows this. The West didn't become rich and powerful because we "oppressed" the rest of the world, we became rich and powerful because of the Industrial Revolution, which took place in our own countries, with resources we found in our own countries (America, France, Britain, Germany, etc.).
It's a totally twisted worldview to look at the economic situation of countries or individuals as zero-sum game; someone having something MUST mean someone somewhere else is being deprived of something DIRECTLY BECAUSE that first person has whatever they have. It's not true.
The West does not lead the good life because we've stolen the wealth from others. We lead the good life because we made it for ourselves here in our own country.
It wasn't the US that started World War II, which caused so much devastation that the US, almost the only untouched "great power" after the war and already the richest country on earth beforehand, couldn't help but become the dominant world economy afterward.
It wasn't our greedy capitalist pigs that put just huge deposits of iron in the northern Midwest, and oil in Texas and California and Alaska, or coal in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, etc., it wasn't plutocrats that gave us a million square miles or more of great agricultural land. It was there. We did the hard work to make it useful. We didn't go "oppress" some other country and steel mills and factories and farms started magically appearing in America as the result.
Unless of course you want to get all angry about what happened to the Native Americans. Of course a lot of it happened before there was an America, and it wasn't like the Indians didn't try to enslave or wipe each other out all the time, but it doesn't matter that population migration happens and when it does people get displaced, usually in not-nice ways, because America is wrong and evil and we'll just ignore all of history to say so.
User was warned for this post
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Soldiers are murderers.
Kurt Tucholsky '31. It was and will always be like that.
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I really hate these threads because the ignorance and biased anti american hate is always astounding and hard to not just lash out at people for being incredibly close minded and stupid.
The people who did this were wrong no way around it, but to lump every single person in the military in the same category of them is ridiculous, you have no idea what it is like and are in no position to look down on the people who serve and don't take part in this bull.
I honestly wish mods would just close these threads because nothing comes out of it but hate from people who can only see things in black and white.
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I just hope the perpetrators get the punishment they deserve. In past wars, a lot of these murderers seems to get reduce sentence or early release. Always piss me off when justice is not serve
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Kurt Tucholsky '31. It was and will always be like that.
I wonder if he might have had a different opinion if he'd lived long enough to see 1939-1945. Nothing like a guy building gas chambers and trying to take over the world to open the possibility in your mind that soldiers might be necessary and what they do necessary as well sometimes.
Unfortunately probably not, when people get dense like about a topic nothing really ever gets through.
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On March 29 2011 03:02 DeepElemBlues wrote:I really appreciate all the posts by people actually who have actually served in a military whether it's America's or another country. Show nested quote +The civilians in countries currently occupied by the united states have been slaughtered like animals (or worse) quite often. The same goes for civilians in countries occupied by pretty much any other country. It amazes me that even after this sort of stuff surfaces, people still cling to their "our soldiers and society is more humane and 'good' than other societies of the past that have been in similar positions" mentality. Because that mentality is correct. If you look at the numbers in Iraq and Afghanistan 60-70% or more of the civilians killed have died in terrorist attacks not American bombings or shootings. It amazes me that people are so ignorant that they really think these kinds of moral equivalence arguments work, especially when they can't resist from using such intemperate language. It amazes me that people can cling to "Well some of your soldiers committed murder so I'm going to generalize that to the entire military and then to your society as well and condemn you" just because they are so emotionally charged about it they can't think straight. And someone way earlier said that instances of US killing civilians is just like the Rape of Nanking, you've obviously never read what the Japanese actually did in Nanking, how it happened, etc. America is one of the few countries in history to prosecute its own soldiers for war crimes they've committed, and it is while the conflict is on going! Unheard of. Americans have died in Afghanistan and Iraq because of engagement and firepower limitation rules intended to protect civilians from being hurt. Show nested quote +The situation of your country depends of its ability to maintain its superiority. Every men who lives a good western life lives in a bubble allowed by the other's suffering. And it has always been that way. Even those who tried to impose the beautiful ideal of communism ended up by repeating the same scheme. This is bullshit and I hope everyone reading it knows this. The West didn't become rich and powerful because we "oppressed" the rest of the world, we became rich and powerful because of the Industrial Revolution, which took place in our own countries, with resources we found in our own countries (America, France, Britain, Germany, etc.). It's a totally twisted worldview to look at the economic situation of countries or individuals as zero-sum game; someone having something MUST mean someone somewhere else is being deprived of something DIRECTLY BECAUSE that first person has whatever they have. It's not true. The West does not lead the good life because we've stolen the wealth from others. We lead the good life because we made it for ourselves here in our own country. It wasn't the US that started World War II, which caused so much devastation that the US, almost the only untouched "great power" after the war and already the richest country on earth beforehand, couldn't help but become the dominant world economy afterward. It wasn't our greedy capitalist pigs that put just huge deposits of iron in the northern Midwest, and oil in Texas and California and Alaska, or coal in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, etc., it wasn't plutocrats that gave us a million square miles or more of great agricultural land. It was there. We did the hard work to make it useful. We didn't go "oppress" some other country and steel mills and factories and farms started magically appearing in America as the result. Unless of course you want to get all angry about what happened to the Native Americans. Of course a lot of it happened before there was an America, and it wasn't like the Indians didn't try to enslave or wipe each other out all the time, but it doesn't matter that population migration happens and when it does people get displaced, usually in not-nice ways, because America is wrong and evil and we'll just ignore all of history to say so.
Good post, thank you
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On March 29 2011 02:47 419 wrote:
You benefit just as much, or even more, from ~imperialism and shedding of blood~ as we do (that is, assuming your location is accurate).
Oh I know, don't get me wrong. I'm a foreigner so I have a really strong conscience of how the west in general is bubble of peace and wealth.
On March 29 2011 03:02 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +The situation of your country depends of its ability to maintain its superiority. Every men who lives a good western life lives in a bubble allowed by the other's suffering. And it has always been that way. Even those who tried to impose the beautiful ideal of communism ended up by repeating the same scheme. This is bullshit and I hope everyone reading it knows this. The West didn't become rich and powerful because we "oppressed" the rest of the world, we became rich and powerful because of the Industrial Revolution, which took place in our own countries, with resources we found in our own countries (America, France, Britain, Germany, etc.). It's a totally twisted worldview to look at the economic situation of countries or individuals as zero-sum game; someone having something MUST mean someone somewhere else is being deprived of something DIRECTLY BECAUSE that first person has whatever they have. It's not true. The West does not lead the good life because we've stolen the wealth from others. We lead the good life because we made it for ourselves here in our own country.
What was the Industrial revolution? Oh right, strikes that ended in mass murder, workers being exploited to death, dangerous and hard working conditions wich led to mental disorders, stress, death, etc.
What was the previous boost? Oh right, colonies. Enslaving foreign countries to obtain their ressources at the lowest price, giving very little in return (when giving anything, take the example of Congo). America was a colony by the way, and it grew to be a great country when... Europe was destroyed to pieces by WW2! It wasn't hard work that made America what it is today. Countries never "hard worked" their way to history. In fact, history is made of wars.
And I'm not accusing the west, that's just how it works. The nobles own everything while commoners - "belongings" of their lord - struggle to survive, working classes oppressed by the bourgeoisie, colonialism, conquests, imperialism.
I just ate tasty chinese food, but that's because that's made by a bunch of illegal immigrants who'll do it for nothing. I could go there to give them some cash, hell I don't really need a new shirt, but I won't. Because I don't care that much.
But at least I'll never say that "oh noez, the world is being cruel with them, someone do something!". At least I admit that I just don't care about them. I somehow care about starving people so I give 20€ per month to charity even though I'm just 19. But I don't care that much so I won't go to Africa to play being a superhero.
You CAN always do something, so if you're not doing anything it's YOUR FAULT. You can protest, you can donate, you can work, you can spread the word, etc, etc.
You can bitch about wars but if you're still giving your money to the government and not expressing your opinion then you're just being a whiny kid.
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Im a whiny kid too
User was warned for this post
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Last time I checked I chill with friends and smoke up all the time. I don't go killing people. I'm not even aggressive. Don't make excuses for these sick murderers they are the reason mankind is becoming a mindless killer.
Also, I know there are a lot people on these forums who are in the U.S army here, and are offended by the posts that people have been making. I understand what you guys have been doing but really the higher-ups should at least try to control their inferiors. Don't defend these serial killers if you want to be respected.
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On March 29 2011 04:00 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
Last time I checked I chill with friends and smoke up all the time. I don't go killing people. I'm not even aggressive. Don't make excuses for these sick murderers they are the reason mankind is becoming a mindless killer.
Also, I know there are a lot people on these forums who are in the U.S army here, and are offended by the posts that people have been making. I understand what you guys have been doing but really the higher-ups should at least try to control their inferiors. Don't defend these serial killers if you want to be respected.
you also aren't put through the stress and lifestyle of a soldier. someone who's seen death so many times their head isn't right... but that's the fault of the branch to keep people not in the right state of mind on the field... i'm not making excuses for them, i'm just saying - trust me, it's much easier to go insane in afghan than it is in your cupcake world where you get to see your family and friends everyday, do whatever you want, and the only murder you witness is on call of duty.
i'm in the military, i've been overseas, etc. etc. etc. and i'd really hope the acts of a few men don't jumble you're opinions of the entire military, because that's just quite silly. it would be like if i said TL is full of trolls because there are 1-2 here and there.... silly, right?...
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What was the Industrial revolution? Oh right, strikes that ended in mass murder, workers being exploited to death, dangerous and hard working conditions wich led to mental disorders, stress, death, etc.
Feudalism was better, right? Trade guilds and tenantry that kept most people in a nicer, gentler serfdom was better, right?
Look at where we are now. We wouldn't be here if we hadn't gone through the growing pains of what came before.
I'll remind you that mass murder, exploitation, dangerous and long working conditions, mass deportation to a far-off corner of the country, and outright starvation were all threats faced in much larger degree by the proletariat in the Soviet Union and other communist countries than they ever were even in the darkest hottest loudest dankest steel mill in the dirtiest smokiest city in America.
What was the previous boost? Oh right, colonies. Enslaving foreign countries to obtain their ressources at the lowest price, giving very little in return (when giving anything, take the example of Congo). America was a colony by the way, and it grew to be a great country when... Europe was destroyed to pieces by WW2! It wasn't hard work that made America what it is today. Countries never "hard worked" their way to history. In fact, history is made of wars.
And I'm not accusing the west, that's just how it works. The nobles own everything while commoners - "belongings" of their lord - struggle to survive, working classes oppressed by the bourgeoisie, colonialism, conquests, imperialism.
Marx was wrong, Marx was wrong, Marx was wrong! About a lot of stuff. Sorry.
Your analysis is simplistic; it ignores everything that doesn't fit into the box of historic materialism. That is one of the things Marx was wrong about.
Oh I know, don't get me wrong. I'm a foreigner so I have a really strong conscience of how the west in general is bubble of peace and wealth.
Yes, you do, which is good. Your conscience just isn't understanding correctly =)
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On March 29 2011 03:03 Perkins1752 wrote:Kurt Tucholsky '31. It was and will always be like that.
I think that's a vast oversimplification.
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Until you've walked in their shoes, you only have your opinion about what happened. According to this information, none of us were there when it happened. Therefore our opinions are irrelevant. We only have the part of the story that is being posted here. There could be a whole lot more going on.
Also I hate all this generalization crap. Just because on person who is representing a nation or a group of people fucks up or can't handle that burden doesn't mean that all people from that group or nation are fuck ups. Look at Hitler. I'm fairly certain that the average German is nothing like him and would not like to be compared to him one bit.
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On March 29 2011 05:12 dasset wrote:
awful picture
Wow. just wtf. I hate the minority of U.S. soldiers, and I hope they rot in hell.
On March 29 2011 05:29 Magic_Mike wrote:
Until you've walked in their shoes, you only have your opinion about what happened. According to this information, none of us were there when it happened. Therefore our opinions are irrelevant. We only have the part of the story that is being posted here. There could be a whole lot more going on.
no.......You can form an opinion. Killing people for no reason is awful, that's that.
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On March 29 2011 05:29 Magic_Mike wrote:
Until you've walked in their shoes, you only have your opinion about what happened. According to this information, none of us were there when it happened. Therefore our opinions are irrelevant. We only have the part of the story that is being posted here. There could be a whole lot more going on.
I'm sorry but I couldn't give less of a fuck about the circumstances surrounding it. What "other part of the story" could possibly make this more acceptable?
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On March 29 2011 05:29 Magic_Mike wrote:
Until you've walked in their shoes, you only have your opinion about what happened. According to this information, none of us were there when it happened. Therefore our opinions are irrelevant.
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Judges and juries are never present at the scenes of the crimes they must hear in court.
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On March 29 2011 03:02 DeepElemBlues wrote:
This is bullshit and I hope everyone reading it knows this. The West didn't become rich and powerful because we "oppressed" the rest of the world, we became rich and powerful because of the Industrial Revolution, which took place in our own countries, with resources we found in our own countries (America, France, Britain, Germany, etc.).
It's a totally twisted worldview to look at the economic situation of countries or individuals as zero-sum game; someone having something MUST mean someone somewhere else is being deprived of something DIRECTLY BECAUSE that first person has whatever they have. It's not true.
The West does not lead the good life because we've stolen the wealth from others. We lead the good life because we made it for ourselves here in our own country.
This could not really be any further off base, concessions to European and American powers were in place in most major middle eastern governments until well into the twentieth century (EDIT) and often actively suppressed the development of those countries. You literally could not possibly be more wrong.
On March 29 2011 03:02 DeepElemBlues wrote:
It wasn't the US that started World War II, which caused so much devastation that the US, almost the only untouched "great power" after the war and already the richest country on earth beforehand, couldn't help but become the dominant world economy afterward.
It wasn't our greedy capitalist pigs that put just huge deposits of iron in the northern Midwest, and oil in Texas and California and Alaska, or coal in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, etc., it wasn't plutocrats that gave us a million square miles or more of great agricultural land. It was there. We did the hard work to make it useful. We didn't go "oppress" some other country and steel mills and factories and farms started magically appearing in America as the result.
Unless of course you want to get all angry about what happened to the Native Americans. Of course a lot of it happened before there was an America, and it wasn't like the Indians didn't try to enslave or wipe each other out all the time, but it doesn't matter that population migration happens and when it does people get displaced, usually in not-nice ways, because America is wrong and evil and we'll just ignore all of history to say so.
You are also as wrong as you can possibly be about this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars
What fucking fairy tale world are you living in?
Take off the Rose Colored Glasses, they don't suit you
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I really hope there is only one "Kill Team". I've heard about it, but I haven't heard of multiple KTs.
Afghanistan+Iraq are a disaster, especially the latter. Since we had at least somewhat of an excuse for going into Afghanistan, I have been patient in hopes that there would be progress. Iraq is just moronic. We went in there because of reports of WMD? Thats such bs as we know now.
Just get the hell out of both countries. This is going to be just like Vietnam where we can't win and it only costs more and more lives to wear them down.
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Reading most of these statements makes me doubt that there is a God.
On Topic:
In my opinion the problem here is not that such things happen. It is more to the point that the people in charge obviously do not intend to prevent it from happening (same things coming to light for over 10 years now) nor do punish such actions to a noticable extend unless it goes public and even then it's more of an alibi than anything else.
The source of this mindset in case of the USA might be and correct me here if i'm wrong the following (it was explained to me like that by an employee of the US legal system):
All US laws are thought and created to regulate the interactions of US citizens among each other as well as the legal relationships of the USA with other countries.
Meaning: The subject of the legal system is not the human but the citizen. Therefor the US legal system does not know human rights.
This seems to misslead many of said citizens into thinking that there are no human rights.
Which of course opens the door into thinking that non US citizens are no humans which in turn would explain the way some individuals behave.
Some people will argue that i can't know that said soldiers has not been dealt with in time as these are internals of the military and therefor secret. To this i do respond that i find it really hard to believe when new cases are revealed on a six month basis.
For the 'In war bad things happen' argument:
How do you justify such a statement when you party started the conflict?
Following the same reasonable train of thought here that a few soldiers don't represent the whole of an entire army and therefor its country - the USA started the war in Afghanistan as not all Afghans are terrorists.
Even claiming that it would be justified because the vast majority of said country shelters terrorists (which is not even remotely true) doesn't hold up because it was the USA who made the uprise of the Taliban possible in the first place during the cold war (if you didn't know that i would strongly recommend reading up on it - same thing is true for Saddam Hussein by the way).
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NaPjS.jpg)
